Talk:Macedonians in Albania

Bulgarians in Albania???
This article is about macedonians in albania NOT bulgarians. Bulgarians are a seperate group of people and officially there is no bulgarian minority in albania. Neither is their a substantial section of the population who speaks bulgarian. Where are these bulgarians?P m kocovski (talk) 20:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Their ethnicity is disputed especially since a substantial part of them self-declare as Bulgarians. I know you don't like it, but that is not a valid reason to remove information which is on the subject and suits WP:NPOV as it presents both points of view. -- L a v e o l  T 23:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It funny that you have used "some scholars and bulgarian institutions" All of the sources provided are bulgarian, so "some bulgarian scholars would be more appropriate. This article is about the Macedonians in Albania, who speak Macedonian. Not about Bulgarian Albanians, if you want an article about the Bulgarians in Macedonia than you should start one with the followign title "bulgarians in Albania". We cannot allow a few "scholars" from bulgaria to dictate what nationality these people are. these same scholars believe ethnic Macedonians to be Bulgarians as well, are you suggesting that on the page for ethnic macedonians we should have the statements "Some scholars and Bulgarian institutions consider these people to be Bulgarians".???? This is ridiculous! how can a few "scholars" in a foreign country dictate to people what their nationality they are??? It would be incorrect for the article to state that many of them identify as "bulgarians". Could you please provide a reliable source for this?? as if believe it is a point of veiw push. It not about liking or not liking what you have written, it is innapropriate for this article and for the reasons (which i have just stated) i believe it should be removed, Until further discussion. P m kocovski (talk) 05:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Laveol, what you are saying is some of these people are Macedonians who identify as Bulgarians, as opposed to being Bulgarian. I think you are confused.  Balkan Fever  08:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What I'm saying is that part of those people are Bulgarians who self-identify as Bulgarians. And the whole Torbesh issue is disputed as well. -- L a v e o l  T 10:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The people focused on in this article are the Macedonians who self-identify as Macedonians. Hence the title. Bulgarians have nothing to do with this article.  Balkan Fever  10:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The official statment of Albanian govermant is that there is not any Bulgarian minorety in Albania!--Makedonij 17:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed tag
I added the Neutrality disputed tag because there is a POV that these people are Bulgarians, which should be mentioned. Preslav (talk) 19:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do they,are you serious??Stop POV pushing,first read References,Macedonians are recognised minority and Bulgarians are not.That is not the same!Maybe you should put that tag on Ethnic Macedonians to.Remember this is not Bulgaraia.--Makedonij (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No matter how ridiculous you may find the Bulgarian POV on this, the fact is that this POV exists. I am not saying that these people are Bulgarians, I am saying that there are people who say they are. I have no personal opinion on this because I don't know the facts well enough to have one. Preslav (talk) 05:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And how do you find this out?I mean that they are Bulgarians?Why becouse 800 of them took Bulgarian Passport??HAHA,I acctualy have 3 passports but that doesn't change my nationality!!Oh i forgot there is no such thing like nationality in Bulgaria,right,"one state one nation" and no minorities,Hasan Hasani is Hristo Hristov!!--Makedonij (talk) 17:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest that you check the meaning of nationality and ethnicity. Mine is Dutch, and European, by the way. I agree with you that the treatment of minorities in Bulgaria can be improved. Preslav (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well doesnt the relevan bulgarian POV go on Bulgarians in Albania? What needs to be done to prove that these people are macedonians not bulgarians? Bulgarians also claim that macedonians are etho-politically disorientated bulgarians, is that really necessary? Especially when these people are clearly bulgarians? PMK1 (talk) 06:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't need to prove anything here, just respect that a significant group of people has a different opinion. Preslav (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There was a time when this was one article with both POVs in it. Then PMK came and wanted it to have only his POV. That's the reason behind it. I personally think that there should be one article with both views, but it doesn't suit some contributors.-- L a v e o l  T 13:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Why don't we also have an article called "Slavs of the Republic of Macedonia" where we explain Bulgaria's (idiotic) view? You may consider the Bulgarian view important, but in reality it is just a fringe theory.  Balkan Fever  13:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the view abou Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria is fringe as well, but an article still exists, ey :) -- L a v e o l  T 13:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever you say, Bozhidar.  Balkan Fever  07:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey Janez Bond 008,stop pushing,you dont want to put tag on greek page,you dont want to end disscusion on Macedonians in Bulgaria,you just fallow Macedonians editors and denideing every thing,and this must stop,i will report this to someone neutral adminsitrator as soon as find one,and you dont read references becouse you are ???.

