Talk:Madden Curse

Madden 97
Reggie White was featured on a cover of the Madden video game. Specifically, the Madden 97 video game, as seen here: http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/60000200/Images/29/1109041225701_MiscMadden97.jpg. Madden 97 was released in 1996, the year Reggie White had one of his most successful seasons, and his team went on to win Super Bowl XXXI. How is he not included in the discussion of the Madden curse or as a player that graced the Madden video game cover? Jdhein22 00:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * White is never mentioned in the sources, external links, etc. I guess the curse doesn't cover players before 2000, who knows, but it's not listed in the snopes article so adding Reggie White and the previous players would be original research.++ aviper2k7 ++ 05:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If I had to interpret this, I would say Reggie White was not affected by the curse directly, since he was not on the cover directly. However fact is fact, and he did pass away at the early age of just 43.   Starze 05:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Eddie George?
Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say he was cursed when he had the best year of his career? Borisblue 07:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really since he did lose more fumbles then ever. Plus he seems to be a case of a "delayed curse". His career was AWFUL after that year —Preceding unsigned comment added by S kirkness (talk • contribs) 21:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

2008 cover
Please see WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The whole section revolves around original research and speculation.++ aviper2k7 ++ 02:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

YOung is now hurt and has missed one game. The curse is on.71.183.212.59 19:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Try scrolling down, and reading the actual discussion. There's more to this issue than simply claiming Young is a victim of the curse simply because he missed one game. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 20:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Young has been injured as despite the fact that his team his winning, his numbers personally are terrible. He threw for 46 yards on October 28th and only 26 when you consider his Sacks. Also, its been said that Reggie White what the first cover athlete in 1997. The Curse does not affect him since he was not promiently featured nor was he paid —Preceding unsigned comment added by S kirkness (talk • contribs) 01:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Vince Young's numbers sucked last year. He didn't deserve the ROY award.► Chris Nelson Holla! 01:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Second Paragraph
Is the second Paragraph of this article really needed? It basically states information which is later stated in another, more proper parts of the Article. If it's really needed, perhaps one can just trim it down. --ShadowJester07 18:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Should be trimmed, not completely removed per WP:MOS. I'll try to trim it.++ aviper2k7 ++ 18:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Why Just Football?
I am very willing to create a new "Curse of EA" page and move this over there. I can't believe people are disputing this page as a WP:NOT crystal ball when there are UFOs and other pages that are even less proven. Anyhow why limit it to just football?


 * 1) What about Dan Heatley of the Atlanta Thrashers in hockey. He was in a major car accident that killed his teammate after he graced the cover.
 * 2) What about Roy Jones Jr the boxer who graced the cover of Fight Night 2004 and suffered back-to-back losses. His first two real defeats in his career.
 * 3) Shaquille O'Neal: Misses 28 games in 1996. Then left Orlando to Los Angeles in the off-season.

