Talk:Madonna/Archive 11

All the links were removed in her lead
Somebody had removed all links in her lead here. I have a feeling it's somebody I know who is a fan of another diva who kept on inflating her idol's sales. Can we retrieve all the links to put back in this artist's intro? And is there a way we can keep an eye on this "somebody" I am referring to? Ikabod08 (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * are u refering to Petergriffin, a fan of mariah carey? LOL! he's been on the watchlist i believe. i am guessin his purpose is to mess up with madonna's article and everything that's put in the intro here be deleted. wikipedia moderators, BEWARE OF THIS!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.155.55 (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * He he he, I haven't even edited this article in weeks. If you fools knew a thing or two, you would ask Legolas why there are no links in the lead. According to Wikipedia rules if you have the sources in the articles body, you don't need it in the lead. I find it funny, a IP and a lost editor would look to meddle in problems that do not concern them.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   06:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Guinness World Records 2011
I just find an information on various website that the latest edition of Guinness Worlds Records lists Madonna as the top-selling female recording artist. Can we add that info to the article and gave the book source in the reference section??? I think that's a very notable info and Guinness has been one of most reputable organization to note many world records over the years. Bluesatellite (talk) 06:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Where did you get this info? Does it indicate the sales figure to support Madonna is the "top-selling female artist?" Guinness World Records is definitely a reputable organization citing awards to artists like Michael Jackson as the "greatest entertainer of all time," to name a few. Ikabod08 (talk) 00:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Guiness corrected that info in the updated version of the books. Madonna's still at 200 million worldwide which includes 75 million in US. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's right. IFPI press release in 2006 also claimed the same. But can we add the title "top-selling female female recording artist" to the article? Bluesatellite (talk) 07:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That we can probably do. Let's see what others think of it. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 07:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

No mention of rape?
The Independent reports that when Madonna was a dancer in New York, she was raped:

"The author attempts to make sense of this behaviour by emphasising the fact that Madonna was also raped. As a struggling dancer in New York, she was dragged up an alleyway and forced to perform fellatio at knifepoint. Madonna drew on this episode in the 1993 film Dangerous Game, when her character describes a similar thing happening to her."

A little surprised that this article doesn't make mention of this rather important fact... – Chase  ( talk ) 22:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This was later disbunked as a fake addition in the book by other reputed authors like Taraborrelli. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, was not aware. My bad. I notice that the source of the rumor, Madonna: Like an Icon, is cited in the article. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a little shaky, considering the false information included? – Chase  ( talk ) 13:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually it was this addition in the book which was debunked, other parts were pretty much the stereo forward Madonna biography, following Andrew Morton's book. Hence, using the book to cite something like Maodnna's musical prowess is fine, but I believe it can't be trusted when it comes to her life as a whole. Same with some of the other books like The Complete Guide to the Music of Madonna, Goddess, Inside Madonna, Madonna: The Style Book etc. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 13:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know where in the Taraborrelli biography did he said that the information on Like An Icon is fake, this seem impossible since his book is from 2001 and the O'Brien biography is from 2007, and she have the Morton biography as a note for that part of the book. Also the Taraborrelli biography does mention this incident:

Madonna soon learned, however that a young woman could not always be so trusting of people, particulary of men she might meet on the streets of New York. Years later, when she was famous for controversial anecdotes about herself, Madonna revealed that she had been attacked in New York at this time. "I have been raped and it is not an experience I would ever glamorize," she revealed. This subject came up while she was discusing scenes from her controversial book of nude studies entitled Sex."

"I know there are a lot of women who have the fantasy of being overpowered by two men or a group of men." One photograph in her book depicts Madonna dressed in a schoolgirl's uniform while being attacked by two boys. She insisted that the photograph, however, was pure fantasy. "It's completely consensual," she said. "Everybody wants to do it." Madonna did not give any details of her own experience, saying only that, "It happened a long time ago, so over the years I've come to terms with it. In a way it was real eye-opening experience. I'd only lived in New York for a year and I was very young, very trusting of people."

"I remember her saying something about it," her longtime friend Erica Bell recalls. "But it wasn't something I felt she wanted to discuss openly. I think it was a date rape, menaing I think she knew the guy. It was someone who betrayed her confidence, her faith. It must have been devastating."

Says another friend-a woman who stills knows Madona today and in whom she often confides-"The date rape was something she never wanted to talk about. But when it did come up, you could tell that she was deeply affected by whatever happened. She cried when she spoke of it, as if she hab been traumitatized. She said, 'I wanted to call my father and tell him about it, maybe go home for a while. But he would have killed me.' I felt that she needed a father at the time, but was afraid to turn to him. I know she could have used a mother, as well. These were lonely years."


 * This is taken from Madonna an Intimate Biography by J. Randy Taraborrelli. 2001. The chapter is Finally ... New York City! and the pages are 35, 36 and 37. Regards. Frcm1988 (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Taraborrelli's book is much updated to the 2007 version which includes sessions of Hard CAndy also. It is specifically this chapter which I have pointed to. "It was someone who betrayed her confidence, her faith. It must have been devastating." After this line, there is a statement by Taraborrelli stating "Seems unlikely that such things were taken so lightheartedly by Madonna, however says another friend-a woman..." You get my point? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But this is not the place to put what Taraborrelli thinks about the incident, she actually said that she was raped on the December 1995 issue of New Musical Express:

Interviewer: "The one really unsettling image in Sex is the ‘rape fantasy’ in the gym. Were you aware that you had to handle it very carefully, or was it just another photograph?"

Madonna looks at me questioningly: Madonna: "Where the two schoolboys are attacking me and I’m wearing my Catholic schoolgirl’s uniform?… It was just another fantasy of mine, being overpowered. I have been raped and it’s not an experience I would ever glamourise. But I know that there are a lot of women who have that fantasy where they are overpowered by two men or a group of men."

Interviewer: The term ‘rape fantasy’ is an oxymoron anyway. Rape means to take by force. against somebody’s will.

Madonna: "Exactly. In my photograph it’s obviously completely consensual. Everybody wants to do it. I have a smile on my face because I am having a good tone, I suppose it’s not really a rape fantasy if the woman wants to do it. It’s just a case of pretending not to be interested when you really are."

Interviewer: I didn’t know that you’d been raped.

Madonna: "You’re the first person I’ve ever told."

Interviewer: Was it a date rape situation, someone you knew?

Madonna: "No… a complete stranger."

Interviewer: Did you get help afterwards?

Madonna: "No. I was very young and I didn’t know anybody. I’d just moved to New York and… It was a very educational experience."

Madonna grimaces and falls silent.

Interviewer: Would you rather stop talking about this?

Madonna: "I don’t want to talk about it only in that…” she pauses, choosing her words carefully, “I don’t want to get into this Oprah Winfrey/Sinead O’Connor thing of, ‘Oh, everybody, all these horrible things have happened to me!’ I don’t want to make it an issue. I think that I’ve had what a lot of people would consider to be horrific experiences in my life. But I don’t want people to feel sorry for me because I don’t."

"It happened a long time ago so over the years I’ve come to terms with it. In a way it was a real eye-openning experience. I’d only lived in Now York for a year and I was very young, very trusting of people. I came from the mid-West and I was walking around New York City like everyone was my friend. That experience completely turned me round in terms of becoming much more street smart and much more savvy. It’s that old expression, y’know, everything than doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I was very disturbed about it afterwards but I knew that I couldn’t go back home. There was just no way that I was going back home."


