Talk:Madurai/Archive 1

De Morgan
Wow! I didn't know De Morgan (remember De Morgan's theorems?!) was born in Madurai. Many thanks to whoever added this piece of info!! ~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elviajero (talk • contribs) 22:24, 7 April 2005 (UTC)

The Madurai of the Sangam Era
It'll be interesting if someone can fish information about Madurai of the Sangam era and the exact manner in which it was burnt as described in the Silappadikaram. I am doing some amateur look at records and geological information, which points out to a possible minor volcanic eruption in the 3rd Century BCE. I still need to get hard evidence, but I want to know if anyone else has a similar hypothesis in relation to its destruction. There is a definite record of what is interpreted as a Tsunami occuring after the burning indicating some geological (seismic?) event. --Beta 17:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * OTOH, I only remember that Kannagi cut off her left breast and threw at Madurai to initiate a devastating fire. But, your hypothesis seems interesting. Let me see if I get something. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 03:44, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Girls Education in Madurai
I have removed some reference to school education for girls. Since I was born in Madurai, and I have been living here in Madurai for the past 35 years, I know Madurai very well. There are 3 exclusive women colleges and hundreds of Girls schools. Can any body get a seat for a relative girl of mine this year. I think the writer has worn some colored glasses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.11.89.207 (talk • contribs)
 * Yes. Much of that section is personal opinion. The article needs to be written in an encyclopedic manner. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 12:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevent message
"At the time of the 2001 census it was the second largest city in the state of Tamil Nadu after Chennai." -- this message is totally irrelevent. What is necessity of writing old statistic ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.92.103.93 (talk) 09:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Tnlogo.png
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BetacommandBot 04:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
Hi all,

i have done some major cleanup to the article to make it look more in standards  of encarta ... Coments and discussions (until it doesnt elope physically ;) ) are welcome and i am open to revert anything that is unencyclopedic but would never bind to non secular  unencyclopedic  porpagandas... LEts join hands to make this more better article

07:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karthikeyan.pandian (talk • contribs)

General Standards
The whole article suffers from very poor grammar, irrelevant information, and a bit of Vandalism. (What's about the salem thing?) I've started the process of cleaning it up and am halfway through the History part. Hopefully I'll finish it soon.

If you have any ideas, let's discuss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.32.153 (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC (UTC)

Notable people
I've removed a couple of names from the list of notable people born in Madurai. I've also removed external links to two Telugu pages and Sourashtra college since I don't think they are relevant to this topic for the following reasons.
 * I'm in principle opposed to such lists in an article about places.

-- Sundar \talk \contribs July 8, 2005 05:15 (UTC)
 * We need to talk about the place and not about individuals
 * Notability is subjective
 * It is tough to determine the "native placefor someone. For example, Kamal Hassan was listed in the Chennai article, whereas he was born in Paramakudi.
 * These lists tend to be very long and if at all, belong to separate articles of themselves

Population figures
It's mentioned that Sourashtrians make up for about 20-30% of Madurai's population. I think they do, but in the absence of any official figures to substantiate this claim, it's best to say that they maintain a significant presence in the city and not give any numbers. Do let me know if you disagree. ~, Jul 8, 2005
 * Being a Maduraiite, I feel that the population of Sourashtrians will be around 20% in Madurai City. Any way, we can't put any figures without a citable reference. -- Sundar \talk \contribs July 8, 2005 05:15 (UTC)

Image copyright
Elviajero, can you please update the image with it's copyright status? The referenced site seems to suggest that the photo might not be released under any of the licenses that would allow us to use it. Refer to WP:IUP for more information. Calvinkrishy 09:18, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Badly written article
There are 3 things that make it so. (1) Too few references (2) The authors non neutral viewpoint....Like in the people section "The people of Madurai are amicable, hospitable, and deeply respect and value their traditions. " These kind of sentences DO NOT belong in an encyclopedia. This pattern is repeated in the entire article. Another example is in the "present problem" section, where the author wrote "The elite and professionals who ought to guide their fellow citizens into the new economy shrug away from their responsibilities, and worse, move to other cities looking for greener pastures and settle down there" I would like to remind the author that this is an encyclopedia not an opinion essay on what some one OUGHT to do. 71.174.89.104 (talk) 18:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

inconsistent data
In the geography section:

Madurai, with an area of 52 km² (now extended up to 130 km²)[3] is located at 9.93° N 78.12° E.[4] It has an average elevation of 101 meters above Mean Sea Level.