Starze 05:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding such would be original research. If it's verifiable and written about by news medias, then add it, but I doubt it's written about in that context. And my crystal ball comment was directed toward a section someone created speculating the 2008 cover.++ aviper2k7 ++ 05:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am going to see if others have more comments before I make any page changes. The news/media are not going to write it in that context.  They don't want to be sued by the billion dollar EA conglomerate.  But it is in forums all over, and to me that's better than 1 news person saying it thru some news center.  Starze 05:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it's not. Please see WP:V as Wikipedia frowns upon sourcing forums or blogs. Adding this information would be against WP:OR due to lack of sources linking this to the madden curse.++ aviper2k7 ++ 06:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok I have enough reliable sources to link a ton of new info. I am proposing a move of this page to "EA curses".  It is fascinating stuff that should not be limited to just 1 sport. Any objections?Starze 04:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are many more sources that site a "Madden Curse". There are more reliable sources that call it the "Madden Curse" and not EA Curse. I've never heard of an EA Curse actually. Google results turn only 1,970 results while madden curse returns 64,000. Moving this page to EA curse wouldn't make much sense as most people know this as the Madden Curse.++ aviper2k7 ++ 22:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't worry. I can move the wikipedia page no problem, and it will self-link to madden curse to the new EA curse page.  Done it many times.  The google result is not indicative of anything, since a search on "madden" will result in 25 million hits versus "nba live" with just 2 million hits.  So "madden curse" is definitely going to get you a higher number.  Compared to the other sports, the football player injuries are quite minor in comparison.  Let's see if anyone else objects.  I do appreciate your feedback.  With my sources I do have alot more info to offer.  The only one I probably won't bother mentioning is Shaq's 28 games since I honestly couldn't get a decent reference on it.  Thanks again.  Starze 04:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I searched "Madden curse" in parenthesis, which searches the whole term. I really don't see your argument, how can 1,970 hits on the term "EA curse" be verifiable? I mean, the term Madden Curse is quite well known, more-so than EA Curse. There's more reliable and verifiable sources with the "Madden Curse" than there is "EA Curse". Don't know why it'd need changing.++ aviper2k7 ++ 05:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you know EA the company acknowledged the curse when they pulled Dan Heatley's cover off the shelf. That has NEVER HAPPENED IN FOOTBALL.  Please read the Five pillars because you point of view is no longer neutral, limiting to your favorite sport.  Also please read What Wikipedia is not.  Because you are currently "censoring" and "discriminating collections of information".  Really, I am open to any discussion not based on popularity.  There is no policy in wikipedia saying materials are only allowed when it has reached X number of hits on a search engine. Starze 17:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Who said my favorite sport was football? I've played hockey all my life. It's not a point of view, it's the amount of valid sources writing about a Madden Curse and not EA Curse. Unless you own a book or a couple of magazines that say something about an "EA Curse", there is not enough Validity to change the name of the page. There's thousands or articles about a Madden Curse and there's about one or two good valid articles about an EA curse.++ aviper2k7 ++ 21:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have left this discussion open for 3 days, and the only attempt to prove an "EA curse" does not exist is that google doesn't have enough hits for an unwritten article? Other wikipedians are not going to be able to input for the other sports, when this page continues to suppress to 1 league.  Again, this is censorship and discriminating information against wikipedia policies.  This page will be moved to "EA curse", and it will self-link to "Madden curse" automatically.  The word "Madden curse" is not going to disappear.  Don't worry.  It will certainly be incorporated into the next article changes.  You may not accept "EA curse", and I can understand.  But thousands of hits on google tell me it has already been accepted.  Your argument is based entirely on looking the other way.  Starze 04:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, first off, there’s no real evidence that proves the existence of either curse; we merely assume the two exist based on pure superstition, similar to broken mirror and black cat phenomena. The Madden and SI curse have gained wide spread attention for three basic reasons, consistency, frequency, and recognition. The only reason why the madden curse article has not been deleted is because various, credible sources, ei CNN, ESPN, 1UP, ect have written about it, and reinforced the information with credible facts. Additionally, something has gone wrong to almost every player who appeared on the cover – perhaps not all – but to the extent and frequency at which it has drawn significant media attention. If you claim that there is an EA curse, please state some sources that can verify your claim. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  05:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Here are 4 quick references for starters. Notice how they call it "EA cover curse" or "Curse of EA" or "EA sports curse".  If anyone doubt the legitimacy of the sources, I'd rather post this to wikipedia dispute page and let the administrators take a look.  Otherwise I'd like to move on with the editing.  Yahoo.com PC gameworld Gamespy Xbox gamezone  Starze 17:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

While the sources are legitimate, they seem to be dated, a majority of the sources are from 2004. Also, the sources seem to only attack athletes who have had something bad happen to them. Albert Pujols appeared on the cover of EA’s MVP 2004, had one of the best seasons of his career in 2005. The hockey thing is also questionable, while one thing happened to Markus Näslund, Vincent Lecavalier, or Alexander Ovechkin. Additional questions can be raised about EA’s NCAA Football/Basketball and NBA Series. As I mentioned before, constancy is one of the most important things when when one writes something about a speculative subject. It's a natural tendency to connect events that occur in sequence, Leading us to associate superstitious phenomena with misfortunes, and ignore the laws of probability (Locke, Hume, Aristotle). Using similar rationale, I can assume all Chicago Bears quarterbacks with the even jersey numbers will be plagued with bad luck ( ei Chris Chandler, Cade McNown, Rex Grossman, Shane Matthews, Kordell Stewart). The Madden Curse, with the exception of the Eddie George, has proven to be consistent. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  23:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok I added a section below. I guess I am not going to bother putting it into the main article.  Starze 17:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Non-Football Curses
Here is a list of non-football related curses. Feel free to add to the list. It has been decided that the article be kept to football materials only, since injuries are more consistent on a season to season basis. Should other sports result in the same consistency in the future, the article may be rediscussed to relocate to an EA curse page instead. Starze 17:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hockey