 * The biographies are only reporting what she actually said in 1995, those are not rumors. Frcm1988 (talk) 03:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But why does Taraborrelli debunk it then?? I'm confused now. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I really can't say why did he wrote that, but I think this episode should be discussed in the article, there are plenty of sources to support it. Frcm1988 (talk) 04:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Where do you think it should be added then? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This happened before she meet Patrick Hernandez. So probably after: Madonna said of her move to New York, "It was the first time I'd ever taken a plane, the first time I'd ever gotten a taxi cab. I came here with $35 in my pocket. It was the bravest thing I'd ever done and before: While performing as a dancer for the French disco artist Patrick Hernandez on his 1979 world tour... Frcm1988 (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a link to that NME interview? For future reference while developing Sex. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is the complete interview: Frcm1988 (talk) 05:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Album-Record sales
Madonna's record sales were listed at 250 million, with a reliable source from "The Independent". I would like to know why now we are only listing the sales of her albums?-- Peter Griffin   &bull;  Talk   06:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you link me to the Independent source? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 06:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Madonna's sold about 250 million albums and about 140 million singles, the albims are confirmed by the Ifpi, singles in excess of 105 millions are easy to count yet less easy to confirm exacctly as singles sales are notr as well monitored. This means, howeveer about 400 million records sold altogether. It is quite normal to count just albums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmariorossi (talk • contribs) 17:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, this is the source. It seems reliable and is not contradicting the current source, as it is only natural the number would be higher do to single sales.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   08:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this can be easily used seeing the reliability of the source. Thanks Peter, would you like to do the honors? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 08:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, thanks Legolas, glad I could be of help...:)-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   09:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Say, why would we remove "behind Barbra Streisand" from the article as was done in this edit? Saying Madonna is in second place begs the question of who is on first. Binksternet (talk) 15:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I commented on this at the featured article nomination because it was mentioned in the lead section but not in the article.  I suggested to [User:Legolas]] that it should be removed from the lead or added to the article body, and that I would prefer it be added to the article body.  Legolas agreed and added it to the "Legacy" section.  I think it should be included for the same reason you've given - because it does beg the question.  Rossrs (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like the same was done to the Mariah Carey article, removing "(behind Barbara Streisand and Madonna)", in this edit, also by Petergriffin9901. I have unplugged the Carey page from my watchlist, so I didn't see that change, but I don't agree with it. I think readers will immediately want to know who is ahead of a second- or third-place person. Binksternet (talk) 15:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There has been much talk about this ... if best-selling music artists is linked there is no need to mention other artist if there is no real musical association besides record sales. It would be more appropriate to simply have the link to the page listing all the unrelated artist and sales. Is there realy a need to mention someone she has never played with or even from here style or generation. The problem with this is it opens the door to editors  just listing trivia.. a great example is here were before it was fixed/cleaned up no less then 10 artist were mention in just 3 paragraphs. The article now Mariah Carey singles discography is more inlne with FA requirements. Moxy (talk) 16:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I do agree with you regarding Mariah Carey singles discography. If you notice, the lead is the same as what it says in Mariah Carey albums discography claiming her to be the "best-selling female artist of all time," which we all know is a CRAP!!! That was merely based on her fan website, obviously. Besides, why put that lead in her singles discography when the line doesn't even refer to her singles sales??? Not much has been said about her success worldwide. All you read is Billboard and nothing else. Is there anything we can do to sanitize this whole mess on Mariah Carey's articles? Diphosphate8 (talk) 00:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I do agree it needs lots of work..as for best selling "world wide artists" ...i believe only those with Chopard Diamond awards are officially recognized as best selling of all time... Mariah Carey has received this award and the title "best-selling female pop artist of the millennium" but its Celine Dion that has the honor of "best selling female artist of all time" but again there are many other ratings but this would be the best source as they do world wide distribution numbers regardless of affiliations - unlike Nielsen and others  that only track sales by its registered members (companies).  And i am sorry to say that Madonna has not seen this world wide recognition yet. 02:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a place to discuss how crap Maria Carey articles are. Please go to the suitable page. As per Rossrs and Bink, I believe that the Barbara Streisand quote should be added, to both the Madonna and the Mariah Carey articles. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * wow nice and rude !!This is a long talk about what should be included..in all the articles we are talking about...could you say y you think they should be included. because that is y were are talking about the other article as an example of what not to do.Moxy (talk) 15:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You know very well I was referring to Diphosphate8's addition. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

It's strange to see such reliance on a single source (6 years ago). Doing quick google searches, I seem to find more sources pointing to 200 (4 years later), and hardly any pointing to 250. In fact, the Madonna discography page right here on wikipedia lists only 205.3 million in worldwide sales. Is there something I'm missing?
 * You seem to be using only the Madonna albums discography page. The singles make a bit of a difference; a quick scan of the US/UK silver/gold/platinum certifications on Madonna singles discography looks like it would account for over 25 million, even if each of the records not certified in a country sold zero there, which seems doubtful. Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 04:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * After investigating further, more sources here and here report Guinness (discussed below as a very reliable record-keeping source) as defining Madonna's sales worldwide as 200 million. There are many other sources you can find by simply googling "madonna 200 million".  In contrast, "Madonna 250 million" refers more to a $250 million quote than album sales, which sometimes point to this very wikipedia article.  With the new Guinness book coming out for 2011 (and seeing as how each sentence is followed by the Guinness information), we should use Guinness's information here.  ~ [  Scott M. Howard  ] ~ [  Talk  ]:[  Contribs  ] ~  04:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please read again carefully. Guinness World Records 2010 lists Madonna as the top-selling female artist with 200 million ALBUMS as your given sources. It means she has sold 200 million in album sales only, not counting singles or videos. In 2006, the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (the most reliable source for sales worldwide) reported that Madonna has sold 200 million albums.. I think article from The Independent is fine. They said Madonna has sold 250 million RECORDS (including albums, videos, singles, DVDs, etc). I believe she has sold more than 250 million in "records" sales since this article was published in 2004. So, to say Madonna sold 200 million records is completely wrong. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

NOT PROTECTED?
Why is this article not semi-protected?????? It is a victim to constant vandalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cprice1000 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's on the Pending changes trial. I think anyone can edit it, but only certain people can review it so that anyone can see the changes. Pilif12p : Yo  01:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nonetheless, I have asked for it to be semi-protected. We'll see what the admins decide to do. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * They decided to protect it. Voila. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Hollywood Walk of Fame
Where's the info???? It should be mentioned somewhere that Madonna doesnot have a star on the famous Hollywood Walk of Fame, she refused it in 1990. She's one of very few mega stars who have no interest to be inducted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.0.38.71 (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Where's the source for that info? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Receipts? — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 05:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Material Girl fashion range
Can we add a bit about Madonna and Lourdes launching the Macy's fashion line? 76.117.121.148 (talk) 13:28, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

___ I "M Breathless should be listed on the main page. Though it's a soundtrack album, all of its tracks are by Madonna, unlike "Who's That GGirl" or comparable releases by, e.g., Whitney Houston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.153.159.221 (talk) 20:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

typographical error
✅ Perhaps an authorized editor would like to change "eposide" to "episode" at the end of the section just preceding the heading "Musical Style".


