Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 14

The article "Macedonians_(ethnic_group)" is wrong.
The whole article is based on a fake fact. Macedonia or to correct it Makedonia (in ancient Hellas the letter k was written with a line and a conjoint curve like the letter c in the latin alphabet) existed there long before the Skopjens went there. TO correct what I say the Slavs ethnic group came there about 2500 years ago when the real Makedonians lived there long ago about 4000 years ago. The Real Makedonians had emigrated southwards in the land that stand as north Hellas today about 3000 years ago. They left behind buildings and many ancient artifacts that belong to them but could not be carried away (such as tombs with ancent greek writing etc.). Today's Slavs alphabet was created by 2 men Cyril and Methodius which they tried to civilize and evangelize the slavian people. Today's Skopjen people are descendants of the slavian people that came to that land. So they can not be descendants of the Ancient Makedonians because of that historic truth. Skopjen people cannot be named as Macedonians ethnic Group. It is not true at all. It is a fake fact that some people created and the Skopjen people accepted as true.

If someone believes that I am wrong, then as my people in Hellas say: "let him eat vinegar.". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.107.83 (talk) 12:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that we have an article Macedonians (Greeks), which deals with the modern Hellenic inhabitants of the region, and an article Ancient Macedonians. This article does not say that the Slavic Macedonians are "descendants of the Ancient Makedonians". Deor (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Also note that since there is a Macedonians (Greeks) and a Ancient Macedonians article, this one should named "Macedonians (slavic ethnic group)". The way it is now, it implies that the 2 first are just subcategories of the later. Furthermore, there are spots throughout the whole article that imply occupation of other countries over Slavic Macedonians, without further references. For example, "With the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, the Macedonian upper stratum had to decide whether Macedonia was to emerge as an independent state or as part of a “Greater Bulgaria”.[70]". The reference states a general existance of tries of Macedonia to free themselves from the Ottomans, not to what they had to decide "with the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire". Next sentence, "During this period, the first expressions of ethnic nationalism by certain Macedonian intellectuals occurred in Belgrade, Sofia, Istanbul, Thessaloniki and St. Petersburg. The activities of these people was registered by Petko Slaveykov[71] and Stojan Novaković[72]". "During this period", refering to "With the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire", actually begun in 1908, marked by the Young Turk Revolution. Macedonia was officially free of Ottoman occupation with the Treaty of Bucharest (1913). References 71 and 72 are used as proof for something that happened many years after they were published. "The emergence of Macedonian identity was a relatively nascent and nebulous affair because Ottoman rule (a regimen which suppressed liberalism and nationalism) had lasted there the longest, the subsequent propaganda and armed conflict between newly formed Balkans monarchies (Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia) over Macedonian territory, and indeed the cultural similarity between Macedonians and their closest neighbours (especially Bulgarians)." Although at the time there were many historical documentations, a reference (73) published 100 years later is chosen as proof. I can find more examples like this. Don't take me wrong, I acknowledge there are macedonians in greek, slavic and bulgarian territory that share the same ancestors and throughout history their language was changed, but accepting whichever 2 of these 3 groups as subcategories of any 3rd is wrong in my opinion.--Cuorion (talk) 18:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Greek Macedonia is taken over in the map
Look at the map. Enlarge it. Greek Macedonia is the only country where the Republic of Macedonia spills over. In fact, the colour of Greece indicates, according to the chart, the number of Slav or ethnic Macedonians in Greece. That is the case with all countries; the colour reflects the number. So the map is incorrect. I suggest you correct the map, i.e. to make Greece the same colour in line with the other countries. Politis (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The color of Bulgaria also does not correspond to the "Infobox and and census information" as the author claim. Whoever did that map, should fix it. --StanProg (talk) 16:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Disputed statement
This statement: "Certain of these cultural aspects developed within Macedonia itself.[38]" is based on this source: 'Fine (1991, pp. 113, 196) Two brothers ... Constantine and Methodius ..were fluent in the dialect of Slavic in the environs of Thessaloniki. They devised an alphabet to convey Slavic phonetics | He [Samuel] restored the Bulgarian Orthodox patriarchate.. in Ohrid'. The sentence contains information which is particularly difficult to verify with this source. Macedonian (talk) 16:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Why is it non verifable ? So what it's stating is that certain cultural-historical-religious features (ie development of Cyrilic, or the role of Ohrid as a cultural -spiritual centre) originated/developed in the region of Macedonia. I didn;t think such a sentence was that cryptic Slovenski Volk (talk) 04:57, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What I'm wondering is, what does this have to do with the ethnic Macedonian identity, an identity that emerged in late 19th/early 20th century at the earliest? Athenean (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It has everything to do with origins, given that the ancestors of Macedonians created those feats, irrespective of which Empire they were in at the time, and what they may or may not have been called. And remember, other modern nation-state identities emerged in 19th century also: French, German, Italian and even Greeks & Romans, irrespective how glorious one;s ancient past is, identity based on nation-state ethnicity is a modern creation. Your linguistic ancestors called themseleves Hellenes, Romans, Byzantines, then Greeks. Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I am unsure as to what the sentence should mean. "Certain of these cultural aspects developed within Macedonia itself". Which Macedonia? Which aspects? Is it not natural for cultural aspects to be developed within a certain space? Please, explain how this sentence contributes to the text. -- L a v e o l  T 10:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The stated ones above. It merely highlights that, although the development of many cultural attributes which today characterize Macedonians developed and flowered during the Byzantine and Bulgarian Empires, they are not wholly 'loans' or imports, but rather Macedonia was an active developer of these attributes themselves. Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * But where does the text imply that this development has taken outside of Macedonia? Neither does it say that Macedonian culture is some sort of an import. The sentence in its current state is irrelevant and actually OR, since none of the sources states that. Moreover, given the context (the sentence immediately before it), it rather implies that there was a certain entity Macedonia at the time. There wasn't. Further, the source mentions the brothers Cyril and Methodius, but they did not come up with the Glagolitic alphabet in the region.
 * Sorry, but it more and more seems like this sentence should go. We have three editors requesting its removal now. -- L a v e o l  T 10:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me Volk, but this is a nonsense. We talk about RoM. Thessaloniki never was on its territory and the holy brothers seems never visited it. Jingiby (talk) 11:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah but the alphabet theydeveloped was based on the local, Macedonian dialect of Slavic (Alexander Shchenker, Dawn of Slavic). Stating such factors of cultural origins does not imply that a distinct, Macedonian ethnos existed back then. You guys are misunderstanding . Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The point here is that the statement's sources do not support the material of the statement clearly and directly. In fact the whole "Origins" section (except for the genetics part) needs a clean-up, since it looks like drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance novel positions (which is that the ethnic Macedonians are somehow the cultural ancestors of the Slavs and that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged before the late 19th - early 20th centuries), something that is prohibited by the NOR policy. Macedonian (talk) 14:43, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No. That's your confabulation. It discusses different strands of Macedonian origin - culture, language, anthropology, etc using the sources stated. They are not then contrived into a synthesis or any unsubstantiated conclusion; but are left as self-evident facts. I do not even understand what you mean by which is that the ethnic Macedonians are somehow the cultural ancestors of the Slavs Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:59, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Disputed template
People who have identified themselves exclusively and only as Bulgarians in ethnic sense have not place here. Dame Gruev, Petar Poparsov and Gotse Delchev are described in the corresponding articles as Bulgarians and must be removed from this template. The fact they were proclaimed years after their deaths as Macedonians in Communist Yugoslavia make them not such.Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,  up until the early 20th century. It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later. However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed. After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness. With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population. In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation. Jingiby (talk) 10:05, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Loring Danforth should be removed as a source on Wikipedia
He claims he's an expert but he contradicts his own alleged facts.