 * Dany Heatley was featured on the cover of NHL 2004. Afterwards the Atlanta star was involved in a preseason car crash that killed teammate Dan Snyder. Heatley will face vehicular manslaughter charges stemming from the crash. EA took the game off the shelve and recirculated the game with a new cover.Source
 * Eric Lindros was on the cover of NHL 1999. During an April 1, 1999 game against the Nashville Predators, Lindros suffered  a collapse lung life threatening injury.  Lindros was sidelined, and striped of his captaincy.  He would not play in the 2000-01 season, followed by years of trade disputes and conflict with management.Source

Baseball

 * St. Louis Cardinals Albert Pujols was on the cover of MVP Baseball 2004. His Cardinals lost in a four-game World Series sweep to the supposedly Bambino-cursed Boston Red Sox.Source


 * Randy Johnson was featured in the covers of Triple Play 2003. He had a dismal season along with a number of injuries.  His ERA nearly doubled, he had more losses than wins.Source

Boxing

 * Roy Jones Jr suffered back-to-back losses after he appeared in Fight Night 2004. The first two real defeats in his career.   Knocked out by Antonio Tarver in May 2004.  Knocked out by Glencoffe Johnson in September 2004.Source

Don't forget that the cover boy for NHL 2004 was supposed to be Joe Thornton, but they yanked him before any games were shipped due to assault charges. 24.83.3.54 23:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Vince Young on 2008 Cover...
Since numerous sources have reported that Vince Young is the 2008 cover player, he should have a section in this article. I added him earlier today, but he was removed. Note, the title of the section is "allegedly cursed". Since Vince Young is the 2008 cover player, he would now be "allegedly cursed". Whether the curse is effective or not (if he has a bad season or not), will obviously be determined much later. Bjewiki 23:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Since nothing has happened to him yet, there's no reason to add anything about him. The only true information one could add about him right now is the reported speculation that he may very likely appear on the cover of 08. There's no actual proof that he is even cursed since nothing bad has even happened to him, especially since the preaseason has not even started. It's better to add information when something actually does happens to him. See WP:NOT. --   ShadowJester07  ►Talk  23:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources including Madden himself (i believe) and ESPN have reported he's the cover choice for the 2008 game. Remember, it's verifiable, not necessarily "truth", although in this case it appears to be true.  In any case, the section in the article is "allegedly cursed".  Since Vince Young is the 2008 cover player he is now "Allegedly cursed".  If the section was "victims of the madden curse", well then that would be different, because he is not yet a victim. Bjewiki 00:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See Chris' comments in the history logs. --   ShadowJester07  ►Talk  00:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If I say that i'm putting a curse on you, you are now "Allegedly Cursed", in that i'm alleging that I put a curse on you. Bjewiki 00:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, but I don't take it to mean that. Each player has some reasons (albeit stupid ones) that people use to say they are cursed. That is what makes them allegedly cursed. The fact is that Vince Young has not had anything happen that makes him cursed, so what's the point of adding him here? We all know he's on the game, we all know about the bullshit curse, so what's the point of having that info here when it's already known and in other places?Chris Nelson 15:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a moot point, as I changed the section heading to "Alleged Victims" days ago. Bjewiki 16:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I think that's poor wording, as victims makes it sound somewhat violent and horrible. Allegedly cursed is much better. Secondly, Alleged victims, is even MORE inaccurate when describing Young, since a victim is someone that has ALREADY suffered something. You're not a victim before it happens to you. If I'm killed tomorrow, that doesn't make me a murder victim right now. It should be Allegedly cursed, and Young should not be here, plain and simple.Chris Nelson 18:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I made it "alleged victims", because they are alleged victims of the curse. And Young doesn't appear in the alleged victims section. Bjewiki 18:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

At this point the curse has been cast. You can add more info about how the curse affects him later, but the info should be out that he has the cover. Removing this information is pointless. The main reason some one would visit this page is to see what year some one had the cover. This year's cover is Vince Young; whether or not he is affected by the curse can be written about later. Digitial20
 * Young is not a victim of the curse yet - look at the title of section. You may add information about him when something bad actually happens to him. Also, you should probably note he does not play for the Houston Texans. He did, however, attended the University of Texas. ;-) -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 22:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point ShadowJester, he was drafted by the Titans, the curse lives!!!!! I'll add it immediately. Digitial20


 * Also please take note that Young is not a victim yet - he's been 'cursed', but has yet to victimize him. The section is only reserved for players that have been 'victimized' by the 'curse'. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 23:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If being drafted by the Titans does not make him a victim, I do not know what does... Digitial20

Someone wrote this:

Young allegedly punched a teammate in the head during a training camp practice.

