Talk:Machig Labdrön

Some historical truth?
I am going to quote a story taken from the Lineage (Buddhism) site; I never heard about it before so I don't know whether it claims some historical truth or not. Does anybody know? Since it is to be found beneath the headline "Teaching story" it seems to be constructed for mind training.

"Though it cannot be conclusively ascertained as to whether or not Kamalashila was vain, it is pointed that directly after this debate with Mo Ho Yen, as he was making his way down from the Himalaya to the Indian lowlands, that he was induced to resort to phowa on compassionate grounds, transferring his mindstream into a truly dead corpse polluted with contagion. Thereby in compassion, animating the corpse, he moved it to a safe location - as nobody wished to move the dangerous corpse in fear of disease. As the mindstream of Kamalashila was otherwise engaged, a Mahasidda by the name of Padampa Sangye came across the vacant kuten or "physical basis" of Kamalashila. Padampa Sangye, was not karmically blessed with an aesthetic corporeal form, and upon finding the very handsome and healthy empty body of Kamalashila, which he perceived as a newly dead fresh corpse, transferred his mindstream into Kamalashila's body. Padampa Sangye's mindstream in Kamalashila's body continued the ascent to the Himalaya and thereby transmitted the Chöd. The mindstream of Kamalashila upon endeavouring to return to his kuten was unable to do so and resorted by necessity to the vacant body of Padampa Sangye.[4] The mindstream of Padampa Sangye continued in this body, and it is in this body that the transmission of Chod was made to Machig Labdrön.[5]


 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.94.87 (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Who is Kamalashila?
 * -- 212.202.60.84 (talk) 13:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Unrelated links?
Unrelated to Machig Labdröns lifestory, you want to say?
 * Personal Homepage of Prof. Giacomella Orofino (it.), List of her Publications
 * University homepage of Prof. Dr. Karénina Kollmar-Paulenz
 * -- 83.236.68.8 (talk) 19:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The personal pages of university professors do not have a place outside the articles about those professors. See WP:EL for more information about what appropriate links are. --Gimme danger (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

what about these links?, : related or not?
 * -- 83.236.67.60 (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Unrelated. For future reference, answers.com is primarily a Wikipedia mirror, so it's easier just to use an internal link. Examples of appropriate external links for this article: complete texts written by Machig Labdrön, photo journals, and other reliable sources that cannot be included in the article for some reason. --Gimme danger (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

what about this one?
 * 
 * -- 212.202.60.84 (talk) 13:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That link, or better, the book that it reviews, would be appropriate as a reference, worked into the article via inline citations. --Gimme danger (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * hello, I've inserted the book in section references. The review, too. For online citations we will see.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.218.119 (talk) 11:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Photos

 * Zangri Kangmar: Machig's Main seat
 * face of Machig Lapdron statue at Zangri Kangmar
 * Khangmar DZ on tibetmap
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.218.119 (talk) 10:59, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.222.236 (talk) 11:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC) (replaced linkno. by words)

Thangka
I have taken the link from this site -http://lhamo.tripod.com/9deity.htm#Machig-, and it says "Thangka #349 on the Art of Tibet site depicts Machig Labdrön's life story, and thangka #223 shows her at the centre of a Nyingma chöd lineage tree." The thangka above is thangka #223 that here is she is shown at the centre of a Nyingma chöd lineage tree. This thangka is thangka #349.
 * Refuge Field - Cho Lineage
 * Teacher (Lama) - Machig Labdron


 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.222.236 (talk) 11:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Title
Has she been given the title yogi and not yogini because of the mindstream of Mönlam Drub? Did she not have a mindstream of "her own"?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.161 (talk) 13:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

demons

In the article there is the following quotation: ""You may think that Gods are the one's who give you benefits, and Demons cause damage; but it may be the other way round. Those who cause pain teach you to be patient, and those who give you presents may keep you from practising the Dharma. So it depends on their effect on you if they are Gods or Demons", she said." I do not remember the source.

Additionally it is said in the article: "Although they are referred to as demons, it is clear from Machg Labdron's writings that the entities being dealt with in Chod practices are formulations of the human mind, rather than supernatural beings."

there is a contradiciton, is there not?


