Talk:Ma Xiaotian

Quotes about US bombing of Chinese embassy in Belgrade and NATO attack in Pakistan
In a meeting with US officials sometime just after the 2011 NATO attack in Pakistan, Chinese general Ma Xiaotian sarcastically remarked "Were you using the wrong maps again?", referring to the 1999 US bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, which the US blamed on faulty maps, but which China has always suspected was deliberate.

Now this is a brilliant remark, and I think we should include it. It provides a unique insight into the general.

The remark was made in an official meeting, and the 2011 incident was directly compared to one of the most sensitive events in US-China relations (US bombing of Chinese embassy), as the sources below seem to agree. It is a data point that indicates how China saw the event and relations with the US/NATO. Observers have commented on this remark, calling it "jibbing" and "priceless". I suggest we include it on this page. My earlier edit that added this quote was removed, hence this talk section.

Sources: https://jamestown.org/program/china-and-nato-grappling-with-beijings-hopes-and-fears/

https://web.archive.org/web/20121117053251/http://blog.gmfus.org/2012/05/23/seizing-opportunities-with-a-less-reserved-beijing/ (by Andrew Small, author of the definitive book on China-Pakistan relations)

http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com/2012/07/quote-of-day-mapping-lie.html We should include this remark on this page, as it adds to the readers' knowledge of Ma Xiaotian and his wit, sarcasm, and understanding of current affairs.

Honoredebalzac345 (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The remark was quoted by the Small, writing an article for the German Marshall Fund, and then picked up from that source by James Weitz writing for the Jamestown Foundation. Both used the quote to note that the state of China-NATO relations was still frosty in 2011 following the 1999 bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. While there is an argument to be made that Ma's remark merits inclusion in an appropriate article (possibly at China–United States relations since there is not a China–NATO relations article), with discussion of its significance in terms of the long-term rancor held by China over the Belgrade action, the simple retelling of the remark, with observations of its "cutting" or "jibing" nature, is not terribly helpful to understanding Ma. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In that case, would it help if I included more analysis from the sources and gave the context of China-US relations? I believe that we are not in much disagreement here. I was actually thinking of including more analysis, but thought that it would take away from the brilliance of the quote, which I believe stands or itself. Moreover readers can always read the sources and analysis for themselves. Honoredebalzac345 (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The remark is not really all that clever or brilliant, and unless placed in proper context, stands only as a "clever quip" but provides little insight into anything. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

We can agree to disagree on the level of brilliance or sarcasm displayed by the quote, but clearly multiple sources found it important enough to write about it. And our job is to just cite those sources. I believe that if I included a few lines of analysis from the cited sources about the then state of China-NATO/US relations, that would enable us to reach consensus. That would also put the quote in the proper context, so the need for readers to click on the links is further reduced. This applies to both Wiki pages. Honoredebalzac345 (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While I might agree that a discussion of the quote has a place on the 2011 NATO attack in Pakistan page, I believe including it here on this page would give the incident undue weight. It was, after all, a single tossed off remark; it was not the highlight of Ma's career. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In that case, I'll make the change in the 2011 NATO attack page, and we'll keep the discussion for this page for the future.

Moreover, I don't think we have to analyze or contextualize it too much, beyond a point. That's up to the reader to decide. If we overdo it, we risk OR and SYNTH. After all, you don't really know if the general felt rancor or anything else, thats just an assumption. We don't REALLY know. What best we can do is simply paraphrase what the sources themselves say, at most. Honoredebalzac345 (talk) 08:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We don't know; we can only report what the reliable sources tell us, and they tell us that his remark reflected longstanding rancor about the 1999 Belgrade incident. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)