 * Done. Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Here are some more:

Check the source -- but sources can have typos also...
 * ✅ Five lines before the section "Discography": "oportunistic" should be "opportunistic".
 * ✅ Four lines before the section "Discography": "closed ones" should perhaps be "close ones"?
 * ✅ The quote for reference #259 doesn't make sense. "Madonna-[she] conceals" seems as if it should be "Madonna conceal" referring to the "gripes". Otherwise it does seem that this quote was improperly extracted in some way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.252.52.241 (talk) 12:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

voice
One of tthe things people tend to forget about her is her voice. Her lowest note is a G2 (live) her highest (Ray of Light - live 8) is a G6, which means she has 4 octaves, an impressive range, in Ray of Light, there's a 17 second long note, again, an impressive achievement (again Live DWT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmariorossi (talk • contribs) 12:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * What is your point? — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 12:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Becoze she can hit G2 and G6 doesn´t gave her a full 4 Octave vocal range,besides she can cover up all in between notes from G2-G6 which I really doubt! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.50.121.207 (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Way too long
Is it just me, or is 141 kb just way too much? I took about 2 minutes for my browser to load the page. Shouldn't splitting be considered?-- MA SHAUN IX 11:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Which connection are you using? Coz for me it takes just 10 secs to load. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 06:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It takes me 3 seconds. 122.49.186.229 (talk) 06:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem either. I find the article to be fine the way it is.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk2Me   04:52, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Album Sales
Im having trouble accepting this new claim. Firstly, the source says Madonna has sold 75 million albums in the US. This is 100% false, as she only has Shipments of 64 million in the US, let alone actual sales. Secondly, we have various recent sources claiming 200 million albums, or 250 million records, but nothing ever so radical as 275 albums. This would mean possible record sales of over 330 million. If we have one source that is well betond and exaggeratting many other sources, I think its safer to stick to the lower figures.-- Peter Griffin  •  Talk   05:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This time I have to agre with you and, as I stated before, Guiness updated their books to correct this error. I own a physical copy of the book. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 09:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What is then the "corrected" figures on Guinness, if it wasn't 275 million albums worldwide? The corrected figure is needed to validate that claim of "top-selling female recording artist" and not from another source to link with it. Can we state that in the lead, instead of that Independent magazine/newspaper claim of 250 million albums. We all are aware that magazine/newspapers do not certify album/single sales at all, aren't we? Thanks! Diphosphate8 (talk) 21:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Independent is right, Madonna has sold 250 million records as of 2003 (175 million albums and 75 million singles). However, this is very out of date, seven years ago. She has now sold more than 300 million records with albums "only "sales stand at 200 million. So, I think it would be better writing 200 million in albums sales rather than 250 million in records sales.


 * If this is troubling you, why not place "as of 2003"? Its the same to me, I just happen to think 250 records is more accurate then 200 million albums.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   00:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Did "Independent" mention who certified her with 250 million records? Why not indicate the sales, per Guinness World Records instead? How credible are magazines/publications which are not even tracking sales of albums/singles (versus IFPI, RIAA), such as this and "Daily Telegraph" that claims Mariah as the best-selling of all time??? They happened to feature articles on artists, without even a mention where they get their claims from? So if an article states "Rihanna is the best-selling female of all-time" in "People" magazine without a basis, would that pass in being added in Rihanna's lead? It is just so ridiculous that magazines such as Independent or Daily Telegraph are kept on inserted in the intro, compromising the integrity of Wikipedia. Ikabod08 (talk) 03:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, The Independent and The Daily Telegraph are not magazines, but reputed newspapers and their sources are trustworthy. They will of course verify waht they add in their articles before publishing it. Second of all, Madonna's album sales is 200 million (per 2010). The 200 million number was verified much before and she is the best selling female artist, according to sources. Third of all, Guiness corrected their book closer to The Independent article, claiming record sales of 260 million, 75 million of those is in US. And Peter, please don't give the crap about certifications, since Warner has lagged on certifications of Madonna's albums from a long time. Source? I have the physical copy. Ikabod, lets not venture into a fantasy world where People will claim that Rihanna is the best selling or something, your problem is with sources and discuss that. I am fine with using Guiness as the source. But I need a consensus for it. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand of you Legolas, you said above that Guinnes has corrected their album, telling that Madonna sold 200 million albums. NOW, you're saying Madonna sold 260 million records according to Guinness. Whis is the truth? Do you really have that revision of Guinnes book ???
 * I never said that Guiness is listing it as 200 million records, I said they corrected their claim that Madonna has sold 275 million records. They are listing it as 260, but I won't add it untill there is a consensus on Guiness as reference. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh Gosh, please read again section "Guinnes world records 2011" above !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.0.210.172 (talk) 05:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My point still stands that she is at 200 million album sales, 260 million record sales. What's your point? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Besides for your hard copy, do we have a sourced internet page Legolas? I have no problem using Guiness if they corrected their claims, 260 million records doesn't sound so badly exaggerated in comparison with 275 million albums. Im all for it. Ikabod, your failing to understand what Legolas is trying to say. Guiness claimed "275 million albums", now they corrected it to 260 million records (albums, singles and videos)", which is pretty accurately close to the claims made by The Independent (250 million records).-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   09:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Guiness doesnot usually digitize their books before 3 years from their publications, for eg the 2004 versions were digitized in 2007, so I'm afraid at present we won't have the online source, except for the wrong one. We can use the book now, later, once digitized, we can probably use google books. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 09:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I dont see a problem in using your hard copy with its ISBN, the claim seems pretty believable and is dead on close to The Independent. I trust your word on the book. I say go for it. I als think though, we should have The Independent source on hand, as it is very close to the claim.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   09:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

The Guiness figure is absolutely a reliable info, rather than the 250 million albums claim by "The Independent." Why rely on these newspaper/magazine when they are not even involved in tracking sales of albums in the US and worldwide? Unless it states in the article that "According to IFPI or RIAA, she has sold this and that, making her the best-selling female of all time." If we allow this ridicule, this is only giving other people out here a reason to INSERT whatever they want to put in their idol's article such as "best-selling female of all-time" sourced from magazines/newspapers like Daily Telegraph, for instance. Guiness, RIAA, IFPI are definitely far credible sources to claim such figures. It just makes the readers think what this 'Independent' is all about. I, myself, didn't even know that such newspaper exists. Or why can't we just revert it to what the Madonna lead was before, WITHOUT this "According to Independent" line? Ikabod08 (talk) 02:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said before, I am fine with the Guiness source of 260 million records—seems logical and reliable. However, a consensus needs to be formed regarding the usage of Guiness or The Independent. If Guiness is used, then such lines like "According to so-and-so, X is teh greatest selling" needs to go—not only from this article, but from others as well. We need a consistency throughout the female singer articles. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Why do I get the feeling Ikabod, that this issue you have is really regarding the Mariah Carey page? You keep mentioning the "The Daily Telegraph" for that reason and keep trying and sabatoge the page. The rules have been discussed on the talk page regarding the mention of "Best-selling female artist of all time". Same goes for here, if you have an independent source, you can place it and quote it. Also those are reliable sources, not some people magazine in Publix.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   06:39, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Why do I have the feeling Petergriffin that whenever Madonna's sales is increased and now that Guinness declared Madonna the top-selling female artist, you keep on adding up Mariah's sales and claims of being the best-selling of all time, sourced from some silly publications? I don't want to think that you just want to get even and don't want Mariah to be left behind but it's what everybody else feels, Peter. Is this the reason why you want to add this "Independent" claim of 250 million records for Madonna, so you can also include "Daily Telegraph"'s unsourced claim of Mariah being the best-selling female? Hmmm... Seems so logical to me. Ikabod08 (talk) 01:15, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Both of you calm down. I want to have a consensus on the Guiness source. And I believe I already stated that we need a consistency across all the other singer articles regarding this best selling thing. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:10, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Your such a fool. Im not using the "The Daily Telegraph" to state Mariah's sales, its to claim her title. If you took some time to read and not be such an ignoramus, you wouldn't make such childish comparsions like "People" and "The Independent" or "The Daily Telegraph". Your the silly one here trying to bring Madonna's sales up while trying to demote Mariah's. Im the one who found the source genius, bringing her sales up 50 million on her page, while Mariah's tays he same. Do some research before putting yourself out there, it might save you embarrassment of looking like a total imbecile.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   05:52, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Calm down, Petergriffin. You are becoming rude now to call people names. Be civilized even if no one agrees with you. Who told you that removing the false claim of "best-selling female" would demote Mariah Carey? No it's not! We're just trying to improve the lead, plain and simple. Yet here you are acting like a bully kid who keeps on inserting such a claim without a final consensus yet? Why are you so obsessed with that claim of "best-selling of all-time" for Mariah, really??? And we're quite postive you've got issues for quite a long time now, regarding the Mariah Carey article. Go to Discussion page and you'll see what I mean. Ikabod08 (talk) 23:56, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

