Talk:Macedonians of Romania

If somebody found source about religion of Macedonians in Romania, please inform me. Thanks --Makedonij (talk) 15:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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Dropping sections based on WP:COATRACK
I believe the following,

''Overall in the Middle Ages a common person's origin is said to be distinctly regional.[6] However Saint Nicodemus is said to be of mixed Greek-Serbian,[7][8] Bulgarian-Aromanian,[9] or even more complex origin.[10][11] Due to the complexity of pre-nationalist ethnic labels, references to modern ethnic groups in the Middle ages are obscure. Nonetheless in the High Middle Ages some form of early pre-modern national identity arose in Bulgaria, Serbia and the Danubian principalities.[12][13] However the existence of ethnic Macedonians then should be ignored.[a]''

&

Until the late 19th century and beyond, the majority of the Macedonian Slavs who had clear ethnic consciousness believed they were Bulgarian

are making this a "coatrack article" (WP:COATRACK) especially the first passage and therefore should be deleted. Having the [better source needed] tag is enough for what certain editors think is dubious material Beat of the tapan (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I continue with it. Jingiby (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Nicodemus of Tismana was man of mixed probably Bulgaro-Vlach or Serbo-Albanian origin who settled in Medieval Hungary. He is unrelated to the 20th century Macedonian nation, i.e. this is clear WP:COATRACK. This article is about the presence of the modern ethnic Macedonians in today Romania. Jingiby (talk) 11:44, 1 February 2020 (UTC)


 * We can drop the part on Nicodemus of Tismana, but stating migrations from the region date back from 14th should stay. Beat of the tapan (talk) 07:49, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This section is redundant. I think this migration started much earlier from the times of the Roman Empire. Jingiby (talk) 07:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * This article should be consistent with articles such as Greeks in Romania, where it mentions medieval Romans in Romania despite them not having a Greek identity. Beat of the tapan (talk) 08:24, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This article should be consistent with articles such as Macedonians in Hungary. Macedonians are a new nation and their diaspora spread in Europe during the second half of the 20th century. Such early accounts are ahistorical, as they projects modern ethnic distinctions onto the past. Jingiby (talk) 08:38, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * PS. I note that you are trying to impose some marginal ideas supported by the Macedonian historiography in this article. To do this, you are deleting information backed by solid, academic sources and shared by the majority of today's historians, who are specialists in the Macedonian issue. This information is also widely accepted in articles on the Macedonian issue, written here on the English-language Wikipedia. This is the thesis that the Macedonian identity emerged during the second half of the 19th century and was in latent form till 1930s, while the Macedonian nation was formed after the Second World War. Also you obviously dislike the fact that the majority of the Macedonian Slavs if any, had a pre-modern Bulgarian self-consciousness during the Middle Ages. You are trying to push here the deceptive idea that the Macedonian ethnicity had its roots at least in the Middle ages and are mentioning above even Ancient times. Please, open a general discussion on this matter and defend your revisionist thesis there, before attempting to push it here. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 10:45, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * It is pretty obvious that you dedicate a lot of your time to the topic of "Bulgarian self-consciousness and character" of Macedonians pre-20th century, and have disproportionate amount of your edits are related to the topic, but regardless, I am still sure you are here to Here to build an encyclopedia. Do not think I am obstructing that process, but most importantly do not accuse me of pushing a revisionist thesis because it does not fit your POV. I specifically did not mention the medieval migrants as Macedonians, but rather migrants from what is now the modern region (see the wikilink) - this information is still relevant to article and statements such as "If used, the term Macedonian then, had entirely geographical meaning" is coatracking, unsourced or not. Blabbing on about Nicodemus ethnicity is also coatracking.