In one place he says this...

"Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD" www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Conflict.htm

In another he says this?

Loring Danforth states similarly, the ancient heritage of modern Balkan countries is not “the mutually exclusive property of one specific nation” but “the shared inheritance of all Balkan peoples”. - Ancient Macedonia: National Symbols. L Danforth in A Companion to Ancient Macedonia. Wiley –Blackwell 2010. Pg 597-8

Would the real Loring Danforth please stand up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.195.85.34 (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Propaganda found in the SlavMacedonian-language version of this article!
I don't get it how Wikipedia did rewarded the Slav Macedonian language version of this article as a FEATURED ARTICLE (with a yellow star), while it has its neutrality disputed and needs cleanup. There is some wrong info in this article, like that Alexander the Great (an Ancient Macedonian) was an Ethnic (Slav) Macedonian, while he wasn't, as everyone knows that Alexander the Great had nothing to do with the Ethnic (Slav) Macedonians. Can someone look at the article and clean it up? Propaganda is unacceptable in all its forms and classifying the Slav Macedonian-language version of the article "Macedonians (Ethnic Group)" as a Featured Star Article when its neutrality is disputed, sends wrong messages to the readers of the Wikipedia. I already posted my notes on the talk page of this article but there are no responses yet. --85.75.182.146 (talk) 02:21, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

RE: Markovski
Markovski's story is one of irony. He initially wrote in Macedonian, identified himself as an ethnic Macedonian and was a staunch Macedonian nationalist, and actively participated in the language commissions of the 1940s. After he was imprisoned a number of times because of his political agitations, he went on to renounce everything that came to define his life and career. Markovski is a disgruntled defector who turned to historical revisionism in an attempt to justify his defection. Markovski was an unreliable political figure and was also widely ridiculed in the-then Socialist Macedonia, but was hailed a national treasure in Bulgaria where he also made it big. So it's no surprise he did what he did. The funniest thing is that if the Macedonians are the "result of a Comintern conspiracy", then Markovski himself is also the "result of a Comintern conspiracy". --101.112.183.106 (talk) 02:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

According to the Macedonian historian Academician Ivan Katardjiev, Macedonian political activists, who came from IMRO (United) and the Bulgarian Communist Party never managed to get rid of their pro-Bulgarian bias and on many issues opposed the pro-Yugoslav leaders, who held most of the political power. Pavel Shatev and Panko Brashnarov send a petition to the Bulgarian legation in Belgrade protesting the policies of the Yugoslav leadership and were imprisoned. In 1948 on a meeting of the Central committee of the Macedonaian Communist Party Dimitar Vlachov claimed, the decision by the IMRO (United) from 1932 on the formation of Macedonian ethnos was a political mistake. He was gradually pushed out of his political positions from the pro-Yugoslav circle around Lazar Kolishevski. Markovski, who in 1945 participated in the Commission for the Creation of the Macedonian Alphabet, himself stated prior to his death, that ethnic Macedonians and the Macedonian language were a result of Comintern policy. Metodi Shatarov avoided organising mass armed resistance against the Bulgarian authorities in Vardar Banovina, and there are indications that he was killed by Josip Broz Tito's agents in 1944. Shatorov's supporters were at the same time eliminated by the YCP, and heavily repressed for their anti-Yugoslav and pro-Bulgarian political positions. According to Katardjiev, they all practically felt themselves as Bulgarians untill end of life. You do not have a sufficient knowledge of the subject. Jingiby (talk) 05:32, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Why does this page even exist ?
Macedonia is a region of Greece, Slavic peoples and the Slavic language have absolutely no connection to the name Macedonia or the land/heritage of Macedonia.

So why does this exist ?

--Savakk (talk) 00:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Kutmichevitsa

 * Subsequently, the Sclaveni in Macedonia were incorporated into the Bulgarian Empire, and eventually, Kutmichevitsa became the second political and cultural center of Medieval Bulgaria.