In the Infobox:

Area:109 km² (42 sq mi) Elevation: 8 m (26 ft)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcp-ip (talk • contribs) 19:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Population Decline
I expect the population "decline" indicated in the chart here in fact was growth but suburban sprawl -- small de-population of the traditional center perhaps as the urban area expanded. So the heading is misleading: I suggest "trends" instead, with an explanation of the regional expansion -- someone should confirm this, though. --Kessler (talk) 04:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Education section
I think this section currently is just listing schools in Madurai. This is not what the section is supposed to be. We need to cut it down to only those that are "noteworthy" either by age or for some other reason. It would be great if someone familiar with Madurai can do the edits or at least provide the information in this talk page. ɤіɡʍаɦɤʘʟʟ 21:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Examples of local colleges, however, are very useful for overseas i.e. non-Indian readers, in understanding the current Indian technology/globalization miracle, to which they are key. So I have added a link as-suggested, to the Sourastra example, and left it in: by seeing and exploring such a site, an overseas user can begin to appreciate the great depth of the social experiment now under way -- a mere note that "there are a lot of colleges" doesn't say enough, every place has "a lot of colleges". --Kessler (talk) 11:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

image
please don't keep images centre aligned that too expanded to 500px. Right aligned with 160-180px gives better look to the article.-wasifwasif —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasifwasif (talk • contribs) 10:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Vadamalian hospital
Please provide the address —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.199.131.9 (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

St. Mary's Church photo please
Adding a photo - picture of St. Mary's church, Victoria bridge, Vaigai River, Madura Coats will bring Madurai live on the web —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.55.173 (talk) 17:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

i added a photo of St.Marys cathedral. but was deleted due to license issues. I have no idea about where to get the licensed image of St.Mary's church.-wasifwasif — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasifwasif (talk • contribs) 06:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Politics-- can avoid please
A new section POLITICS has been created in Madurai with names of number of political parties. this will lead to number of edit conflicts by the supporters of each party. In my view, Names of constituencis along with the populatio and names of representatives alone will do. suggestions please. -- wasifwasif — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasifwasif (talk • contribs) 06:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Madurai - 2nd largest or 3rd?
Hi, There are some repeated edits regarding Madurai's place in the list of Largest city in tamilnadu. It is mentioned with some link as second, immediately it gets edited as third after Chennai and coimbatore. Kindly conclude this issue with some valid references and statistical data. --wsifwasif — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasifwasif (talk • contribs) 12:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

secon largest from when?
Wasif,

I have a problem with the phrase "from its origin". Does it mean from the origin of the city of madurai or the orgin of Tamil country/state of Tamil Nadu/Madras Presidency etc?.


 * 1) If we take it by "from origin of the city of madurai", we do not know for sure if it was second largest always. It could have been the largest during sangam age or during the 8-13 Centuries. I believe it would have the largest during the second pandyan empire (1216-1308 CE).
 * 2) If we take it as the "origin of state", the question which state (Ancient Tamilagam/Madras Presidency/Tamil Nadu) arises.

It is for this reason i removed the "from its origin" in your edit. We only know the populations of all cities since the 1871 census. We need to make this clear. So i propose we remove the vague "from its origin" and make it clear we are taking only about Tamil Nadu (as Tamil Nadu comes immediately after the paranthesis).

--Sodabottle (talk) 14:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sodabottle,

Its generally a known fact that Madurai was teh second largest city after chennai and to be particular from the origin of Tamil Nadu. SO i think it would be better to mention that. Wasifwasif (talk) 11:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit war regarding Arab/Muslim/Pandyan rule
a few points: --Sodabottle (talk) 08:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a slow edit war going on regarding Arab/Muslim rule. Please keep in mind that the Madurai Sultanate lasted about 50 years. Before that Madurai (Ma'bar) was under Delhi Sultanate for 13 years. So before Marudhanayagam/Yusuf Khan's rule in 18th century, Madurai was under Muslim rule for less than 75 years (out of nearly 2000 years of recorded history). That is not a "very long time". The two sultans mentioned - Alauddin Shah and Sikandar Shah were minor kings even in the Sultanate.
 * Similarly quantifying Pandyan rule as glorious is rather dubious. Sure there were times of great prosperity and power - like the second Pandyan empire in the 13th century. But for a long time they were just small chieftains under the heel of the Chola domination. So lets not paint anything with a single brush as glorious.


 * I have rewritten the entire history section, mentioning all the rulers of Maduarai without using any superlatives and adjectives. Please try to follow the tone i have used when you edit the history section.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Rulers
Sikandhar Shah, Ala-ud-Din Udauji and Jalaluddin Ahsan Khan are not notable rulers of Madurai by any stretch. As i explained above, Madurai Sultanate had a very brief existence when compared to other dynasties/kingdoms. Their rule was brief (10 years, less than a year and 4 years respectively), during a period of turmoil and they have been disparaged by foreign visitors during their reign. They had control of very little territory outside of Madurai and were not emperors. If you want to add notable rulers, try Neduncheliyan III (thalayalanganathu cheru vendra pandyan), Jatavarman Sundara Pandyan, Maravarman Kulasekara Pandyan I, Thirumalai Nayak and Rani Mangammal. But even these are debatable as notable. I am struggling to assume good faith here, but singling out three kings (one of them who ruled less than a year) of an obscure dynasty as notable rulers is blatant POV pushing.--Sodabottle (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Independence Activists
While adding local freedom fighters add with a source. Some of the ones i removed had no or little association with Madurai. For instance Bharathi worked in sethupathi high school for just 7 months in 1904. Thats the extent of his association with Madurai; Quaid-E-Millet Muhammad Ismail was a leader of Tirnelveli District, not Madurai. So while adding any name, add a reference and how he was connected to Madurai, not far fetched connections.--Sodabottle (talk) 18:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Muhammad Ismail i was referring was not Quaide millat. It was Muhammad Ismail & Niyamatullah Ibrahim of Madurai who actively participated in Independence war in Madurai. I am searching for good references will add shortly.Wasifwasif (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