 * The information I provided is on behalf of the Romanian Institute of Culture and the verification needed tag that follows it is not required since the source explicitly supports what I wrote. Beat of the tapan (talk) 10:02, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Romanian Cultural Institute is cultural institution working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Romania and in partnership with different indigenous and foreign organization. The Romanian Cultural Institute is promoter of international cultural relations of Romania. It is neither historical institution, nor has any expertise in the Macedonian issue. Also do not delete repeatedly sourced content consisting important clarification, directly related to the issue. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 10:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Dropping the whole section Early accounts, while based entirely on WP:COATRACKE
This section is misleading as it is related primarily to a different subject (not the modern Ethnic Macedonians, but Medieval Macedonians who were Bulgarians, Serbs, Aromanians, Byzantine Greeks etc.), place (Medieval Hungary, not modern Romania), and puts undue weight on a particular aspect rather than the subject (Slav Macedonians of Romania) as a whole. Moreover it is not historically correct. Lysimachus who was an Ancient Macedonian (Hellen) officer and successor of Alexander the Great, became a King in 306 BC, ruling Thrace, Asia Minor and Macedon. At that time Ancient Thrace included Northern Dobrogea, which is now part of Romania. By the logic used in this section now, he was also some kind of Macedonian (Ancient, i.e. unrelated to the modern Ethnic Macedonians which national roots are in the 20th century), and we can put also his name and history here, hence he and his people ruled and settled this part of today Romania, which would be again pure WP:COATRACKE. As prof. John Van Antwerp Fine points in the twice deleted reference: "Until the late 19th century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle ages the term ‘Macedonian’ was used entirely in reference to a geographical region." For more see: "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century," University of Michigan Press, pp. 36–37.Jingiby (talk) 11:39, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No objections were expressed in the last 3 weeks. Jingiby (talk) 06:09, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Macedonian Minority before WWII.
A Macedonian minority existed in Romania prior to World War II.

I have removed the above original research as being completely inadequate per WP:OR, WP:UNRELIABLE and Old Source. It is a false conclusion drawn from the context of a 1939 Life magazine article. This is a discredited primary source that is over 60 years old and thus unreliable. But regardless of this, the information in it is interpreted completely arbitrarily. The article is about a description of Macedonians in Romania who were settled there after the First World War. In this case, it is not about Slavo-Macedonians, but about Aromanian Macedonians settled along the then border with Bulgaria in Dobrudja, where there were riots at the time. At that time, Macedonians as a term was an umbrella often used for the Aromanians in Romania. The militant Aromanian settlers in Dobruja were used by the Romanian authorities at the time to quell local Bulgarian subversives. The border between Bulgaria and Romania was not like it is today then, but also included Southern Dobrudja, where many Bulgarians lived. This territory was annexed by Romania after the Balkan Wars. The zone was frequently attacked by fighters of the Internal Dobrudzhan Revolutionary Organization. During World War II, the area was officially returned to Bulgaria and remains so to this day. This publication 10-15 years ago was used by Macedonian nationalists on forums and in personal blogs to defend the same thesis, but these attempts died down as completely groundless years ago. I will also call User:Super Dromaeosaurus, who is an expert on the subject of Aromanians, for an opinion, but it is clear to me in advance what he will write. About the Aromanian community in Dobrudja during 1930s read here: Clark, Roland. “Claiming Ethnic Privilege: Aromanian Immigrants and Romanian Fascist Politics.” Contemporary European History 24, no. 1 (2015): 37–58. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43299461. During the 1930s, large numbers of Aromanian immigrants in Romanian Dobruja supported the fascist Legion of the Archangel Michael. Otherwise, for Macedonian nationalist free publications, see here: Macedonians noted in LIFE magazine - 1939. Jingiby (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This all is true. Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians were usually referred to as Macedo-Romanians (macedoromâni), although Macedonians (macedoni) was used too. I think macedoni referred to the Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians while macedoneni refers to modern Macedonians from North Macedonia. But I don't think the first two are still called that way. Super   Ψ   Dro  17:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Super, did you read the article in Life magazine. There is also a photo of a man in a typical Aromanian folk costume. Jingiby (talk) 18:52, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * By the way, the reader's note from Vasilka Petroff from the USA further confuses everything. The magazine's editor does not know at all what it is about and does not understand the terminology and what a Macedonian is. The reader from the USA also did not understand that she was writing about the Macedonians in Romania, who are in fact Vlachs. At that time, in the USA, the Macedonian Patriotic Organization used the term Macedonians as an umbrella covering all nationalities in the region, but considered Slav Macedonians to be Bulgarians. And there you have it, the perfect editorial pun used by today's Macedonian nationalists. A woman writes about Macedonians in the USA, but as an umbrella term, mostly Bulgarians, and an magazine's editor writes about Macedonians in Romania, but Vlachs. Jingiby (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In what page is the folk costume? Super   Ψ   Dro  08:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Check here.Jingiby (talk) 11:17, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's obvious it talks about the Aromanians. Thanks Jingiby for opposing these propagandic claims. It's also curious that this magazine believes Bessarabians are a Romanian minority. The magazine is clearly not the best source. Super   Ψ   Dro  12:46, 13 August 2022 (UTC)