New claim
I have changed the 250 records claim with a recent article of The Independent from 3 January 2010, claiming 300 million records. I think this figure is seemed more acceptable rather than the Guinness claim of 275 million albums which is disputed here. As I said before, Madonna has sold 250 million records within her 20 years career (1983-2003), please read again the previous source carefully, "In the past 20 years, Madonna has sold more than 250 million records. From the pure pop of her debut Madonna......" (The Independent, 24 May 2004). I guess she has sold many more records since that date, so I feel the claim of 200 million 'albums' or 300 million 'records' (albums, singles, videos, etc) is more logic than the claim of an article from seven years ago. Please don't make edit war, and discuss here if you feel disagreement with my point, thank you Bluesatellite (talk) 03:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Just let me do a calculation: If, per the previous source Madonna sold 250 milion in first 20 years, that means from 2004 to 2010, she must have sold the rest 50. Now, if I am correct, her album sales = AL (4) + COADF (12) + HC (3.8) + Celebration (2) = 21.8. Singles wise: HU (8) + Srry (4) + GT (1) + Jump (1) + 4M (6) + GI2M (1) + MA (500K) + CL (500K) = 22. So total it is 43.8 million. Adding DVDs and live albums (IAGTTYAS + TCT + S&S) it can be 6 million. Ok this time it seems that The Independnet is close to its claim. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, it has been discussed since long ago in various fansites and forums such UKMix.org that Madonna sold estimated 300 million records (200 million albums, and 100 million singles). However, most reputable sources just claimed "200 million albums" (including IFPI. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I think we need a more "Industry related" source to make such changes. I think the 300 million number is very exaggerated and not accurate. Also, didn't yoou say Legolas that "Guiness" corrected themselves and wrote 250-260 mmillion records? I think that is more reliable. I say stick with 250-260-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   04:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't understand you, Petegriffin. Please don't get me mad! Above, you strongly support to use The Independent's "250 million" (from an article of 2004) to avoid Guinness' 275 million albums. NOW, I give you the same newspaper, claiming higher and you don't agree with it. Please don't do a fan war here, thank you Bluesatellite (talk) 04:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They did indeed. Now I am totally confused. :( --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is the Guiness glitch though, lemme check when they did their research in the book. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't care if you get "mad", I disagree. Don't try and make up "fancruft" and other BS excuses because i don't agree with you. I told Legolas '''Well I dont see a problem in using your hard copy with its ISBN, the claim seems pretty believable and is dead on close to The Independent. I trust your word on the book. I say go for it. I als think though, we should have The Independent source on hand, as it is very close to the claim.'''. As you see I trust the "Guiness" source more, and only agreed to use the "The Independent" source because it was readily readable and very close to the "Guiness" claim.-- Peter Griffin  •  Talk   04:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Time out guys. Please, get along for sometime, lemme check what shit ddi Guiness pulled us into. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 04:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well Legolas, Im trying to do things here amicably. BlueSatellite is reffering to accusations and fancruft claims, instead of trying to fix the problem.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   05:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Please show me the scan of that Guinness Book, I just have the scanning file that claiming "275 million albums", do you agree to mention this number, Peter? Bluesatellite (talk) 05:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I am done looking. Guiness is a bad bad book. The 2007 version and the 2010 versions both claims the same sales for Madge. How is that possible? My book's reasearch reference points to a date in 2004, this is leading me to believe, did Guiness verify in a similar way like The Independent? If so, then we are in trouble of a circular reference here. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 05:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I personally disagree to use Guinness in this case. Madonna absolutely has not sold 75 million albums in US alone. According to RIAA, she sold 64 million albums, and a total of 84 million records (including all singles and DVD titles). Maybe Guinness is a reputable organization and one of the most famous book all over the world, but sometimes they can also be wrong. Just like they claimed 104 million album sales of Thriller, which is totally wrong. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Just trying to understand something here Legolas. You told me "Guiness" listed "75 million in the US and 200 worldwide." Then you told me they corrected themselves and listed 250 million records. Well which one is it? or are they both BS claims? Secondly, both you and BlueSatellite expressed how you don't believe "The Independent" to be a reliable music source. Didn't yoou write Legolas, on the "Merry Christmas" page, that since it wasn't industry related it coulnd't be used? Well I happen to say to follow Guiness claims of 250 million, a claim you said your book had, and keep it like that.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   07:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please show me, which is my statement that refused to use The Independent?? I just said that the previous article of The Independent is too old (only covers 20 years career). I also never asked to use that Guinnes' fake number. Bluesatellite (talk) 07:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Peter, you are highly mistaken from both of me and Blue's POV. I never said Guiness corrected themselves to 250, rather 260million. Which was fine by me. however, in light of the recent event, I am checking Guiness' old books, they all have the same claim. How is it possible? Does Guiness want to claim that from 2007 to 2010, Madonna has not sold anything? That's highly unlikely. Secondly, I am not against using either Guiness or The Independnet, as long as we have a consensus here as to chose which one. And please stop calling other's verifications as BS and such. All of us are trying to help in a co-operative manner, so I suggest you vent your frustration somewhere else. And I won't discuss with you if you do not cooperative in a positive manner. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 08:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Blue, Guiness did correct that false claim of 275 million albums with 260 million records. I know Guiness is a reputable source, but the glitch is thats is what they are claiming in teh 2007 version also (I do not own 2008, 09, but I believe it will be the same). Previously I felt that Guiness was a more reputable source than The Independent, but researching now, it seemms that they point to sources from 2004. This makes me suspicious that are both The Independent and Guiness basing their sources from the same claim? If so, which one it is? And what is the basis of that source? We need to discuss now, which can we use then? --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 08:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused now Legolas, about Guinness. Whatever! My point here: There's nothin wrong to replace The Independent 2004 article claiming 250 million records with a new, update, recent 2010 article of the same newspaper claiming 300 million records. Bluesatellite (talk) 09:10, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Me too. I am also very confused about Guiness. But I am fine with The Independent or Guiness, being used in teh article—I just want a consensus of using which one. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 09:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I am here to help out and express my opinion in an amicable form, so please don't take any offense Legolas, I would like to deal with it without having wars. I now don't know what to say. I trusted the "Guiness" source and what you claimed, but now I don't know. I don't believe 300 to be accurate, thats for starters, the number seems extremely exaggerated, heck even 250 was pushing it. So as of now Im not sure, I say we look for some reliable sources and weigh them out. Do you concur Legolas?-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   12:43, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am extremely supportive of the 250 and 260 mm claim of The Independent and Guiness, but since both of them refere to a time period of 1983-2003, an updated claim is required. I believe, establishing the reliability of The Independent or whatever source it is, is the necessity first. I am fine with any source as long as we have consensus. My personal calculation makes me believe that the 2010 The Independent source is not overtly exaggerating. Madonna can sell another 50 mill from 2004 to 2009. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 12:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't believe the 250m claim to be as of 2003, I think that would possibly be now. Anyway it really doesn't mattter about our calculations. I say we collect some reliable sources and see what we can find, and look at the dates, so we see if it agrees or not. Ill start looking soon.-- Peter Griffin  •  Talk   13:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You might consider something like "Reliable estimates of her sales range from 250-300 million", with references for each figure. There's no need to pretend that there is an exact correct figure available if there isn't one.&mdash;Kww(talk) 14:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Madonna has sold 200 million, if we calculate her "albums" only (you can try to calculate it yourself at Madonna albums discography which is a Featured List). I guees 100 million figure is not so inflated to claim 75 singles (most of them are top ten, not only in US), 15 video albums, and 4 DVD singles (incuding best-seller such "Justify My Love". I don't think 300 million records is so exaggerated, comparing to Elvis Presley's 1 bilion claim or Michael Jackson's highly inflated 750 million records. Bluesatellite (talk) 23:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * And for Peter, do you still remember YOU came here first to change Madonna's 200 million "album" with a source from that 2004 article of The Independent which is according to you "reliable". Now, I replace it with a recent article from 2010, from the same media as you brought before, The Independent, now claiming higher than the sales number of seven years ago. So, what's the problem??? I can't understand you. Bluesatellite (talk) 23:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, simply because if this "Independent" article is added here in the Madonna lead, then it might give Peter a reason to add the "Daily Telegraph"'s unsourced claim of 'best-selling female artist of all time' for Mariah Carey in the lead. Very sneaky, indeed! Diphosphate8 (talk) 04:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I tried to explain to you Blue, when I changed it I wrote Well I dont see a problem in using your hard copy with its ISBN, the claim seems pretty believable and is dead on close to The Independent. I trust your word on the book. I say go for it. I als think though, we should have The Independent source on hand, as it is very close to the claim. I only believed it because Legolas said "Guiness" agreed. And I completely agree, Michael jackson hasn't sold anywheree even close to 750 million records and Elvis is farther away to 1 billion than I am, so its not that. And Diphosphate, wasn't that 1 day block enough? or will a permanent one do you more help. Stop trying and making this into a war and arguement. I just don' think the Independdent is enough on its own (without Guiness) to make such a claim, if you have a few more relaible sources, I would gladly agree. I will look for some sources, maybe I can find a few.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   01:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, Peter, I don't care. What's making you aggravated, dear? LOL! Did my statement hurt you? Does it go to say that "reality bites?" I was just answering Blue Satellite as he couldn't figure out why you were against this new figure of 300 million records on the "Independent" which you started it all. So stop fussing around. Diphosphate8 (talk) 02:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm, you will care once we wont have to hear your nonsense anymore on Wikipedia, after your blocked. And no, your nonsense doesn't bother me, te fact that Im a thousand times better editor than you makes it all worthwhile. Now please lets keep this discussion strictly to the topic.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   04:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, cool it down, guys. Binksternet (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess diphosphate got a point. And Peter, who told you you're a better editor than anybody in this page? Do you have sources to back that up like your claim of 'best selling female of all time' for Mariah? ((guffaw)) Ikabod08 (talk) 03:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello. Actually, if you paid attention Ikabod, yes I do, many as a mmatter of fact. Go look there are like 5 or 6.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk   04:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