History of Madurai
Why do you object to covering the period between 550 CE and 1306 CE?. I am describing all major incidents during history of Madurai in one line. You are right about keeping it short/summary style. I will remove the dark period description line and reinsert this instead. then it would be covering all time periods without a gap.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have shortened it further. To sum up - one or two sentences have been added for all major happenings/eras.
 * My intention was to make the entire history short including all ages to have a better look of the article. Detailed History can be taken to a seperate article. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have taken your advice. I removed two more descriptive lines out of the section. --Sodabottle (talk) 15:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Crime rate
Crime rate, doesn't it creates a panic among the readers? Wikipedia is widely referred and Madurai and maduraiites are in major dependednt on Tourism industry. Mentioning in particular as 19th in India (yes it is) Will this not affect the industry? This was the only idea behind me removing that info. Whats your thought? Wasifwasif (talk) 15:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually it is a positive addition. It is 19th of 27 35 big cities in whole of India. Crime Rate in Madurai is low for India (Madurai ranks better than Chennai actually). Anyway, it definitely wont scare readers (ranking in the lower third half of the crime prone cities is an attraction)--Sodabottle (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it is ok. i agree with your view. Let it be. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I intend to fill up more demographic data/stats there. It will one among many statistics.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Image montage
As ArunHotty is trying to change the montage, let us discuss here and establish consensus. I believe following images should be there in the montage


 * Meenakshi Temple
 * Mahal
 * Maqbara
 * Goripalayam Darga
 * Vandiyur Theppakulam
 * Junction
 * High Court
 * Cathedral

I believe all images are available under licence in commons/en wiki. What do you think?--Sodabottle (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This will be ok. From your list, Goripalayam Dargah and Highcourt alone are missing in the image which i have uploaded. WIll include that too. Wasifwasif (talk) 06:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A 3X3 =9 panel always looks good for infobox montages. So try and get it to 9 images (if we fell short of the number, a view of vaigai over AV bridge or chithirai festival crowd shot too can be added)--Sodabottle (talk) 06:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Good. Picture of Azhagar's entry into vaigai and jallikattu can be added. But 3X3 will minimize the image size much. 2X4 will give a better look i feel. Especially Temple when covering all 4 gopuras 3X3 wouldn't do good job. Wasifwasif (talk) 11:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I am by chance here and don't want to mend in the discussion. I think the top panel of File:Madurai_landmarks.jpg has a nice angle but poor illumination. I tried to fix it (and other panels), but it is not that quick job (lighting is poor). A proper picture of that angle could be nice somewhere in the article as it shows the ensemble. File:Madurai covered all.JPG has problems in terms of quality and composition. Materialscientist (talk) 06:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for working on that. We indeed have better illuminated/quality pictures in commons and flickr (proper licensed). We will hash out the design here. Thanks again for your work. --Sodabottle (talk) 07:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Wasif,

a better resolution (and colour) image of theppakulam is available in Commons. Can you use it to replace the black and white one in the current montage?--Sodabottle (talk) 07:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes Soda,

Will replace that shortly. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Soda,

Can you give me the link or the image name.? I couldn't find the exact image. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:35, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Distance locator of a city
Hello Wasifwasif, May I know the reason of removing the distance locator from Madurai article? It is a standard procedure in the IN city articles to include the distance and direction from the capital in the lead. It helps the reader to familarize the location and certainly improves the article quality. If there is no strong reason to remove it from the lead, kindly re-insert the information. Thank you, --Freknsay (talk) 06:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Freknsay,

Could you please list some articles of major cities, having distance locators. SO that we can adopt the same procedures to madurai too. Wasifwasif (talk) 13:04, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Please check Coimbatore, Salem, Tamil Nadu, Rourkela, Mangalore, Kochi, Allahabad, etc.. Adding the dist locator in the lead will improve the visibility passed on to the reader. I don't see any negative impact on the article by adding that info. If you still strongly feel that it should be removed from the article, please go ahead. Thanks a lot.--Freknsay (talk) 07:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

-We have a map linked. A picture speaks better than 1000 words. Map link will help in locating better than just name of 2 cities and their distance in kms. Removing that for now. Pls confirm. Wasifwasif (talk) 14:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