Macedonian minority in Albania is protected by law,recognised by low,have their own member in parliment,own major in PUSTEC,own poltical party which is called Macedonian aliance,and every thing has source by Albanian state,Macedonian state and many neutral European assotiations.If my English would be bether,you wouldn't have a chance!!!!Makedonij (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There was a time when this was one article with both POVs in it. Then PMK came and wanted it to have only his POV.?? How relevant is the POV of another country which doesnt even border albania? They believe that macedonians are etho-politically disorientated bulgarians! There are two Slavic Minorities in East Albania, the Macedonians and the Gorani! How convienient that bulgaria believes they are bulgarians! !!! PMK1 (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, part of them do self-identify as Bulgarians. Tell them not to do so - isn't it annoying?-- L a v e o l  T 11:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the best way to treat the Bulgarian POV in this article is in the same way the Macedonian POV on Samuil of Bulgaria is treated. Preslav (talk) 12:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well,acctualy,we dont need to prove nothing here,for that there is a court in Strasbourg,and Bulgaria is well knowed there,for human rights,for minority issues,for denideing Macedonian nation.So why do we bodther whit this wikinonsence??? The Laveol pushing thing is ower looked by Moreshi and P.Fut, he is not editing articles,he is just reverting them,and denideing every single Macedonian thing, so if administrators dont care of that why should we write here any way??? Ta qpqa none at bajgane e madjiri.Gospod ke im sudi niv!--Makedonij (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Would you be kind enough to translate the last two sentences? -- L a v e o l  T 16:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes a part of them may choose to identify as Bulgarians, that is fine. What is not fine would be having bulgarian information saying that the Macedonians and Gorani are infact etho-politically disorientated bulgarians. Bulgarian POV, which claims that the Macedonians and gorani people's are in fact bulgarians is unacceptable and proposterous. Claims like that are reminiscent of San Stefano Bulgaria. PMK1 (talk) 05:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Interestingly we don't have such things in the article. Actually we have an Albanian saying something like this. The whole ethnic disorientated stuff sounds like rants cause you've been repeating it time and time again for no reason. Noone's claiming this. -- L a v e o l  T 12:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok,let use some logic here, becouse i dont se that Laveol is useing it(sory). I live my whole life in Slovenia and i stated many times that i'm Slovenian, when achiving nacionality, when serving an army and when i recive my first passport and so on, that das not change my self determination of my real ethincity, i'm simpley Macedonian and when i recived passport and ID ,every where i have a choice for self detreminate as MACEDONIAN.!!
 * So if some Macedonians from Albania took 800 Bulgarian passports that das not make them Bulgarians. You should first have to addmit that, there is no such thing as self detrmination in Bulgaria!--Makedonij (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I can hardly understand a word. I gues you're trying to say that there is no self-determination in Bulgaria which in all means is ridiculous. -- L a v e o l  T 19:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes i know, i hardly understand you to, but that is not point! The point (one of them) is that Bulgaria gives passport to every body and then it claims thet all of them are Bulgarians. As i say i've stated a lott of time that i'm Slovenian, also i say to you here "I'm Slovenian", but that das not change my nationality!! My nationality is steel MACEDONIAN!--Makedonij (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way on another talkpage you said you lived in Serbia. Which one is it? -- L a v e o l  T 20:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Se my user page! And my mother is from Bosilegrad. LOL ,Happy now?!--Makedonij (talk) 20:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So are you half bulgarian or serb? Or are you one of the Macedonians from the Prohor Pčinjski? PMK1 (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * See nationalities in Bosilegrad, my mother is one of them!Makedonij (talk) 15:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights + Famous Maks
If anyone has a source for famous Macedonians in Albania, add them.

Also, I found an excellent source about the current situation for Macedonians in Albania (someone please update the article since I cannot):


 * Finally, Albania recognizes a Greek and a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians and Greeks outside these minority regions are denied the minority rights granted in the south, including minority classes at state schools. The 2000 Himara municipal election tensions were related to an effort of the Greek minority to have its existence recognized, which was successful insofar as even the OSCE ODIHR reported that “in Himara, … there is a Greek-speaking minority.” In a statement to the 2000 OSCE Implementation Review meeting, in response to a related GHM/MRG-G statement, Albania declared that “the boundaries of minority zones result solely from the course of Albania’s history.” In the forthcoming census, Albania did not include questions on national identity and religion (unlike in previous ones) to avoid seeing its official policy on minorities refuted by census data, even though ECRI recommended the inclusion of such questions.