OK. I took the time to re-read everything. I now know about the correction Guiness World Records has made. Israell (talk) 20:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Singer/songwriter
I suggest the term "recording artist" is replaced by "singer/songwriter", the way it was before. Madonna wrote the vast majority of her lyrics. It's a fact, and the very start of the article shall reflect that. Just proceed a search on ASCAP and you'll see everything she co-wrote. It's not a matter of "glamourizing" her. It's just stating a fact.

"Singer-songwriter" is only 5 syllables long, like "recording artist" and automatically informs readers of Madonna's talent as a vocalist and an author. Whether or not she's the biggest talent is not the point. This article is about Madonna, not other artists. "Recording artist" diminishes Madonna's talent a lot and makes readers think she's just some autotuned/computerized robot that can't sing a note nor write a word and it's not factual nor accurate. It takes talent to sing live for 3 months or more in a row on tour (8 tours so far) and write hundreds of songs including numerous hits. Israell (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Whatever points you are making, its just the opposite. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 11:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

If anyone else wants to comment, feel free to do so... All I can say is "singer-songwriter" is perfectly appropriate. Why would "recording artist" be more appropriate? Israell (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Take Britney Spears, for instance. I like her alright! Not bashing! Just saying... She did not co-write much on her albums. Her 2 greatest hits only have 2 songs co-written by her (Me Against The Music, Everytime). Madonna co-wrote most her 2 first albums and basically everything as of the 3rd studio album.

Britney Spears barely sings anything live on tour. A backing track overshadows everything. Madonna's tours are always live. She often forgot lyrics on her Sticky & Sweet Tour and no vocals from backing tracks were heard during those omissions.

Public perception alone should not determine what's in the lead of the article. Having the highest of vocal ranges should not be a requirement to be labelled as a "singer".

Many singers-songwriters co-write their songs; they write them with others. Writing everything all alone all the time should not be a requirement to be billed a "songwriter". Israell (talk) 23:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a stretch to say Madonna must write aaaaaaalll of her music to be called a singer-songwriter. She basically writes all her lyrics, which is great songwriting talent. Beyoncé's article's lead says she's a singer-songwriter and we know she doesn't write any more than Madonna does. Beyoncé co-writes most her songs, just like Madonna, and probably focuses on lyrics, just like Madonna again. There are many claims Beyoncé doesn't write much and receives undue credit but those claims are unfounded.

Maybe Madonna's lead should include the term "lyricist", right after "recording artist", which would put the emphasis on the fact she basically writes all her lyrics, but I vote for "singer-songwriter", which displays both vocal and songwriting talent...Israell (talk) 20:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

that glee album
Isn't that paragraph about Glee a bit too big? Isn't it WP:UNDUE? I mean, who cares how much a non-Madonna album sold? Just say the album exists, and if anyone wants further details, they can go to its own page.
 * Its not only about the album, but is about the tribute episode on Madonna. That is extremely important and qualifies a decent size, non-undue section. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Hard Candy Fitness
Someone should add a sentence or two about Madonna opening numerous gyms worldwide called Hard Candy Fitness with Guy Oseary and New Evolution Ventures. There's an article about this on Madonna's official website.

Link to article: http://www.madonna.com/news/title/madonna-to-open-hard-candy-fitness-centers-around-the-world —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.217.203 (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It has been added to the article in the 2010 section of the biography. More details should be added as information crops up with the opening of the gyms. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 09:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

1986 - 1991
It says that "Madonna ended the decade with three number one albums and seven number one singles, surpassed only by Michael Jackson."

This is FALSE...she was not surpassed by Michael Jackson...they have the same number of number one singles...seven...and Michael Jackson only had two number one albums: Thriller and Bad...

so she was not surpassed by Michael Jackson.