Can the wording please be improved and wikified. Kutmichevitsa was an administrative region, not a geographical region per se. Also, it's unclear how exactly the people came to be 'incorporated'. Should this not be structured as: Sclaveni of Macedonia (region) → Bulgarian Empire after Macedonia (region) → Kutmichevitsa? --101.112.173.210 (talk) 23:52, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

For the regions of spreading the macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria
I would like to propose that Macedonians also live in Bulgaria and that there should be put a map where areas they live and they are concentrated at least by the census data from 1948,1953,1965,!! And also it should be puted a map for the areas where the ,,Slavic speakers of Northern Greece are living at least by the results from the Boechoten and other files in Wiki:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg «»File:Greece linguistic minorities.png«»--DraganKitanoski 22:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)» — Preceding unsigned comment added by DraganKitanoski (talk • contribs)

Edit request on 27 March 2013
178.223.56.53 (talk) 14:09, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Mdann52 (talk) 13:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 May 2013
Image:Igorjanev.JPG

Vladasrbije (talk) 23:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. -- El Hef  ( Meep? ) 01:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 31 May 2013
add among chapter Macedonians in History picture of current President such as Image:Igorjanev.JPG

178.222.53.126 (talk) 07:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done I cropped the image from his article as it is a much better headshot - added with this edit: . Thanks. Begoon &thinsp; talk  10:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

The designation Macedonian during the Middle ages and the early Ottoman Empire
I have added clarifications on this matter and also some academic sources that clearly explain the development of this issue as follows: During the Middle Ages, the designation Macedonian was used only in a geographical aspect and Macedonia's location had been forgotten and designated in areas mostly outside the ancient Macedonian kingdom. The term even vanished completely after the Ottoman conquest in 14th century, but began circulating on the Balkans in Western-influenced cultural contexts since the late 16th century again. However the idea of Macedonian identity arose outside the region of Macedonia during the 17th century, as such desination was applied at that time to some Balkan settlers in Hungary and Russia, involving the local Slavic population in Macedonia hardly in the second half of the 19th century.


 * The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century, John Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, p. 37.
 * Plundered Loyalties: World War II and the Civil War in Greek West Macedonia, Giannēs Koliopoulos, New York University Press, 1999, ISBN 0814747302, p. 1.
 * Entangled Histories of the Balkans: Volume One, Roumen Dontchev Daskalov, Tchavdar Marinov, BRILL, 2013, ISBN 900425076X, pp. 280-281. Jingiby (talk) 09:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, Slovenski Volk, I did not understand why sourced info I have added was deleted. The only sentence I have deleted and you readded was not sourced and dubious. More, now it is sourced, but my verification failed, as you can check. There is not such claim confirming the presence of separate regional Macedonian identity or the like. In provided by you now source is claimed that Macedonian was used in geographical and/or in administrative context in the Byzantine Empire. Check yourself on The Edinburgh History of the Greeks; 500-1250, pp. 293-294. More, on the same pages is explained, this term was applied to a persons like Basil I, who was of Armenian descent and lived in the theme of Macedonia, i.e. in ancient Thrace, that  confirms the fact, Macedonia's ancient location had been forgotten then. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 11:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are not editing according to 'sourced info", but making "liberal interpretations' of the evidence (not to accuse you of OR). John Fine never writes in his book that Macedonia was somehow 'forgotten" - but that there was no distinct ethnopolitical macedonian ethnicity - as im sure we're all aware. This Koiopolous author, im not sure what his credentials are, but he is decidedly ioncorrect. Macedonia did not disappear during ther Middle Ages, Utter nonsense. Rather it continued to be used frequently, as a geographic identifier. "Most references to Macedonians in Byzantine texts are in a geographical and administrative and not an ethnic sense. The Byzantine Macedonian may well have been of some other ethnicity; as long as he was from the 'land of the Macedonians', he could be regarded as Macedonian" - Whether Slav, Byzantine (ie Romaioi) or even Armenian, such as the Emperor basil. Pg 293 "History of the Greeks..", Curta. This is not contra to what I have said, and is from the High Middle Ages (!) It doesn;t matter what the region was called by the Turks, that's reflective of their administrative style - not because that somehow Macedonia was "forgotten"; and anyhow how the discourse over a 'new' Macedonian identity developing in the 17th century has nothing to do with the Medieval paragraph in discussion. It is already stated later that macedonia was in the Millet of Rum, and it is already stated that the poulation was called Bulgarians or simply Christians, so i really fail to see what your (twisted sourcing and broken English) additions have really added ? Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:42, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It is clear: Byzantine Macedonians lived in the Byzantine Macedonia, i.e. Thrace. Jingiby (talk) 06:43, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This fact above is undisputable and properly fits to the text.

The disappearing of the term Macedonia during Ottoman Empire period



 * I wonder why this fact was deleted from the text. Please check the next sources:
 * The ancient name 'Macedonia' disappeared during the period of Ottoman rule and was only restored in the nineteenth century originally as geographical term. The Oxford Handbook of the History of Nationalism, John Breuilly, Oxford University Press, 2013, ISBN 0199209197, p. 192.
 * Under Turkish rule Macedonia vanished completely from administrative terminology and survived only as a in the Greek oral traditions. Plundered Loyalties: World War II and the Civil War in Greek West Macedonia, Giannēs Koliopoulos, New York University Press, 1999, ISBN 0814747302, p. 1.
 * The region was not called "Macedonia" by the Ottomans, and the name "Macedonia" gained currency together with the ascendance of rival nationalism. Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question, Victor Roudometof, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0275976483, p. 89. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 15:38, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant and who cares what the Turks called Macaedonia ? (and anyway, look at this map Further, you're confusing the theme or administrative names with the region; and in any case has no significance on an ethnic level. It is merely a reflection of haphazard naming practices of conquering powers. The Byzantines had to contend with what they had. The 'theme of Macedonia from the 8th century could only include the region east of Thessaloniki because that's all they had (re-)conquered. This doesn't mean that Macedonia was forgoten. Bulgaria propper was actually called paristiron, or patzinakia becuase so many Turks were settled there. the theme of Serbia was actually in Duklja/ Zeta, whilst actual Serbia was in the theme of Sirmiun
 * And again, your POV'ingly adding irrelevant material in the paragraph on Medieval Macedonia regarding Ottoman times. There is more than adequate discussion on Ottoman times in the apporpriate section. It clearly states:

