Talk:Macau/Archive 1

Macaw / Macau
Is the origin of the name of macaws? -- Error


 * No, Macau is from Chinese, and macaw is possibly from a South American Indian language, but definitely unrelated to Macau. Even though both words coincidentally come across the path of the Portuguese. --Menchi 12:17 30 May 2003 (UTC)

History section
Someone anonymously added a section about events in 1966. I did an edit of this to fix up the english but I'm wondering about the merits and NPOV of this added text. SchmuckyTheCat 00:02, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Archived from Universities in Macau
Do we really need a new page for this? Macau likely will never have more than two, it seems rather redundant. Has been listed on votes for deletion. - user:zanimum
 * It doesn't bother me, but since there was a empty link, i just created this page. Maybe we can move it to the topic Macau under the subtitle "Education"? --ILovEJPPitoC 12:53, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Fine with me. - user:zanimum
 * Are you a sysop? I can move the content to Macau, then you can delete this page. --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 01:36, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Yep. Go ahead. I think everyone on VfD was fine with this, so move away. - user:zanimum


 * Done. Maybe the next step is to fix every page links here. --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 03:40, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Meaning of the words &#39340;&#20132;
The word "&#39340;&#20132;" ("Macao") means sexual intercourse between horses.


 * It is only the literal meaning. In fact the word "&#20132;" has many different and perhaps unrelated meanings.

Legend of the word "Macau"
Moved here from main article: P.S. There is a legend about the origin of the name "Macau." According to this legend, once upon a time, some Europeans happened to arrive in Macau and then asked a fisherman on the shore for the name of this place. However, the fisherman, not knowing what these foreigners were trying to say, replied, "What is up?" in Cantonese, which was equivalent to the pronunciation of "Macau" in Cantonese.

Unsure about accuracy of this. Fuzheado | Talk 06:55, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is not correct call Macau as colony, since XV century. It was a place to trade. Only have "wars" with pirates, with the approval of chineses.

Late in XVII's is a "chinese territory on portuguese administration", not a colony.

In result of this, RPC propose to Portugal, that only after Hong-Kong, they "look" to Macau.

There several resolutions in the congress of Comunist Party of China, about this subject.

Thank you.


 * Officially Macau became a colony like in the mid-19th century. It was a place for tradings and a Portuguese settlements, but not a colony. After 1974 revolution, Portugal treat it is a "Chinese territory on Portuguese administration", and administered as an overseas province.

Spelling of Macao / Meaning of Macanese
I refer to Merriam-Webster Online. Macao should be used in English, Macau is the Portuguese spelling. Please add also the Cantonese pronuncation of Àomén. Cantonese is spoken in Macao rather than Mandarin. Macanese can be used to refers specifically to the people with total or partial Portuguese ancestry, or generally to the people on Macao. FYI: Cantonese of Àomén in IPA: əʊ3mʊn4 or əʊ3mʊn2


 * Isnt Macau Aomen in Mandarin as well? Using the Mandarin term may be prefered, because it is not refered to as such based on what language they speak, but by the country it belongs to. (We would be including "Xianggang" for Hong Kong too, even thou Mandarin isnt a dominate language there either)


 * Macau is Portuguese, transcripted from "&#23229;&#38307;". I was suggesting to add the Cantonese pronunciation in IPA, with the Hanyu Pinyin.


 * Anyway, I think due to a gradual global shift in cartography which promotes the spelling of city names in their local language (or basically the non-English one as far as possible), we may not really have to stick to the English spelling in this case. For example. East Timor is often refered to as Timor Leste, its Portuguese name, due to politics, and the later happens to be the name it is refered to in the UN as well. Notice also, that the territory appears to prefer calling itself by its Portuguese name too? works, but  dosent! :D--Huaiwei 11:12, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Well you're getting to far. :-)
 * www.macau.gov.mo works but not www.macao.gov.mo  because Macau is Portuguese and Macao is English.  Portuguese is the official language but not English.  Go to the English version of its official website and see how Macao is spelt.  :-P


 * The government (both PRC and SAR) uses "Macau" in its English publications. And Mandarin is not the official language--Chinese is. --Jiang 12:38, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Nope. Please go to the English version of its official website and see how Macao is spelt.


