Talk:Madrid/Archive 1

Opening comments
Wouldn't it be preferable to have the Madrid article to be about the Spanish capital, rather than a disambiguation page majority of writers, so that accidental linking would be encouraged that way. Besides, it's not even clear that we will ever have or even want articles on Madrid NY and Madrid the province. Just like the disambiguation policy says: if one meaning of a term is vastly more important and common than the others, disambiguation can become counterproductive. AxelBoldt

The Spanish page for Madrid says that before 1561 the capital was Toledo, not Valladolid. --Mihai 22:14, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Bit concerned that the history paragraphs have just disappeared; but it is maybe in mid edit? --Tagishsimon 02:15, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Quick remark, I am not really sure the town palace is in the La Latina neighborhood. I am pretty sure it is in the Los Austrias neighborhood instead, which is separated from La Latina by calle Segovia.

Alex

Been doing some editing of this page as I think that it is severely lacking. Please add more and make any relevant changes.

---

Carrero Blanco's death was applaud by the liberal and democratic forces--and it forced the transition to democracy, specifically to monarchy. That was a turning point in the history of Madrid and Spain; it also gives a social perspective in the history of how the relationship between people from Madrid and ETA changed with the transition to democracy itself.

J4vier

-

I think it should be enough to say it is the bigges city in the country, there is no point on saying that it's the biggest in the autonomous community too, it's obvious that if it's the biggest of the country it's also going to be the biggest of th province. For this reason I'm removing that.

Should it say it is the 3rd most populous city in the Eurpoean Union after London and Berlin? The UK is not part of the EU.

The UK is sure as hell part of the EU! --Garagerockermadrid (talk) 21:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Nightlife section
The nightlife section reads like an amateur tourist guide, not an encytclopedia. Could someone with a lot more knowledge please change this. ---Oiwoy

Carrero Blanco, ETA and Madrid
I strongly disagree with J4vier: Carrero Blanco's death was not applauded by all liberal and democratic forces, but this is not so important, as the point that he suggest that it was due to ETA (and the murder of Carrero Blanco) that democracy was settled in Spain. In fact this death contributed to the unstability of the country, where fear of more police repression and to break the timid atmosphere of freedom, touched everyone. It should be noted that democracy in Spain was brought in by democratic parties and by the Spanish citizens themselves.

Let's try to avoid a bias position--Carrero's death was definetly applaud by some liberal forces (yes, not all--mea culpa) and it is tru that it brough some unestablity. On the other hand, if carrero waould not have been killed he may have continue the dictatorship; so, in that sense, ETA projected the democracy (which i understand it is hard to accept). I think both opinions are to be held--furthermore, i don't think it is necessary to polarize the problem (as it usually happens with the subject of terrorism).

Also:emerging democratic parties led Spain to its current position as constitutional monarchy.--Well, it was Franco himself who apointed the King as his sucessor.

J4vier

J4vier, my friend, Carrero may have continued the dictatorship, but he also could have been elected Pope or even Teen Miss America. What i'm trying to say is that nobody (not even you) knows what could have happened if ETA terrorists did not murder Carrero. My opinion is that, since carrero was a mere puppet of Franco, and not a statesman with the power and the talent to rule the country, he would have never succeeded Franco when he died, and democracy would have triumphed anyway. The forces struggling for democracy were so strong at that point that I think that the political transition was inevitable.

By the way, your allegation in favour of ETA is disgusting. ETA's democratic views are summarized by the sound of their pistols against the back of inoccent civilians.

Franco fascist?
Definitely Franco was not fascist. Maybe too much political considerations in this article.


 * Actually, Franco was not strictly a fascist leader. He borrowed certain elements from the ideologies of the governments of Mussolinni and Hitler, but some other things were completely different. Franco's dictatorship was a very conservative - even traditionalist - rightist regime, in contrast with fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. I think that's why the term "franquist" was created. Sarg 10:06, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the English term is "Francoist"

Franco was definitely a fascist leader in the first years of his regime which was mainly handled by the Falange party. --83.34.31.231 18:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I concur, Franco did relay in the Falange faction as much as he wanted. When things went wrong for Fascist regimes, then he lead on other "political parties", as always (monarchists, ultra-catholics/Opus-dei, "technocrats"...). He was a brutal, represive dictator who kept Spain under his regime... saying he was no fascist is not white-washing him.--

80.103.135.134 07:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Franco never was a fascist. He was of very conservative thinking, but over all he had a great lust for power and was a very pragmatic politician. For example, in 1936 he mixed the fascist-style Falange with the Tradición, a monarchist party supporting a side branch of the Bourbons. Why? Both of them had weapons and many volunteers and were his allies against the Republic. But, as these two parties objectives were very different, he needed to behead them. So, at the same time, he expeled the chief of the Tradición, Fal Conde. I mean, Franco expeled Fal Conde out of Spain. And he also put in jail some leaders of Falange, making himself the uppermost leader of the only Party, a new Falange only fascist in appearence, but really catholic and supporting the old privileges of the great landowners and the medium to large private company owners.