And I edited the page to say that "she ended the decade as MTV's and Billboard Magazine's 'Artist of the Decade.'" This is TRUE!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bamart25 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, Madonna has more number-one albums, but MJ has nine number-one singles in 1980s. I agree with you that a number of publications called her "Artist of the Decade". I would change that sentence into By the end of 1980s, Madonna was named as the "Artist of the Decade" by media such as MTV, Billboard and Musician magazine. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Animal (album)
Does anybody know what the so-called Animal album is about? Is it a forth-coming release, or an inofficial album for fans? Is it a Hard Candy outtake compilation? (Google Madonna + Animal)--Kanzlei Franz Kafka (talk) 20:27, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no confirmation regarding it and "Animal" is just an unreleased track from the Hard Candy sessions. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * On several webpages or blogs you will find a compilation of about 14-15 songs. Listening to some of them it seems to me that these partly are outtakes, partly demo- or pre-versions from Hard Candy and Confessions on a Dancefloor songs (f.e. Sorry).--Kanzlei Franz Kafka (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The 25 Most Powerful Women of the Past Century
I posit that the inclusion of Madonna in the list of "25 Most Powerful Women of the Past Century" deserves a place in the lead. She's just only one of the 2 female singers who have been included in the list (the other being Aretha Franklin). Some of the other high-profile figures who made it in the list were Oprah Winfrey, Mother Teresa, Estee Lauder, Margaret Thatcher, Martha Stewart, Indira Ghandi. Here's the link: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2029774,00.html. Thoughts??? Diphosphate8 (talk) 02:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we can seeing the reputed source. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure! TIME is always reputable. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Madonna's album sales
Madonna has sold 200 million, not 300 million records.Guiness World RecordsLAUGH90 (talk) 21:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, she has sold more than 200 million ALBUMS (also per IFPI number), not counting singles, VHS, DVD, etc. Please do NOT open this discussion again. We have reached consensus both on this page and on List of best-selling music artists Bluesatellite (talk) 23:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where have you reached consensus, and on what grounds, May I ask?LAUGH90 (talk) 04:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Search archives. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 04:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I have seen the source, and I don't find it nearly as reliable as the source I listed (Guiness World Records over a UK newsletter)LAUGH90 (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There was already a consensus over this. Sorry, but this issue has been resolved. Please donot go on repeating the same things. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 16:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Butting in here for a sec. I honestly still don't find Guinness a reliable source. Its been proven to be wrong. According to the RIAA, Madonna has shipped 64 million albums in the US, so its impossible for her to have sold 75. Now, again, the article is not clear if it means 75 + 125 = 200 or 75 + 200 = 275, which is forsure not correct. It doesn't matter who you ask, no female artist has sold a solid 200 million albums alone. As for records, while I know it is sourced, and I agreed to its usage, Madonna has not sold 300 million records. Her certifications add up to roughly half of her claimed sales. I would say a fair figure to be 225 million records. But as we had this discussion a while ago, and I don't find Guinness reliable, I say we leave it this way, unless you find various reliable sources claiming around 200.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   18:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I can find several other sources that state the she has only sold 200 million records worldwide, not 300. I'm starting to think the biggest/inflated numbers possible for Madonna (in terms of record sales) are being used for wiki, instead of the truth.LAUGH90 (talk) 20:54, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Album IS NOT the same as record, do not insist please. Tbh®tch Talk © Happy Holidays 21:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay this is my last comment to all of you (especially LAUGH90, who likes to put the lower sales for Madonna). Please do NOT continue this "tiring" discussion anymore: Thank you. Bluesatellite (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) In 2006, International Federation of the Phonographic Industry stated in their official press release that Madonna has sold over 200 million ALBUMS . IFPI is the one and only official worldwide music industry organization for tracking sales to date, and it is definitely far more reputable than shows like World Music Awards LOL. So, Nathan, please stop thinking that Madonna has not reached 200 million number for her albums only.
 * 2) This reliable news service stating that Madonna sold 250 million records in 20 years of her career. Now Madonna is nearly to enter her fourth-decade career. I'm really sure she can add another 50 million to her records number within 10 years, while Lady Gaga only needs two years to hit that number.
 * 3) 300 million RECORDS claim from the recent 2010 article (now being used) is seemed suitable for Madonna. Even User:Harout72--who is really against sales inflation--accept this claim for Madonna.
 * 4) Madonna has sold more than 70 physical singles thouhout her career. She hold records for the most number-one singles among female artist in the biggest international music charts like UK, Australia, Canada, and Eurochart. In the USA, she is just behind Mariah Carey, but Madonna has more top-ten hit than anyone else and she sold more singles. Madonna has surpassed The Beatles and trailed behind only Elvis Presleyfor the most gold/platinum singles according to RIAA. Not to mention a number of her video releases, including the best-selling video "Justify My Love".
 * 5) Finally, "records" is not same with "albums", they include singles and videos as well. Yes, Madonna has sold over 200 million album, but she has also sales from her hit singles and home videos.
 * LAUGH90, you either stop this trolling around, or you might face the same block again. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 04:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not trolling, I am just trying to make things more accurate. Independent.co.uk doesn't seem very reliable to me and I would believe even 250 million records sold worldwide over 300 million.LAUGH90 (talk) 05:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you are, The Independent is an extremely reliable source and will be kept, whether you like it or not. This discussion is over, consensus was reached long ago, and as editors have suggested, it still persists. Do not pursue the same things. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 06:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Lol Blue. The IFPI can claim whatever they want, they still cannot track worldwide sales (they track certifications in Europe). Now, her total certifications (physical, digital, videos, singles, etc.) equal around 155 Million. That is a far cry from 300. Now, as I said I'm not trying to get it changed, I'm just expressing to you that she has not sold that number at all. If you add up her worldwide album certifications, I doubt they would even equal 100 million. Also, while you are right that Madonna has achieved substantial success in Europe, her sales in Asia have been low. Anyway, I say we stop discussing this matter, as quite frankly, its getting old and it leads to fights. Laugh90, you'll have to live with that number, end of story.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   06:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Even you could have done the same thing by not placing the former comments Nathan. You are much experienced now not to get drawn into these petty fights. I expect more from you actually since I have seen you improving a lot. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 06:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Legolas, there is a big line in between instigating and stating an opinion. You want to know the truth? I don't get involved in these Madonna issues simply because I'm friends with you guys, and I don't want to cause friction. But the truth is I don't believe those sales to be true. I would expect you to be able to respect that, because I am in no way supporting Laugh90's constant discussions about demoting her sales, in fact I am supporting to leave as is. I am simply stating the truth, IFPI in no way tracks worldwide sales, and her certifications don't equal half the sales. Anyway, I think this discussion is over, as there is consensus to leave it.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   06:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I know that very well and hence one has to stop at one point don't they? Otherwise as we have seen these discussions ultimately become a WWF war-zone. Lol, let's all be gracious to each other and Come all ye faithful. :) — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 06:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol, I love how you finished that last one ;)-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   06:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL, Nathan I suggest you to improve your knowledge about recording industry. The International Federation of the Phonographic Industry is the official WORLDWIDE recording industry organization, they have regional offices all over the world. They are NOT only tracking sales in Europe. IFPI have 1,400 members in 66 countries and affiliated industry associations in 45 countries. SNEP, RIAJ, RIAA, BPI, and the others are the part of IFPI organization. For the detail, you can access IFPI website or read the Wiki article about IFPI. So, please do not say that laughable statement anymore. And then, about Asia, how can you say Madonna has low sales there??? Out of 48 countries in Asia, only Japan that has certification database, and even RIAJ database only covers sales from 2003 and Million-certified sales from 1989. FYI, Madonna was the best-selling international artist in Japan in the 1980s. To date, she has won sixteen awards from RIAJ's Japan Gold Disc Awards (these awards are based on sales). True Blue, Like a Prayer, I'm Breathless, Erotica and Hard Candy were the best-selling foreign album of the year in Japan, even though I don't know the exact sales. Is there still any doubt that Madonna has an outstanding worldwide success, from the North to South America, from Europe to Asia, or Australia??? Okay, end of stroy! Bluesatellite (talk) 08:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we stop this diva wars please? The troll has stopped posting, why can't you guys? — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 09:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Nathan I think you just got some of Lego's inner rude boy. But seriously, you both need to settle down about her sales (especially Laugh.) If it's been reached it's 300 million records (this includes albums and singles), then it's 300 million records. Also, not everything is certified. --<span style="font-family:'tahoma bold',serif;border:1px solid Black;"> Cprice1000 talk2me  14:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I grew up in the Philippines and Mariah is nowhere near the success of Madonna there and the rest of Asia-Pacific (including Australia). I suggest you do your research before you make a statement because it only makes you look ignoramus. I agree with Blue satellite, IFPI is far more reliable in certifications rather than some absurd award giving body like World Music awards which claims such and such when in fact it obviously doesn't certify record sales at all. lol! Who believes World Music Awards anyway? Diphosphate8 (talk) 03:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all, I'm not ignorant you little prick. Yes her sales in Asia are low, you show me her "high sales" there. And again you go bringing Mariah into everything. You have no idea what your saying. Mariah is huge and always has been in the Philippines, Madonna is no one. Take Regine Velasquez, who's songs is she always singing? I'll give you a hint, it aint "Like A Virgin". She sings practically every Carey song, and badly at that. Carey has sold over 35 million records in Japan alone, not to mention the other smaller territories. And NO, IFPI does NOT track sales, they track certifications, which we already have, and they tell us she hasn't sold nearly 300. You piss me off, and if you try instigating again 'll report you. You come here challenging and looking for a fight, I actually get along with everyone here. Stop being jealous of Mariah and learn to get over you issues. And why aren't the WMA anything? oh wait, maybe bc Madonna never one any!!-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   03:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have stuck out both your conversations. Either you guys learn not to attack each other based on diva wars, or you leave commenting here. These comments are crossing the limits of WP:CIVILITY. Next time warnings will be handed. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 03:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In case you didn't notice, someone attacked here first and came here looking for a problem. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   03:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone came here and attacked "you"/"your artist" that gives you no reason to respond in the same way. You are also not setting an example, rather fuelling the situation. Why didn't you raise an ANI or warn the user or notify any available admin or user? Sorry, but both parties are involved in the same responses and allegations when I specifically told you guys to refrain from such malpractices. I am again suggesting, please cease from adding any comment to the section for now. Diphosphate if you are reading this, be warned. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 03:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Can I please see a source that says her sales are at 300 million? Guiness World Records says she is at 200 million records sold. Can't that be recognized?LAUGH90 (talk) 02:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see a source as well. @ Legolas; you kept saying that a consensus had been reached, but if LAUGH90 doubts the validity, then doesn't that mean there isn't a consensus? No need to be an ass about it and call LAUGH90 a troll (Repeatedly, I might add). --84.26.78.183 (talk) 20:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Years active
She was signed to the label and released her first single in 82', so why are her years active from 79'?-- CallMe Nathan  •  Talk2Me   06:28, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Because she started her career in 1979. That year, she made her first film A Certain Sacrifice, and also toured with Patrick Hernandez as a backup singer. Bluesatellite (talk) 07:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 188.81.46.86, 16 March 2011
Tributes Oscar Casares have painted "Virtues of the soul as eclipsed by the diva Madonna" in 2008/2009, which is a very emblematic and famous painting of the actress.