 * Additional information:
 * Macao Basic Law.
 * Article 136, the name Macao uses to join international organisations.
 * Yeah, but as I mentioned earlier, did you notice how the URL was spelt too? :D--Huaiwei 18:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * (excuse me for copying and pasting, but I guess you've missed it)
 * www.macau.gov.mo works but not www.macao.gov.mo  because Macau is Portuguese and Macao is English.  Portuguese is the official language but not English.  Go to the English version of its official website and see how Macao is spelt.  :-P
 * Furthermore... the domain extension is .mo but not .mu, I guess it's because it was assigned in English. :-P (who knows anywayz)
 * No I have not missed it. I just felt it is inconsequential IMPO. If the folks in Macau prefer to call themselves Macau (which isnt in English), just as the folks in Beijing prefer to call themselves Beijing (instead of Peking), then who are we as an online encyclopedia to re-define things for them?--Huaiwei 21:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Have a review of other dictionaries and encyclopaedias and see how they write. :-) --00:24, Decemer 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Show me (and us) the evidence then, if it was so easily accessible and widely accepted as claimed. I still stick to my opinion that we shall name the city/territory based on how they choose to call themselves officially. You will probably find more references to Myanmar as Burma too, including in encyclopedias and such, but we are still sticking to Myanmar, as a comparison.--Huaiwei 11:43, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Try [www.m-w.com Merriam Webster Online]. Thanks for pointing out the example of Myanmar and Burma.  Macao is the official English name, whereas Macau is the official Portuguese name, and is used in English unofficially.
 * If a concensus over its spelling is made some time later, and has decided to use Macao, then I'll [Wikipedia:Requested_moves|request a move].-- 17:30, December 9, 2004, UTC

Santo Nome de Deus de Macau
Some websites said that the capital of Macao is "Santo Nome de Deus de Macau". What is that? And what is "Santo Nome de Deus de"? Search by Google

See answer below. We should add this to the articles. – Kaihsu 23:38, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)


 * Thank you. -- 08:39, December 21, 2004, UTC

Subdivisions
Are these subdivisions official ones? As far as I know Macau (Macau Peninsula) and the Islands (Ilhas) are two cities, and each of them used to have municipal councils. These councils were scrapped after the handover. But is there any official documents that the two cities are ever renamed as two districts?
 * Are there any official documents stating they are seperate cities today as well?--Huaiwei 13:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * So a possible possibility is that there are no districts nor cities. Better get some Macanese and ask them how many &#24066;s are there in Macau.
 * Oh you mean you actually didnt know? Interesting how you went about creating pages refering to them as city then. What I did, in comparison, was to simply revert them, or edit them so that they are in line with the existing contents of wikipedia. This page, for example, already insists that Macau has two districts, and not too cities.--Huaiwei 18:18, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you won't be convinced anyway and you need something who looks convincing to you. People from Macao would be the best choice. -- 19:03, December 15, 2004, UTC
 * So why arent you waiting for one before demanding a move of this page, for example?--Huaiwei 19:32, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To answer the 2 questions above: There were indeed 2 cities during Portuguese times: one in the north (the city of Holy Name of God etc. No One More Loyal etc.) with a nice coat-of-arms with angels as supporters; one in the south, covering the Islands. After the People's Republic of China took over, it introduced at first provisional city councils for the 2 cities; then after a few years, it replaced the provisional city councils with the IACM and did away with the Holy Name and supporting angels. Sigh. – Kaihsu 23:37, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kaihsu. That means the two concelhos (cities) and the names, the coats-of-arm, are scraped by an undemocratic government which lacks legitimacy. Are you familiar with the local situation of Macao, and can you tell if the two concelhos are still commonly used as references to them among the local people (well, colloquially)? -- 08:38, December 21, 2004

Request for Move discussion
The following discussion was on WP:RFM. There is no concensus to move.

Macau &rarr; Macao
[proposed by User:202.61.116.8 ] Object Macau is now naming itself as Macau, and not Macao, just as we now refer to Beijing as Beijing, and not "Peking", the later of which is the "English name" until the Chinese reinvented the way their cities should be phonecised.--Huaiwei 19:37, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Macao is the official English spelling. Macau is Portuguese, and an inofficial spelling in English.