 * This new party, F.E.T. y de las J.O.N.S., was the only legal party from 1936 to 1975. Whoever (fascist, monarchist, catholics or else) wanted to enter politics (and/or earn some privileges) had to do it thru this party. The most honest Pre-Franco members of Falange, like Dionisio Ridruejo, got very disapointed with Francoism.


 * Even the conservative oficials (some of them monarchists) in the Spanish Army who elected Franco as their leader (because of his African Army, the only professional troops in Spain) for the conduction of the war, later asked him for the return of the Monarchy. Franco destroyed the Republic and only could replace it with a monarchy. But a very odd monarchy, as there was no king or queen. Twice Juan de Borbón, the heir of the last king of Spain, got into Spain during the Civil War. Twice Franco expeled him "for the welfare of his person".


 * Of course, not being a fascist (nor a monarchist or a republican) is not the same as being an angel. During and after the war Franco ordered, supported or purposedly ignored several thousand murders. Many of them simply as a way to terrorize his enemies during the war. And after it, simply to kill anybody able to say "no" to his orders. Historians propose 50,000 kills after the war. He was not the best person in Spain.

Dos de Mayo
The area's center is the Plaza del Dos de Mayo (celebrating the expulsion of Napoleon's forces from Madrid and consequently Spain).

Now this is not what happened on Dos de Mayo: a popular (though possibly orchestrated) revolt against the French soldiers was brutally and effectively repressed. However, if this is what the Madrilenes celebrate, who am I to change it? So, can Spaniards please tell me what they think happened on that fatefull day? Renke 21:35, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * You are right, that's not what we celebrate. We celebrate the beginning of the popular uprising in Madrid against the French invaders, and the very heroic actions of people such as Torrejón, Malasaña, Daoíz or Velarde. Even though the revolt was (as you say) brutally repressed, it started the Spanish Independence War, which ended in 1814 with the French effectively out of Spain (although still maintaining a political influence). I'm going to modify the article slightly to reflect this. Sarg 10:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Most prestigious university
Hi! Somewhere in the Madrid article, you said "Madrid is the largest hub in Spain for university life, though the academic centre is in Salamanca". I have been living in Madrid for all my life (and going to a Madrilenian university for 6 years) and I've never heard about Salamanca being the academic centre of Spanish universities. Are you sure about that? Perhaps I'm wrong and I'm just a bit unculturate :) Sarg 15:45, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was told this by my ex-partner who was a Spaniard from Salamanca (though lived in Madrid as a young woman and therefore anything but anti Madrid), and who told me this a number of times, i.e. that Salamanca was the Oxford and Cambridge of Spain, with the oldest and most prestigious university. I am not from Spain, and though I know both Salamanca and Madrid a bit, I don't really know whetherr this was just her perception, given that you are questioning it. Looks like something that needs sourcing, --SqueakBox 16:00, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Salamanca is by far the oldest in Spain (1218). It is also one of the oldest of Europe. Considering prestige alone, Salamanca is more famous because it is a very old university. But about being the "academic centre", I have heard several times that Salamanca was the academic centre of Spanish universities when they were controlled by the Church, but nowadays each university has its own politics and rules. As far as I know, there is no organism with power over all of them (well, barring the government!). But, again, I might be utterly wrong :) Sarg 16:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Salamanca is to Spain what Bologna is to Italy. A mythic universitarian city. But the biggest universitarian community is in Madrid.


 * Salamanca was a great University, comparable to Oxford and Cambridge, centuries ago (not kidding). However, for a long while now it has been lacking in both degrees' variety & quality, and research.  It no longer is the university of reference in Spain, as opposed to Complutense or Autonoma. It carries historical importance and prestige, but is by no means the academic centre of Spain. It's not people's first option, or where parents want their kids to study.  And it is no longer comparable to Oxford or Cambridge.  But it is a really beautiful place to be, full of history, and it is quite a good university (if you're studying letters especially) --just not in the top 5 anymore.