188.81.46.86 (talk) 16:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. We need some sort of reliable source establishing that this picture is famous/important. Without that, I don't think we can include that on this list. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

picture of her high school?
Hi, I just stopped by for some fact-checking—about Madonna's high school, as it happens—and was surprised to find a picture of said school. So I'm interested in that aspect of her biography, and utterly unable to imagine any illustrative, let alone encyclopedic, value to the photo. Am I missing something? Thanks, Michael (talk) 06:34, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Album sales

 * Just stating that Madonna has sold 200 million via Guiness World Records and Madonna's official site, not 300 million.LAUGH90 (talk) 23:06, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Too Much Inflation
Well somehow those newspaper or articles on the reference "SUPPOSE You SAY" RELIABLE? BUT TOO me their to over inflated? And do you really expect that this sites are that credible??????? Probably their just using "Wikipedia" as their source (way back then), and the original root of it will be the fan sites. How can Like a Virgin sold 21 million copies worldwide? If 10m in US, 1m in UK, 1m Canada, 1m in Germany, and the rest of it are lower in sales... If it was 16 million copies worldwide I think its ok., but 21 too much inflation! And to the fact that her official website said trueblue is her biggest with 19m I guess LIKE a Virgin sales would be lower, her official website didnt said any regarding with the WW sales. Plus her true BLue album her OFFICIAL WEBSITE said 19 MILLION copies sold worldwide and to date her best selling "STUDIO ALBUM" .. NOT! 24 million copies, again too much INFLATION!!!!!!!! Here is the link for TRUE BLUE http://madonna.com/discography/index/album/albumId/3/ AGain here is another one, if you think her best selling album sold as much as 30 Million WW think again. Immaculate Collection just sold 22 MILLION! WW, HER OFFICIAL WEBSITE SAID 10 MILLION IN US & 12 MILLION OUTSIDE US SO 22MILLION ww. aGAIN! tOO MUCH iNFLATION! HERES THE LINK: http://madonna.com/discography/index/album/albumId/24/

AGAIN RAY OF LIGHT? 20 million think again! Her OFFICIAL website said 4m in US and another 10m outside Us, so to break it down 14 million copies WW.. heres the link : http://madonna.com/discography/index/album/albumId/7/

HA! I'm not done yet! Music sold over 15m WW? HER OFFICIAL WEBSITE SAID 2M IN US AND 8M OUTSIDE US, IF you can add its 10 million not 15 million! heres the link : http://madonna.com/discography/index/album/albumId/8/ Ok I'll give you props you have one correct Like A Prayer with 13m good job! http://madonna.com/discography/index/album/albumId/4/

To break it down: LiKe A Virgin - Lower than 19m ( her official website said true blue is her biggest studio album in sales ww)- NOT 21 MILLION COPIES SOLD WW - Difference 3-4m True Blue - 19 million - NOT 24m WW! Difference 5m Like a Prayer - Ok you got one right ha! Immaculate Collection - 22m NOT 30! - difference 8m (shocks too much inflation!) Ray of Light - 14m NOT 20! - difference 6m! (too much inflation! :p) Music - 10 m NOT 15- difference (5m)! CONCLUSION: HER OFFICIAL WEBSITE WILL NOT I REPEAT WILL NOT LOWER THE SALES OF THEIR ARTIST IN FACT THEY WILL INFLATE THE SALES JUDGING BY THE SALES STATED ON HER OFFICIAL WEBSITE I BET THEY ESTIMATED IT WORLDWIDE BUT WITH A TOUCH OF INFLATION, BASICALLY THE TRUE SALES OF THOSE ALBUM WILL OR MIGHT BE LOWERED, SHOCKING TRUTH BUT ITS TRUE. PROBABLY THE TRUE SALES OF TRUE BLUE MIGHT NOT BE 19 MILLION BUT 17 OR 16 MILLION LETS JUST SAY :), OR HER ALBUM IMMACULATE COLLECTION MIGHT NOT EVEN PASS THE 20 MILLION MARK... HAHA! I'M NOT DONE YET I ONLY TARGETED HER BIGGEST SELLING ALBUM LETS SEE HER OTHER ONES NEXT TIME. AND TO BREAK IT DOWN THE TOTAL INFLATION YOU CREATED ARE MOST LIKELY 30 MILLION LETS JUST ESTIMATE :) WORLDWIDE SALES ARE JUST ESTIMATION :) BUT INDEED I TRULY AND SINCERELY MOST DEFINITELY AGREE WITH YOU ALL THAT SHE IS THE BIGGEST AND HIGHEST SELLING FEMALE ARTIST OF ALL TIME WITHOUT A DOUBT. (CORRECT MY GRAMMAR PLEASE :)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.97.216.131 (talk) 16:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Personal Life?
How in the world does Madonna not have a section designated to her personal life? Most celebrities have them and few have as much content as hers would have Schnapps17 (talk) 20:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Sandraaa743, 2 April 2011
Please change the main picture (I Am Because We Are) to one more recent. Like this one which I uploaded but could not figure out how to put it.

Resized madonna

Sandraaa743 (talk) 06:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice picture. I am OK to use this in the article. --BwB (talk) 08:05, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sandraaa, plese give a title for this picture and we can change the caption on the main page. Thanks. --BwB (talk) 08:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Actually, let's stick with David Shankbone's file, which has a proper license, rather than an AP Photo, which is most likely a copyright violation. —LX (talk, contribs) 08:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * How do we know if this pic is a copyright violation or not? --BwB (talk) 08:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I've replied at User talk:LX. I don't care if we discuss it here or there, but let's keep the discussion in one place. —LX (talk, contribs) 09:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Catholicism
Why does the article entirely omit any reference to the religion of her childhood/her mother and father? It doesn't even talk about where she was raised, but dedicates quite a bit of space to other (pseudo)religious pursuits undertaken by Madonna. Suspicious - whoever is taking care of the article isn't doing a very good job at all. 88.203.122.48 (talk) 09:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to add material as long as it not violate WP:POV or WP:OR and has reliable sources (WP:RS). --BwB (talk) 10:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please read carefully before such frivolous comments. Thered is a whole section on her early life and religion has come in the influences part. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 15:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Most Singles on the German Singles Chart
In April 2011, the German TV show "Die Ultimative Chartshow" announced that Madonna is having the most singles of all artists being positioned on the German Singles Chart, along with Peter Alexander. Both of them had 59 singles on that chart in their total career source--79.216.187.245 (talk) 22:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus on introduction
The intro keeps getting changed a lot recently. Can we please reach a consensus on this please (I actually remember this happening ages ago on the same matter).

