Talk:Madison University/Archive 1

Let's stop this incipient revert war
IS WIKIPEDIA AUTHORIZED BY THE US CONGRESS TO QUALIFY OR DISQUALIFY A SCHOOL? WHO IS WIKIPEDIA? IS IT JUST A "FREELANCE PRIVATE BLOG" ? WHERE IS THE PHYSICAL ADDRESS OF WIKIPEDIA ? WHERE IS THEIR HEADQUARTERS ? WHO CREATED WIKIPEDIA ? BASED ON WHAT LAWS ? IS IT AN OFFICIAL STATE OR GOVERNMENTAL WEBSITE ? WIKIPEDIA IS A "FREE" ENCYCLOPEDIA THAT HAS NO ADMINISTRATION BODY, NO OFFICE, NO AUTHORITY, NO REGULATIONS FROM AYNONE. THAT IS GOOD - THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF FREEDOM - WIKIPEDIA SHOULD PROMOTE AND PROTECT THE FREEDOM IT ENJOYS. DO NOT BETRAY YOURSELF !! WHY EVERYTHING I READ AND WRITE HAS TO BE APPROVED BY THE US GOVERNMENT ?

I REST MY CASE. THANKS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.80.226 (talk) 22:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Some users are removing sourced content from this article, and others of us are persisting in putting that content back. It appears that we need to discuss the situation....

The edit summary for the latest removal of content says that the "Oregon State Office Of Degree Authorization refers to Madison University ONLY AS AN UN-ACCREDITED school", not as a diploma mill.

It is true that the List of Unaccredited Universities on the Oregon website does not identify Madison (nor any other school) as a diploma mill. However, that Oregon website list is not the only item that Oregon has ever disseminated on the subject of unaccredited schools and diploma mills, and the material removed from the article did not reference the Oregon website. Instead, the removed material referenced published articles (specifically, Bartlett, Thomas and Scott Smallwood, June 25, 2004, "Maxine Asher Has a Degree for You" http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i42/42a01201.htm The Chronicle of Higher Education and James Varney, "Mailbox U: After Louisiana cracked down on diploma mills several distance-learning institutions moved to Mississippi". Times-Picayune (New Orleans) August 1, 2004 Pg. 1) that stated that Oregon had identified this school as a diploma mill. Changing the wording of direct quotations from these sources, deleting the source citations, and/or replacing the URLs with links to the State of Mississippi is neither intellectually honest nor acceptable Wiki-practice.

I believe that these changes are vandalism and I will continue to revert them. If the supporters of Madison have reliably sourced information that points out problems with the information from the Chronicle of Higher Education and the New Orleans Times-Picayune, please provide it here so we can discuss it. --orlady 17:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC) Regards, Exmarine
 * Response to "orlady": Please use the wording precisely, otherwise, YOU are the problem. You wrote MU school was identified as dipploma mill by the state of Oregon. The website of state of Oregon only refers to MU as un-accredited school. So the wording you used was not precise. If you replace state of Oregon by a name of a newspaper, that's another story. My wife got a job as a fast food restaurant night shift supervisor using a AA degree from Madison University, she feeds three young children age from 4 to 11 with income from her job. She feeds my family with her job and she is a good mother with all she learned from Madison University, I am very pround of her.
 * For the record, here's the diff that gives the source of the above comment. --orlady 02:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Before refactoring by unregistered users, the original unsigned comment by Patrick Vorkapich read "Response to "orlady": Please use the wording precisely, otherwise, YOU are the problem. You wrote MU school was identified as dipploma mill by the state of Oregon. The website of state of Oregon only refers to MU as un-accredited school. So the wording you used was not precise. If you replace state of Oregon by a name of a newspaper, that's another story. My wife got a job as a fast food restaurant night shift supervisor using a AA degree from Madison University, she feeds three young children age from 4 to 11 with income from her job. So what do you want? kick my wife out of work and kill all of my children? Over my dead body baby. I am a war vet who lost part of my body on the battle field while protecting my country. My wife got a degree from a sub-standard school and got a sub-standard job. However, she feeds my family with her job and She is no criminal and I will protect my family with every things I still have in me. Regards, Exmarine" --orlady 20:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Response to the author of the above comment by Patrick Vorkapich signed "Exmarine": The disputed passage in the article does not quote or cite the Oregon website. It cites the Chronicle of Higher Education (see link), which states (in part): "Although some member institutions, like Columbus University and Madison University, have been labeled diploma mills by the state of Oregon, Ms. Asher defends her members, saying they generally provide more individual attention than traditional universities do." When you change the wording in the article from "diploma mill" to "unaccredited," you are not accurately quoting the cited source. Nothing against your wife; we are merely trying to provide sourced information accurately.--orlady 16:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Response to Orlady: 1. You wrote "Columbus University and Madison University, have been labeled diploma mills by the state of Oregon". Please provide the state of Oregon website that said so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.250.29 (talk) 01:32, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
 * Go to the article. Read the sentence about the state of Oregon calling this a diploma mill. You will see the number 6 next to that sentence. This indicates a footnote. Click on the number 6; that will take you to the note in the References section of the article. That note includes a link to http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i42/42a01201.htm, which is an article that was published in printed form in a periodical called the Chronicle of Higher Education. That article, in a reliable source, states that Oregon had called Madison a diploma mill. The words do not currently appear on an Oregon website, but they are in a reliable source. Much worthwhile information is found in outlets that are not websites. --orlady 02:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Please check the Oregon website (http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx). The words “degree mills” do not appear on the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization website. A call to the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization (541- 687-7452) confirmed that they never call Madison a “degree mill” before. 2. Dr. Asher was born in Chicago. Her family moved to Southern California, where she earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from the University of California at Los Angeles. She became a public-school teacher, got married, and had three daughters. She later returned to college, earning a master's degree in ancient history from California State University at Northridge. Dr.. Asher holds a doctorate in education from Walden University and a Ph.D. in linguistics from the University of Granada, in Spain, both of which are accredited by government-approved agencies. -- The above comment was added at 21:39 (EDT), 27 August 2007 by 151.199.250.29