source: http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/bhr/english/special_issues/CEDIME-unwgm2001/un%20wgm%20ghm-mrgg%20statement%203a%2014-5-01.docMactruth (talk) 23:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

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Sources modified on Macedonians in Albania
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Notable individuals
Koci Xoxe was a Macedonian or a Bulgarian. This way including him in this list doesn't help so much. John Koukouzelis's mother was Bulgarian while for his father little is known. Elsie says Koukouzelis was a Macedonian but this claim is unbelievable because in that time Macedonian ethnicity wasn't created yet. Elsie is a tertiary source who doesn't explain where he found the Macedonian origin. What's the most important thing, no one has the same thought with him. There are also Trajan Gjorgjiovski and Mitre Kolevski. Their source, Makedonium doesn't say they are Macedonians or were born in Albania. It says only there is a school bearing their name in Pustec. I don't put on question their Macedonian origin, but a source which explains they were born in Albania is really needed.XMMCx (talk) 08:32, 15 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I've accepted in good faith the offline source claiming he was Bulgarian. The other sources say Macedonian. I added a note clarifying that he is also considered Bulgarian to this article, based on notes already used in the Macedonians (ethnic group) article for individuals with disputed origin.
 * The link on the John Koukouzelis article does not link to Macedonians (ethnic group) - it links to Macedonia (region) and Slavic peoples.
 * That's a valid point about Gjorgjiovski and Kolevski. I agree to remove them. -- Local hero talk 03:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

When talking about Xoxe, I doubt if he really was a Bulgarian. You know there is no Bulgarian in Albania, and what is the most important thing there is only a Bulgarian source which makes this assumption. I'm going to search for some sources about Xoxe's origin and if I don't find any additional source backing a possible Bulgarian origin, we can remove it. The biography articles must have only reliable material.XMMCx (talk) 07:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I searched about a possible Bulgarian origin of Xoxe but didn't find anything. To me it's clear that it isn't part of mainstream scholarship. This way I see it right to keep only the Macedonian one.XMMCx (talk) 21:26, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, I removed the note from this article. -- Local hero talk 15:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

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Torbesh
The Torbeshi are a distinct ethnic group from Macedonians. What Macedonian historiography misconstrues should not be viewed as the general POV of scholarship, Alltan (talk) 17:12, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * We go based on sources, not your opinions. -- Local hero talk 03:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not mk.wiki. Please revert yourself, the Torbeshis' are not Macedonians and have never identified as such. Their separate ethnic status is precisely based on their distancing from the Macedonian ethnicity. Macedonian historiography is absolutely unhelpful here. Alltan (talk) 10:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If that's an actual argument, then I have a lot of work to do on removing the Albanian historiographic sources you've added everywhere. Since I don't believe it is an actual argument, we'll stick to sourced content and not your own analysis of the situation. Some reading for you confirming the existence of Macedonians in Golo Brdo: ex1, ex2, ex3, ex4. Thanks. -- Local hero talk 17:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide sources which talk about Muslim Macedonian speakers' in Albania identifying as ethnic Macedonians? Alltan (talk) 16:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The Golo Brdo article explains the research of Novik regarding the identity of the local Muslim Slavs there including Macedonian identification. We also have heavily Muslim municipalities like Shishtavec and Zapod that have ethnic Macedonian populations per the last census. Other sources:
 * This link from my previous comment: "Macedonian Christians from Mala Prespa enjoy the status of an ethnic minority; the Muslim Macedonians from Golo Brdo and Gora are denied this right"
 * Macedonians of Islamic Religion in the Context of Identity Theories: "Thereby, the Macedonians of Islamic religion in Dolna Reka area in the Reka region and also in the Debar region (as far as Golo Brdo) distinguish themselves by a particular Macedonian national awareness"
 * Indigenous Peoples: An Encyclopedia of Culture, History, and Threats to Survival: "whereas those [Macedonians] residing in Golo Brdo are principally Muslim."
 * Source from UKIM in which Macedonian-Albanian Kimet Fetahu writes that Macedonians in Albania are Muslims and Christians:
 * The Ilinden association of Macedonians in Albania considers Gorani and the Muslim Slavs of Golo Brdo to be Macedonians:
 * Deutsche Welle Macedonian source about Macedonians in Gora:
 * -- Local hero talk 01:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I should have been more clear in that I meant Golloborde in Albania specifically.
 * Let's go through the sources.