Coat of Arms
Is that a bear on the coat of arms? What is the meaning? An explanatory caption there would be appreciated. Funnyhat 01:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yup, it is a bear, and the tree is a strawberry tree ('El Oso y el Madroño'). There is a famous statue in Puerta del Sol ([Photo]) representing the two of them. The Spanish Wikipedia has plenty of information about the legend ([Here]). Do you think translating it and making an article would be a good idea? If so, I can do it. Sarg 06:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I have been told that both the Bear and the seven stars symbolise the constellation of the Great Bear (Ursa Major). They are the same bear, tree and seven stars that can be seen at the shield of the Atlético de Madrid football club. It is curious that this city has a tree and seven stars in its symbol, just like the Minas Tirith in Tolkien's literature :).

The first allusion to the bear symbolising Madrid can be found in the battle of the Navas de Tolosa (1212). The soldiers from Madrid that fought for Alfonso VIII of Castile wore a bear in their shields. Apparently, bears were quite common in the forests of Madrid at that time. The seven stars, symbolising the Great Bear constellation were added later. The small tree, a Madroño (arbutus unedo), according to popular tradition, was also a later add. This is more or less the story of the coat of arms of the City. The resemblance with tolkien's minas tirith is a happy coincidence.

Climate and Geography
Something on the basic geography and climate of Madrid would be really nice. Here Bears and Madrid coat of arms

In the table of annual temperatures, the last column is labeled "Total". It really should be "Average," shouldn't it?

Update
I have added a citybox based on the one presented on the Vienna article. Also, I translated the climate section from the Spanish wiki article on Madrid and it has its own section between the tourist and neighborhood sections. --Lrd1rocha 04:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

When do you move the right box moved to the top?
I have noticed that some city articles such as Paris, New York City and London have a picture instead of the info box on the top. Does anyone know why? Is this because Paris can show off an Eiffel Tower picture (a symbol) on top of the box as a way of recognition? -- Lrd1rocha 02:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

university
the number of the studens in the biggest university are wrong. one can check with the spanish article in wiki.

Lack of pictures
The article could certainly benefit from some nice aerial pictures or cultural icons and stuff, it is bland compared to other major cities. A nice view of the Madrid skyline would make me happy. The Moscow page is nice, has many stunning high definition pictures.

That's because Moscow is more spectacular than Madrid. Madrid is a relatively new city so it doesn't have as many monuments.

That´s so ridiculous...Madrid has a lot of amazing monuments and it is, at least, as spectacular as Moscow. If you say that is because you don´t know the city

Madrid Neighborhoods
The neighborhoods section is very thorough and complete, I wonder if it might be better as a separate article. I would suggest leaving the introductory information and the picture of Plaza de España then creating a separate article with all of the information and photos of the neighborhoods. A list of the neighborhoods described on the main article might also be good for the main Madrid page. I would be happy to make these changes if anyone thinks they are a good idea. VisiGrad 10:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

8Th economy in the world
Please, change this:

"""Spain has the ninth largest economy in the world, and the fifth largest in Europe.""" The fifth in Europe is true, but Spain has the 8th largest economy in the world. Consult The economist. Thank you.

11-M attacks report highly biased
The same people who had been vandalising the 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings article, have included their conspiracy theories here. Please correct the 11-M section with the information from the main article.

EDIT: ok, it has been removed and now links to the main article. Even better.

EDIT 2: they've done it AGAIN. These people need a shrink.

Bull Fighting
This part about bull fighting and the great largest bull fighting ring in Spain etc should be scrapped. It constitutes an approval of this vicious, outdated and murderous game (bull fighting is NOT a sport as sport has competition and apart from the bull sometimes taking the torrero up in the air, the bull can never hope to win...). Just have the building as an architectural mention, or place a link to anti-bull fighting.
 * I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. I don't like bullfights, I think they're brutal, vicious, cruel and all the horrible adjectives you used to described it. I'm also against cruelty towards animals, but bullfighting is part of the culture of Madrid. You may like it or not, you may agree with it or not, but 'San Isidro' and Las Ventas are very important if you want to give an objective view of what the city is. This encyclopedia is not only for talking about what we like about the city, but to give objective information whether we like that information or we don't. That is why I think that mantaining the article about Bullfighting is important eventhough we don't like what it talks about.


