Talk:Macron (diacritic)/Archive 1

Dot and Macron for Samogitian
This would be: —Phil | Talk 15:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hepburn not standard?
I don't get why the article states the Hepburn system is not standard. Even though they don't teach the Hepburn system in Japanese schools, it is a de-facto standard. It is used by academics to transcribe Japanese in almost all countries that have a latin-based writing system, and it is used in Japan when transcribing signs for train stations and the like. --Mkill 04:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Erm... as far as I can tell the article never stated Hepburn is not standard. It states that doubling up vowels (or adding an U after an O for a long O sound) is not standard for Hepburn transcription, which is correct AFAICT, as is the remark that it is nonetheless common practice on the internet. (probably because there's no macron key on most keyboards, at least I've never seen one, and as such, typing ou is faster than ō) 130.89.228.82 14:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Macron in Nahuatl
Macron diacritic is also used in nahuatl, the mother tongue of 2 million people in Mexico. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.80.129 (talk) 19:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Marshallese
The Marshallese language is probably unique in using a macron with the letter n. &mdash; Hippietrail 03:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Infinitely Repeating Decimal
Another mathematical use is to indicate a digit that goes on forever. As an example, say, 0.169999999... could be written 0.169, with the macron over the 9. I'd add this in, except I don't have a good idea on how to type in an example. 216.87.77.66 06:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Supporting Fonts
I know the macron is needed for Japanese, but I cannot find a font that supports it in MS Works, WinXP home. Could there be a note on fonts supporting them please? 76.171.210.88 (talk) 05:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarity on ancient use required
I'm not sure what the following means.

-Though many ancient Roman and Greek textbooks employ the macron, it was not used in ancient Rome or Greece.-

Either the macron was or was not used in ancient Greece and Rome, which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.34.30 (talk) 10:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Tomana
Why does it say "tomana" next to macron in the box? nohat (talk) 00:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Macron placed under a vowel
In cabecar and bribri languages, there is a macron that is placed under the vowels for mark the nasality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.197.84.49 (talk) 16:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The template, used here, with example letters does show that too: Letters with macron. Earlier today the linking underlines were removed! OK then? -DePiep (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The Technical notes tables
Why does the technical notes table include letters with other diacritics? Unless a reason is given, I will remove them. —Coroboy (talk) 07:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Macron in Russian handwriting
The article says: "In Russian handwriting, as well as in some others based on the Cyrillic script (for example, Ukrainian), a lowercase Т looks like a lowercase m, and a macron is often used to distinguish it from Ш, which looks like a lowercase w. Some writers also underline the letter ш to reduce ambiguity further."

The truth is that there is no such a problem in Russian handwriting. First of all the letter "т" can be easily distinguish from "ш" without macron. I'm native russian, and that is the first time I heard about macron. I don't insist, but you better check your sourses. Синдар (talk) 12:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * At page т, in the infobox I see a cursive (=Italic=like handwritten) lowercase character that looks like "m". Of course that is what is referred to, but we cannot reproduce it in the font (it is not a Unicode character I as far as I know). So the letter looks a bit alike. But if it is not used in writing at all, and badly sourced here, it might be deletable. -DePiep (talk) 00:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here they are, by graphic file: Cyrillic letter Te - uppercase and lowercase.svgItalic Cyrillic letter Te - uppercase and lowercase.svg. -DePiep (talk) 00:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

No reason to delete anything here. It is well known that  in Russian cursive and italics looks like a Roman : see. In handwriting, the macron is often used to distinguish that m-looking  not so much from , but from . It's all explained on this page  (I've already added this link in the article). The macron is more frequently used in Serbian and Macedonian, but it's used in Russian too. See all the macrons on this postcard written by Leo Tolstoy. —— Womtelo (talk) 01:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

macron & Breve
In Sanskrit and Pāli linguistics we often want to use a macron and a breve at the same time, say to indicate that something applies to both ă and ā at the same time. Is this possible in Unicode? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayarava (talk • contribs) 09:05, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Macron in German
I've seen my German teacher uses uses a macron-like diacritic over o and u in handwriting instead of umlaut. She's from Switzerland


 * You'll see that in my handwriting too (I'm german). But this is not a macron, it is just a quicker way of writing umlauts. --Mkill 04:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Re the "macron" that distinguishes the u from n in German handwriting-- it's really more of a breve or hacek, which might look like a macron in hurried script. However, as mentioned elsewhere in this article, a macron over m or n actually doubles it. Cf the German cursive style Suetterlin. 66.75.246.15 23:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC) (T. Gnaevus Faber)

The macron over a lower case u to distinguish it from n is also present in old Scandinavian handwriting (old as in taught before the reform of the 1970s). It should not be confused with a shorthand umlaut, which would make the u into a y.