It may be your POV. The map will not give any idea about the distance from state capital. Any ways, I don't have any problem, as I am not involved in the betterment of this article. I wish the editors do not try to WP:OWN the article. Thank you, Freknsay (talk) 04:30, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Newly added temples
can we have 14.5 Arulmigu Tirumohur Kalamega Perumal Temple. 14.6 Arulmigu Tiruvadavoor Temple. 14.7 Arulmigu Pazhamuthir Cholai Murugan Temple. 14.8 Arulmigu Azhagar Koil. 14.9 Thiruvedagam 14.10 Madappuram Badrakali Amman Temple 14.11 Anaimalai: Narashima perumal and Narasinga valli thayar". 14.12 Pandi Kovil Karuppayurani 14.13 Other Important Temples. These temples in seperate article? This are not much familiar compared with the earlier ones. Wasifwasif (talk) 11:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. This reduces the quality of the article. Reverting to state before these changes. Sarabsethh (talk) 11:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

since its origin
I am removing the "second largest city from its origin till 2004 / 2001" bit from the lead. This is vague and inaccurate. Madurai is thousands of years old. no one know for sure what rank/size it was having prior to regular census started in 1871. For all we know it could have been the largest during some times and sometimes when it was sacked by the Chola and Delhi sultanate armies, it lay in ruins for extended periods. Thus a "since its origin" statement is sweeping and not factual.

We have comparable size and population data only from the 19th century. And going by those historical census details, Madrai ranked behind Chennai and Trichy during 1871-1910. For all the four censusus conducted for this period, trichy had the higher population. Thus trichy was the second largest city by population in TN / Madras presidency for this time period. This line is thus inaccurate, vague and does not belong in the lead.--Sodabottle (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