 * 1. This is a 8th grade schoolbook quote excerpt.
 * 2. The source is from MANU and the quote you have given does not refer to Albania.
 * 3. Again the quote you have given does not mention Albnania, and besides it is wrong since almost all persons who identify as Macedonians in Golloborde (both in Albania and in North Macedonia) are Orthodox Christians.
 * 4. Source from UKIM is problematic because Kimet Fetahu is known for his exaggeration claims about Macedonians and more generally minorities in Albania: Fetahu has made exaggerated estimates about the size of minority groups in Albania forming 35% of the total population. He has also stated that Macedonians in Albania number between 100,000 and 130,000.
 * 5. The Ilinden association is not RS.
 * 6. Irrelevant Alltan (talk) 06:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Also since you brought up Novik's research:
 *  Alltan (talk) 06:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, so you're narrowing the goalposts. Either way, there is support for existence of a Muslim Macedonian population in both Gora and Golloborda, yet you continue to remove "Islam" from the infobox.
 * Focusing just on Golloborda, I've already pointed out the support:
 * Novik's team recorded four main options for self-identifications among the Slavs: Makedonci, Muslimane, Turci, and Naši. The first option there means "Macedonian" in Macedonian language. As you may know, this was pretty significant research of the Golloborda area and I'm not sure what more you need here.
 * Nonetheless, Myths and Mythical Spaces is published by Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht ("Macedonian Christians from Mala Prespa enjoy the status of an ethnic minority; the Muslim Macedonians from Golo Brdo and Gora are denied this right").
 * Macedonians of Islamic Religion in the Context of Identity Theories from MANU discusses "the Debar region (as far as Golo Brdo)" and the Macedonian national awareness there.
 * I see Indigenous Peoples: An Encyclopedia of Culture, History, and Threats to Survival ("whereas those [Macedonians] residing in Golo Brdo are principally Muslim") is cited on many WP articles (see here).
 * Fetahu may be biased but he is a Golo Brdo native. The Ilinden association is not RS but again claims to advocate for the group of people in question. Regardless, the other information presented should alleviate your concerns. Best. -- Local hero talk 20:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know about any goalposts, however I do know about source precision:
 * 1. In the quote you have provided, the author does not say Macedonian speaking Muslims identify using the term Makedonci. He says Slavs do, and after that excludes the Muslims who use Turci and Muslimani. So this source is in fact claiming the opposite of what you say it does.
 * 2. Now, this quote is clearly used by authors to display the feeling of certain Macedonian authors of a supposed restricted right to ethnic self identification. Nonetheless it is a flawed view as Albania has officially recognized many minorities (including the Macedonian one) as living all over the country. In fact, Gora (an entirely Muslim region) itself is included in this article because a portion of its inhabitants did identify as Macedonians in the 2011 Albanian census. So, this source is not only not RS to be used in the way you have put it, but it also is demonstrably wrong.
 * 3. The quote you have provided does not mention Albania, in fact it explicitly states that it is referring to North Macedonia:
 * A further excerpt from the source in fact establishes the ethnic self identification of Macedonian-Speaking Muslims in Albania:
 * 4. Though I can't access the full quote in the source, it is absolutely erroneous in its assumption that Macedonians in Golloborde are principally Muslim. A quick review of the Golloborde article as well as this article is enough to dispel this assertion as false.
 * 5. My concerns are not alleviated, they are in fact heightened. The sources you provided have at various times supported opposite ideas from those you have brought forth. I will therefore again revert your edit, and will hope that in due time you will be able to provide reliable sources which describe in a more accurate manner that which you claim. Alltan (talk) 21:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Pointing out again that you keep removing "Islam" from the infobox with no justification. To your points:
 * Novik: Can you please re-read the section Gollobordë? It's quite clear: "many of the local Slavs (Muslim or Orthodox Christian) acknowledge a connection to the neighbouring Macedonians". I'm not saying the identity of the Muslim Slavs of Golo Brdo is clear-cut, but it absolutely intertwines with the subject of this article.
 * Myths: Thanks for your opinion but we'll stick with what the source says. Minority rights for Macedonians do not extend outside Mala Prespa. For example, there is no education in Macedonian outside Mala Prespa. Whether they have rights outside Mala Prespa or not, the point is that the source names Muslim Macedonians in Golo Brdo.
 * Identity Theories: are we debating geography here? It is clearly stating that the "Macedonians of Islamic religion... in the Debar region (as far as Golo Brdo) distinguish themselves by a particular Macedonian national awareness and determination". Golo Brdo = Gollobordë.
