Talk:Mae West/Archive 1

Update the pic?
Doesn't anyone have a more Mae-West-ish pic than this one? Mae West was known for a specific look that she cultivated til her dying day. This one makes her look like some anonymous little flapper from the 30s. The iconic figure of Mae West was one of an hour-glass figure, big showy hats, and that sly grin that said "Come up and see me, sometime." Anyone have one of those? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.210.153 (talk) 17:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I concur. SRL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.250.8 (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you have any FREE LICENSED &/or OUT OF COPYRIGHT photos of Mae West not yet on Wikimedia, please do contribute copies of them! Thanks, -- Infrogmation (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sex worker?
I have removed a tag listing this article in the sex-workers group. A quick check of the portal shows that merely producing risque quips don't qualify one as a "sex worker". Likewise, sex symbols are NOT automatically included among categories "sex workers". Conversely, NONE of the WP discussion pages for Theda Bara, Clara Bow, Clark Gable, Jean Harlow, Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield, Raquel Welch, Harrison Ford, Angelina Jolie, and Brad Pitt are labeled with the sex-worker tag.

Although the tag is highly inappropriate for West, I acknowledge that she seems to have worked almost tirelessly at sex. Just not as an occupation. ;-) Jmacwiki (talk) 01:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Dick Cavett was a talk show
You're wrong, 209.124.222.37. I saw it. Cavett, who did a talk show, had her on for a special one person only interview. During the course of it, he asked her to sing. She looked around and said, "Will they allow it?" He assured her they would. She got up and sang a number, then grabbed her tits in her hands. FredR 14:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Dick Cavett
It was a TV special and YES, it was an interview and YES she did do musical numbers also! Cavett interviewed her and she was not told what he would ask her. She performed all this very well indeed. I saw this show and this show is what generated the excitement that led to Sextette.

Burlesque
Some sources allege that West performed in burlesque, but Miss West always denied this and there is absolutely no proof what-so-ever that she did so. NO she NEVER appeared in burlesque REGARDLESS of what some so-called "critics" would like to believe. There is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF of this WHAT-SO-EVER!(172.167.192.224 14 Mar 2006)

Updated Birth Year
All right, let's discuss it and not clutter the "encyclopedic" article with erroneous and irrelevant gossipy chatter. Regardless of so called research done by some databank, what Paul said or some lady said, West was born in 1893 as documented on the 1900 census, which DOES NOT imply that she was born in 1892 when it states straight out that she was born in August 1893, the 1910 census, the Social Security Death Index and the California State Death Index.

On the 1900 census, which specifically recorded the month and year people were born, when Mary was a child of 6 years old and her parents would have no reason to lie and make her birth a year later, it was recorded as 1893:


 * 1900 Kings County, New York, Federal Census, New York City, Borough of Brooklyn, 137 Consely East Street, Ward of City: 15, Enumerated June 9, Enumeration District 216, Sheet 17 B, Page 37 B,


 * Line 81,


 * John West, Head, White, Male, Nov., 1865, 35, Married, 11 years, born: NY, father born: NY, mother born: Ireland, Occupation: Policeman, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes, Can Speak English: Yes, Rented, House.


 * Tillie West, Wife, White, Female, Dec., 1870, Married, 11 years, born: Germany, father born: Germany, mother born: Germany, Immigration: 1882, Years in U.S.: 18, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes, Can Speak English: Yes.


 * Mary J. West, Daughter, White, Female, Aug., 1893, 6, Single, NY, NY, Germany, At School, Mons. in School: 10, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes.


 * Mildred K. West, Daughter, White, Female, Dec., 1898, 1, Single, NY, NY, Germany.


 * John E. West, Son, White, Male, Feb., 1900, 3/12 (3 months old), Single, NY, NY, Germany.

As Mae West turned 6 years of age in August 1899, and was therefore 6 years of age on June 9, 1900, the day the census was enumerated, she would turn 7 in August 1900.

On the 1910 census, it states that Mary was 17:


 * 1910 Kings County, New York, Federal Census, Brooklyn Borough, City of New York, 421 Stanhope Street, Ward of City: 27 (Part of) Tract AA-11 (Part of), Enumerated April 26, Enumeration District 861, Sheet 16 B, Page 123 B,


 * Line 86,


 * John West, Head, Male, White, 44, Married 1 (time), 21 years, born: NY, father born: NY, mother born: NY, Language Spoken: English, Occupation: Detective, Where Employed: Detective Agency, Employer, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes, Rented, House.