"After the final Ottoman conquest of the Balkans by the Ottomans in 15th century, all Orthodox Christians were included in a specific ethno-religious community under Graeco-Byzantine jurisdiction called Rum Millet. The belonging to this religious commonwealth was so important that most of the common people began to identify themselves as Christians.[75] However ethnonyms never disappeared and some form of primary ethnic identity was available.[76] This is confirmed from a Sultan's Firman from 1680 which describes the ethnic groups in the Balkan territories of the Empire as follows: Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Vlachs and Bulgarians.[77"
 * So again, please clarify how the redundant jibberish you insist on adding improving the article ? Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Please stop making nonconstructive edits like this and that. And also stop accusing me of adding jibberish info etc. All information provided by me is properly sourced, reliable and fits to the context of the section, clarifying it constructive. I think your edits, i.e. blind reverts are biased and prejudiced. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 07:06, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear Jingiby, please note that this is an article on Macedonians. Ill hapily discuss the rest with you on the resolution page .Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:28, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I am going to provide a new sources in support of my view:
 * By the beginning of the 9th century the theme of Macedonia, with its capital at Adrianople consisted not of Macedonian but of Thracian territories. During the Byzantine period the Macedonia proper corresponded to the themes of Thessalonica and Strymon. The Ottoman administration ignored the name of Macedonia. It was only revived during the Renaisance, when western schoolars rediscovered the ancient Greek geographical terminology. Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon: Studies in the Archaeology and History of Macedon, 650 BC - 300 AD, Robin J. Fox, Robin Lane Fox,  BRILL, 2011, ISBN 9004206507, p. 35.
 * Adrianople was an important hub during the Byzantine period and was at the center of the Thema Makedonikon, from where the Macedonian Dynasty (9th– 10th centuries) originated (see BYZANTIUM). Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. 2.
 * In antiquity and modern times, Adrianople belonged to Thrace, but all scholars agree that in Byzantine times Adrianople was the capital of the theme of Macedonia. Byzantine Macedonia: Identity Image and History, Roger Scott, John Burke, Australian Association for Byzantine Studies, Australian Catholic University, 2000, ISBN 1876503068, p. 67.
 * By the Middle ages Macedonia's location had been forgotten and designated in areas mostly outside the ancient Macedonian kingdom, vanishing completely after the Ottoman conquest.Plundered Loyalties: World War II and the Civil War in Greek West Macedonia, Giannēs Koliopoulos, New York University Press, 1999, ISBN 0814747302, p. 1.
 * The reason for specifying this period (late Ottoman rule) is that during the Middle Ages the geographical definition 'Macedonia' is somewhat vague; and with all but a few of the Byzantine writers the term comes to include the larger portion of Northern Thrace or what is today South Bulgaria, and often present day Thrace as well. History of Macedonia 1354-1833, Α. Ε. Vacalopoulos. Translated by Peter Megann, Institute for Balkan studies, Thessalonika, 1973, p. 3.
 * Over a certain period they (Byzantine authors) called the inhabitants of the Adrianople area " Macedonians" because at that time the Adrianople area was included in the theme (administrative region) of Macedonia. The troops of this theme were also often called Macedonian troops. Documents and materials on the history of the Bulgarian people, Dimitar Kyosev et al. Publ. House of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, 1969, Sofia, p. 6.
 * To sum up: During the Middle ages the name Macedonia was applied to identify an administrative area in the Byzantine Empire, which layed in territory located predominantly in today European Turkey. The Macedonian regional identification then was applied to the people, who lived in an area corresponding with the ancient region of Thrace, not with today region of Macedonia. Under the Ottomans, the geographical name and the designation "Macedonian" disappeared altogether, till the rise of nationalism during 19th century. Jingiby (talk) 11:49, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

To sum up, your arguements ar tangential and one-sided. You have quoted ad nauseum about the theme of macedonia being centred on Adrianople. im sure we're all aware of that, so you have blistered your fingers for nothing. yet you seem to be sticking you head in the sand about the nevertheless continued existence of a concept of a regional macedonia, no matter how vague or varied (there were no fixed "borders' back then). Theophanes the Confessor described Macedonian Sklavinia(18.4.4.5; pertaining to late 8th century) which were the free tribes outside Byzantine control; and you have modern (secondary sources) which also use the term in a regional sense to describe events pertaining to the borader region. Eg -  Eg Curta talks of "another Byzantine raid into Macedonia in 991. .. with a shift in centre of Power.. to Prespa (pg 242); whilst the Companion states the "bishop of Stobi, the capital City of Macedonia Secunda" (pg 559). When referring to the theme they specify clearly eg "Bulgarian troops raided the theme of Macedonia"(Curta pg 227). Notwithstanding your obvious confusion: we have clear and decisive opinion of a specialist: "Most references to Macedonians in Byzantine texts are in (both) a geographical or administrative and not an ethnic sense".. So it was used both in the strict, thematic sense, as well as a broader, regional sense. There is nothing left to discuss. Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The theme of Macedonia was created between 790 and 800. Afterwards, till the vanishing of that designation in the 15th century, for the Byzantines, Macedonia was located in Southern Thrace, where the Macedonians lived. Jingiby (talk) 04:42, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * irrelevant Slovenski Volk (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * More, when they sized the territory of today Republic of Macedonia in 11th century, they called it theme of Bulgaria and its inhabitants Bulgarians. They didn't called subsequently the inhabitants of their themes located on the territory of the former Roman Macedonia - Macedonians.Jingiby (talk) 05:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Shea (2008), pp. 55–60 might also be helpful for you two in this discussion. --220.253.199.38 (talk) 07:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Shea is hardly reliable source. He is simply ridiculous. For example the Byzantine historian Scylitzes describes the uprising under the leadership of Georgi Voyteh in 1072 in today Republic of Macedonia as led by Bulgarians, but the Byzantine soldiers from the administrative region (theme) Macedonia as Macedonians. Check here, please. The most spectacular example is Basil II. He was called the Macedonian, as he originate from Adrianople, i.e. Macedonia and the Bulgar-slayer after he conquered the territory of today Macedonia. Jingiby (talk) 07:44, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Proving what ? Doenst mean anything. DId you forget Serbs, GReeks, Bulgarians fought for Turks against their 'brothers' !?!?!Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but he's still better than Tsărnushanov, the MSI, promacedonia.org and all the other polemicists you cite. Despite what your opinion of Shea is (mine doesn't differ significantly), that section of his book is literally teeming with citations that could be followed up on. You may also want to consider reviewing a referencing guide so as to avoid being accused of "liberally interpreting sources" for the umpteenth teen. --220.253.199.38 (talk) 08:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Jingiby, you can state what you wish about Shea; but I ask you to negate the primary sources he alludes to, then. Whoever, these Macedonians referred to were (Slavs, GReeks, Vlahs, Armenians); they clearly show some notion of regiona/ habitational macedonian ethonymy remained, unrelated to the theme you are have become catatonic over Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:11, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Shea never can provide his original sources. More, they are nonexisting. Shea is recognised by other researcher as biased author and that fact is undisputable. The Routledge History of the Holocaust, Jonathan C. Friedman, Taylor & Francis, 2010, ISBN 0203837444, p. 273. ...a pro-Macedonian account is John Shea, Macedonia and Greece the struggle... Jingiby (talk) 11:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources tell us another story:
 * The migrations during the early Byzantine centuries also changed the meaning of the geographical term Macedonia, which seems to have moved to the east together with some of the non-Slavic population of the old Roman province. In the early 9th century an administrative unit (theme) of Makedonikon was established in what is now Thrace (split among Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey) with Adrianopleas its capital. It was the birthplace of Emperor Basil I (867–886), the founder of the so-called Macedonian dinasty in Byzantinum. Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. Iii.
 * Also as follows:
 * The first of these two groups was Bulgaro-Macedonains... The Slavs eventually assimilated them but the Bulgars' name survived. It denoted this Slavic group from the 9th century through the rest of medieval into modern times... Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle ages which appear in some modern works...Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today. The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century, John Van Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36-37.