 * Okay, agreed, but at least place in the related links a link to anti bull fighting http://www.iwab.org/


 * I'm sorry but we can't post commercial or personal websites in wikipedia. If someone writes an article about bullfighting then you could place your site there in some anti-bullfighting section, but otherwise it's impossible to do so.


 * hey, it is not as easy as it seems. i donºt suport bull fights either. Speaking about it is ok... but saying it is a sport is not valid. it doesnºt fit as a sport and it is a biased competition, since the bull is doped. Another point is: if you want to illustrate the bull fighting, wouldnºt it be apologizing something violent? we canºt go on thinking "so what, it happens, doesnºt it?!" it is not the way it works. by writing to an encyclopedia, we are ,above all, educators. you canºt just go on and display it just because it is true! that is the not the correct aplication of the information here! If it follows your line of thought, we would have to place photos of raping and underaged sex to represent rape and pedophilia. i my view point, it should NOT state it as a sport, and it should be a bit condenative about it. OR it should be very technical about it, just like the article about cannibalism. take a look. it would inspire you experienced writers. sorry about the apostrophes, i just don't know how to write them in this spanish keyboard.(HelenoBR).

CTBA? A "barrio"?
I was born in Madrid more than thirty years ago. And I live in Madrid since then. The so called "cuatro torres business arena" is not a district nor a "barrio". In Spanish cities, a barrio is a residential area. And this four skyscrappers, now unfinished, will be used as offices by a lot of companies. So, no Spanish person would call them a "barrio".

Even more. If these four buildings would be used as apartments, buying or renting would be very, very, very expensive. And Spanish rich people do not call "barrios" their supposedly prestigious properties. The word "barrio" is only used for the houses inhabited by workers (blue or white collar).

Did somebody ever hear the expression "el barrio de La Moraleja"?

The only reliable source of information about districts and their "barrios" is the one in the "Administrative Divisions" section.


 * Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 20.400. Would you rather "neighbourhood"?
 * DRAE does not make your nuances.
 * --Error 00:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, I think we should take that article out of the 'neighborhoods' section.

Please explain the following
Can someone define Iberroman? I've never see this word.

Also,

"Matrit", which is still conserved intact in the Madrilenian gentilic.[4]

In what gentilic? Madrileño? Please give the example if you're going to say this term still survives.Arthurian Legend 18:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

matritense. (De Matrītum, forma latina dada al nombre de Madrid). 1. adj. Natural de Madrid. 2. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a esta ciudad, capital de España.
 * Iberroman is wrongly spelled, it shoud be 'Ibero-roman' (meaning people or customs from Iberia, descendants from Romans or the Roman Empire)
 * Matrit --> Matritense; According to the R.A.E. dictionary (www.rae.es):

User:Jortegag 14:10, 2 September 2006 (UCT)


 * Yes. Matritense. But matritense is a latin word. A latin word never spelt by any Roman, because during the Roman empire Madrid did not exist. Matrit and matritense are only used by the Catholic priests, the only people in the Universe speaking latin today. Oh, yes! And it may be used by some pedantic persons. Some journalists, for example. In Spain is very usual that sport reporters use this type of odd words: Gauls for the french teams, Teutons for the German ones, and so.


 * What if it's a latin word? Spanish is full of latin words, many of them not strongly used, but still they are part of the language. Madrid did exist during the Roman Empire, as a little village, but it existed (read 'origin of the name' for further information). Maybe you don't like to know the etimolgy of words, but it's interesting to know where words come from.

Unnecessary pictures
Don't you people think that there're a lot of redundant and unnecessary pictures in the article? we should add more information instead of adding more pictures that in the end say nothing. It is fine to try to illustrate what we tell through images, but in the end the article is increasing in pictures but not in new information making it too large according to wikipedia standards. I think we should make a selection and delete all the pictures that don't add anything new.

- And what's the point with that picture of Chueca with the obvious remains of rubbish of a Friday or Saturday night? Isn't that quite mischievous of that Korean user who has posted it evidently to damage Madrid's image? Is nobody going to check that?--Garagerockermadrid (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Arabic name
The Arabic name appears as both Mayrit and Majerit. Somebody knowledgeable should use a proper transcription according to the usage of English-speaking Arabists. --Error 12:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"renk is the coolest person ever to not go to Spain"
I found these inexplicable remarks in this article. However they could not be found in the editing page. Instead there was the correct "Madrid is a city of great cultural and political importance." How did this happen and how do we fix it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.118.155.41 (talk) 02:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

I wish that I could live in Madrid. Mewtwowimmer 17:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Economy
Well, when you read the subsection of this article regarding Madrid's economy it seems that things are going horribly bad and that there are no strong points in the economy of this city, just weaknesses. However, Madrid has been growing at a pace of around 4% without interruption for 10 years now. Nowadays it is one of the most dynamic economies in Europe, with a GDP per capita well above and an unemployment rate well below the european averages. Nothing of this is reflected in the article and I think it would favour the neutrality of the text if somebody included it.