ok fine. then go ahead. Wasifwasif (talk) 06:30, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Even I had a thought of raising this issue in the talk page. How can someone say that a city "was largest from it's origin". Chennai was a small village before 350 years. Remember, Bangalore was way behind Chennai and Hyderabad before 50 years. -- Commander (Ping Me) 10:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Largest city
An IP is changing Madurai to second largest city using a reference from Ency. Brittanica. In wikipedia, we use the population statistics for determining the largest cities. Thus Madurai comes third after Chennai and Coimbatore (Using both Metropolitan and Urban agglomeration statistics). Brittanica might have a different standard for determining the largest cities or might be having an unrevised article written prior to 2001 (when the coimbatore population became more than madurai population). I suggest the IP respond here before reverting me again.--Sodabottle (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand the term "Madurai is second largest by land". It is evident that Coimbatore is the second largest urban agglomeration in Tamil Nadu. The term urban agglomeration refers to city and its surrounding sub-urban areas. Now, if we take city limit alone, Coimbatore is second largest by land area. To make it more clear, here is the latest order passed by Tamil Nadu government on city limits.. So, Madurai is third largest by both population and land area, before and after the order passed by government. We never care about the past size. If anybody wants to mention about past size in history, they can do so under "history" section. Don't play around with words. - Boss2boss (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC) ĝ
 * The link which you have shared clearly speaks about corporation and not about agglomeration. Agglomeration includes not just the corporation limits but the semi urban area within the entire district. So Madurai agglomeration expands till Melur in the east, Thirumangalam in the south west, Usilampatti in the northwest. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The sub-urban areas of Coimbatore extends till Avinashi in the north, Tiruppur in the north-east, Palladam in the east and Pollachi in the south. Again there are no definite limits or boundaries for any urban agglomeration rather it is calculated with the help of population. The area may exceed the district or even the state. The sub-urban areas of Delhi extends into states of U.P and Haryana. It is well known that the western districts are the most urbanized part in the state of Tamil Nadu whereas the Madurai region still has lot of rural pockets. Some estimates put the urban areas of Coimbatore (Western) region extending beyond Erode up to Salem and Namakkal. Here are some references which put Coimbatore well ahead of Madurai in urban agglomeration.. Considering the population, city limit, GDP, urban agglomeration or by any other means of land measurement, it is clearly established that Coimbatore is the second largest city in Tamil Nadu. Hence Madurai can be shifted to third place. Hope this explanation helps. - Boss2boss (talk) 23:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This is ok. But do some research on land wise data. Wasifwasif (talk) 10:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Official Indian census does announce a UA population for cities. So ideally there should be a matching official land area for UAs. (what other local bodies they are adding to corporation limits to arrive at the UA population numbers). I have been searching for this for sometime and still am not able to figure it out.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Fine. Add it once you get the exact figures. Wasifwasif (talk) 12:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Indian census does announce the population of UA's. But I cannot really figure out the area covered by the UA's, except for some big cities like Chennai, Mumbai, etc., Long back I saw a website stating that the UA of coimbatore has an area of 373 sq.kms, though not sure about it. -- Commander (Ping Me) 07:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It really makes me surprise that someone stating the Sub-urban areas of Coimbatore extends till Tiruppur. How could that be? Tiruppur is nearly 50 km from coimbatore and the city itself is a municipal corpn. and a separate dist. If coimbatore's sub-urban area extends till that surely it would be larger than Chennai in terms of land area which is highly impossible. -- Commander (Ping Me) 07:23, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Also Madurai was not the third largest corpn. in terms of area before the orders were passed. It had a very small area which was not really expanded much after it was elevated to a municipal corpn way back in 1971. -- Commander (Ping Me) 07:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Makeup of the article
The article gives excessive coverage to "Festivals", "Religious Heads" and "Tourism and Landmarks". At the same time, there are only one or two lines each on "Geography", "Demographics" and "Architecture". The presence of too much unencyclopedic stuff makes it look more like a Wikitravel page.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It does look a little lop-sided. However, is that because the shorter sections that you refer to are lacking in content rather than because the other sections are too long? I do have my eye on doing some further pruning but at present I am trying to find my way round the subject matter. - Sitush (talk) 15:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I just had a look at Coimbatore article. Coparing with that, madurai article is too good in terms of info and built up structure. Can someone have a look at Coimbatore article and say in what way make up of this article is disturbing.? Also can someone explain why is that a sudden pour up of so many users who have very less contribution to this article doing these many re arrangement? Sarabsethh (talk) 16:34, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:OSE. As for the "sudden pur up", well, like you, I have not edited this article much. So we both fall into that category. In my case, my attention was drawn to it when I saw a mention somewhere else. What is your concern about this? - Sitush (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This article looks definitely worser than the Coimbatore article. Look, there are a set of informal guidelines on what constitutes an encyclopedia and some of the stuff aren't encyclopedic. Of course, we can let them be here, but if at all the stuff remains here, there is no way that the article can be given a higher rating. And as far as contributions are concerned, I don't think anyone has made serious research to write this article.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 19:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Every ecclesisatical province has an archbishop. This being the case, a separate section for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Madurai is a bit too much. The same goes for adheenams, too. There are also adheenams in other parts of Tamil Nadu such as the Thiruppanandal Adheenam, etc. This being the case, only the "Kaziyar" appears to be notable as he functions as the Chief qazi to the TN government. Anyway, this article is not about "Religions of Madurai" or anything of that sort. So there could be a general description of Islam in Madurai in the "Demographics" section and references to the Kaziyar could be moved to the section. The section "Tourism and Landmarks" should surely be cut short as this is not a travel guide. "Festivals" should be renamed as "Culture" and should contain a general description of the culture of Madurai.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 19:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I am also concerned that some of what is referred to may not be in the city but in the district, which has its own article. - Sitush (talk) 19:36, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Most of the information given in the article, I believe, pertains to Madurai city only. True, Thiruparankundram is located about 7 kms from Madurai, but Madurai is quite a big city with a population of about 900,000. Thiruparankundram, might very well be considered a suburb. On the contrary, the article on Madurai District contains information only about Madurai city and not about other parts of the district.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 06:14, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * My long wait for the re building of this article has come to an end. Thanks for this. As the top most contributor to this article, i would like to add that, the info addedd here are unique in some way or notable to the city but not presented in a format suiting wiki. Think twice and arrive at consensus before deleting any section. Also try to fit the info in some or the other section which will be in par with wikipedia stnndards rather than simply deleting it. Wasifwasif (talk) 07:09, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, we are not talking about deleting it. We are only discussingt on how to copy-edit and merge some of those sections with others.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 07:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Wasifwasif (talk) 08:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Good work sitush. go ahead. Wasifwasif (talk) 18:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Chittirai copyvio
I have just removed the entire Chittirai subsection, as a copyright violation of content that has existed on the site I named in my edit summary since at least 2002, per the Wayback machine. It was added to this article by an IP here. I guess I'll now have to check all other contributions by this IP because I've already spotted some violations but not bothered to track down who committed them. Oh dear. - Sitush (talk) 15:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Religious sensitivities
I am very conscious of religious sensitivities but also extremely ignorant about religions generally, so please forgive any faux pas in what follows. Trust me, if they exist then they are not intended!

There is a comment regarding the Hazrats and the Big Mosque which did say at one point that these people are descendants of Mohammed. I asked for a citation and came up with one, which appears to be the official website of the Maqbara. So far, so good. However, I am extremely wary of making such a bold claim as "are" about a lineage stretching back as far as Mohammed. I agree that the Maqbara website says this but, well, it would, wouldn't it? Surely this is rather like citing a Christian website for the statement that Jesus was the son of God, even though plenty of people around the world think that both are fictional characters.

Now, I am not saying that Mohammed is a fictional character. I have no real knowledge and no real interest, but the point remains that pretty much any source for statements relating to him and his descendants is likely to have a POV, which starts (I guess) with whether or not he existed & how much of the writings about him from all those years ago are hagiography and how much are fact. Much the same discussion as can be had with the Bible etc, in other words.