I have also seen a macron over the 0 (zero) in fonts where 0, 6 and 9 all have the same size circle - this distinguishes it from o, which gets a line under it when there could be doubt. 68.9.90.216 (talk) 01:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Macron in Middle High German
Some MHG texts have a macron (or possibly a tilde, but I expect that's simply stylization of the macron) over some n's and m's. Any idea what the purpose of this is? C&#39;valyi d&#39;Jade (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have an example? Just for curiosity's sake; I probably can't help you, since I know nothing about Middle High German. — Eru·tuon 19:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Example: Beginning of "Die Nibelungen" in "Handschrift C": "[..] von den Nibelungen. UNS IST Inalten m{ae}ren [...] von heleden lobebaren. v{o-} [..] arebeit. von frevde v{n-} hochgeciten", where "{}" stands for ligatures, macrons etc. "v" can either be a real v (like in von, from) or a u (like in und, and), "i" actually is a "ı" (dotless i), "." can either be a "." or a ",", and "Inalten" should be "in alten" (with space; and lower case "i" if not stylized). "v{o-}" should be "von", "v{n-}" should be "und". Thus, at least in these two examples, the macron stands for the omitted last letter. -IP, 00:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.196.245.227 (talk)

mid-tone
The introduction says that in phonetics a macron is used to represent a "mid-tone". Only the word tone is linked, and in the article there isn't this notion. What could it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.72.252 (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

American dictionary pronunciation guides
Another use of the macron is found in American dictionaries when they indicate a word's pronunciation, for five vowel sounds: ā for the vowel sound in "main", ē for the vowel sound in "feet", ī for the vowel sound in "bite", ō for the vowel sound in "boat", and ū for the vowel sound in "cute". This can be sourced to any American dictionary, such as Random House College dictionary. These are the so-called "long" vowels, though one is a monophthong and the others are a subset of the diphthongs.

I'm not sure where to put this into the article, so I'll leave that to someone who is more familiar with the article. Loraof (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Combining conjoining macron (U+FE26)
The main article does not yet describe the rarely used combining conjoining macron (U+FE26) that is found in some writing systems such as Coptic. Here are some words from the Sahidic Bible where this diacritic is used: DFH (talk) 14:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ⲡ︦ϩⲱⲡ, ⲛⲅ︦ⲛⲁⲩ, ⲛⲅ︦ⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ, ⲛⲅ︦ⲃⲱⲕ, ⲁⲓⲥⲉⲧⲡ︦ⲧⲏⲩⲧⲛ, ⲗ︦ⲗⲁⲁⲩ, ⲙⲡ︦ϥⲁⲣⲛⲁ, ϣⲡ︦ϩⲙⲟⲧ, ϥⲣ︦ϩⲁϩ