 * This is also interesting:
 * When the barbarian invasions started in the fourth through seventh centuries AD in the Balkans, the Macedones and the other remnants of the Hellenes who lived in Macedonia were pushed to eastern Thrace, the area between Adrianople (presently the Turkish city of Edirne) and Constantinople. This area would be called theme of Macedonia by the Byzantines... whereas the modern territory of R. of Macedonia was included in the theme of Bulgaria after the destrution of Samuels Bulgarian Empire in 1018. Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Chris Kostov, Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 48.Jingiby (talk) 12:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

What a load of crap. The 'Macedones' stopped 'existing' shortly after Rome conquered Macedonia and Greece, and became "Romans". So fail # 1 of your supposedly 'good source'. Fail # 2 - there is no evidence that this population then moved to Thrace (neither historical nor archaeological); but there is clear evidence for continuity of some population in northern Albania, northwestern Macedonia (Ohrid-Prespa region) and much of the territories along the Via Egnatia from the 4th century to the 9th ! Moreover, you are quick to criticize other sources, yet you yourself produce questionable quality, clearly biased, and uninformed works by bulgarian and greek scholars whose work is not worth the paper its printed on. Nevertheless, I have modified the sentence to highlight that reference to Macedonians often referred to inhabitants of the theme. Now, given the clear primary and secondary sources referring to Macedonians outside the theme, I believe we should close this overly long discussion. Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are wrong. If I see, the last attestation about Macedones as an distinct ethnic entity is from the 4th century AD - Brill's Companion to Ancient Macedon: Studies in the Archaeology and History of Macedon, 650 BC - 300 AD, Robin J. Fox, Robin Lane Fox, BRILL, 2011, ISBN 9004206507, p. 35. More, to attack the Historical dictionary of Republic of Macedonia as unreliable source is frivolously. Also check Medieval Towns and Castles in the Republic of Macedonia - Ivan Mikulcik:  ...бидејќи градскиот живот во Македонија речиси целосно замрел. Преживеаното ромејско население избегало на југ или се повлекло во потешко пристапните планински тврдини... 27. Jingiby (talk) 06:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * No. The 'ethnicity' of any Balkan peoples in the 4th century Ad was nothing other than "Roman"; even though Greek language remained the main language in Greece and much of the East Mediterranean. And yes, local cults and traditions of course were not wiped away by Romans, but the people saw themselves as Romans. Secondary provincial identities did develop; but it was mostly through the self-identification of soldiers, legionaries, etc when fighting outside their birth land (sounds familiar ?!). There, they realized that they do have some commonalities, and that is when they voice their belonging to patria Illyria, patria Macedonia or patria Thracia, etc. Hatzopoulos is a good scholar, but his arguments are essentialist, and thus hopelessly out of date. There have been countless works on this subject, and you seem completely unaware of any of them.
 * Jingiby, not once have i ever seen you actually produce any tertiary -level academic papers on any subject matter. I really think you should try this, for someone who is as a prolific editor as you in Balkans articles. Then you might actually improve and advance articles Slovenski Volk (talk) 07:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Volk, it is unbelivable but the early Byzantine Diocese of Macedonia, that existed between 4th and 7th centuries, encompassed an enormous territory covering most of today Albania, Republic of Macedonia and Greece (with island of Crete but without Western Thrace), i.e. it included the provinces of Macedonia Prima, Macedonia Salutaris, Thessaly, Epirus vetus, Epirus nova, Achaea, and Crete. Jingiby (talk) 16:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:00, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Why is there quotation marks around the word origins? :

Why..? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.109.73 (talk) 12:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Extreme POV, original research, biased opinion etc.
I have removed the end of the following strange sentence: During the formative Middle Ages, references to "Macedonians" were varied, from geographical and administrative sense", to a more specific ethnic one - the 9th century historian Theophanes the Confessor categorized the numerous Slavic tribes in former Roman Macedonia as a 'Macedonian Sklavinia'. This is unbelivable! It implies Slav Macedonian ethnic identity during the early Middle ages. However all reliable sources confirm this process began 1,000 years later. Also Ohrid was located in Kutmichevitsa, Bulgarian province and even became later the capital of Bulgaria. It was described in the article as a Macedonian city outside Bulgarian borders. Macedonia then was simply a Byzantine province in Thrace. Ostrogorski was a biased Yugoslav scholar, and is out of date. Do not interprete primary sources as Theophanes the Confessor. There is any academic publication interpreting Macedonian Sclavinias as ethnic Macedonian ones, but they describe them as a regional Slavic tribal unions with Avars or Bulgars. Discuss at first your original ideas and gain consensus after supporting your exotic views with lot of contemporary reliable secondary and tertiary sources. Do not delete tertiary and secondary sources from the article, describing all as POV etc. This is vandalism.