For this reason, I think it is safer to say that the Hazrats are believed to be descendants of Mohammed, rather than that they are. Is this really going to cause massive offence? I do not see why it should: if you believe then the fact is there, and if you do not believe then the "softening" word is there.

Thoughts are welcome but, please, re-read my first two sentences. I am not trying to start some religious war here & have no desire to be on the wrong end of a fatwa. - Sitush (talk) 13:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Believed sounds reasonable to me. "Believed by ..." or "Said to be" would be even more accurate. --rgpk (comment) 21:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No harm in adding believed to be.. Wasifwasif (talk) 07:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

City that never sleeps
A section called "The City That Never Sleeps" keeps being added and removed from the article. Although it has a couple of citations for minor points, it is mostly original research and somewhat POV.

There are numerous large cities around the world that have adopted a similar title, either from long ago or as a more modern marketing exercise. It is, to me, pretty meaningless. It could be noted in sentence or two rather than using a full section, bearing in mind that the phrase is already in the lead. Anyone fancy drafting up something that we can all agree on instead of this endless deletion and reinstatement cycle? - Sitush (talk) 10:07, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * IMO, a two-three line mention in the culture section (if there is one) is warranted. A lot of coverage directly covering this issue exists in the Tamil press, as it is indeed an unusual feature for Tamil nadu's cities. Here is a news feature from Kalaignar TV on the night life (!) of Madurai. And as someone mentioned in edit summaries, a recent movie was named after this. How about the following lines inserted in either economy or entertainment sections using the above source?


 * "Madurai is called Thoonga Nagaram (lit. the city that never sleeps) because of its functioning twenty four hours a day. flower shops, vegetable warehouses and roadside hotels remain open through out the night. This is unusual among the cities of Tamil Nadu which shut down before midnight"--Sodabottle (talk) 10:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Your explanation makes sense: I could not work out why so much emphasis was being put on this, not being from India etc. Which is perhaps a warning to all editors: Wikipedia is read by the world, not just people in one country etc. Anyway, your suggestion seems fine to me, except I am not too happy about using YouTube as the source. You will be surprised how many people cannot access YouTube and it should be a "source of last resort" because it is rich media. Can another source do the job? - Sitush (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It could well nigh be true. But the whole section was badly written and poorly sourced. Maybe, we can have one or two lines, at a max a paragraph, not a section. Besides, giving names as "The City that never sleeps" imbibes too much sensationalism to the article.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yup, we should create a new section on "Culture". The section on "Festivals" could be reduced and merged with that.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:45, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * A few sources are already added by an user.Wasifwasif (talk) 11:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * people who deleted, who discussed and who gave suggestions seem not to work in that part. So adding under culture section as consensus was arrived aboveWasifwasif (talk) 14:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Offices unique to Madurai.
Govt. offices which are unique to Madurai, or attracting users from places outside Madurai alone are given a mention in the page. For Eg: High court bench which is next only o chennai is given a mention, whereas Distri court which common across all District HQ is not emntioned. Similiar is the Employment office. Professional Employment office is next only to chennai. Why this is trivial? when Passport office and High court bench are not? Wasifwasif (talk) 14:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I would argue that the passport office is probably trivial. The court may be worth noting, but I am not sufficiently familiar with the Indian court system. If it were an article about a British city then I would not be mentioning the court, that is for sure. All cities have courts - it is trivial. - Sitush (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

In the Indian system too every district has got court, which is not mentioned here. High court and its bench take care of the entire state. Here high court is situated in chennai and its bench in Madurai similar is the Professioanl Employment office which attracts registrants from half of the state. So i guss this should not be trivial. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No. That actually confirms that the court is a trivial point also. The employment office thing has always been totally uncited, and I would like to know how many other professional employment offices there are in the state. I am starting to think that you may be from Madurai, in which case your conflict of interest could be showing. - Sitush (talk) 15:11, 4 July 2011 (UTC).
 * Out of 32 districts in the state, there is only one Professional Emp. off and one Highcourt bench outside madurai. Wasifwasif (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * We both need to stop now as we are edit warring on various things. I do appreciate that your command of English may not be 100% (my command of Indian languages is 0%, so you're better than me there), but your recent changes are actually making the maintenance tag more justified rather than less. - Sitush (talk) 15:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

IMO, the highcourt bench is notable, but not the employment and passport offices. The court is notable, because it is very rare for indian states to have more than one high court bench (its one of 30 HC benches that exist in India). Employment offices are present in every fair sized city in TN - all district employment offices serves professional graduates (through internet connectivity), not just the PEEOs in madurai and chennai alone. And three other cities in TN have passport offices - Coimbatore, Trichy and Chennai. So to summarize - high court bench yes, but not the other ones. --Sodabottle (talk) 15:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Fine by me. This rather illustrates the point I have made a few times before here: you have to write articles with the population of the world in mind, not just India. Leave the HC and mention how unusual this is; bin the passport and employment offices. I cannot do it as I am at 3RR. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Me too ok. Wasifwasif (talk) 17:28, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Gniranjank, 14 July 2011
In this article, it is being stated that Coimbatore is the second largest city and Madurai is the third largest city in Tamil Nadu. But based on the sources from your website, the area of Madurai is 109 sq km and that of Coimbatore is 105 sq km. Therefore it would be better if Madurai is changed to "the second largest city in the state of Tamil Nadu".