Requested move 25 April 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consider a move if he becomes President. f e  minist  11:22, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Macron → Macron (diacritic) – And redirect Macron to Emmanuel Macron. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * A user asked for this move, but Emmanuel Macron is not yet president, and see Macron (disambiguation) for many other uses of the word. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi, There is no rule that says that one needs to be elected president for such a Move to happen; it's all about notoriety — or rather, the Principle of least astonishment. I doubt very much that the majority of WP users looking for "Macron" this month are interested with the diacritic. I don't think reverting my Move has been very helpful to the public. Womtelo (talk) 07:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Observation: As shown here views to this page have gone from roughly 500-800 hits per day for the last 90 days to over 5,000 and over 7,000 in the two days since Emmanuel Macron won the French election. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨   05:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Page was moved in order to redirect Macron to Emmanuel Macron, but I think the diacritic is still the primary topic. One way or another, it needs to be discussed first. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment after this move reversion, a move request should be opened. Personally, it would seem the disambiguation page should be placed as primary -- 70.51.200.162 (talk) 05:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Although it is the case that most readers who type "macron" these days are probably looking for the presidential candidate, for Macron to redirect to the article about him, it should be demonstrated that he is the primary topic for the term. Although his article does meet the criteria for usage, as of yet it falls short of the mark for long-term significance. If Emmanuel Macron gets elected as president next month, then a move will be much easier to justify. – Uanfala (talk) 09:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose if he gets elected then at most Macron (disambiguation) would be moved to be baseline. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, for now. If he does not get elected he will be soon forgotten. I endorse moving the disambiguation page to the baseline if he wins, however. A redirect can be discussed later. Nohomersryan (talk) 13:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. 86.191.44.81 (talk) 17:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose the primary topic grab – prefer no primarytopic here, or the status quo. Disambiguation is a good thing. Dicklyon (talk) 05:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Commment: A most spectacular example of the problem with page views. Andrewa (talk) 07:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Redirect to Macron (diacritic)
While I agree that Macron shouldn't redirect the the French presidential candidate, I think that links should be moved to Macron (diacritic) to prevent any ambiguity. 168.202.39.116 (talk) 11:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 May 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Both moved. (non-admin closure)Kostas20142 (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

– It's looking very likely that Emmanuel Macron has been elected the President of France, so as the above discussion seemed to have some consensus for this to happen were he to win, it's time for another discussion. (This time the DAB becomes the baseline, not a redirect.) Just in case it's not clear, I support this move. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Macron → Macron (diacritic)
 * Macron (disambiguation) → Macron

