Talk:Maad a Sinig Kumba Ndoffene Famak Joof

NPOV tag placed on this article without discussion by Halaqah
This editor User: Halaqah keeps putting tags on Serer people's related articles and sometimes without discussing them on the talk pages as they have done on this article as well as here  or. They were also the same person that put the tag on the Serer religion article. This person calls me a problem editor yet they have snaked their way through all Serer related articles, deleted sources I have cited and content as well as placing tags then make statements without backing them up with sources. Their issue with the Serer people is the Serer people's strong resistance against Islamisation. Any edit made about the Serer people's resisting islamisation in their history this person is view as anti islamic or biased. This template has been here for couple of days. I will give it 24 hours and if the editor does not argue their case on this talk page, I will remove the template. Tamsier (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * U can decide quickly if you want to pick up where you left off. You have been blocked for advocacy across many wiki articles. This article contains copy and pasted material for which you were already warned about. (same rules apply NPOV is NPOV )is one of them. The next time you disrupt wikipedia you risk being blocked indefinitely. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * We go by sources here. If you have prove please bring it here so people can examined it. And do refrain from talking like you are an Administrator. You are merely an editor like everybody else here. So do avoid using threatening language it is unprofessional and against Wiki's policy.   The point of starting this discussion page was for you to justify your npov tag which you have failed to do yet.  I think this discussion would be more fruitful if you justify your tag with alternative sources so that the general reader can examine them for themselves and any necessary adjustments can be made to the article in order to improve it. At the end of the day, that is what the npov template is there for, to improve articles and not just to be used at the drop of a hat because one does not like an editor, a race of people or their religion etc.  Personal feelings should be kept away from this.  Do justify your tag with sources. After all you placed it there for a reason. We all want to know why and examine your alternative sources. I have nothing else to add for now until I see something of value to this talk page. At the moment you have provided nothing but threats and an opinion, neither of which are in accordance with Wiki's policy. Tamsier (talk) 16:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I will warn you again against your tone and removing tags. "Removed unjustified tag by disruptive editor"If it happens again you will be reported.You can continue this style on wikipedia but you will find it very unsuccessful, very hard to escape clear quality standards. When you want to attract attention continue like this, this pages fails more than NPOV, so be happy with the one tag for now. The solution is to stop trying to fight me and fight the issues I have clearly identified and then that will be the end of the problem (as before), the minute it meets the standard then how can I complain? Keep posting your comments about me on other peoples page. Better work on fixing the issues.

QUESTIONS
 * Is the NPOV resolved? - No Then why did you remove the tags?
 * Is this article written in the correct tone? - No, then fix it.

So how am i disruptive when i have cited quality issues per wiki policy (I didnt write these rules). The funny thing is had you not removed the tag, i probably would not have bothered to come back and object. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 11:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

This is wikipedia not a personal account of events
This entire article fails the encyclopedic criteria, not to mention its size exceeds its notability. Here is an example of the problems which are common across the Serer articles. Can the person who added it please explain (before explaining anything else) why they have violated Wikipedia style WP:MOS and how will this issue be fixed? Also you see when you get red text, it means there is no link-- so then dont put a link.


 * The hymn is very clear about what happened on that day. However, to increase understanding, here is some background information: AND
 * The Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal who have tried for years to conceal the facts of history have also fabricated another account regarding the Battle of Fandane-Thioutioune. 
 * Needless to say that, the King of Sine was not willing to persuade his people to settle in a war zone