The following is what was agreed: This is what is keeps getting changed to:
 * (1) Madonna (born Madonna Louise Ciccone on August 16, 1958) is an American recording artist, actress and entrepreneur.
 * (2) Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone (born on August 16, 1958), better known by her stage name as simply Madonna (Italian pronunciation: [tʃik̚ˈkoːne]), is an American recording artist, actress and entrepreneur. - I think this is inaccurate, Madonna is not her "stage name" and she was not born MLVC but simply Madonna Louise Ciccone.

I am going to change it back to what was earlier agreed and can we please reach a consensus (or if anyone can find the earlier one) before we change it.
 * Please put KEEP if you want it to remain as (1) or CHANGE if you would prefer (2). Thanks  J W A D  Communicate|Nicely 10:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Your Views

 * Ob viously its option 1. Anyone changing it to option 2 should be plain reverted and trout slapped. Madonna legally changed her name to Madonna from MLVC. Taraborrelli and Morton supports this. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 15:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Option 1. --BwB (talk) 15:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, definitely Option 2. It is the preferred style on Wikipedia for artists! According WP:MOSBIO, the style of option 1 reads like the subjects have legally changed it's names at some point after birth, see the example Bill Clinton (also used as example in WP:MOSBIO). In contrast option 2 is used, very, very commonly, for artists, who uses a stage name for their profession, but still have a legal name as well. Their stage name can be totally different or being based on their legal name, for example they use only (one of) their given names. See Prince (musician), Rihanna, Brian Jones, etcetera. Option 2 is totally not strange and according WP:MOSBIO guidelines and normal for this kind of cases. And regarding her confirmation name: I do not know enough about the legality of religious names and how official those Sacraments / Catholic rites are for the state. But I do not see any reason why not to include it as well, especially since other serious biographies include it as well. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 16:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you missed the simple notation that her legal name is now Madonna. So option 1 is most suitable. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 15:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Just Madonna? That's rather peculiar, especially in a society where you need to have a surname and most people have several first names as well. Can you give me a source of that? Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats immaterial talk of why she changed it. As I say above, J. Randy Taraborrelli, Andrew Morton, Christopher Cicconne all confirm this in the respective bios. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 09:22, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So you claim is that others said that she said that she legally changed her name from MLVC to just Madonna? That’s not really strong proof, so I don't believe you on just your claims. Again, show us with written sources where this is proven. Because it is quite odd and therefore unlikely that she has only one single legal name. In most US states you must have a surname as well. Contrary to you I can provide a U.S. Court document which shows the whole legal name of Madonna. In 2010, Madonna was suit over the right of the name "Madonna", at least for the sale of clothing. According to the official documents of the U.S. District Court, in Los Angeles, her name is: MADONNA LOUISE VERONICA CICCONE (thereafter named "Madonna"). See here the concerning legal document, page 1: . So convince me with the contrary proof this week, or otherwise I will change the intro back per current Wikipedia guidelines (WP:MOSBIO). Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 11:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry consensus is against your views here at present and I forbid you not to change it. As Book said below, Madonna is her legal name name now, hence option 1 it is. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 14:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Till now you only claiming, claiming things, but without links and you don't show the facts, which is not encyclopedia worthy. Show me written facts that prove your claims. Instead, I have shown you legal written documents of the officail US court with show the legal and official name of Madonna. More official you won't get, it's a state document. So again, prove you unfounded claims. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 15:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Option 1 The Bookkeeper   (of the Occult)  09:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * side note either way: Madonna is not a stage name - a stage name is a pseudonym (literally meaning "False name"). Madonna is her legal given name which she uses professionally. The Bookkeeper   (of the Occult)  20:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Are there people who are reading my arguments? Or am I talking to a brick wall? Again, I’m repeating my self, I know “Madonna” is one of her legal names of MLVC, and which she primarly uses as her professional name too. But in this case the option 2 is the common and preferred style at Wikipedia, this per Wikipedia style guidelines (WP:MOSBIO). See the same examples, like Prince (musician), Rihanna, Brian Jones. I can add many other examples, like Beyoncé or Adele (singer), etcetera. Please, search for yourself. But they all follow the preferred style, thus option 2. Which, as I said, is because of the guidelines. It's rather strange that I have to defend common practice. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 03:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol, its a guideline, not a damn rule. It's rather strange that you are getting so stuck up about it. This format even went through the FAC, where also it has been accepted. Just because some other articles use it, doesn't mean that this one will use it. And yes, in face of renowned authors like Taraborrelli or Morton, I'm not gonna accept some shitty wordpress document. — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 14:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, I showed you the accepted guidelines WP:MOSBIO, which is followed for this kind of names. Furthermore, I showed a lot of examples. That you want to deviate from the common practice does not make you right. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 15:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Facepalm** Its a guideline, not a fucking Rule. Check Madonna: An Intimate Biography, page 324, chapter "Wait till I hit 50". ''She took it upon herself to celebrate her 50th birthday as the most successful of the 80s trio. Sure, Princce might have sunk into being an ankh, but Madonna will be Madonna, the most popular phenomena. Right from shedding 'Veronica Ciccone' legally and going mononymous. she travelled...." — <i style="color:blue;">Legolas</i> ( talk 2 me ) 15:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I suggest we add Veronica to her name in the lead of the article, especially now that we know it featured in that court document. I'd apply changes so the lead reads: "Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone (born on August 16, 1958), better known as simply Madonna, is an American singer-songwriter, actress and entrepreneur."

The infobox explains Veronica is her confirmation name. As for the pronunciation of Ciccone, Madonna always pronounced "NEE" and not "NAY". I think the lead could omit pronunciation info or include both English & Italian pronunciations.

Legolas, I think you got unnecessarily rude towards Mr. D. E. Mophon when labelling his source "shitty". I don't believe it is. Just because a renowned author writes something doesn't mean it's factual.

"Right from shedding 'Veronica Ciccone' legally and going mononymous. she travelled..." The author implied she was born Veronica Ciccone and then legally changed her name to Madonna. We all know that is not what occurred. Madonna was always her legal name...

I have an article from 1996 that says: "Testifying under her full name of Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone, the singer told the court she was terrified of Hoskins and had suffered nightmares." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/drifter-is-guilty-of-stalking-madonna-1323103.html

So far, we have two indications, one from 1996, and one from 2010 that suggest Madonna is legally known as Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone by the Courts. In 1996, Madonna was the plaintiff and appeared as Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone, not just Madonna. Did she legally change her name to just Madonna she would have testified as simply Madonna. Another link for the 2010 case: http://www.law360.com/cases/4d5c6018b4e3ed472e000007/parties.

Here is what Madonna told Michael Gross for a 1985 Vanity Fair interview: "MG: What's your whole name. I've seen it three different ways. Madonna: My name, my now-legal name, including names given at birth? Madonna Louisa Veronica Ciccone Penn. MG: What does your driver's license say? Madonna: Madonna Ciccone. But I got it before I was married. So depending on what kind of a mood I'm in, I conjure it all different ways.

A lot of my legal papers just say "Madonna," because that's my professional name. Other things, like accounts and different things that I have are "Madonna Ciccone," and I have checkbooks that say "Madonna Penn." MG: Of all of them, what name do you like? Madonna: Madonna is the easiest. [laughs]" http://www.mgross.com/MoreThgsChng/interviews/madonna1.html

Anyway... I don't really care if her legal name is Madonna or Madonna Louise Ciccone or Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone... I just believe Veronica should be added to the lead since that name has lots of value for Madonna who chose it herself at the moment of her confirmation, countless articles, encyclopedias, biographies (including some discussed here) and even dictionaries mention it and it's part of her identity. Israell (talk) 05:46, 12 May 2011 (UTC)