What do you say about that?24.83.3.54 23:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

And now it's gone. Odd. 24.83.3.54 23:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

And yesterday he went out with a leg injury. We'll see how long he's out. That could be enough to put him in. --204.11.134.202 13:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The Madden Curse isn't always injuries.

Consider Young's stats to date: 5 games played 703 yds passing 3 TD's versus INT's 1 rushing TD 68 QB Rating Statistically, he is the worst QB in the League right now among active QB's TehPhil 15:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * True, statistically speaking, Young is currently the worst starting quarterback in the League.  It's highly improbable that he will turn his season around by posting MVP-caliber stats in the remaining eleven games. However, it's speculation to say the Young's season is already toast. See WP:CRYSTAL.  Furthermore, the statement about Yong in this article is inaccurate, and seemingly biased. Yes, young did leave with an injury, but his return listed as 'probable', meaning he could have easily returned to the game - the editor does not even mention that. The article you are using as a reference never even states that Young will miss eight games . This leaves for two options: either waiting for a legit and official source to confirm how much time Young will miss, or waiting till the end (or near end) of the season to claim that Young had a poor statistical performance in 2007. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk  16:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Young is also injured at the moment. He missed some of his Week 6 game, and all of Week 7. Isn't this time enough to add him?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.231.139 (talk) 20:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why people keep erasing Vince Young from the main page. HE GOT HURT AND DID NOT PLAY THE FOLLOWING GAME!. Despite what happens the rest of the season, you cannot rewind time. Plain and Simple, he missed Week 7 vs. Houston Texans and even if he bounces back and makes the pro-bowl. HE STILL MISSED ONE GAME. This obviously means he is a part of the curse, just like Ray Lewis who missed one game following his cover on the 2005 Madden, he was deemed a victim. Anyone who erases his name from the main article page, is severly retarded —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael2200 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it funny how you were not even to address any of my points - the current entry is uninformative, and fails to even mention any points that would make it even worth of mention in this article. Unless someone was following the wrong football, they know Young got injured. This is not a matter of reporting a news, especially since other news sources can do a much better and through job. This is a matter of presenting information that is  verifiable, accurate, non-biased, and substantial. Not some fan boy attempting to prove a point by jumping on every single event that supports it. Also, an injury does not necessarily have to define a curse - see Eddie George. Lastly, if you are going to call someone 'retarded', at least spell-check your entry before you post it ;). -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 04:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets do a poll, who here believes Vince Young, whom missed one game so far, should be on the page? My argument is despite what happens the rest of the season, he still missed one game see this webpage: http://www.nfl.com/gamecentergame_id=29287&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG7


 * Grow up.► Chris Nelson Holla! 19:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Garrison Hearst?
Does anybody have a screen of the Garrison Hearst cover? I know it says that the Madden-only cover was more popular, but I've never seen the Garrison Hearst one. I suppose the same with Madden 2000 and Barry Sanders. Sanders was the focus of the game and the new rushing additions, but ... I don't think he was ever on the cover of any versions in the final print.

Google is an amazing tool.Chris Nelson 00:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Leading Rusher
Apparently the Madden curse is about as bad as being the league's leading rusher the previous year. This came from the fouth reference. what do you say? 24.83.3.54 23:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Michael Vick's indictment
Would Michael Vick's legal troubles due to dogfighting be considered a continuation of the Madden Curse? Richiekim 15:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it took place two years after he appeared on the over :p -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 17:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

NEW POLL ON VINCE YOUNG
CHECK OUT THESE REFERENCES, THAT  ALL  point to Vince Young being a victim of the Madden Curse: http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/680038/Madden_Curse_Strikes_Again.html http://laist.com/2007/10/15/madden_curse.php http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/10/14/curse-of-madden-smites-vince-young/ http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=History_of_the_Madden_Curse http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-titans-young&prov=ap&type=lgns

Every user who checks this discussion page, please give a response yes or no, whether Vince Young should or should not be added to the main article page. Follow your response up with a quick justification upon why you believe so. (Mikael2200 12:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

I'll start off, yes because of the current definition per Wikipeida: The Madden Curse, also known as the Madden Cover Jinx, is a myth involving the video game series Madden NFL, stating that the season a player appears on the cover, that player will be cursed with either an  injury  or poor performance. Well, he got injured, even if its minor it still counts