Agree Macau named itself as Macao in English (and Macao in Portuguese). Source: Macao government website. The same treatment is found in the article Political divisions of Portugal under overseas provinces. -- 19:46, December 15, 2004, UTC


 * Comment: If this article is moved, History of Macau, Politics of Macau, Geography of Macau, Economy of Macau, Demographics of Macau and Culture of Macau should all be moved as well. [[User:Livajo|&#1051;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081; | &#9786;]] 22:54, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Plus a whole slew of pages in Category:Macau, and of course that category itself. [[User:Livajo|&#1051;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081; | &#9786;]] 22:55, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * But that's not a reason for not sticking with the naming convention of using English, and using the official names. -- 07:40, December 16, 2004, UTC
 * I wasn't arguing for either side, just pointing out that if it is decided a change would be beneficial, we should change all the others for consistency's sake. [[User:Livajo|&#1051;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081; | &#9786;]] 09:05, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree. That's gonna be time-consuming. -- 11:31, December 16, 2004, UTC
 * Comment: Has anyone noticed, the "Macao government website" (sic) that you presented as evidence is named http://www.macau.gov.mo/index_en.html? &mdash;ExplorerCDT 20:36, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Objection. Can anyone say waste of time?  Both spellings are somewhat official, just based on different systems of transliteration.  Macau seems to be the most prevalent.  The redirect, as it currently stands, is sufficient. Google Test:  10,100,000 hits for Macau  and less, 4,100,000, for Macao . 5:2 ratio.  Test #2&mdash;Officiality in the English-speaking world: The Central Intelligence Agency spells it Macau, as does the U.S. Department of State , and the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office , and the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade . Easy solution....just add a disclaimer (when necessary) saying (also spelled Macao). But that has already been done. So, I say again...can anyone say waste of time?&mdash;ExplorerCDT 20:06, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * ExplorerCDT, it is because "Macau" is the official spelling in Portuguese, which is co-official language with Chinese in Macao, and that's why the url is spelt as "Macau". The official English spelling used by the government is "Macao", see http://www.macau.mo/index_en.html .  It uses the title "Macao, China" to join various international organisations, such as FIFA and Olympic Committee. (try look up on the websites of these organisations :-) ) -- 06:57, December 17, 2004, UTC
 * FIRST&mdash;SIGN YOUR COMMENTS! I hate talking to anonymous people. SECOND&mdash;the matter at hand... The Portuguese authorities reverted to the Macau spelling in the 19th Century. Subsequent to returning sovereignty to People's Republic of China, the Chinese Government ordered the official spelling of Macau would be Macao in English.  English speaking nations, as I have enumerated above, use Macau officially, despite the order by the Chinese Government.  As for FIFA, the Macanese team is called the Macau Football Association.  Mind you, FIFA while international is a very franco-centric organization.  And France, having close relations with China, and being sissies on the international front, generally accept the Chinese order.  But this isn't the French Wikipedia.  According to Google, there are 10 spellings as Macao Olympic Committee  and 43 for Macau Olympic Committee  .  As for references to the International Olympic Committee and Macau, there are 2060,  International Olympic Committee and Macao there are 1100 .   Most institutions in Macau (especially banks and the University of Macau) ignore the Chinese order regarding spelling.  But then again, Portuguese (which spells it with a u) is an official language in Macau, English is not.  While you debate the spelling (despite most of the world officially settling for Macau), you did not respond to the fact that all the redirects as they currently stand suffice, averting any possible confusion that could result from the two spellings, and from what I have seen every page referring to Macau as the subject states a disclaimer referencing the alternative spelling.  Again, waste of time.  The reasons for legitimately requesting a move are lacking and your claim is (I fear) more for your aesthetic preferences rather than the facts surrounding its usage (which you seem to ignore), as I have referenced above. Lastly, a reminder, as in our end is our beginning: Sign your comments. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 08:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Interesting information. But it is the first time to know that it was the Peking government which made Macao the official name in English. Did Peking did anything similar on its name in other languages, for instance, German? Thank you. -- 07:37, December 18, 2004, UTC
 * At the FIFA website, Macao is used to refer to it as a member of FIFA, although its football association uses Macau. The google search statistics might have include some non-English websites. -- 08:45, December 18, 2004, UTC
 * Will you sign your damned comments. Four tildas (~) that's all I ask. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 06:37, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Oppose. While I have always spelt it Macao, it appears I am in the minority. The supposed official Web site is unreachable (no DNS entry), so I can't take into consideration what it says.  All ExplorerCDT's evidence points to Macau being the most widely-used English spelling, and it's not simply a widespread ignorant usage, but the one used in an official language of the place. &mdash;Tkinias 22:54, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Seems like the government website is plugged off. Let's try browsing its website with Google (and try Google too to compare the number of hits). -- 07:35, December 18, 2004, UTC


 * Oppose. Yet another pointless quibble about orthography. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:28, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I lived in Macau for awhile and noted that both spellings are prevalent. But I am against a change on the grounds that Portuguese is an official language of Macau but English strictly speaking isn't. --JuntungWu 05:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
Do anyone know how did the coat of arms of the concelho council of Santo Nome de Deus de Macau (the city of Holy Name of God. No One More Loyal) before being scrapped look like?