Gniranjank (talk) 06:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Here the size of the city is determined by population and not area. Trichy has an area of 147 sq.km which makes it bigger than the two cities you mentioned but still it's the fourth largest in TN. -- Commander (Ping Me) 06:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

My recent revert
I have reverted yet another change from third- to second-largest city. I know that this may in fact become the case but the url provided was cited as being the official Corporation website and yet appears not to be. My reasoning for it appearing not to be are: 1. it would not open 2. there was no domain name, only an IP address 3. the first directory down from the root IP address was "newmducorp", which when couple with [1] and [2] suggests that at best it is a draft/test site.

When/if that IP gets mapped to an official Madurai Corporation domain name then we might be ok but until then it looks plain wrong to me. - Sitush (talk) 23:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Even Corporation link will not hold good. This is transition period. A decade ago, Madurai was second largest in TamilNadu. So a lot of websites will tell Madurai as second largest. But during last decade, Coimbatore population grew rapidly and became second largest. To support this, we have population figures from official census and area figures from prominent newspaper. We should be able to derive conclusion from these two. We know how frequently the government websites are updated. The history pages of Corporations and Districts websites were created decades ago and they still contain the same old data. I don't think they will update the pages for another couple of years. Even some of the tour websites say Madurai is second largest.

Two decades ago, Bangalore was smaller than Chennai. But due to growth of IT, Bangalore population is more now. Still some of the older websites show Chennai as bigger city. These are outdated and cannot be referenced. Wikipedia should contain latest data - Boss2boss (talk) 03:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Gadeena provides a spurious reason. the "german website" merely presents data from the official 2001 census. Even by 2001 official census population figures, Madurai is third largest not second largest. As Boss2Boss points out above, the corporation/district websites (especially their "about" or "profile" pages) are hopeless outdated.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * By every parameter, Coimbatore is the second largest and Madurai comes next. Here is a comparison to put this issue to rest once and for all.


 * Additonal sources - --Sodabottle (talk) 05:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent work, Sodabottle. - Sitush (talk) 06:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Good job Soda. As usual you excel in census related data. Wasifwasif (talk) 16:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Good job! Coimbatore's UA population was more that that of Madurai in 1991 itself. Madurai (city) had a population of 0.94 million in 1991. But after that there has been a steady decline in the population of Madurai. -- Commander (Ping Me) 12:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Demographics
The population table in the demographics section is mostly uncited. I am also uncertain whether the growth always represents a natural increase in population or has been affected by boundary changes. Can anyone resolve this issue? - Sitush (talk) 09:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Get in touch with sodabottle. he is good in census and population data. Wasifwasif (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

An inhabitant of Madurai is known as a Maduraiite -- Well if some local newspaper puts like this, how this can be generalized.. this gives a bad opening to the paragraph.. i want this to be removed.. any challengers?

Other languages spoken are Sourashtra, Urdu and English--- Well ... I can agree with Sourashtra only and many people know English .. including urdu here is too trivial... frankly speaking, someone want to include their community here.. should this misrepresentation be allowed ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karthikeyan.pandian (talk • contribs) 07:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Architecture
hi Sitush ,

You have reverted my following contribution citing GOOD FAITH ''According to the legends, Brahma is said to have born out of Lotus.The Vishwakarma architects who have built the temple should have used lotus, from which brahma is born, to symbolize the creative prowess of the tamilnadu temple architects. Some of these rectangular streets are named after months in the Tamil calendar. The six major rectangular streets around Meenakshi temple are Chittirai, Aadi, Aavani Moola, Maasi, Maarat and Veli streets.The street that surrounds the temple sanctum but inside the tower is called 'aadi veethi' which translates into English as 'aadi street'. The next ones in sequence are 'chitirai veethi', 'avani moola veethi ' , 'maasi vethi'. ''

Let me explain the points

1. Brahma is said to have born out of lotus can be found in the Wikipedia article about Brahma itself .. nevertheless, any book about Hinduism will tell you this.