 * Actually, can you even find a legit reference that defines the "Madden Curse"? You claimed, stating that the season a player appears on the cover, that player will be cursed with either an  injury  or poor performance, while Eddie George, Garrison Hearst, and Barry Sanders were never plagued with regular season injuries or poor performances. Before even going on, can you show me a legit reference (Not Something another user added) that clearly defines the curse? -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 21:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude, http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-04-17-madden-cover_N.htm. Another one: http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3474928&page=1

The second article (ABC NEWS) states in the title  Vince Young dons the Madden Curse Crown" . These clearly are "legit references"


 * Interestingly, those were two of the articles I found when I was looking for a proper definition of the curse. None of them could actually offer something straight, and that could be applied to every season (see my previous response). The ABC article was published over the summer, months before Young actually injured himself, and only speculates that something bad will happen to him. Since this article is to only mention actual victims, the article can (ironically) only support other certain instances of the curse :-p. Anyway, leave the poll open for a week, we’ll see if there are some good reasons to either add or remove content. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk  06:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

For one, I believe its just me and you arguing you whether he should be on the main article page. But check this webpage: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-titans-young&prov=ap&type=lgns It verifies that Vince Young did not play in the game vs. the Texans due to a quadricep injury. This article does not state that he is a victim of the Madden Curse but the consensus was that if a player misses a game and/or has a poor performance consitutes as a Madden Curse. Well, I don't think I need to explain any more, and furthermore I'm hoping you can gather your thoughts together because its getting out of hand. I'll just wait until the end of the season and things will pan out because obviously "ShadowJester07" cannot cogntively put things together. --User:Mikael2200


 * There was no such consensus. If there was, we would not be having this poll in the first place. As I stated before, Hearst, Sanders, Levens, and George were not even injured during the regular season. Mikael2200 believes that a cover athlete should be recognized in this article if they practically sneezed during their featured season; the same rationale that is even mocked within the article itself in [Ray Lewis' section]. We already had this discussion in the What constitutes a Madden Curse? topic. If you are going to base the Madden Curse on the principle that a player needs to be injured, then the article needs to be revised. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk  07:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The article should be revised then because according to most of the media and the tons of articles you can find online about the Madden Curse refers Young as a victim to the curse, at least add him for missing the one game and if he re-bounds you can edit the article then. However completely ignoring the fact that he got hurt,doesn't make any sense. ShadowJester (yes you, the only one that probably reads this) is in denial of Young being cursed (is he on your fantasy team or something) and I've noticed that many people pop in and out and edit the article for Vince Young and the Jester seem to be the only one deleting it. Watch this video of Jimmy Kimmel talking to Vince Young about the curse, Kimmel gives theimpression that "if a player gets hurt" they'll grace the "Madden Curse Crown" and guess what Young got hurt!...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tgRiJWOP-M

I think if we cannot agree on him at least being mentioned in the article, we'll need to go to an Arbitration resolution.  and plus why would you hide/delete his 1.10 article and leave his name mentioned in the first paragraph  at least be consistent

another article that explains Young being a Madden curse victim http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=History_of_the_Madden_Curse

Vince YOung is hurt and performing poorly. Reminds me of Ray Lewis. Let's call him cursed71.183.212.59 19:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If Young sustained a more serious injury, that made him miss at least two-three games, then I would not hesitate to add his name to the list. But, missing one game seems so menial, and almost irrelevant. If you the prior discussion, I stated that I would likely add Young to the article at the end of the season, primarily because he's preforming so poorly right now. I know he is hurt, we all know that. But there's a bigger debate as to what specifically constitutes as a Madden Curse. Also, please take note that of those four sources you mentioned, only the Yahoo! Sports article is considered a reliable source according to Wikipedia RS policies, and its already being used in the hidden text section. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 08:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Vince Young has 3 TDs, 8 INTs through 7 games. He is averaging 122 yards passing and 24 rushing yards per game this season after averaging 159 passing yards and 41 yards rushing last season in his 13 starts. His QB rating of 61.5 is 33rd out of 34 in the league. He missed a game to injury already. Ray Lewis is in this article for less, there is no doubt Vince Young should at least be mentioned here RealFerrari 00:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree RealFerrari, however some wiki-editors are apparently Vince Young fans, or maybe Vince Young himself, trying to cover up the apparent curse, he has caught —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.56.151 (talk) 19:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

What constitutes a Madden Curse?
With the recent possibe entry, Vince Young of the Tennessee Titans, there seems to be an argument over whether his recent injury is enough to be part of the curse. I feel people are getting far to fine on trying to dispose of the curse. Look, it's a fictional curse done mostly in jest. I can't believe there is a single intelligent person out there who believes being on the cover of a football game jinxes a football player.