Water boundary with mainland
Is the water boundary with the mainland marked (like Hong Kong's)? &mdash; Instantnood 14:08 Feb 3 2005 (UTC)

Size of Macao
Taken from Geography of Macau

"Pre-colonial records show that Macau totaled only 2.78 km² but began to increase as a result of Portuguese settlement. Land growth has accelerated since the last quarter of the 10th century, from 15 square kilometers in 1972 to 16.1 square kilometers in 1983 to 21.3 square kilometers in 1994. Macau's size has gradually increased as result of continued land reclamation, especially on Taipa and Coloane. In 2000, the total land area was approximately 23.6 km². There is a 0.34-kilometer-long border between Macau and mainland China and a forty-kilometer-long coastline."

How can land growth "has accelerated since the last quarter of the 10th century"? Was land reclamation possible at that time? Or land growth was a result of being part of a river delta?

Macau colony comprised of the Macau Peninsula only, until Taipa and Coloane were ceded. The figures of its size at different time seems to be mixed. &mdash; Instantnood 14:53 Feb 3 2005 (UTC)

Page move
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:

XXX of/in Macao &rarr; XXX of/in Macau
A previous request of moving Macau to Macao has been rejected in the talk page of Macau. However, we have residue references to Macao as part of page titles or categories, such as Current events in Hong Kong and Macao. I would propose renaming these for consistency.
 * Support - As explained above.--Huaiwei 11:53, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose at the time being. The request was voted down largely because of the lack of incentive, as the title "Macau" is nothing problematic, and therefore people voted to keep the title as it is. While in a test of prevalence in English "Macau" gave more hits, the government of Macao uses "Macao". In the discussion there wasn't any decision over the preference of "Macau" over "Macao" for all pages across Wikipedia. (The discussion is archived at the Talk:Macau. It took me some time to find it out. :-) ) Although different language versions of Wikipedia can have different editorial policies, the spelling of Macao/Macau adopted in other language versions of Wikipedia deserve to be taken as reference. &mdash; Instantnood 13:15 Feb 21 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment I disagree. The Macau government spells their own territory as macau, and that includes in English documents. The best way to name a city is to follow domestic spelling, and this has been mentioned in the earlier vote.--Huaiwei 13:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The government of Macao spell "Macau" in Portuguese, and "Macao" in English. If the domestic spelling rule applies, "Macao" should be used on the English version of Wikipedia.  &mdash; Instantnood 13:39 Feb 21 2005 (UTC)
 * Not true. As a matter of fact, they are using both in their English texts at present, and are moving towards Macau over Macao. In fact, international English media publications has already shifted to using Macau over Macao in their English texts.--Huaiwei 07:00, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't read its websites very often, and I can't tell whether they're moving towards either side. &mdash; Instantnood 19:01 Feb 27 2005 (UTC)
 * Support as I fought hard to keep Macau from being moved before. I don't remember Instantnood being a party to that conversation so how does he know or dismiss it as failing because of a "lack of incentive."  Actually, internet and popular usage, Macau's government policy (they don't just use "Macao"), diplomatic usage, issues of transliteration, and a few other concerns led the Macau → Macao move to be opposed by many, not some perceived "incentive."  Instantnood, stop speaking out of your ass. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 16:30, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Neutralitytalk 16:54, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * support. use common and official spelling--Jiang 17:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: The English spelling used by the government of Macao is "Macao", although it uses "Macau" as its official spelling in Portuguese (see both English and Portuguese versions of its website). A Google test gives more hits for "Macao Special Administrative Region" than "Macau Special Administrative Region". The German, Spanish, French, Interlingua, Slovenian, Finnish and Swedish versions of Wikipedia uses "Macao" as their titles, while Malay, Portuguese and Dutch versions uses "Macau". &mdash; Instantnood 19:50 Feb 21 2005 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, the url reads "Macau", and not "Macao". A would-be tourist to Macau goes to a site called "www.macautourism.gov.mo" and not "www.macaotourism.gov.mo", when "Tourism" is obviously an English word. Its the "Macau Government Tourist Office" and not "Macao Government Tourist Office", when the title is obviously English too. And of coz, what word appears in the main page of that site? "Macau", and not "Macao." Clearly, I can find an example of "Macau" being used in English documents for every "Macao" you can find, but that is not the point. My point is the government is indeed favouring a spelling of "Macau" over "Macao", and that should be what we are reflecting.