 * Matilda West, Wife, Female, White, Married 1, 21 years, born: NY, father born: Germany (Native Language) German, mother born: Germany (Native Language) German, Language Spoken: English, Occupation: None, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes.


 * Mary J. West, Daughter, Female, White, 17, Single, NY, NY, NY, Language Spoken: English, Occupation: Actress, Where Employed: Vaudeville, Worker, No. Months Unemployed: 0, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes.


 * Mildred West, Daughter, Female, White, 11, Single, NY, NY, NY, Language Spoken: English, None, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes, Attending School: Yes.


 * John West, Jr. [sic], Son, Male, White, 10, Single, NY, NY, NY, Language Spoken: English, None, Can Read: Yes, Can Write: Yes, Attending School: Yes.

Now, let's see, 1910 - 17 = 1893.

I haven't viewed the information on the 1911 marriage record, but I think it's irrelevant rather or not she fibbed and told the marriage bureau in Milwaukee that she was 19, if that was the age she actually gave. Maybe that was the minimum age a young woman had to be to get married in Wisconsin without her parent's permission. Big deal.

If other people later knew better, and made it their business to claim she was actually born earlier, it's funny that her death certificate recorded her birth year as 1893:


 * Social Security Death Index, Mae West, b. 17 Aug 1893, Soc. Sec. No. 568-12-5001, Issued CA, d. Nov 1980, Last Residence 90004 (Los Angeles, Los Angeles Co., CA).


 * California State Death Index, Mae West, b. 8-17-1893, Mo.'s Maiden: Doelger, Female, b. NY, d. Los Angeles Co. (19), d. 11-22-1980, Soc. Sec. No. 568-12-5001, 87 yrs.

These things are better documentation than what somebody said. In conclusion, get over the 1892 bullshit. She was born in 1893.

FredR 15:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Sgt. Pepper
Was there a cardboard cutout of Mae West on the cover of the Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.--128.111.97.167 20:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

What does this mean? There is a reproduction of a photo. Most likely, cardboard was NOT in the chain of repro materials before it went onto the cover, just because that would be unnecessary and make a poorer image on the cover. And it's not like Sgt.P. needed any low-budget tricks! Jmacwiki (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Quotes
What happened to the quotes on the Mae West page? She's one of the most famous "quotable" names in Hollywood yet they are gone!! (206.124.200.174 12 Jan 2006)


 * To the extent they can be sourced accurately it would be good to have a few but she's often been misquoted. Here are some links:    --Mathew5000 20:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * At least "Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" should be here... Thue | talk 21:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * According to one online reference she did not say that... or at least not until the 1978 film Sextette. It would be interesting to know the true origin of the "or are you just happy to see me" line &mdash; presumably it was around long before 1978. --Mathew5000 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * How disapointing. I came to this article to look up some quotes.

I know that if you google search mae west quotations, there is an author quote page that lists a hundred or so. I'll post a link next time I do editing stuff. This is just her encyclopedia biography...not really the same as Bartlett's. Resonanteye 15:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the following quote is by F.E. Smith and has been misattributed to Mae West: "[To the question, "Are you trying to show contempt for this court?]: "I'm trying to hide it." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.63.135 (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The line might not be original, but she used it, or something very close, in "My Little Chickadee". PhGustaf (talk) 03:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. The cynical style reminds me much more of her interactions with Lloyd Nolan in Every Day's a Holiday. Jmacwiki (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of My Little Chickadee, has anyone actually heard Mae West say in the film, "Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" All the reputable sources I've read--including Ramona Curry's Too Much of a Good Thing: Mae West as Cultural Icon (1996)--maintain that West never said this on film until Sextette (1998). And yet, according to Wikipedia, she said this line in My Little Chickadee. I think this claim should be removed from Wikipedia.Jim Deutsch (talk) 18:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Jmacwiki (talk) 07:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Strongly concur about quotability. FWIW, http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mae_West has some -- but, as you point out, they are not always accurate (even on that page). That page does, however, accord with my own memory: She gives the famous "gun" line in She Done Him Wrong (1932) -- her FIRST starring role, not her last.

