Talk:Macedonian cuisine

No Bulgarian influences
Unless you prove otherwise, with references. --Bonina 22:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever filled this page in.

Why Slavic?
Are there really differences between the cuisine of "Slavic" and non-Slavic Macedonians? I do not think that we could differentiate between the cuisine used by inhabitants of the Republic and those of Macedonia (Greece) or of the Blagoevgrad Province of Bulgaria. Also, Macedoninas from Greek Macedonia with Greek ethnicity and/or descent would share the cuisine with their Slavic-speakig neighbours. 20th centure immigrants from Asia Minor may have their own traditions, but the cultural heritage of Macedonians is more or less the same in the entire Region of Macedonia]]. This is, of course, my own original research, but so is the idea the there is a Slavic Macedonian ciusine (no hits in Google). Moreover, it appears to me that the inclusion of the term "Slavic" in this context may be considered condescending by Macedonians. Andreas (T) 15:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed page move to Macedonian cuisine (Republic of Macedonia)
I tentatively support the recent (now reverted) move to Macedonian cuisine (Republic of Macedonia), or even better, cuisine in the Republic of Macedonia. Reason: There are slavs in Macedonia (Greece), too, and as stated above, there is no indication that the cuisine of slavic-speaking and Greek-speaking macedonians are different in Greek Macedonia. The sources (that are missing in the article and in the sister article Macedonian cuisine (Greek)) would more likely to refer to the region/country where a particular dish is prepared than to the ethnicity/language of the cooks. Until the contrary has been documented, it is safer to assume a divide by country than an ethnic divide. In any case, I would suggest that some cookbooks are cited before discussing the difference between the two variants of Macedonian cuisine and their geographical or ethnical distribution. Andreas (T) 15:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. Macedonian cuisine has nothing to do with the ethnicity. We did not really come up with any of our dishes. Most of them are Middle Eastern, the rest are present all over the Balkans and Europe. I tried to find Macedonian cookbooks, but I couldn't. I personally think such articles should be kept aside from politics. I doubt that the ones who proposed the "Macedonian cuisine (Slavic)" name have any culinary savoir faire, especially not Macedonian. --Emeraldher 15:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is this page not moved yet?
Obviously a few people want it moved to Macedonian cuisine (Republic of Macedonia). --Emeraldher 12:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Why don't you move it to Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia instead? It sounds a lot better this way, doesn't it? -- L a v e o l  T 12:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, Ive done it a few times already and some characters with dictatorish tendencies move it back... let's see what happens. --Emeraldher 12:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

the Slavic again
"Also referred to as Slav Macedonian Cuisine?" - I've never heard anyone calling it that. So, unless you have references for this, the sentence should be deleted. Let's not exaggerate here.. --Emeraldher 13:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't get too carried away - I thought this was some sort of a consensus decision - now you've got the name of the article as you want it - it's worth mentioning the other point of view. -- L a v e o l  T 13:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's not a consensus decision. "Don't get too carried away?" what a chutzpa! --Emeraldher 13:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are getting carried away, Bonina, as you're ignoring the opposite POV -- L a v e o l  T 13:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Which is what? Besides, I haven't deleted anything yet, have I? --Emeraldher 13:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it better now? it totally respects your POV, even though I fail to understand why you even have one on the matter...--Emeraldher 13:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not my POV, but NPOV instead - both versions are presented. And why do you say Bulgaria - it was the first to recognize your country - with it's constitutional name besides -- L a v e o l  T 20:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, its your or Greek POV. Only Greeks and Bulgarians might refer to is as Slav Macedonian. Bulgaria doesn't recognize us, or our language. Thus, the Slav Macedonian thing can only stand as also referred to ....in Bulgaria and I can add Greece. Anyways it will have to go when this article gets sourced.