--Huaiwei 07:00, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing a counter example. I have briefly glanced through the government directory of the English version of its website, and the choice between "Macao" and "Macau" is divided even within the government. We're not in a position to judge which should be used. I would treat this spelling inconsistency in the same way as British-American differences.  &mdash; Instantnood 17:36 Feb 25 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. A.D.H. (t&m) 21:00, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Philip Baird Shearer 14:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Macao is common English spelling. Jayjg (talk) 16:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * No offence, but it isn't. It's the spelling that the PRC wants the English world to swallow.  We covered this the last time Macau was proposed to be moved to Macao, but for your sake I'll repeat it.  Please see Talk:Macau for the full debate from last time.  English results on Google (as they've changed since last time around): Searching for Macau -Macao 5,130,000 hits. and Macao -Macau: 1,580,000 ...without qualifiers&mdash;Macau: 5,330,000, Macao: 1,710,000, and Australian, British and US Government use "Macau" more predominantly.  Please reconsider your opposition in light of these facts. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 19:30, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It is indeed an interesting piece of information. I am not sure what the PRC government could have done, but "Macao" is definitely not a creation by the PRC government. An island in Hong Kong called "Lantau" has also got an alternative name "Lantao". Both "Macao"/"Macau" and "Lantau"/"Lantao" were given by the Portuguese who were the first Europeans visiting the southern China coast. The PRC government could have done the same to force the world "to swallow" to spelling "Lantao", but it hasn't. "Lantau" is the predominant spelling. The choice between "Macau" and "Macao" was perhaps arbitrary. And I am interested to know about the evidence of ExplorerCDT's claim. &mdash; Instantnood 20:50 Feb 26 2005 (UTC)
 * What claim do you want substantiated, gnat? As to "Macau" vs. "Macao" the difference comes from a nuance in Portuguese phoneticization being the most etymologically correct, as it was the Portuguese who had to write an equivalent of the name from the Chinese (if I recall it meant something like "Bay of A-ma") since it was their colonial pursuit.  Macau is correct when transliterating the original Chinese name into Portuguese, and its usage dates back to the first lease of Macau in 1557, appearing on maps predominantly as "Macau" throughout the age of exploration into modernity.  It does appear on maps occasionally with the typo Magau.  The Macao usage is as a result of a system of transliteration from Portuguese texts into English in the 19th century that is no longer accepted by translators, as it was a system designed for adapting Spanish and Italian pedagogically for English-speakers.  The fact remains, however, that despite the PRC's attempts to compel the English-speaking world to use "Macao" (they succeeded in doing so at the UN), the English speaking powers officially use Macau.  So, the Reds in Peking have gotten the proverbial "up yours" from the diplomats in the English speaking world. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 21:25, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * P.S. As to Lantao, the reason we largely probably don't care...most Westerners don't know that Hong Kong is more than one island, and don't know anything other than "Hong Kong." I do, and FYI I spell it Lantao as that's the spelling I'm more familiar with. However, I didn't really care for Hong Kong, but the time I've spent in Macau (which I absolutely love) leads me to fight this vigorously. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 21:30, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Still.. I don't see any evidence that the guys in Beijing want the English-speaking world "to swallow" the spelling of "Macao", intentionally, and to make them give up the spelling of "Macau". And even if it's true, it's not a valid reason to support or oppose to either spellings. Both are common in English.
 * Hmm, I guess you don't think going around the international community demanding the English spelling be "Macao" doesn't count? I concede, both are common. But if google is an indicator, it's 4:1 in Macau's favour. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 19:15, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Both Lantau/Lantao and Macao/Macau came from Portuguese, and share the same problem in their spellings in English. That's why I used it as an example. I didn't care whether you're familiar of the island or not.
 * Do you think I care that you don't care? &mdash;ExplorerCDT 19:15, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * One more thing, no offense, remember about the third bullet point under this section.  &mdash; Instantnood 18:53 Feb 27 2005 (UTC)
 * What does "Amend, edit, discuss" have to do with this? Geesh you are increasingly annoying, first by being doggedly persistent in forwarding inaccuracy, now you're bringing up irrelevant stuff. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 19:15, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)