Added reference, removed reference
I removed the following reference:

Because:
 * It is not news
 * It does not point to a specific page.

I added the following reference:
 * http://www.madisonu.com/accreditation.html

Because
 * Madison University itself discloses the government status (lack there of) of the World Association of Universities and Colleges.
 * Madison University itself discloses this causes problems for students who use federal funds.

I would like to see the first reference improved and added back in (e.g., with a link to a specific page.) Headdream 04:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Material moved from article page
I found the following "talk" comment (posted by User:Leman123456) misplaced on the article page: "The school is un-accredited, but it's not a degree mill. We should be fair and honest to everyone, rich or poor. The words “degree mills” do not appear on an Oregon website. A call to the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization (541- 687-7452) confirmed that they never call Madison a “degree mill” before." That kind of comment belongs on a talk page, so I moved it here. Also, I revised the article to identify the reliable source that is the basis for the statement that Leman123456 disagrees with.--orlady 22:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Just now I removed the following comment (posted by User:151.199.250.29) from the article page: The words “degree mills” do not appear on the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization website (anyone can find its website using Google). A call to the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization (541- 687-7452) confirmed that they never call Madison a “degree mill” before, however, it is one of the unaccredited schools on their list. We (the educated elite) have to behave honestly and fairly to everyone: rich, poor, smart, average, below-average, etc,. "Let the true be opened in the open". The degrees from unaccredited schools have a limited value, if any in the US, but do not overkill them - (Please do not remove this paragraph unless you are Osama Bin Laden or the likes). As with the previous item, comments on editing belong on a talk page, not in an encyclopedia article. I agree that the statement at issue is not currently on the ODA website, but I repeat the point that the article does not cite the ODA as the source of the statement. It is an historical citation to another reliable source. --orlady 17:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Info from archive.org
Note (also posted on 151.199.250.29 talk page): Although the ODA website is not the source of the historical statement in the article, on archive.org I find that from July 2004 until sometime around February 2005 ODA website, as archived stated the following regarding Madison University: "Appears to be a diploma mill. ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards." That language first appeared on the website in July 2004 and remained until approximately February 2005, when it was revised to "ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards." --orlady 20:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Orlady, I appreciate your effort to clear up the issue. However, 1) the word "Appears" is not a definitive word and 2) ODA contacted the institution and decided to REMOVE the term "degree mill" for some reasons. I suggest us to remove the term "degree mill" from our Wikipedia page as well. That is all I ask out of fairness for everyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.250.29 (talk) 23:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As has been stated numerous times, the statements in the article are not sourced to the ODA website, but to publications that stated that Oregon had called this university a diploma mill. The article makes it clear that these are statements made in published sources at dates in the past. In case you have not read it recently, the article at http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i42/42a01201.htm, about Maxine Asher and World Association of Universities and Colleges, says (in part): "In 1993 she founded the World Association of Universities and Colleges, an accrediting service unrecognized by the U.S. Department of Education, that gives its imprimatur to a host of alternative institutions. Almost every day Columbus University and Lacrosse University, both of which are considered diploma mills by some government regulators, advertise in the back pages of USA Today. In bold type, they tout their accreditation from the association. That makes Ms. Asher a central figure in the shadowy world of unaccredited higher education.... Although some member institutions, like Columbus University and Madison University, have been labeled diploma mills by the state of Oregon, Ms. Asher defends her members, saying they generally provide more individual attention than traditional universities do. The real difference, she argues, is that they don't cost as much."(emphasis added) --orlady 01:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130511214909/http://www.mississippi.edu/mcca/downloads/MCCANonApprovedEntitiesList.pdf to http://www.mississippi.edu/mcca/downloads/MCCANonApprovedEntitiesList.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011001603/http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html to http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html
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