Do not forget: "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century," John Van Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36-37. ''The first of these two groups was the Bulgaro-Macedonians... They were conquered in the late seventh century by the Turkic Bulgars. The Slavs eventually assimilated them, but the Bulgars’ name survived. It denoted this Bulgaro-Macedonian Slavic group from the 9th century through the rest of medieval into modern times... Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle ages which appear in some modern works...Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today.'' Thank you.Jingiby (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I am more than inclined here to agree with user Jingiby. The article on the ethnic Macedonians has been passed as adequate and accurate by many past editors. Meanwhile, user Slovenski Volk is providing many POV arguments, there is nothing wrong with that but Wikipedia is not the place for them. On a different, user Slovenski Volk has repeatedly used unacceptable language that is ad hominem. I suggest we drop the matter. Politis (talk) 20:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I like that Makedonci!! I will call you Makedonci from now onIdaeananvil (talk) 20:51, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * User:Idaeananvil, you can delete your comment because it is off-topic. Under Talk page guidelines, the guidelines include this: state that, "Off-topic posts: If a discussion goes off-topic, the general practice is to hide it by using the templates [...] It is still common to simply delete gibberish, rants about the article subject (as opposed to its treatment in the article) and test edits, as well as harmful or prohibited material...". Your comment seems to classify as 'gibberish'. Politis (talk) 14:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Politis please shed further light, in your wisdom. Cite specific examples for all to see my 'biased edits' Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Slovenski Volk, my recommendation was to a comment made by User:Idaeananvil. I am not sure how you thought it was about yourself, unless User:Idaeananvil is your Sock Puppet. Politis (talk) 09:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Quoting from references provided to correct text in article
I quoted from The Chronicles of Theophanes as provided in the reference of the article. [] Politis (talk) 19:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Genetic lineage
“Anthropologically, Macedonians possess genetic lineages postulated to represent Balkan prehistoric and historic demographic processes .Such lineages are also typically found in other South Slavs, especially Bulgarians, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrins, but also to the northern Greeks and Romanians.”

It is completely unschientific, to support the existence of a nation on genetic lineages. (This reminds us some Nazi methods). All the people in Balcan may have some common genetic data, but it doesn’t prove anything. Why the northern Greeks are distinguished from the rest of the Greeks? It can’t be proved that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, and it can’t be proved that the modern Greeks are descendants of the ancient Greeks. I think that this paragraph must be deleted as unschientific.Jestmoon(talk) 13:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Slaves from the region Macedonia in the times of Ottoman invasion
Tn the times of Ottoman invasion in the geographic region Macedonia in the late 14 century, they inslave a lot of local christian population. That were sold in the Crete island on the venetians. The venetian notary wrighted in there paper for the deal there names, place of origin and ethnic belongs. Majority of that slaves from macedonia in late 14 century selfidentificated as bulgarians, they were and some greeks, vlahs and albanians.

h t t p ://promacedonia.org/mp/mp_7_2_1.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.203 (talk) 14:03, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Deleted NPOV intro. Biased POV added
The leading section was changed 20 days ago here. That version was stable and sourced, but the source was deleted too. It read as follows: ''The Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци; transliterated: Makedonci) – also referred to as Slav Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs[35] – are a South Slavic ethnic group who are primarily associated with the Republic of Macedonia. They speak the Macedonian language, a South Slavic language. About two thirds of all ethnic Macedonians live in the Republic of Macedonia and there are also communities in a number of other countries.'' Now it suggests that all Slavic speakers into the region are Ethnic Macedonians, but they aren't a Slavic people, only speak Slavic language etc. That version implies a kind of Slavic Macedonian nationalism, i.e. the Macedonian Slavs are not a Slavs, they inhabit the whole area, not only the Republic's one, etc. This new version of the leading paragraph is biased, and the stable version was more neutral and plausible. 78.159.147.70 (talk) 06:24, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Some -important!- additions and changes...
Since the page is protected and i cannot edit it, i respectfully ask for the addition (preferably after the "Following the collapse of Yugoslavia, the issue of Macedonian identity has again emerged." sentence) of the sentence: Kiro Gligorov, the first democratically elected president of the newly independent country, while in office and on camera, stated "We are Slavs, there is no connection between us and Alexander the Great, we came here in the 6th century after Christ". Also i think that the "Moreover, western historians are quick to point out that in fact all modern nations are recent, politically motivated constructs based on creation "myths"." sentence should be rewritten as "Moreover, some western historians point out that in fact all modern nations are recent, politically motivated constructs based on creation "myths"." (i.e., adding the word "some" and deleting the words "are quick to", so that the "Moreover, western historians are quick to point out that [...]" becomes "Moreover, some western historians point out that [...]"). Thank you (i am Greek, by the way, i hope that this fact is not a problem for any responsible editor...). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.95.84 (talk) 21:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Transliteration of Македонци
I feel like Македонци should be transliterated as "Makedontsi", your average English speaker isn't going to know how the c is pronounced, and ц is often romanized as ts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Last edited by: (talk • contribs) 21:05, 4 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's not an English word so English speakers would naturally be unsure as how to pronounce it. There is a link to Romanization of Macedonian immediately preceding the word. We could maybe add IPA to further help. Using 'c' is in line with how words are typically transliterated for Macedonian on Wikipedia, as in Strumica. -- Local hero talk 21:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Native population vs diaspora
The infobox has been devised to separate diaspora from native lands outside Republic. This can cause confusion since in cases such as Greece and Bulgaria, it is known to be the case that there is both an autochtonous population in addition to the presence of economic migrants from the Republic. Provided it is specified in the article that those surrounding territories are a homeland to people identifying as Macedonian, the list on the infobox can be combined. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 13:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The section "Native population in the Balkans outside of Republic of Macedonia" is very incorrect, since in the sources there's no information regarding the "native population". For example the number 1,654 for Bulgaria indicates the people, living in Bulgaria that are self-identified as part of the Macedonian ething group and 1,091 of them are Macedonian citizens (99% born in Republic of Macedonia, studying working or living in Bulgaria). I think that this section should be removed and the information combined with the countries below. --StanProg (talk) 18:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. But unless I'm mistaken, if they were counted in the census of one state then they are considered a part of the permenent population because their absence from the homeland state means they would not be counted there, so they have to be accounted for. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 18:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You're mistaken. They could be counted in more than one country, because the censuses are in different periods. For example the latest census in Republic of Macedonia was in 2002, and in Bulgaria in 2011. The people that are Bulgarian citizens and have lived in Bulgaria for the last 12 months are counted. In the "Law on Census in the Republic of Bulgaria in 2011" have a lot of articles, for example in the census are included "Bulgarian citizens, including those with dual citizenship which permanently live abroad, but at the critical moment of the census are on the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria" & also "European Union citizens and foreigners authorized for short or long-term residence under Art. 23 para. 2 and par. 3 pt. 1 of the Law on Foreigners in the Republic of Bulgaria after January 31, 2010, except for persons under p. 4". Bulgaria have 58,608 Bulgarian citizens (gained citizenship in the period 2002-2014) which were born on the territory of Republic of Macedonia and some of them do actually live in Bulgaria and/or are permanent residents. The fact is that we have no information what part of those 1,654 "ethnic Macedonians" from 2011 census are native population (born in Bulgaria), and the number of 1,091 people in Bulgaria (from the same census) with a "Republic of Macedonia citizenship" indicates that the ones from the native population are not a majority. --StanProg (talk) 22:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. But note that this could be the same for all ethnic group articles, this many in their homeland, that many in the neighbouring country, another figure in Canada or Australia, yet the surveys all take place on separate years. Ascertaining an exact or even accurate figure is impossible here. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that accurate figure is impossible, but we can quote the census results, which are more close the the actual situation than some kind of "estimates". --StanProg (talk) 23:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd go along with my original suggestion. Get rid of the mini-headings, produce figure plus year/source against country. A footnote in each case where we know it to be impermanent may be a good solution. I mean when you take countries like the United States and the UK with their world-famous universities, you just know that they accommodate thousands of nationals of all countries that have no intention to remain in that country once the qualification is achieved. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Is there a chance we can change that "Native population in the Balkans outside of Republic of Macedonia:" to something else, more convenient, like maybe "within the region of Macedonia" or something. - Phill24th (talk) . 10:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If we make such section, we should add the same for the "Bulgarians within the region of Macedonia", Greeks, Albanians, etc, since the region is multi-national. I think we should stick to the coutnry borders, not a geographical region.--StanProg (talk) 11:56, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Phill24th's suggestion wouldn't be incorrect, just as you say tiresome in that statistics would have to be produced for every nation. I think we're looking at a raw country+figure+year option. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, I will merge the country data below and will try to find the year of the censuses and include it in the refrence note. --StanProg (talk) 18:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * May be it's better idea to put only the Census data, and in the reference note to indicate the estimates based on different sources? For example for Poland 2008 census there are 316 Macedonians, while at the table we see 2,000 – 4,500 (based on MFA of Republic of Macedonia estimates & on some holocaust book). What do you think? --StanProg (talk) 19:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * In a word, perfect. You've done a grand job. Yes, there is no way around the discrepancies so the facts as they are now bode well. I'm glad you did the practical task because my command of editing infoboxes isn't that great. I've tried a few times but previews have revealed my efforts are best not saved! :))) --Oranges Juicy (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Improving the article
I have slightly improved the article. It generally needs a of of work.Ron1978 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's all well and nice, but you need to have in mind that Wikipedia is not a reliable source.-- L a v e o l  T 07:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Pictures!
There is nither one picture of IMRO member, but there is several of comunists........... Nema edna slika na vmrovec, a ima nekolko na komunisti........... Vaka se menuva identitet! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.174 (talk) 18:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Identities
This section will hitherto be shortened and made more relevant. Debates in state building apparatus of Sklavenias are tangential at best.Slovenski Volk (talk) 03:11, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