I find it bizarre that this discussion is even occurring, though: If there is some uncertainty, why not simply watch the movies? That's where most of the famous quotes come from -- or rather, that's where they are most authoritatively found now. (Not everything is posted on the net yet, waiting for Google to find it!) In the case of She Done Him Wrong, there is a good chance that anything noteworthy from there was first uttered within the predecessor play, Diamond Lil.
 * Mae West did not give the famous "gun" line in She Done Him Wrong or in My Little Chickadee. — Walloon (talk) 15:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Jmacwiki (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC) Hmm. Well, the burden of proof is obviously on me (or anyone else who thinks otherwise), since you certainly can't be asked to prove a negative!

I added a couple more quotes, mostly because I agree with the opening complaint of this sections: We have virtually no quotes here, and West is one of the most quotable names in Hollywood. Caveat: Stylistically, I felt the text required a ref. for the "Too much" line, and I don't wish to use Weasel words (to make it literally true, but empty). I think the quote comes from Angel, but if you know better, edit away! BTW, http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mae_west.html gives a large number of her quotes, sometimes in a couple of different forms. They all appear to be correctly attributed to her, but there are no ref's to specific movies, books, or other original sources. Jmacwiki (talk) 07:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that the ULTRA famous line about the "gun in your pocket" is from one of Miss Wests stage play and enough should be said about that. It was recorded in her last movie "Sextette" for all time. It is definitely the most quoted and copied line in movie history! No line can compare to this because it has been quoted and copied UPTEEN numbers of times in many movies, etc. It is time to stop the discussion. It WAS and IS Mae's creation and the most widely quoted line in movie history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.42.180.30 (talk) 06:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No one here doubts that it is hers! The only question has been, which place(s) did she utter it?  Whether it is "the most quoted and copied line in movie history" is a believable assertion, but I do not know of any published research to back that up. Jmacwiki (talk) 15:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Time of birth?
Is it really important exactly what time she was born? I find out that she was born at 10:30pm before I even know who she is. The cart is before the horse so to say. "Mae West had blue hair, and yellow eyes, and was born in Kentucky at ....oh and by the way she was an actor also". Cacophony 20:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC) She was born in 1893 and the U.S. Census records PROVE it BEYOND ANY DOUBT! ENOUGH SAID so let it REST!

Updated Birth Date
She was born in 1893 and the US Census records PROVE this beyond any doubt. This is an established fact and proves once and for all that she was absolutely truthful about her age, so enough is said about this so let it rest!

Birth
Miss West was born in 1893 in QUEENS, New York (not Brooklyn) and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT about this according to US Census records so enough has been said about this.

The Signature Joke
To FredR - Look, its not my joke, its Mae West's joke. If you don't think her "tittie joke" is funny and should be hidden away, fine. I'm sure Mae West would be embarrassed by her joke and want it hidden away too. Yeah, right. If everybody agrees with you, then so be it. I put it there cause I thought it was funny, but I don't demand that it stay there. I just would very much like that any one who does edit it at least understand that there's a joke there, which you obviously do, so I will let somebody else weigh in on it before I say anything more. PAR 16:37, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Structure
This bio. would benefit from some headings, to break up the long description. Any volunteers? (Richard Allen 10 Jul 2005)

1893
It was 1893. Census records, CA State Death Index and Social Security Death Index. FredR 19:15, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Birth
When was she actually born, in 1892 or 1893???? (Fpga 17 Aug 2004)

All these references to her birth. The census of 1900 and the census of 1910 don't lie. She was born in 1893, without question.

Italics
Nice addition, FredR, well done. But could we have italicized titles again please? --KF 21:31, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

advert tag
I'm going to dispose of the slavering that caused it to be placed there, if possible. Mae West is inspiring, and her life should be treated seriously enough and soberly enough to be a featured biography articel at some point. "It's not the men in my life I worry about. It's the life in my men." Resonanteye 21:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a whole lot of hacking out the words "tremendously successful" as redundant- if it did well critically or financially, it says so. I also moved the content about her "youthful", "young", "youth appearance" down to the section about her later years. Let her accomplishments come first, perhaps? and then let that reference be made in comments about her age, and her lack of aging, all in the same place. Also I took out several references to gay cult following of her, but made sure to put in wikilinks that work to her advocacy of gay and transgender rights, since this was a very important cause and motivation for some of her work. and now, I am done. I hope it helped some, I'd like it if this page was up to par, since she's one of my favorite writers and actresses... "I wrote the story myself. It's all about a girl who lost her reputation but never missed it." Resonanteye 22:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Webster's dictionary
Is Mae West really the only actor to have an entry in the Webster's dictionary (as the anonymous edit claims)? - Mike Rosoft 08:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yes...she is the ONLY actor/actress to be featured in the Webster's dictionary for certain. It is a matter of record and easily proved.

