Talk:Madeline Montalban/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 20:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Someone local to me and someone I imagine a lot of my more occult-minded friends would be very interested in. Review to follow soon. J Milburn (talk) 20:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Having read the article, it's coming back to me now- I roleplayed in a game which featured the OMS once. I definitely have a few friends interested in this subject!


 * "believed that the Luciferian faith that she propagated had its origins" Slightly clumsy wording.
 * I'm very aware of the fact that this is sourced primarily to works from within the occult world, so I'm going to be quite picky concerning tone- "was an insurance agent of unknown parentage, while her mother, Marion Neruda Shaw, had grown up in Oldham as the daughter of a master tailor." This sounds a little grand for an encyclopedia article
 * "Another of her accounts held" Montalban's, or Philips's?
 * "although when and why he changed it remains unknown." Again- I can imagine occultists being keen to be "shrouded in mystery" (or portray their heroes as such) and I don't think the article should really be pandering to that.
 * "A fireman, Montalban bore him a daughter, Rosanna, but their relationship deteriorated," The phrase "bore him a daughter" is slightly archaic; "they had a daughter"?
 * "working as a "personal clairvoyant and psychic advisor" to Lord Louis Mountbatten." That's sheer bollocks, surely?
 * Probably, but it's what Gardner claimed.... then again, he claimed an awful lot of nonsense. As it stands, the article doesn't outright state that it is true, just that Gardner claimed it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It's funny, I showed the article to a friend more familiar with the occult, and that's what she said. Perhaps it would be worth mentioning Gardner's general unreliability? Certainly, I wouldn't like readers to think that Wikipedia is any way endorsing Gardner's claims. J Milburn (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "The manuscript constituted a novel known as High Magic's Aid," Over-wordy?
 * In the lead, you say "she became known to the press as "The Witch of St. Giles", a moniker she despised. She died of lung cancer in 1982." In the prose, your claim isn't as strong: she "was particularly angry when the esoteric magazine Man, Myth and Magic referred to her as "The Witch of St. Giles", an area of Central London which she would later inhabit.[26]"
 * "for publication in magazines." Do we know the names of these magazines?
 * "The couple sent out lessons to those who paid the necessary fees over a series of weeks, eventually leading to the twelfth lesson, which contained The Book of Lumiel, a short work written by Montalban that documented her understanding of Lumiel and his involvement with humankind." Who or what is Lumiel?
 * "like the Picatrix, Corpus Hermeticum, The Heptameron of Peter d'Abano, The Key of Solomon, The Book of Abramelin, and Cornelius Agrippa's Occult Philosophy." Any of these worth linking?
 * Most of them already are linked; two aren't, because I don't think they have Wikipedia articles devoted to them yet. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's my point- don't be scared of redlinks. If the topics warrant articles, a redlink is not a bad thing. J Milburn (talk) 12:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, I'll convert them in that case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:32, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "From 1964 until 1966 she dwelt in a flat at 8 Holly Hill, Hampstead," Is the exact address significant? (Same in the next line.)
 * It might be a little superfluous, but if it were up to me I'd leave it in, particularly for any occult sight-seers who might be interested. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "While she did not usually respond to enquiries, something made her decide to do so in Howard's case" As above- slightly "mysterious" tone
 * Is the relationship with Howard mentioned by anyone other than Howard?
 * It is mentioned, though not in such depth, in a recent paper from Fredrik Gregorious. Midnightblueowl (talk)
 * Ooh, excellent, another source from a mainstream publisher. Could citations to that paper by added elsewhere in the article, if appropriate? J Milburn (talk) 12:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that that particular paper deals only very briefly with Montalban and Howard; nothing more is really of use here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:32, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "Her letters focused" What do you mean by "her letters"?
 * Perhaps the Hutton quote belongs in the Legacy section? As he's a more "mainstream" historian, seeing his stuff is important. Also, there shouldn't really be anything in the lead not in the prose.
 * The sources seem appropriate, even if the number of occult names does make me pause slightly. I'm inclined to think that they're not the most rigorously academic of publications! What makes DouglasSheridan.com reliable?
 * Unfortunately, I think my use of sources has been thoroughly comprehensive; it would be nice if academics like Hutton decided to write more about her, but that's just not the state of affairs at the moment. As such I have had to rely on non-academic sources from within the esoteric community. DouglasSheridan is the website of the individuals who are legally entitled to continue propagating Montalban's legacy, so that gives them some reliability in my opinion; problematically there just aren't any other sources available! Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the "magician" category is more for Paul Daniels and Derren Brown; however, Category:English occult writers, Category:English occultists, Category:English Luciferians, Category:Esotericists, Category:Hermeticists, Category:Occult tarot and Category:Tarot reading may be appropriate- your choice. Category:People from Blackpool and Category:Deaths from lung cancer may be some useful, if mundane, additions.
 * I've left the "magician" category because it isn't explicit as to what it refers to, and terminologically speaking, Montalban is as much a "magician" as Paul Daniels, but have added all of your other suggestions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you check your ISBNs? I'm not sure they're all valid.

In all, you're a great writer, but I worry that, in places, what should be a neutral encyclopedia article drifts into something a little more fanciful. J Milburn (talk) 21:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * These are some great comments, thank you! I will get around to making the necessary corrections over the next week. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've had a play with the references (please double-check the changes I've made- I don't want to ruin your page refs) but I'm having trouble with the following sources-
 * Hutton, Ronald (1999). The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0198207441. The ISBN seems to be invalid, and I can find no 1999 version ISBN online. Could you check your hard copy?
 * Philips, Julia (2012). Madeline Montalban: The Magus of St. Giles. Bloomsbury, London: Neptune Press. ISBN 978-0-9547063-9-5. ISBN invalid, couldn't find the ISBN online. Could you check your hard copy?
 * Valiente, Doreen (1989). The Rebirth of Witchcraft. London: Robert Hale. ISBN 978-0709037155. ISBN invalid, couldn't find this version online. Again, could you check your hard copy?
 * Once these ISBNs are dealt with, and possibly with a comment about Gardner's general unreliability, I'll be happy to promote. (The WebCitation link doesn't seem to be working, but that's not the end of the world.) J Milburn (talk) 19:53, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * According to my hard copies, Hutton (1999) is ISBN 978-0198207441; Philips (2012) is ISBN 978-0954706395; Valiente (1989) is ISBN 0709037155. Here's a great quote from Hutton that can be used to testify to Gardner's unreliability: "perfectly capable of... trickery, dissimulation, and plagiarism... anecdotes from very different sources testify to his capacity to be at times (depending on one's viewpoint) either a liar or a prankster." (p. 239). Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've found the Valiente source (strangely, the 13-digit ISBN doesn't seem to register), but I still can't find the others in the versions you have them. I'm not particularly fussed; I can imagine that the particular versions you have may have been very small runs, and I can certainly find evidence that the books themselves exist. I'm going to go ahead and promote. J Milburn (talk) 21:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Difficult one to classify- I've put her in "religious figures and leaders", but feel free to move the article to a more appropriate topic, if you feel there is one. J Milburn (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)