This important piece should be added to the article
If this doesnt get added, then it will look like pov. This piece adds to the argument and that why it is clearly essential: If anything it will only help get the reader closer to forming his own opinion, and in general adds evidence to the argument:

Venko Markovski, writer, poet and Communist politician from Macedonia, who in 1945 participated in the Commission for the Creation of the Macedonian Alphabet and once wrote in the Macedonian language and published what was the first contemporary book written in standardized Macedonian, stated in an interview for Bulgarian National Television only seven days prior to his death, that ethnic Macedonians and the Macedonian language do not exist and that they were a result of Comintern manipulation.


 * dear users, please remember this is not a forum, but an encyclopaedia. Make comments relevant as pertains to editing of article; not personal sentiments and pointless anecdotes Slovenski Volk (talk) 07:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

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Toše Proeski as "Slavic celebrity"?
The late singer has an Aromanian identity, an identity close to Romania, Italy, Spain, France. I don't think that he deserves a mention in the article.
 * As a Macedonian identity. Aromanians have been part of Macedonian identity since ancient and medieval times. from Nikulitsa, Pitu Guli, Yane Al-Sandi to Alchibiad Diamandi. In fact, legio tsintsi (v) macedonica was populated in romania and besarabia, and not the opposite. Aromanians are constitutional people in Macedonian statute with same rights as anyone else. that can not be a case in albania, greece, bulgaria, romania, serbia, where they are considered as albanians, greeks, bulgars, romanians and serbs.89.205.59.148 (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Genetics for ethnic groups RfC
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians ARE not proper exonyms
First of all - those 3 links are cherrypicked to support Greek POV. For PERSONS of separate ethnicity. Only Greeks have a distinction between "their" Macedonians and "Slav" Macedonians. But Greeks use Slavophone Greeks, not Slav Macedonians! Secondly - it is offensive that there's not a single other ethnicity called Serb Slavs, or Slav Poles, or Russian Slavs, or English Celts, ... BTW, this is resolved matter in WP:MOSMAC - "The same rules are to be used in an analogous fashion for sub-articles containing "Macedonian(s)" as an ethnic name (e.g. "Macedonians in country X")." And this is not an article about "a citizen body in same state" - it is an article about Macedonians (ethnic group) living in various countries around the globe.