 * Indigenous: To my knowledge, this is correct. Macedonians in Gollobordë are in fact mostly Muslim.
 * Here's another: Entangled Histories of the Balkans "these builders were often Orthodox Christian or Muslim Slav Macedonians-especially those... from the Gollobordë/Golo brdo areas").
 * Macedonia and Greece describes a Macedonian Muslims organization claiming there are communities in Golo Brdo.
 * MANU: "also in the Macedonian Moslem villages in Golo Brdo"
 * I am quite surprised you managed to create issue with these sources, though the continued reverting without consensus is less surprising. Here's hoping this clarified any remaining issues. -- Local hero talk 01:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I do agree on keeping Islam in the religion bar of the infobox, and you are free to reinstate that part. However I have to remind you of what the actual point of discussion is.
 * 1." many of the local Slavs (Muslim or Orthodox Christian) acknowledge a connection to the neighboring Macedonians" - Sure, but the Muslim Slavs also clarify that they do not identify as Macedonians. Any Slavic speaker is in some way connected to another neighboring Slavic speaker, the same can be said about Serbs-Macedonians, Bulgarians-Serbs, Serbs-Bosniaks etc. But that quote does not purport to show them as being ethnic Macedonians. It simply does the opposite.
 * 2. I respect your opinion, though you can not use a statement from a 8th grade schoolbook to support a Muslim Macedonian presence in Golloborde. Not on Wikipedia at least.
 * 3. No we are not debating geography, I am simply stating the source refers to Golloborde in North Macedonia. I will bold it and quote it again. . So unless you disagree with where the borders of North Macedonia are set, you can't use this source to support a Muslim ethnic Macedonian presence in Albanian Golloborde.
 * 4. You are entitled to your opinion but I suggest examining the various censuses conducted in these areas. That source contradicts almost all available studies done on the matter.
 * We have so far covered the previous sources you have provided, and it is clear they can not be used to describe a Muslim ethnic Macedonian presence in Albanian Golloborde.
 * Now let's look at what else you have brought forth.
 * 5. The quote is yet again talking about territory within North Macedonia, it is a rebuttal to an author which had omitted to include the ethnicity of builders from Mala Reka, and it does not specifically mention Golloborde in Albania.
 * 6. The organization also claimed there were no Bulgarians living in Albania, so yet again it simply fails rudimentary RS.
 * 7. Sources from 90s MANU are generally best avoided. As I have said previously, North Macedonia has a long history of flawed and severely questionable interpretation of historical subjects. We know the Torbesh don't descend from Macedonians, as they had formed prior to the creation of a separate Macedonian ethnic consciousness. They are related in many ways, linguistically and culturally. But them speaking the same Eastern Balkan Slavic dialect as Macedonians does not necessarily make them ethnic Macedonians, something that modern researchers and scholars have established for many years now. Besides, this source is likely using Macedonian Muslims as a synonym for Torbeshi, which would render it useless for our purposes. It's best if we have reliable sources which clearly outline an ethnic or national feeling of Macedonian-ess among Torbeshis in Albania. That would alleviate my concerns. Until that happens, I will be bold in my revertion of your edit. However I will keep Islam in the religious sidebar of the infobox, as this refers to the Muslim ethnic Macedonian community in Gora.
 * Alltan (talk) 11:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You agree yet you kept reverting.
 * Glad you agree it supports the connection to the subject of this article.
 * This source is from reputable publisher Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht.
 * You're claiming the title of the book means that the book's content is not allowed to report on a location just across the Albanian border? It explicitly names Golo Brdo. There's no debate here.
 * I have. The Macedonian Orthodox population has significantly decreased since the 1990s. Most Macedonians in Albanian Golo Brdo are Muslim. This source supports the existence of Muslim Macedonians in Golo Brdo.
 * It literally even writes "Golloborde" in its Albanian name. You can't be serious.
 * FYI Macedonian scholarship does not support the idea that there is a Bulgarian minority in Albania. Not sure why this surprised you. Until recently, the Albanian government did not recognize such a minority group.
 * Best avoided because it contradicts your POV. Macedonian Muslims is very often a synonym for Torbes, as per the Torbes article itself.
 * At this point, you will need to initiate an RFC or some other dispute resolution. I am going to again restore the stable version of the article. Per WP:NOCON: "When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." If you revert again without consensus, you may be reported for edit warring. Thanks. -- Local hero talk 15:10, 29 June 2023 (UTC)