This is not the tone for a encyclopedia,but a children's book it is a NPOV violation as it is written from the perspective of ONE author personal advocacy. Solution STOP. look around at other editors contributions. do you see other articles with this tone?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 11:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Info which needs to be rewritten per NPOV and size and concise
WP:NOT + WP:NOTESSAY Opinions do not belong anywhere in Wikipedia it is not an opinionPediaIt should also be noted, another Muslims claim that, the incident "went on for a week" is very unlikely. See text below which is a wall of nonsense excessive and greater in size than major wars in history. Please see What Wikipedia is notWP:NOT:
 * Two months after Maba's followers were defeated by the Serer armies of Sine and Saloum, the Muslim jihadists entered Diakhao (then the capital of Sine)—this time with the Damel-Taign of Cayor and Baol (King of Cayor and Baol) Lat Jorr Ngoneh Latir Jobe. Lat Jorr who was the King of Baol and Cayor was formerly an Animist. He had a long grudge against the King of Sine Kumba Ndoffene Famak. When Lat Jorr was defeated and exiled by the French at The Battle of Loro (8 January 1864), he sought the help of his relative (uncle in Senegambian culture)Kumba Ndoffene Famak. Although Kumba Ndoffene Famak did offer him asylum as he had offered asylum to Lat Jorr's predecessor Chai Yassin Faal (Thié Yacine Fall) in 1857 who was also defeated and exiled after the Battle of Pouri, Lat Jorr wanted more from him, that is, for the King of Sine to give him some of his forces so that he can regain his throne. Kumba Ndoffene Famak was unable to do that because he was already engaged in a bitter struggle against the French in regards to the sovereignty of Joal which was part of his Kingdom. The disgruntled Lat Jorr therefore allied himself with Maba who promised to help him regain his throne as long as he converted to Islam. Lat Jorr was converted by Maba. Although his conversion is said to be more political than religious, as Lat Jorr himself reverted back to some Animist practice at times, he nevertheless tried to influence Maba to launch a jihad against the Kingdom of Sine.

It should be noted that, both Lat Jorr and Maba were using each other. Lat Jorr was looking for military support in order to regain his throne and Maba was willing to provide that assistance. Maba not only wanted Lat Jorr to convert, but he was also using Lat Jorr's army and Lat Jorr's experience against fighting the French, an asset to which Maba used for his benefit. In fact, Lat Jorr was one of his war strategist against the French when the French no longer had any use for him. As such, Kumba Ndoffene Famak was the only one who was willing to offer Lat Jorr a refuge with no strings attached just as he had done for Chai Yassin in 1857. After Lat Jorr had persuade Maba to launch a jihad in the Serer Kingdom of Sine, mostly due to his previous victories at Nioro du Rip and parts of Saloum, Maba finally mustered the courage to give the go ahead for the Muslim army to launch its jihads in the heart of the ultra Animist Serer Sine. According to some historians, they do not understand what Maba was thinking when he thought that he could penetrate Sine (the heart of Serer Religion). Martin Klein in Islam and Imperialism in Senegal described this in the following terms:


 * "For six years, Ma Bâ (Maba) avoided a direct confrontation with pagan Sine. The oral tradition explains that he had heard a prediction that he would die in Sine. It is more likely that he postponed a confrontation with Sine because he wanted to concentrate first on areas where he could fight alongside a local Moslem (Muslim) population. Then, in 1867, his strategy changed."(Klein p. 90)

Cheick Diouf described this sudden change of strategy as nothing more than "a hallucination". The Serer people have defeated strongers armies such as the Almoravids (and their African converts who allied with them) for nearly a thousand years in order to preserve their ancient religion and way of life. As Elisa Daggs puts it:

""The Islamic religion which dominates Senegal today was carried from Mecca into North Africa after the seventh century by ... the Sahara by the Arabs and Arabized Berbers into Senegal. Only the powerful Serer tribes resisted conversion...."