Finally, if an exonym is offensive for the people in question it should not be put in the WP article, e.g. would you put Negro or Colored or... at the top of the article about African_Americans? Kirev (talk) 21:59, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi Kirev. I am aware of the MOSMAC, so please keep the indignation down, it won't help. On what you perceived as "offensive", well, as you probably know, the use of "Macedonian" at all by the "Macedonian Slavs" is considered "offensive" by a good many of my countrymen. If we start dealing with articles on the basis of preferences and likes and dislikes, they will degenerate into edit- and flamewars (and have done so multiple times in the past). That is what MOSMAC and the other guidelines are here to guard against. So let's take matters calmly: the news articles in question refer to "Macedonian Slavs" in juxtaposition with Albanians who live in the Republic of Macedonia. Both ethnic groups are "Macedonians" in the sense of being citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, and the distinction between "Slavic Macedonians" or plain "Macedonians" makes as much sense in such a context as in the distinction between "Slavic Macedonians" and "Greek Macedonians" when applied to Greek Macedonia or to the wider region of Macedonia. This is exactly in the spirit of MOSMAC, where in the case of ambiguity, qualifiers have to be used, and exactly in the spirit of WP:VERIFY, since these are global news outlets and record established English-language usage. Unless of course you believe that the qualifier "Slavic" is inaccurate or pejorative, in which case there's really no point discussing any further... Constantine  ✍  22:47, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with Cplakidas. Both "Macedonian Slavs" and "Slavic Macedonians" are widely used in the literature, and in a non-pejorative sense.  I don't see any issue with including them in the lede. Athenean (talk) 06:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Macedonians in Serbia
The present serbian municipalites Presevo, Bujanovac and Trgoviste are part of the geographic region Macedonia. Therefore baced ot the claims of the artical that all slav speaking population in the region Macedonia are macedonians... you got to include the slav speaking population in this serbian municipalites Presevo, Bujanovac, Trgoviste in the part for a macedonians in Serbia. Who have no rights of political representation in Serbia, who are not recognized as minority, who have no rights for a education and cultural expretion on there native macedonian language, and macedonian ethnicity. Otherwise all this construct for a ëthnic macedonians" is wrong..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.193 (talk) 13:21, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Macedonian language
The macedonian language could not be a situeted in the middel between Bulgarian and Serbian if the Torlak dialect is situeted in the middle between bulgarian and serbian language? This is paradox!!! Between so called macedonian and serbian is the torlak dialect, they not have any other contact beyond the torlak dialect. How could the macedonian be in the midle of bulgarian and serbian if macedonian not contact with the serbian but with the torlak who is the transnition?????? Most important any sources for this clime???? Any sources for the clime that the serbo-croatian is the second closet language to the macedonians, so made the thirth, the fiftyfifth most close language to the macedonian?

Neutrality not mean to say something in the middle! Its mean to tell the truth!!! This is a significant thing that is forgoten in the all article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.140 (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Macedonian Slavs
Why should some editors remove this? There are sources to back use of "Macedonian Slavs". Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree Ktrimi991, it shud be put back up as it is widely used. N.Panamevris (talk) 08:25, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

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I suggest that the pic of Vergina Sun "flag" be replaced with the official flag of this ethnic group as this flag was used between 1992-1995 & is not current. N.Panamevris (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

"Flag of Macedonia" - Breach of WIPO Intellectual Property Laws
Good day,

With the "Macedonians (ethnic group)" page, there is a flag titled "The Flag of the Republic of Macedonia between 1992 and 1995. This flag uses the Vergina Sun symbol/emblem.

The Vergina Sun symbol/emblem is a World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) registered state emblem of Greece: WIPO Greece GR1 Emblem. Three variants are registered with WIPO 6ter (GR1, GR2 and GR3 variants, under Vienna classification 01.01.01, 01.01.02, 01.01.10, 01.01.17, 01.03.02, 01.03.15, 24.11.25, 29.01.02, 29.01.11).

WIPO is a self-funded agency of the United Nations, which the (Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia is a member: WIPO FYR Macedonia Membership as of 1991. IP is protected in law, and as such the flag posted is in breach of WIPO IP laws, which each member country is required to abide by (unless permission is given by the owner country; in this case Greece/Hellenic Republic). This flag is also politically contested between Greece and (FYR) Macedonia, and is also not the current flag or coat of arms of (FYR) Macedonia.

As such, can I ask that the flag is replaced with the current flag ?

Thank you for your time.

The official state's name is FYROM (Former Yugoslavic Republic Of Macedonia). Macedonia is a hellenic district located on the Northern Hellenic mainland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.251.1.1 (talk) 11:07, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 7 external links on Macedonians (ethnic group). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040621055714/http://www.stat.gov.mk/english/glavna_eng.asp?br=18 to http://www.stat.gov.mk/english/glavna_eng.asp?br=18
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303193114/http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/01/22/publ.Document.88215.pdf to http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/01/22/publ.Document.88215.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060723084106/http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF to http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111004020646/http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R11.aspx to http://censusresults.nsi.bg/Reports/2/2/R11.aspx
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.wipo.int/cgi-6te/guest/ifetch5?ENG%206TER%2015%201151315-REVERSE%200%200%201055%20F%20125%20431%20101%2025%20SEP-0%2FHITNUM%2CB%20KIND%2FEmblem%20
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060723084106/http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF to http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF

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External links modified
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I have just modified 10 external links on Macedonians (ethnic group). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080626055957/http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc to http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090112145417/http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/innvbef_en/arkiv/tab-2007-05-24-05-en.html to http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/innvbef_en/arkiv/tab-2007-05-24-05-en.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080626055957/http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc to http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080626055957/http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc to http://www.mfa.gov.mk//Upload/ContentManagement/Files/Broj%20na%20makedonski%20iselenici%20vo%20svetot.doc
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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Macedonians (ethnic group). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=26258490&lId=2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041028074111/http://www.crc.nsw.gov.au/statistics/Sect1/Table1p08Aust.pdf to http://www.crc.nsw.gov.au/statistics/Sect1/Table1p08Aust.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060405204342/http://wohnbevoelkerung_in_deutschland.know-library.net/ to http://wohnbevoelkerung_in_deutschland.know-library.net/

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Editing the png "Regions where ethnic Macedonians live within Albania"
Hello, I just wanted to say, that the png in the page for Macedonians (ethnic group) shows a macedonian minority in Albania, which was recognized as a bulgarian one. I'm talking about this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#/media/File:MalaPrespaiGoloBrdo.png And here's the news: http://www.novinite.com/articles/184224/Albania+has+Recognized+the+Bulgarian+Minority+in+the+Country http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/13/c_136675455.htm AtanasByulbyulev 09:01, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The news you posted do not confirm your sayings that Albania has recognized its Macedonian minority as Bulgarian one. The news you posted report about the recognition of a Bulgarian minority, along with 8 other minorities in the country, including the Macedonian one. -- ❤ S ILENT R ESIDENT  ❤ 12:38, 15 October 2017 (UTC)