Peer review requested for this article
As noted above, a Peer review has been requested for this article. Please feel free to edit this article to improve it and/or leave a comment at Peer_review. Espana Viva  18:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Madrid Peer review - assistance requested
A Peer review of this Madrid article has resulted in a number of significant and very helpful suggestions. If you are interested in improving this article, please see the Peer review suggestions, here. Espana Viva  03:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * All of Madrid's Administrative divisions info is has now its own main article. Please see Madrid (Administrative Divisions). I believe this will get a better Madrid article Maurice27 20:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There are some section that may very well be removed:
 * 1) Climate: I think the data from the "Parque del Retiro Observatory" is enough, therefor the "Barajas Airport Observatory" data may be erased.
 * 2) Television: I don't think all the TV stations are interesting for international community and could be removed.
 * 3) Universities: They could go to a special main article

Maurice27 21:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I also added a Geography section (with fauna and flora) to the article. Maurice27 21:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Great addition Maurice27! :-) I agree with you about removing the tv and Barajas info, but maybe a few lines about the two main unis should stay? Raystorm 00:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the TV and Barajas info. I also improved the general infobox by adding a location map and the correct shield of the city, with full colors.--Maurice27 22:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Added economical data. hosting of large companies in lead paragraph (WITH REFERENCE ;))

Overall improvement of the "universities" section --Maurice27 23:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed Motorways section. --Maurice27 23:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I changed the Administrative division title for "City Government". I added a link to the list of mayors of madrid, a picture of the mayor and explained briefly the government of Madrid. --Maurice27 23:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Added economical data. hosting of large companies in the lead paragraph (with references) --Maurice27 00:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

London
London as largest city within city limits? That must mean Greater London; the City of London is rather tiny. I'm not sure exactly what someone means to say here, so I leave it to someone else to edit. - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

ludic, inciciatives, etc
I removed the small paragraph about Madrid expanding its "ludic" and "touristic" "iniciatives"--I found its tone and content both un-encylopedic and feel the same information is already prominent in other sections of the article.

"City" or "metropolitan" area?
I just reverted a user who added Getafe CF. in the sport section because I considered Getafe not part of Madrid's city council, but then I thought about the metropolitan area to which Getafe IS part of. The question is... Is this article only about the city or also its metroplitan area? Cheers, --Maurice27 18:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

City Government
I believe that the section on the city government needs to be updated. To begin with, the current President of the Autonomous Community of Madrid is Esperanza Aguirre from the People's Party (PP). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alejfig (talk • contribs) 22:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

La suma de todos
"La suma de todos" is the motto of the COMMUNITY of Madrid, doesn't the city of Madrid, thenks Arqet 11:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

City Government
This section has serious problems between economic data from then, and a "modern vision" of the franco's dictatorship.

The franco regime in his late term (1959-75) was based in "desarrollismo" (an aproximated tranlation could be development) lead by a group of technocrats who come out from the elite of the opus dei. Spain was only in partial political isolation from europe, not economic.

In the middles 70's Spain reachs the mark of 1 million cars yearly produced, was the fourth largest shipmaker in the world and had a bouming tourism industry. The first million phone lines in spain (12 country on reach the mark in the 20th century) was set in the 60's.

The "economic shambles" were trigger by the supply shock caused by oil in 1973, and the spain goverment inhability to figth inflation and unemployment, due to the lack of clear monetary policies. That situation reaches spain in the 1975-78 period, after franco's death. This took to the pactos de la moncloa against inflation / monetary expansion, unemployment, fiscal deficit and promotion of economic stability, that begin to control the situation in the earlys 80's).

Yet great landmarks of madrid were build in franco regime 1960-70, like Plaza España or AZCA.

A personal note: dictatorships are bad in self, is not necesary change history to realize that. But changing history brings unnecesary arguments to tyrants defenders.

--Morkhan 03:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)