Barry Sanders was not injured. He quit the game on his own. Eddie George had a fine year when he was on the cover. It was the following year that saw issues. So, stop trying to set a standard for the curse, because there isn't one.

Young was hurt, and the team lost a game they could have won. How is that any less of a curse than a guy hanging up his cleats under his own free will?
 * See my comments here: There are no no sources (as of 10/15) that confirm the severity of Young's injury - mind you, the Titan's officially listed Young's return as probable, meaning he was at least healthy enough to potentially return. Other than that, scroll up to see my reply. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk  02:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I can appreciate your thoughts, Shadow. It appears you have a great interest in this article, which is also good. I did not see the 8 weeks thing snuck in there. That was sloppy on my part to not remove that when I pasted it back, assuming it was how I left it. Again I reiterate though that there is no standard for this curse. Do you work in an office? Was there any chatter about Young's injury, regardless of how severe or light? I bet you most people immediately said "Madden Curse!" So, until there is a standard (and there won't be, because lets face it, there is no such thing as a Madden Curse), just let it go. He was injured. And yes.. I stole your little signiture box. Forgive me for being a little green, but I do think I have some valid points and make a well constructed argument. -- Drksandman ► Talk 02:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Young could sneeze, and football fanatics would claim the Madden Curse has struck again. While I agree with you that there there is no standard for the curse, it's probably a good idea to make sure that other users do not over blow the incident (ex adding young will be lost for the season). I don't think we should add the incident since it seems so minor. Then again, I guess we have to wait for a legit source to confirm the severity of the injury. However I think it would be slightly less biased if we stated Young was listed as probable in addition to the fact he's on DTD. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 03:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said above, please add to the Poll on Vince Young. Shadow visit this page: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29287&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG7. That'd be the gamecenter for the Titans vs. Texans page, please note that Vince Young did not play. I'll repeat that again. Vince Young DID NOT PLAY this game, due to an injury —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael2200 (talk • contribs) 13:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The important thing to remember is, there is no Madden Curse. It's all bullshit. But no, Vince Young should not be mentioned here because the season isn't over and for all we know he could win the Super Bowl. But he'll be on here eventually - someone will twist some shit around to show how he was "cursed." It's pathetic this article even exists.► Chris Nelson Holla! 14:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's American football. Everybody always gets injured all the time.  It seems like only Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Mr. Concussion ...oh, wait... not him :)  Anyway, Brady and P. Manning are the only quarterbacks who avoid injury.  It's very likely that every single year that the player on the Madden cover will get injured.  If one gets injured and sits out a couple games, that's not a significant enough absence, and the injury isn't that bad.  Wait until the end of the season where we can tell how many games he misses.


 * But yeah, Chris is right about the actual curse. It's only a curse because we think it is, because media talks about it too much.  Players getting injured is very common in American football, and the media simply makes the curse seem more true.  Players getting injured is common and random.  Vince Young would've suffered that injury if he weren't on the curse.


 * Also, in regards to the first section here, please see Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Ksy92003(talk)  14:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The curse is not just about the cover player being injured. Everyone wants to use the extent of Young's injury as an excuse not to include him. Barry Sanders' inclusion has nothing to do with injury. Culpepper was just having a bad year, and had he not been injured, would have been included based on poor performance. The fact is, Vince Young was hurt, and missed game time. There is no Madden Curse law that states you have to miss a certain number of games, quarters, or minutes before you can be included. He was hurt. His stats have declined. He belongs on this list. -- Drksandman ► Talk 23:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.191.166.202 (talk)

We don't suggest the players are cursed - we are merely reporting on each player who has been on the cover - per precedent. If we tried to base who to put on based on who we thought had a lesser season, it would be OR. Shadow we aren't trying to provide evidence to prove the theory - we're listing everyone.-- daniel  folsom  04:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Luis Castillo-Is Spanish language Curse Extension?
San Diego Chargers defensive end Luis Castillo is on a Spanish-language version of Madden 08 that will be released in December. It was announced today that he will miss six weeks after surgery. Does the curse take affect in Spanish as well as English, or have I loset my mind?71.183.212.59 00:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no curse.► Chris Nelson Holla! 00:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Come on, look at the context of the article. It's probably a good assessment that he's been bit by the curse. Context Context Context. --Raderick (talk) 06:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