 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.161 (talk) 13:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Weblinks

 * I'd like to add this one.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.222.241 (talk) 14:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

please see page 72, it is about Machig Labdrön and her son Gyalwa Döndrup.
 * 
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.222.241 (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * 
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.222.241 (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

One of her sons
One of her sons is to be found in TBRC.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.195.38 (talk) 15:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

-- 88.75.195.38 (talk) 15:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 

Seat
tbrc doesn't mention a Seat for Machig Labdrön. The wiki article says that Zangri Khangmar has been her home. so: what does Seat mean in Tibetan Buddhist terminology?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.80.236 (talk) 10:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Here Zangri Khangmar is called her Seat. " While Lama Tsultrim was on pilgrimage in central Tibet at Zangri Khangmar, the seat of Machig Labdrön where she lived from age 37-99, the resident Lama recognized Lama Tsultrim as an emanation of Machig Labdrön. The Lama offered her the throne, a hat designed by Machig, a self-arisen golden crystal phurba and the only remaining tsatsa (clay mold ) made from the ashes of Machig's body."
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.215.171 (talk) 12:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This woman does not have a Seat neither,. Maybe socalled wandering yoginis don't have seats, by nature so to speak. Yogis also don't have seats. ?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.215.171 (talk) 12:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I was wrong, she has (had) a Seat,. The Seat was a nunnery, or two?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.215.171 (talk) 12:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Most probably Seat and estate have the same meaning, namely sort of financial labrang. The expression own estate is used referring to Drepung monastery and Penchen Sönam Drakpa (1478-1554 CE), when he installed the Zimkhang Gongma as his "own estate". I guess that kind of Seats are given to the Tulku incarnations after the original Seatholder passed away.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.0.167 (talk) 11:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there is also a relationship between one's seat (as a place) and enthronement? Best, AD64 (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Incarnations and emanations
how does all this go together?
 * Gyalwa Karmapa says that Jomo Memo was a karmic emanation of Yeshe Tsogyel. Most probably this means activity emanation, karma meaning activity. But: whose karma?
 * Aro Encyclopedia cites a prediction of Yeshe Tsogyel saying: "An activity emanation of my speech will appear in Tsang and she will be known as Jomo Menmo." and on the same page it states "Jomo Menmo Pema Tsokyi (Jom-mo sMan-mo Padma mTsho-sKyid) the incarnation of Ma-gÇig Labdrön ". Seems to be a contradiction.
 * At the same time it states: "Ma-gÇig Labdrön (Ma gCig Lap sGron – 1055-1145) ‘Unique Mother Torch of Practice’ was the incarnation of Yeshé Tsogyel. Ma-gÇig Labdrön took incarnation as Jomo Menmo and then as Khyungchen Aro Lingma."
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.193.130 (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Here in this glossary it is said: "Jomo Menmo: The incarnation of Ma-gÇig Labdrön, and emanation of Yeshé Tsogyel who was the consort of Guru Chöwang."

I am not sure whether these are words only or whether there are sort of real meanings, effects, so to speak.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.193.130 (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Another son
Another son is mentioned here, "Machik Lhadron's second son Toling Sandrup founded the "Tradition of Black Hat of Snowy Mountain." This tradition had many nuns of Joyul sect. Toling had "twenty-one male and female chief disciples" and "eighteen female disciples of achievements". Most of them were nuns." see " 3. Nuns of Joyul sect and their unique way of self-cultivation".

"Besides, Macik Labdron's daughter Lha-lcam and granddaughter gang-pa mug-yan were well-known nuns of the Joyul sect. Lha-lcam founded a tradition based on quiet practice, violent practice and quiet-violent practice. This tradition had three branches, of which the most influential was the "rgyal-thang Joyul tradition," founded by rgyal-thang-pa bsam-gtan vod-zer.
 * Daughter and granddaughter

Macik Labdron's granddaughter Gangpa Moyen, daughter of her second son Toling Sandrup, learned the teachings of Joyul sect from her father, She taught disciples and propagated the Joyul sect."

I doubt which of the informations should be inserted into the article.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.82.164 (talk) 12:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, the above source mentioned her son Tonyon Samdru (thod-smyon bsam-grub) as "second son", too ( Her second son Tonyon Samdru(thod-smyon bsam-grub)became her main successor and propagator of Macik Labdron's teachings. He became a monk at the age of 15 under the tutorship of Pha Dampa Sangye. Pha Dampa Sangye's original name was Dampa Sangye. Tonyon Samdru(thod-smyon bsam-grub) treated him as stepfather and called him Pha Dampa Sangye, with "Pha" meaning "father." Since then he was named Pha Dampa Sangye.)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.82.164 (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Simhamukha and Machig Labdrön: some relationship?


 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.93.85 (talk) 07:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The Demon Thing
Tsultrim Allione provides some more information online What is a Demon? Simhamukha is said to be (have been?) a dakini. Some people -maybe even many- think dakinis to be demons.