Old Requested move
This proposal has been withdrawn due to a consensus for keeping current formats. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 23:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Per naming conventions of Wikipedia for country specific topics, topics that extend beyond the geographical area of the country use the "Country topic" format. This is one of the last few articles that still use the "Cuisine of country" format. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 15:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - Topical articles by country should employ standard uniform titles to avoid confusion. The "Country topic" format is the most appropriate in the case of cuisine. Neelix (talk) 18:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose The "Country topic" format is inapplicable here due to the fact that the Greek component and the RoM component do not belong in the same country. As simple as that. Also they are not about the "same subject of Ethnic Macedonian cuisine" because it just so happens that the Greek Macedonians are Greeks. This suggestion is insulting to both peoples. Greek Macedonians and RoM are two different peoples. Please read relevant history of the region before making such proposals. Dr.K. (logos) 23:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose The move will make an ambiguous title. Xuz (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

"Naming of articles relating to the Republic of Macedonia 	Use 'Republic of Macedonia'"Dr.K. (logos) 16:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Can't quite see why we need separate move discussions for Bangladeshi, Georgian, Burmese, Cambodian, Macedonian and Indian cuisines, it's not that standardisation is always good but these are have similar issues. Andrewa (talk) 12:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you comparing the issues of Bangladesh to Macedonia? or Burma, Cambodia etc? Can you cite anyone else on the Internet making such comparisons and spurious claims or is this just your own WP:OR? Dr.K. (logos) 21:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note - DR. K, I believe that Andrew is simply referring to the multiple discussions on these articles' talk pages as opposed to a single, centralized discussion about moving the articles to the Country cuisine format. I believe that is all that he is commenting on, not the status or position of these countries. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 23:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe you may be right. I just struck my comments above. Thank you Jeremy. Take care. Dr.K. (logos) 01:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - like Dr.K. said, this is a special case. "Burmese" obviously refers to Burma, "Cambodian" to Cambodia, etc. "Macedonian" is ambiguous because there are two very different Macedonias - one Greek, one Slavic, both with their particular cuisines. Hence, no move should be made. - Biruitorul Talk 16:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment This merge suggestion is in violation of Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). Quote:


 * Strong oppose - Each article is named for a reason and uniformity is thus unnecessary, and, in some cases, undesirable. Redirects exist for each national cuisine article. "Macedonia" may refer either to Slavic or Greek regions and this proposal defies our own naming conventions. Badagnani (talk) 20:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent comment, expertly stated. There is no "Macedonia (region)" There is Greek Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia. No one can combine these artificially and call it a "region". This is unhistorical and a pure invention as well as WP:OR. Dr.K. (logos) 20:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Old Merge discussion
This proposal has been withdrawn due to consensus keeping the current format. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 01:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The merge discussion can be found here. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 20:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia → Macedonian cuisine (Slavic) &mdash; The main article, Macedonian culture (Slavic), from which this is spun off of has been renamed time and time again, as we know. This article was originally called Macedonian cuisine (Slavic) before being moved here. This situation needs to be addressed to bring it in line with its parent article and the naming guidelines for cuisine related articles. --Jeremy (blah blah) 23:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait for the resolution of WP:MOSMAC2 before making a decision. Jafeluv (talk) 07:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The proposed target seems strange as if there were also a Macedonian cuisine (Albanian) article discussing Albanian cuisine in Macedonia. —   AjaxSmack   03:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there is already a Macedonian cuisine (Greek) article... Jafeluv (talk) 06:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You nailed that spot on. That is why the original article was named Macedonian cuisine (Slavic), to differentiate the two. --Jeremy (blah blah) 06:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have removed the move tag because the WP:MOSMAC2 decision later this month would override it anyway. Be sure to participate on the discussion on that page if you have an opinion on the subject. Jafeluv (talk) 12:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Another requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved per WP:Naming conventions (Macedonia) — kwami (talk) 23:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Cuisine of the Republic of Macedonia → Macedonian cuisine – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC) This move was discussed once in December 2008 and once in June 2009, but both times before Wikipedia's naming conventions on Macedonia-related articles was accepted in July 2009. Since then, the move has not been revisited. I am recommending that it should be revisited because the naming conventions that were agreed upon in July 2009 suggest that the title of this article should be "Macedonian cuisine". According to the guidelines, "for sub-articles of the country, either "Macedonia(n)" or "Republic of Macedonia" will be used". Consequently, in cases where the adjectival is most common, such as is the case with cuisine, the "Macedonian x" title treats the country as the primary topic. At the moment, literally every other Wikipedia article about national cuisine employs the "Adjectival cuisine" format; this article is the only exception. The vast majority of the incoming links to Macedonian cuisine also refer to the cuisine of the country. As such, the article about the country's cuisine should be moved to Macedonian cuisine, Macedonian cuisine (Greek) should be linked in a hatnote at the top of the country cuisine article, and the Macedonian cuisine disambiguation page should be moved to Cuisine of Macedonia. Neelix (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC) I did not move the dab page to Cuisine of Macedonia, as that doesn't follow our normal dab conventions. 'Cuisine of Macedonia' and 'Macedonian cuisine' are synonyms. — kwami (talk) 23:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong Support. Tomica1111  (talk)
 * Strong support - Enough with the hyper-nationalism and nit-picking. Greece is Greece and despite part of it having been part of historical Macedonia, this is the modern country commonly referred to as Macedonia. Neelix's reasoning is sound and I fully agree with him. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 15:26, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose First please leave this nonsense about hyper-nationalism and nit-picking and use WP:AGF and don't try to stifle legitimate debate. Macedonia is a region. The Republic of Macedonia cannot usurp the cuisine for the whole region. It would be nonsensical. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 16:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarification - My comment in reference to the nationalism issues that has pervaded the Macedonian related issues is prescient to the discussion because of the various debates on that subject that went on for several years. The Greek-Macedonian cuisine article is properly titled as Macedonian cuisine (Greek) yet this one remains as it stands, in conflict with consensus derived policy regarding the subject of Macedonian related subjects that was put in place to resolve these issues. The argument that you put forth in your oppose is what I call nit-picking and was one of the arguments that was at the center of these debates; again this should have been settled with the policy implementation Neelix mentioned in his reasoning for the proposed move. The citizens of The Republic of Macedonia are called Macedonians, thus their cuisine should be Macedonian cuisine. The proposal by Neelix to add a hat note concerning the cuisine of the Macedonian region of Greece addresses the regional vs state issue that you comment on. Finally, I always assume good faith of others and do so here, my initial comment was in regards to the arguments and not the persons making them. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * While I accept some of your clarification, I do not accept The argument that you put forth in your oppose is what I call nit-picking and was one of the arguments that was at the center of these debates; again this should have been settled with the policy implementation Neelix mentioned in his reasoning for the proposed move. because it is patently invalid. The region of Macedonia includes parts of Albania, Serbia and Bulgaria; so the Greek part of Macedonia is just a moot point. Finally I don't appreciate you calling my points nit-picking because it stands against AGF. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 20:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Dr.K. A Macedonian (talk) 06:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Macedonian cuisine (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:16, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Request to Move
Macedonian cuisine-> Macedonian cuisine (North Macedonia) Otherwise it is misleading that the cuisine in Macedonia region is the only one by the North Macedonia. Gnslps (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No. This was discussed and rejected just a few months ago. Follow the link given in the two sections above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:59, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

IP edits creating uncited nonsense
An IP has changed


 * "It is influenced by Ottoman Turkish cuisine and shares characteristics of other Balkan cuisines."

to


 * "It is influenced by Balkan cuisine and shares characteristics of other Balkan cuisines."

Obviously this doesn't make sense (or at best it's just repetitive nonsense), and obviously it isn't what the cited source says. I've reverted them twice and given them a warning on their talk page, so I'd better stop, but this isn't OK. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Now they've also changed "Balkan" to "Bulgarian", with the unhelpful (or deceptive) comment "Grammar". This isn't OK either. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I've invited them to this talk page. If there is any continued disruption, page protection will be requested. StephenMacky1 (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)