How is Ray Lewis cursed?
He averaged 9.8 tackles a game with 147. It was a good year. Interceptions don't mean anything for linebackers. Brian Urlacher went almost two years without and interception, and that was in his prime. What does playoffs have to do with it? Hes a defensive player, how is it his fault that they missed the playoffs? Anyways the AFC North was good that year, both the Steelers and Bengals made the playoffs..--Coasttocoast 19:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * People are stupid and believe in stupid, nonsensical things like curses.► Chris Nelson Holla! 21:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

question on this, did Ray Lewis get injured at all, Id say no because 147 does sound awesome for a linebacker in one year, make that for any defender, oh and curses do sound pretty dumb, but you have to admit, with all the other players getting hurt, its just wierd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.92.10 (talk) 14:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * yes how weird is it that players get injured in a physical sport. just the other day i saw a boxer with a bruised eye and another with a cut eye, theres definately some powerful forces at work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.149.209 (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Donovan McNabb-Is he still a victim?
Donovan McNabb was one the Madden 06 cover (to remind everyone, he went down with a hernia that year, in which Philly blew up). The next year, he hurt his leg, leading to Jeff Garcia's chance to lead the team, whihc he did to a playoff spot. Now, he has an injured leg and thumb. Can this be seen as a long-term curse? If it is, the curse can't be broken. 71.183.212.59 (talk) 21:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no such thing as a curse.► Chris Nelson Holla! 21:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed Vince Young
Im removed him from the article. Last year Vince Young was ranked 32nd out all the quarterbacks in the league. He had horrible numbers. He threw 12 TDs and 13 INTs. Ther Titans finished 8-8 and missed the playoffs.The only reason he ended on the Madden cover was becuase he had a few game winning drives that ended in dramatic fashion. (remember the overtime game vs the Texans.)

This year the Titans are 9-6 and possible 10-6. Either way its a better record than last year. This year he has 9 TDs and 17 INTS with 1 more game to go. Thats not much of a difference from last year, theres no dramatic change that would indicate a curse. Going from 8-8 to 10-6 is cursed?--Coasttocoast (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a curse, let alone a Madden Curse. The whole description is fronted by the word "myth", so arguing whether or not Vince Young is cursed based on actual statistics and facts is pointless because the actual fact is that there is no curse. The point of the Madden Curse is to identify evidence that supports the assertion that the curse exists, and thus Vince Young should be included no matter what his individual or team statistics are. To say that Vince Young is not cursed is to say there is no curse which is to say this entire article should be removed because it describes something that is obviously imaginary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.173.70 (talk) 07:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't suggest the players are cursed - we are merely reporting on each player who has been on the cover - per precedent. If we tried to base who to put on based on who we thought had a lesser season, it would be OR-- daniel  folsom  06:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed him again. Its all original research anyways. 12 TDs last season, and 9 this season. Thats not cursed. Its just another average year for Young. This article really shouldn't exist, it diplays theses curses as FACTS, and their not. --Coasttocoast (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Again - we aren't suggesting that there is a curse - we are merely listing all the players listed - the readers can interpret the information any way they want. You're trying to only put in information to prove the theory ("that's not cursed [so I removed him]") - and by doing that you're allowing yourself to determine what is and what is not "cursed" - and that is original research. And you're the only one trying to display the curse as fact- and therefore you're statement about the article's existence is irrelevant.-- daniel  folsom  05:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The article has an interesting way of saying ‘who’ is cursed. As I have previously stated, there is no reliable source on the internet that clearly defines the ‘Madden Curse’ – meaning anything can potentially be fair grounds for adding a player to the section. I found this article some time back - which specifically notes Barry Sanders, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick, Ray Lewis, Shaun Alexander, all witnessed a decline in their statistics (or had something unusual happen to them). However, the Garrison Hearst, Dorsey Levens, Eddie George, Marshall Faulk claims do not really follow tho those patterns. As  Chrisjnelson noted, certain users seemingly twisted any mistake or shortcoming a player had to make it seem like the ‘Madden Curse’ effects everyone who appears on the cover.