I support this move, as long as the base Macron page is a disambiguation. Even if most people looking for Macron probably mean the politician, there's still a good amount of interest in the diacritic, and I know I was annoyed, at least, when Macron was briefly the politician, because the only way I could easily find to get to the diacritic was going through another accent page. --RoseOfVarda (talk) 19:05, 7 May 2017 (UTC) — RoseOfVarda (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I support this move. For years to come, way more people searching for "Macron" will mean the president rather than the diacritic. — Womtelo (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I'll note here that Trump is a disambiguation page. I bring it up because "trump" has multiple meanings. Even without Emmanuel Macron, I think it would be wise to move the current Macron to Macron (diacritic), and make the former the disambiguation page. Thus, support moves. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. Since the election result has been now officially confirmed, this is a situation similar to Talk:Trump (card games). At the very least, the same form of resolution is desirable here. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support: and request snow close since that was basically the consensus of the last requested move and to help all the people likely looking for Emmanuel today. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨   21:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No, that was not what the outcome of the previous discussion was. Although a snow close might as well become justifiable after a day or two. – Uanfala (talk) 21:29, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Macron has a pretty clear meaning in English, which is reflected in the current article title. Even "Trump", given as an example in one of the earlier replies, doesn't have such a clearly defined standalone meaning, as it's more common as part of the expression trump card or as a verb, but not so much as a standalone noun, whereas "macron" is a perfectly good standalone noun. Also, Trump is far from being the only major politician whose last name is also an English word: May and Tusk are words as well, and they are neither redirects nor disambiguation pages. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 22:05, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you are opposing adjectives in favor of nouns ;) --Hammersoft (talk) 22:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It all depends on how common the word is. Only five U.S. presidential surnames (Van Buren, Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Obama) redirect to the president in question. The other names are considered too common (such as Jackson, Taylor, Kennedy, Clinton) or referring to more than one president (Adams, Harrison, Roosevelt, Johnson, Bush). Although no one would dispute the notability of Theresa May or Donald Tusk, May and Tusk are common words known to everyone, while macron is a word that probably 99% of English speakers have never heard and have no idea as to its meaning. Thus, from this point onward, the sole meaning of "Macron" for nearly all English speakers will be the new French president. As a final example regarding surnames, it may be noted that in the English Wikipedia, the word Hollande redirects to the outgoing French president, but in the French Wikipedia, typing Hollande will send one directly to Holland, not to the president. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I have known since school (a long time ago) that a macron is a dash-like line above a letter. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – seems like a case of recentism. However, I wouldn't mind this becoming a disambiguation page with the two most common meanings (the macron, and Emmanuel Macron) at the top, like with Trump. —Ynhockey (Talk) 06:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * But that's the precise proposal under discussion! – Uanfala (talk) 09:07, 8 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Support Macron is not an English language diacritic (English doesn't have diacritics) It isn't a commonly found diacritic in languages that natively use the Latin alphabet, so it is a rare topic (Slavic languages natively use Cyrillic, Westernized Slavic languages have converted thus equivalent to a non-literate language being transliterated; non-literate languages don't have a native transcription, they are all transliterated; transliterated languages do not use it natively since they are transliterated). Therefore this diacritic should not be used as the primary topic. -- 70.51.200.162 (talk) 09:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support Per above. Szqecs (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support only the proposal above. "Macron" should not direct to the PTM Emmanuel Macron.  —  AjaxSmack   00:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, since there's so many meanings, the disambiguation page should be the main entry point. --  numbermaniac  ( talk ) 07:55, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support move and disambiguation. bd2412  T 01:46, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support this term is not that widely used in English, but if anything I would treat the president as the primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 22:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose as obvious WP:RECENTISM. One day, (Emmanuel) Macron will no longer be the president of France, there will be far less page views, and this article will once again be the obvious primary topic. Laurdecl talk 09:18, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * So what? This objection makes no sense. We'll have another change in five years, and that's all. — Womtelo (talk) 10:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 16 May 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator per WP:SNOWCLOSE. Shall propose a merge of this article with Macron below. --Nev&eacute;–selbert 00:30, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Macron (diacritic) → Macron above – Macron (diacritic) should redirect to the Macron disambiguation, given the potential for confusion with Macron below. --Nev&eacute;–selbert 21:37, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've never heard a macron called "macron above", and a google search turns up relatively few results, and in most of them "macron" and "above" aren't in the same phrase. – Uanfala (talk) 22:26, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I've never heard a macron called "macron above" either, and it is a much more common diacritic than a macron below. After some searching, I can't find any reliable sources that use "macron" by itself to refer to a macron below, rather than "macron below", "subscript macron", or "subscripted macron"—maybe such sources exist, but they are evidently not common. We could edit the hatnote to link to Macron below if you want, but a move is not necessary. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Title is already the primary topic for the term. bd2412  T 20:38, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposed merge with Macron below
Practically the same subject, with only miniscule differences between them; there is no need for us to main both separately. --Nev&eacute;–selbert 00:34, 18 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose as the resultant article would get too messy. The proposal isn't without merit (the topics are similar enough) or precedent (see Dot (diacritic)). But macron and macron below, though having the same shape, aren't quite the same subject: the former is a widely used and coherent diacritic with a series of closely related applications, while the latter has a disparate set of uses, none of them related to the proper macron. – Uanfala (talk) 00:45, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the "See also" and the disambig are fine, and allow anyone to find macron below if that's what they were after. Snori (talk) 08:05, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, for the reasons outlined above by Uanfala. — Hugh 02:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as these are two distinct diacritics. − LynwoodF (talk) 19:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

'Vowel length' section
I suggest the 'Vowel length' section would be easier to find and read if it were rearranged with these sub headings -


 * Arabic
 * Aztec Nahuatl
 * Baltic and Baltic-Finnic
 * Latvian
 * Lithuanian
 * Livonian
 * Samogitian
 * Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, Pali and Sanskrit
 * English (Old)
 * Greek and Latin
 * Japanese
 * Polynesian
 * Cook Islands	Māori
 * Fijian
 * Hawaiian
 * Māori
 * Niuean
 * Tahitian
 * Tongan and Samoan
 * Slav languages
 * Syriac
 * Tsez.
 * Udege.

Do you agree? Johnragla (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Kazakhstani Tenge, type-error/mistake?
Is there a type error at the piece about the Kazakhstani Tenge? Because I see a Japanese/Chinese character (荶) in front of it. This is the piece: Kazakhstani tenge

U+20B8 荶₸ TENGE SIGN (HTML &#8376;)
 * The 荶 prefix is there because the  template is using the   parameter.  So it's deliberate but confusing.  It was added on 31 March 2019 by an annonymous user so I can't ask them their intent.  I've deleted the prefix.  We'll see if someone wants it added back. DRMcCreedy (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it and explaining the problem!

Untitled
This page's character entries need work, can anybody help it?

Smkatz 00:06, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of makros
makros means long; the word for large is megas