Allione in her book Tibets Weise Frauen writes: Da Dämonen (eine Projektion des Ego) nur demjenigen schaden können, der etwas zu verteidigen hat, können sie niemanden belästigen, der kein Hoheitsgebiet (das heißt Ego) hat, das er beschützen müsste. Dies ist die philosophische Basis der Chöd-Lehren.“ Allione in Anmerkung 63 der Lebensgeschichte von Machig Lapdrön, S. 328 des Buches Tibets weise Frauen


 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.91.230 (talk) 20:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.91.230 (talk) 20:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

more about Machig Labdrön
 * http://books.google.de/books?id=MvDKOK1h3zMC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Sherchinma&source=bl&ots=Q1Dxhv8oan&sig=JJa7tOC0HHvLA3T10Pje3jZQwq8&hl=de&ei=LavyStrGMZWsmwO81521Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Sherchinma&f=false


 * -- 88.75.213.57 (talk) 10:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The Demon section is totally inappropriate. Does anyone really care what Tsultrim Allinoe says about it? What possible relevance does this section have for the biography of Machig Labdron? The speculations and psychologizing cited in this section need to be completely removed. It's not scholarship and it's not even close to relevant. Joechip123 (talk) 00:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that the Demon section does not belong here even if edited for more neutrality. It could be useful in the Chöd entry though. AD64 (talk) 06:15, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Troma Nagmo Chod Reference
I shifted the original reference to the Troma Nagmo Chod here, with the associated talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AD64 (talk • contribs) 06:29, 2 May 2016‎ (UTC)

Mother Tröma Nagmo (The Extremely Wrathful Black Mother - Dakini Troma Nagmo (the black form of Vajrayogini), ), Wisdom mother, Great Mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.199.209 (talk) 06:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest any reference to Troma Nagmo be removed from this page on Machig Labdron. It does not apply to the biography of Machig, but rather to the Chöd entry. In addition, since this description refers to a specific terma from Dudjom Lingpa which is is after Machig's time, we can assume that Machig did not practice this particular form of Chöd. AD64 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I deleted a link in the External References section because the link is no longer live and because it refers us to the liturgy for the above terma cycle that was not practiced by Machig. AD64 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Tibetan "Busshist" teacher
The preview for the Machig Labdron entry (with the small photo and a one line description) reads "Tibetan Busshist Teacher." I don't know where this content is stored, or even what this preview item is properly called, yet I'd like to correct the spelling on this. Can anyone help with this or point me to the place where I can make the change myself? Thanks so much. AD64 (talk) 04:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Link to Polyandry article?
In the first sentence of this article, the portion of the translation of Machig Labdron's name to "One Mother" links to the Tibetan Fraternal Polyandry article. Now, this seems like a big jump to to link her name to this form of kinship and social structure. It's not impossible though. It just the first time I've heard of this and I've studied a lot of literature on Chod and Machig Labdron, and know something of Himalaya fraternal polyandry. I can't yet confirm if fraternal polyandry was historically practiced in U-Tsang or not. In addition, as I try to puzzle this out, the first reference, which is after the date of birth, has no page numbers, and I can't tell if it is meant to refer to the whole preceding sentence, or just the date of birth. Does anyone have any insight on this, or do you happen to be the editor who inserted this reference (Norbu, Namkhai (1986). The Crystal and the Way of Light. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul. ISBN 0-14-019084-8)? If so, can you provide a page number so I can do some fact checking? Thank you. Best, AD64 (talk) 06:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I have found a reputable scholarly article, a website of Tibetan social scientists, and a dissertation, all of which do indeed confirm that fraternal polyandry was practiced in the area of Machig Labdron's birth in both historical times and more recently. Goldstein's article is scholarly, peer reviewed, and known in this field. I trust this source. I don't know if the posting on the Tibetan Academy of Social Science counts as a reliable source, yet it is interesting to note.


 * http://faculty.washington.edu/stevehar/ANTH470Goldstein4.pdf
 * http://www.xzass.org/english/newsinfo.php?id=2017
 * https://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/tibetanSociety/documents/BenJiaodissertation.pdf
 * https://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/fraternal.html


 * That said, I'm still not yet convinced that a translation of Machig Labdron's name as "one mother" or "singular mother" would indeed be pointing to the social organizaiton of her birth area. In my research, I have not yet seen any indication that Machig Labdron was in relationship with two brothers, although she may indeed have had a husband and a consort (who was a different man) at the same time. I don't want to muddy the waters and conflate tantric consort relationships with fraternal polyandry. Nor do I want to appear to explain away the complexity of the various forms of Machig Labdron's familial and tantric relationships by labeling them fraternal polyandry. Nor do I want to downplay the potential discomfort of knowing Machig Labdron did not have a "conventional" relationship life by citing fraternal polyandry. I would like to be accurate, fair, and informative in this article. What do you think about this? How should this be written in the lede? Best, AD64 (talk) 18:02, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I have since found references to other Tibetan women named "Machig" and thus will remove the references to fraternal polyandry from the lede of this article. Please discuss here if you feel it should stay. AD64 (talk) 21:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)AD64

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