 * The case of Vince Young is even more interesting. Young improved his numbers and led the Titans to a wildcard berth, but also had some non-serious injury problems. Nevertheless, I have yet to find a reliable source (not a blog, forum, or v-log), that explicitly claims Young’s injuries were brought on by the Madden Curse. Furthermore, in order to keep this article in accordance to Wikipedia’s attribution policy, I suggest adding some references to verify claims. ;) -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 09:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok ... the article can't say "who" is cursed. I keep saying that - we're merely (and obviously more info is needed still) listing every player who was on the madden game - and we're listing his stats with it. I really can't repeat that enough - WE DON'T SAY WHO IS AND WHO ISN'T CURSED. The readers can decide that for themselves, but the whole point of the madden curse is that EVERY player who covers on madden is cursed - therefore every player needs to be listed (with his stats preferably).-- daniel  folsom  07:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you sure this article makes that distinction? Can anyone who reads this article automatically assume that these are just a list of players who appeared on a Madden game, and brief description of what happened to them? - As opposed to this article being John Madden's hit list? I more than agree with you that Young should be added to list (for continuity reasons) on the grounds for the first reason. However, I think it would be best to clarify the purpose of the list somewhere in the article. -- ShadowJester07 ► Talk 07:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * We might have to make the distinction - but the list can have no other purpose than to provide information - because it will become very murky if we try and sort out who is and isn't cursed-- daniel  folsom  03:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I put Vince young BACK in here with some definate cursing. And no article will seriously say 'Vince Young was injured because a madden Curse broke his leg'. It's a list of players who for some reason end up having major problems following their appearence on the cover of the Madden Game. Vince Young hurt his knee and then went crazy and got replaced. That is pretty significant.Nor3aga (talk) 07:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)YOU SARE NOT ALLAG


 * I have already told you that this is not a strong enough argument, especially since you cannot find any policies to back up such an arbitrary decision. Your proposed format has already been shot down, months ago I may add, for reasons I already specified on your talk page.--  StarScream1007  ►Talk  16:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I support Starscream's decision here. The addition is entirely WP:SYNthesized from other sources. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 17:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

This article is awful
Right now this article is just "List of Cover Athletes and why Their Cursed". The list biased and puts a spin on every section to prove the Madden Curse exists. In the discussion above someone said "we are merely listing all the players listed- the readers can interpret the information any way they want" Yea the article is listing info that leans toward the Madden Curse being true and leaves out the rest.... -- Coasttocoast (talk) 03:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have written a more concise and neutral revision of this article, here. Suggestions? --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  03:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That article isn't any better, because it's a violation of WP:SYN. That's the whole problem with this article: it's all based on editors taking separate facts together to make up their own theories. Wikipedia is not a place for original research. I'd almost consider marking this article for deletion based on that. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 03:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not see how the article is making up claims; all the claims are stated in the cited references, er atleast mine ;). I think it would be more on the lines of WP:SYNTH if I made up something like "the Madden curse only effects running backs" based on the fact that raw statistical data. Various sources believe that the curse exists. Given that the sources are reliable, and not any fringe theory of sorts, I believe they can be |stated on Wikipedia. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  03:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, your version is better than what we have, but still has some synthesis. For example, you draw a connection with Garrison Hearst. You can quote things to say that he was on the cover, and also that he injured himself post-season, but it seems to infer some connection with the curse. It walks the SYN line very closely, but given what we currently have, I'd take yours. So put it up if you want; I won't revert. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 04:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The key here is that we should not simply state misfortunes suffered by cover athletes. This article should ONLY contain an explanation of what the supposed curse is, with sourced, and then give reliable sources connecting the curse to each cover athlete. This is not the place for people to suggest reasons why a player is cursed or why he isn't. It's only to inform that the curse is a discussed subject in the sports and gaming world.► Chris Nelson Holla! 04:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, upon reviewing my revision again, the middle paragraph really looks synthetic - I agree with HelloAnnoying and feel it should be removed unless there's something to back it up. Given this article has little substance to begin with, perhaps it would be best to redirect to Madden NFL and expand it's Madden Curse section. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  05:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a bad idea. I'd support a merge, but I would use the text from your article on the main page. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 05:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Does anyone oppose? --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  01:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree - as long as the curse section isn't in every article about ever years Madden game and is ONLY in the one about the franchise itself.  Cra sh U  nderride  21:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo Sports
Article linked from here. --69.42.9.46 (talk) 05:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

3O
Hey. Someone posted on the third opinion page about Shadowjester's edits, more specifically this one. I've removed the request because there's nothing wrong here. This version, by, is a vandalism of sorts. Sentences such as those should be sourced, so making POV statements such as "This has caused a public relations nightmare in the 2008 offseason for the team. The Madden curse continues" absolutely need to be sourced. See WP:RS and WP:V for more. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 05:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)