However, instead of engaging in open battle, Maba and his Muslim army including Lat Jorr himself surprised the Serer civilians at ("Mbin o Ngoor" in (Serer-Sine language) also "Kerr Ngoor" in (Wolof language) (sometimes spelt "Keur Ngor"), commonly known by Senegambian Muslims as "Mbetaan Kerr Ngoor". Kumba Ndoffene Famak and his entourage were also later obliged to assist in the final phase of the ceremony of the circumcised young boys from Somb. This festival is one of the last phases of the initiates were they perform a dance in front of the King and the rest of the royal family, who in turn give them gifts for their courage. The funeral of Jaye Chass coincided with this ceremony and the King's Secretary was told by the King to inform the initiates he will meet them later at Mbin o Ngoor after the funeral at Dielem.  As, regards to the funeral, in Serer Religion, "funeral celebrations is a time of eating and drinking"—celebrating the life of the departed as they make their journey to the next life. Therefore, apart from attacking the innocent civilians, "Sine's defences would have been down." Third, the cowardly attack occurred on a Wednesday. In those days, Wednesday was the day people pay their personal taxes. Those who earn a wage paid their dues in cash (the French currency), those who don't but work in a farm goes to the farm to work and those in the army goes to the army's farm to work for their upkeep. Maba and Lat Jorr's army led by Lat Jorr himself, blocked the routes at Kerr Ngoor to hold the King, the dignitaries and civilians as prisoners. The initiation ceremony of the newly circumcised had to be cancelled after Lat Jorr and the Muslim army started burning villages and homes of innocent people. Lat Jorr and some of his men then discharged themselves and entered "Tioupane" the residence of the "Lingeer" (Queen)—where they took as prisoners some important personalities of the royal family—namely: the Royal Princess Lingeer Selbeh Ndoffene Joof (daughter of the King of Sine), Amad Sait Njie and Fatma Tioub. After what they have done, they then headed towards Saloum to rejoin Maba and deliver their royal prisoners whilst their men cause havoc at "Mbin o Ngoor" a village in the Kingdom of Sine. The Great Boukary N'goneh Joof (also "Boucar Ngoné Diouf") so titled and whose historical account is still narrated today was one of those that would sacrificed their lives to preserve the honour of sine. Kumba Ndoffene Famak having found out that the Muslims have set ablaze his capital Diakhao as well and other districts, he went straight to Nghapa—a district of Diakhao (a strategy as evident below, to gather reinforcement and protect the Country and his Capital from the Muslim advance and final conquest). As the Muslim's destruction continued, Lat Jorr and his army had now reached Fandane and were confronted by the King of Patar (Bour Patar), the prince Mbagne Ndiouk and the King of Thiougthioune—Amad N'goneh Joof (uncle of Kumba Ndoffene Famak) along with their armies. The Muslims retreated. Abdou Bâ (brother of Maba) came face to face with prince Ama Joof and was defeated by the prince forcing him to retreat. At Kerr Ngorr, Maba entered the scene killing The Great Boukary N'goneh Joof whom he mistaken for the King and then entered Diaglé with his army—the residence of the King of Mbouma (Bour Mbouma) and he was assassinated along with his bodyguards by the guns shot. When reinforcement finally arrived, Maba and his Muslim army retreated.

After the incident at Mbin o Ngoor, Maba Diakhou Bâ started spreading rumours to the colonialists that he had killed the King of Sine when in fact, he didn't it was Boukary N'goneh who martyred himself for King and Country and it was him, whom he killed not the King.

For the Muslims' audacity in entering his Kingdom, Kumba Ndoffene Famak wrote a letter to Maba. The following is a quote from that letter:


 * "This attack is undignified and what you say is untrue. If you came here for jihad, you should have said so before surprising us. Those who want to convert will convert and those who don't will fight to the end. If you are man, I challenge you to come back and meet the full army of Sine open battle".

Having written his letter, Boukary N'goneh's son (Semou Joof) overruled the King's messenger and nominated himself to deliver the letter by himself in the very hands of Maba. He arrived on a Friday the day of prayer in the night time. When he arrived, he pushed his way through the Muslim army and told Maba what he thought of him. He gulped some of the alcohol in his hand and spat it at the face of one of Maba's disciples closest to him. One of Maba's disciples cried out "we should kill him." Maba said "no! This person is a messenger, he came here to deliver a message. He should not be killed." He handed the note to Maba and added his own sentiment:


 * "Buur Sine asked me to give you this letter. What you have done is not dignified, if you want to go to war against me why don't you come back."

Before living, Semou asked "which one of you had killed my father?" Maba said nothing, it was Gumbo Gaye (one of Maba's elite squad) who volunteered himself, and said "it was I who killed him." Semou's response was "on the day of the battle, your blood will spill on the land of Sine." Gumbo Gaye response was "I will be the one wearing the red hat…" Semou asked for his father's sword which was stolen from the battle and given to Gumbo Gaye. Under the instruction of Maba, Gumbo Gaye, handed it back.

It should be noted that, some Muslims claim that:


 * "Maba did not go to Kerr Ngoor, it was the Muslim army and Lat Jorr who surprised the Serers at Kerr Ngoor…"