Wrong. Look up 'Garbo' in Webster's and see what you get.


 * There hasn't been any single dictionary just called "Webster's" in over a century. If mentioning it, please mention which Webster's and which edition. -- Infrogmation (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Age at Marriage
If Mae was born in August 1893, as the article rightly states, then how could she have been 18 when she married Frank Wallace in April 1911? She was, of course, 17 and I have amended the article accordingly. Miss West herself stated that she had to give her age as 18 (even though she was only 17) because of the law. What is the big deal about this? This has been done repeatedly by so many!

Las Vegas show
Jmacwiki (talk) 17:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC) I removed references to members of the audience at her L.V. show, since there doesn't seem to be any connection to West herself or to her legacy, role in society, or whatever.

I did keep the mention of Mansfield there, since her involvement with Mickey Hargitay (producing Mariska, FWIW) provides a hint about West's personality: She would tolerate no interference with her persona and no competition. If anything, the current article would be strengthened (less fan-like) if this were point were discussed more fully. I don't have any ref's. at my fingertips, but one chapter title from her "auto"-biography, "It's Mine, All Mine", sums it up pretty well. (She is referring to ownership of the Diamond Lil name and character.)

If we should say more about the L.V. show, IMO it should cover sketches, production, or other facets. Example of such a facet, though for one of her plays ("Catherine", I think): It began as a shell, an excuse to put herself in front of audiences once more. Over the course of touring off-Broadway, West incorporated not only refinements of the story but even accidental events and quips that fit. By the time it hit B'way, it was apparently pretty good.

Goin' to Town popularity?
Jmacwiki (talk) 20:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC) What is the source of the assertion that "many" people regard GtT as their favorite? The form of the statement matches weasel words. I'd cut some slack on that if I saw (or knew of) any hint of backing for the assertion, beyond the literal truth of any weasel-worded statement. ("Many" = "3 or more", and it's almost certainly true that 3 or more people regard GtT as their favorite. But that's uninformative as well as unsourced.)

Picture from Zztp
Good picture, Zztp. Can you say anything about it for context? E.g., part of publicity releases for one of the movies? which one? (Certainly not Annie, whose mention is it placed next to.) Jmacwiki (talk) 05:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Klondike Annie controversy
If this movie is regarded (by some critics) are her "masterpiece", and if it is controversial, why is there less written about it here than any other movie she made? Surely, either of those conditions alone would justify more than a meager two lines. Jmacwiki (talk) 05:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This is verified in the book "Come Up And See Me Sometime." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.42.180.30 (talk) 06:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Then edit the section to insert that reference (fleshed out).  Otherwise, it's just another unsourced comment that sounds like fan material. Jmacwiki (talk) 15:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No Drag
When you click on 'The Drag' in the article, you get no information about the play; rather it is about a street in Austin, Texas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.181.171 (talk) 23:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Sections with fannish zeal
The "Later career" and "Final years" sections look like they were written for a Mae West fansite, not an encyclopedia. Both could use an NPOV rewrite and some citations. --Noclevername (talk) 04:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Category Junk
Mae West was many things, but there are some inappropriate categories listed.

1. Listing West as an "erotic dancer" needs some justification, including within the article itself. Other than performing a notable "shimmy" at the beginning of her career, she isn't known for this, and the article doesn't mention any other instances. In that case, she is no more an erotic dancer than Elvis Presley or Liza Minelli, maybe less so than Marlee Matlin now -- none of whom are listed as erotic dancers.


 * Removed. Jmacwiki (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

2. "Nymphomania" redirects to hypersexuality, which states, "The consensus among those who consider this a disorder is that the threshold is met when the behavior causes distress or impaired social functioning." Even the first line of the article uses the description "debilitating". West's sexual activity did not and was not. Like other sex symbols of popular culture (e.g., Clara Bow, and you can probably think of some others), West was promiscuous and had a huge libido. But they chose an industry and a role where those are NOT debilitating.

No distress and no impairment means no nymphomania. Listing her there needs support, especially a clinical diagnosis, or it needs to be removed. Jmacwiki (talk) 16:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed. Jmacwiki (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed again, for exactly the same reason. (In addition, the category "nymphomanics" is anachronistic, and the link should go directly to 'hypersexuality'). Jmacwiki (talk) 16:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)