2. Vishwakarma or Sthapati are people who have built the temple .. when a temple is built its not the ruler who builds it but the Sthapati's or viswakarmas

3. Brahma is the god of creation in hinduism...

4. The rectangular streets are named after tamil months ... how come this can be deleted on good faith

5. The rest of the explanation i have given are true. I was brought up near the temple for 20 years and i know it first hand. Hope wikipedia gives credit to personal knowledge too rather than relying only on Citations..if you have doubt please check out google map regarding the architecture of the streets ..

regards, Karthikeyan.pandian (talk) 04:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To be honest, it made little sense to me but I'll analyse it as best I can:


 * "According to the legends, Brahma is said to have born out of Lotus" - this is weaseling. It needs to be more specific, with a reliable source. We cannot rely on what another article in Wikipedia may say.
 * "The Vishwakarma architects who have built the temple should have used lotus" - says who? It reads as if this is your own opinion, which is contrary to our policy regarding neutral point of view.
 * "Some of these rectangular streets are named after months in the Tamil calendar" - what months? What streets? Why? Who says so?
 * "The street that surrounds the temple sanctum but inside the tower is called 'aadi veethi' which translates into English as 'aadi street'. The next ones in sequence are 'chitirai veethi" - this looks to be a little repetitive but it is difficult to be sure


 * Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not give credit to personal knowledge. Please read about verfiability. Finally, as I said in my (truncated) edit summary, your contribution had the appearance on relying on primary sources and we already have far too much unsourced information in this article, per my message above, without adding more to it. Let's get the existing stuff sourced or removed before we start down this road (forgive the pun). - Sitush (talk) 06:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "According to the legends, Brahma is said to have born out of Lotus" - this is weaseling. It needs to be more specific, with a reliable source. We cannot rely on what another article in Wikipedia may say.

--> --> Citations is : http://hinduism.about.com/od/godsgoddesses/p/brahma.htm


 * "The Vishwakarma architects who have built the temple should have used lotus" - says who? It reads as if this is your own opinion, which is contrary to our policy regarding neutral point of view.

--> --> in those days the stapathis's were vishwakarma's .. its they who build temples ... i am ok with "The architects who have built the temple should have used lotus".... The temple is based on lotus shape.. anyone who visits this or peeps into the shape using google earth will know .. also there is a 'porthamarai kulam' (golden lotus pond) which is golden lotus right at the centre of the temple


 * "Some of these rectangular streets are named after months in the Tamil calendar" - what months? What streets? Why? Who says so?

-- Dude .... you cant question everything until you know it .. yet i will provide citation

http://www.indiatravelnext.com/madurai/

also peep into this map. you can underwstand by yourself if you know tamil month names http://g.co/maps/rsknm


 * "The street that surrounds the temple sanctum but inside the tower is called 'aadi veethi' which translates into English as 'aadi street'. The next ones in sequence are 'chitirai veethi" - this looks to be a little repetitive but it is difficult to be sure

the above two citations explains it all...

With the change of omission of viswakarma ( which i am sure but no citations i can find in net yet : i gues your edit can be reverted .. please feel free to discuss for further clarifications ...

Karthikeyan.pandian (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Some of what you respond with may be ok but some definitely is not. For example, about.com is not a reliable source and using GEarth in the way that you suggest is tantamount to synthesis. Indeed, the entire paragraph, comprising a multitude of different sources as you suggest, may fall foul of the same problem if not carefully worded. I'll wait for some input from other experienced contributors - I am sure that something can be knocked together between us. - Sitush (talk) 11:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

ok ..if one part of the statement is not in agreement it doesnt discard entire para.. atleast i ma going ahead and adding infos about streets.. that one is not a synthesis but 'in front of the eye' 'as is'  information  ... regarding lotus and brahma and architects, i can wait for some one to arbitrate this ... but how long should be the wait ? 07:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karthikeyan.pandian (talk) 07:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have removed it again. This is partly because there is no deadline and partly because it is repetitive: your sentence more or less repeated the preceding sentence, which is also unsourced. I'll see if I can figure a way to merge the two some time today, if no-one else comes forward with an opinion. - Sitush (talk) 09:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well .... the content has no deadline butitsnot necessary to waitfor YOUR free time .... i can too wait but for someone as a goodwill but it the botleneck continues then i have toaks for Arbitration — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karthikeyan.pandian (talk • contribs) 04:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * WP:Consensus describes the basic procedures. It is evident from the activity on this article and its talk page that there are people who contribute fairly regularly. A little time for some other input will not cause any great issues: the point you wish to introduce may well be valid etc but it would need some reworking. I'll have a further think about it myself when I am able. The issues of repetition and of sourcing are valid concerns. - Sitush (talk) 00:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Clean up
I tagged a lot of statements back in June as they were either uncited or required clarification. I don't think a single one of those tagged issues has been resolved in the interval, although there have been plenty of (often pointless) other contributions.

This type of article is not particularly easy for me to source and so I am giving due warning: if any of the tags remain here in October then I propose to remove them & their related statements. This article is a mess and we need to get a grip on it. I was quite ruthless back then and will be again this time. Similarly, the number of images just makes the article look cluttered, so some of those may go also. - Sitush (talk) 09:43, 16 September 2011 (UTC)