One would be forgiven for believing Maba himself did not accompany his forces and Lat Jorr at Kerr Ngoor until one come across Alioune Sarr, Charles Becker and Cheikh Diouf's document which tallies with all reliable sources as well as Serer oral sources in Sine. The evidence that Maba did went to Kerr Ngoor is far greater than the Muslims' claim "that he did not accompany his forces and Lat Jorr as well as Gumbo Gaye at Kerr Ngoor". To appreciate why this is a controversial issue, one needs to understand the legacy of Maba's Islamisation among certain Muslim communities in Senegambia (i.e. Senegal and The Gambia in particular). Maba is held as a hero by Senegambian Muslims many of whose ancestors he converted in the 19th century and given a saint like status by the Muslim communities for the propagation of Islam in Senegambia and a freedom fighter, and in particular, by the Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal who control information and have tried for almost one hundred and fifty years to hide Maba's enslaving of innocent people in The Gambia especially during the Baddibu Revolt; the killing of innocent people and his ravaging. To admit that Maba accompanied Lat Jorr and his army at Kerr Ngoor, would tarnish the saintly image of Maba in the minds of the Muslim masses of Senegambia. In other words, it would be not be dignifying to admit that Maba (whom is viewed as a Holy Saint and a hero by the Senegambian Muslims went to Kerr Ngoor in order to surprise Serer civilians and especially on a national day of moaning but more so, when the young boys have gone through the difficult journey of circumcision and were about to mark the final phases of initiation which is respected by all Senegambians irrespective of religion or tribe. To admit that, would be far less palatable to the ordinary Muslim masses who have given Maba a saint like status. Although these Muslim quarters of Senegambian society acknowledged that it was a surprise attack as evident in the historical sources such Klein's Islam and Imperialism in Senegal; even Abdou Boury Bâ's (a member of Maba's family) in his paper: "Essai sur l'histoire du Saloum et du Rip", Alioune Sarr's "Histoire du Sine-Saloum" etc, they distant Maba from it and lay the blame at Lat Jorr who indeed went and was indeed accompanied by Maba and his men (see Klein, Bâ, C. Diouf, N. Diouf; Sarr and Becker). Certain members of Senegambian Muslim societies such as the Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal tried to conceal such important facts of history for nearly 150 years. They have misrepresented the facts and some historians including Senegambian Muslims themselves have been duped into believing that such a saint like Maba, such a hero like Maba would not have partook in such a dishonourable act. But the incident at Kerr Ngorr remains fresh in the memories of the Serer people of Sine and have passed it on to their children and their childrens' children. There are of course certain historians who try to stay clear of the subject as to whether or not Maba went to kerr Ngorr. When they mention the incident at Kerr Ngoor (i.e. Mbin o Ngoor), sometimes not by name but by description of that incident as in Klein, they, including Klein himself acknowledged it was a surprise attack. Maba may not have gone to Sine in the first surprised attack when some of his men were defeated by the Sine army and those that remained tried to cross Saloum and the Saloum army finished them off as noted by Klein (see above), but the reliable source provide ample evidence that he indeed went to Kerr Ngorr. In fact, it makes total sense for him to go to Kerr Ngorr to avenge his men who went previously to launch a surprised attack against Sine and lost their lives. In Alioune Sarr and Charles Becker's "Histoire du Sine-Saloum" not only did Maba attended the surprise attack at Kerr Ngorr, it was him (Maba) whom killed Boukary N'goneh (see A. Sarr).

Alioune Sarr's account is backed up by Cheikh Diouf's "Fiscalité et Domination Coloniale: l'exemple du Sine"; Niokhobai Diouf's "Chronique du Royaume du Sine" and commented on by Charles Becker and Victor Martin; Charles Becker, Victor Martin and M. Mbodj "Trois documents d'Ernest Noirot sur l'histoire des royaumes du Siin et du Saalum" etc. All these sources acknowledged that the incident at Kerr Ngoor in 1867 occurred whilst Kumba Ndoffene attended a funeral and the circumcised initiation and Maba and his forces surprised him and burned his capital (Diakhao).

Kumba Ndoffene Famak did write a letter to Maba inviting to an open battle after his undignified attack in Sine. All sources acknowledge that. Boukary N'goneh also did sacrificed his life at Kerr Ngoor as noted by the sources. In L'epopee de Sanmoon Faye (The Epic of Sanou Moon Faye) under "The Family Juuf" ("Joof" or "Diouf"), he is acknowledged in the following terms:

"....Bukaro Ngooni (Boukary N'goneh) who paid with his life to prevent the disaster at "Mbin o Ngoor" (Kerr Ngoor)..."

It should also be noted, another Muslims claim that, the incident "went on for a week" is very unlikely. As the Muslims kept burning the houses, including Kerr Ngoor itself as noted by A. Sarr, N. Diouf, Becker etc, it does not make sense for people to stay in their houses as prisoners for almost a week when their houses are being burned. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Removal of tags
The article has been improved with respect to Halaqah's initial objections. I have dropped them a message and invited them to put the tags back when they come back to Wiki, and still feel there are problems. Tamsier (talk) 21:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)