Talk:Mafia/Archive 1

Term "Mafia"

 * It's used to refer to the Sicilian mob, ;)until the international media began using it to refer to all criminal organization in Italy, as well as Italian and British immigrant based-criminal organizations in North America and Australia. Today it's often used to refer to any criminal organization in the world, such as the "Russian mafia", "English mafia", "Chinese mafia", "Albanian mafia", etc.  I argue that it's more accurate to refer to these organizations as "mobs", as "Mafia" is the Sicilian mob.  Someone has already redirected the page 'Irish Mafia' to 'Irish mob'.  I'd suggest others do the same thing for the other alleged "mafia" groups, but I'm not well versed enough to do so.  I do know, however, that it's less accurate to use terminology such as "British mafia", "Albanian Mafia", "Dixie Mafia", "Pashtun Mafia", and "Russian Mafia" when "Mafia" (a Sicilian word) refers to the Sicilian mob; terminology such as "Albanian mob", "Dixie mob", "Pashtun mob", and "Russian mob" is more precise. They own cops And people

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus in support of move.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 22:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Mafia (disambiguation) → — Mafia was recently moved to Sicilian Mafia but the issue of what to do with the Mafia page was not settled. Also see Talk:Sicilian Mafia for the previous move discussion. —  AjaxSmack   02:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You have also posted a message there saying discuss it here! Make yr mind up please. Johnbod (talk) 02:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just tried to clarify what I meant above. I was referring users to the previous move discussion at Talk:Sicilian Mafia.  —   AjaxSmack   03:02, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Redirect to here Johnbod (talk) 03:06, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of the redirects that went to Mafia have been redirected by bot to the Sicilian Mafia page, to redirect only 'Mafia' here would be hollow indeed- the damage is done and it is too late salvage anything. The first move was a huge mistake and there nothing else to be had here. Therefore I oppose this move, place a hatnote on the Sicilian page instead. Outback the koala (talk) 03:13, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Support as the American Mafia is a very prominent if not primary target, and I don't think that we'd get support to redirect there... 76.66.193.224 (talk) 04:04, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The problem is caused by the move from Mafia to Sicilian Mafia by incompetent admins who think they know better than the scientific community. Sicilian Mafia should be moved back to Mafia and place a hatnote on the Sicilian page instead. We should certainly not start stacking mistake on mistake. - DonCalo (talk) 08:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Leaving aside the admins. I believe wikipedia must have an article titled Mafia which would explain what the Mafia is. Neither American Mafia (just a Mafia mother-organisation's branch in the U.S., nor Sicilian Mafia (the mother organisation, but there's no need to add "Sicilian") have reason to exist without a main article titled Mafia. Pay attention: Mafia is not Yakuza or Russian mafia, or Chinese mafia, or Drangheta, nor Camorra; all of them are Mafia-type criminal organisation. The Mafia has a well-defined history, and we can't call it anyway but Mafia. I think of course Sicilian Mafia is not an encyclopedic name, that's seems to be the reason of this fuzzy nomenclature is coming out.--Theirrulez (talk) 21:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose as Sicilion Mafia should be moved to Mafia instead. Sicilian Mafia discusses mafia in general and not only the Italian mafia. Karry145 (talk) 15:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

List of every known criminal organization on earth
I tagged this DAB for cleanup. This is a MOS:DAB not List of every known criminal organization on earth, pls do NOT just list crime syndicates! --Hutcher (talk) 18:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

OMG, even word mafia which is originally italian word, they want to attribute this bad word with arab and Islam, that is not true , mayhias means happy not criminal or the way it was explained in this Falsipedia not wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.137.236 (talk) 05:59, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Perjorative slang
The page mentions 'MAFFIA' as a perjorative slang temr for a UK gov't organization; I've heard something similar about the RIAA/MPAA (MAFIAA). Does that belong on the page? KingAlanI (talk) 18:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

""
The usage of is under discussion, see talk: Sicilian Mafia -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Mazzini
Is there any relationship with Giuseppe Mazzini: "Mazzini Autorizza Furti Incendi Avvelenamenti"? --41.150.197.184 (talk) 00:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Kurzon
I have added British, American and Italian pronounciations of the word Mafia. I cannot see why this contribute is making the article worse. It is an Italian word used in English, and English pronounciation is different from Italian (the "a" is read in another way, and the "i" is not a vowel but a consonant). In a lot of other articles the same system is used. If you would explain what is wrong in adding such a piece of information I could understand where I am being wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.120.159 (talk) 20:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's superfluous. So what if there are different pronunciations in other languages?  Wikipedia is not a language dictionary.  Most of our readers can't even understand that phonetic script.Kurzon (talk) 02:30, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok... "It's superfluous." So, the fact that "on your opinion" something is superfluous makes the article worse? "So what if there are different pronunciations in other languages?" This is an Italian word, I did not even want to add English pronounciations, but as in most of other articles about words of foreign origin the original pronounciation of the word is added. "Wikipedia is not a language dictionary." Tell all users, both registered and unregistered, who have been adding pronounciations in other pages so far as I did. "Most of our readers can't even understand that phonetic script." See above. Now: I have tried with kindness, but kindness did not work at all. Let me remember you that you have been blocked twice already, both the first and the second time for edit-warring, and you have been warned again just a few months ago (quoting Fortdj33: "Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made."). My question is: do you want to be blocked once again? Because, if I report your behaviour to administrators, that is what is going to happen. And you know. You have two choices: either you stop behaving like a "mafioso" on the page "mafia" as if that page was yours ("Cosa Nostra" = "Our Thing"), or you shall be first warned and then blocked again by administrators. And, if you have not understand it yet, reporting you is the first thing I am going to do just when I see my edits have been reverted by you again. I hope I have been clear enough, bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.105.23 (talk) 07:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Your belligerence will not get you anywhere. One of the cardinal rules of Wikipedia is to assume good faith.  Calling me a "mafioso" just because I reverted a silly edit does not make you look good.Kurzon (talk) 08:32, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring "Your belligerence will not get you anywhere." Your rhetorical art will not get you anywhere, it is useless you mistify reality to persuade Arbitrarily0 you are right and a good boy and I am the bad wolf. "One of the cardinal rules of Wikipedia is to assume good faith." So I suppose I should assume good faith when a pluri-editwarrer poly-blocked keeps reverting my correct edits, the same edits that have been made to articles such as "Pizza", right? "Calling me a "mafioso" just because I reverted a silly edit does not make you look good." Tsk tsk tsk, I did not call you "mafioso", I said that your behaviour is like that and you should stop it, and the fact you had already been warned and blocked in the past means I am not wrong about that. At least I see that you have finally stopped reverting my edits, now let's wait for administrators to take a decision (which I think I already know), bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.11.124 (talk) 09:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Am I even talking to the same person? Your IP keeps changing.Kurzon (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you do; and yes, it does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.97.40 (talk) 11:56, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

La Eme is NOT a mafia
Uh, the Mexican Mafia just has that name, but it's not really a mafia, it's more along the lines of a street gang; it's actually a street gang in prison. It nowhere classifies as a 'mafia'. The Mexican drug cartels are closer to a Mexican mafia(Los Zetas, for example), if anything. Please, somebody remove this or replace it with something else. It's misguiding. Also, in case you were wondering, even though the Los Zetas has a paramilitary wing, that's ok, the Serbian mafia had Arkan's Tigers and the Albanian mafia had the Kosovo Liberation Army, so it's not unusual for a large and powerful criminal organization to have a militarized wing sometimes throughout it's history of existence.
 * You know, you're free to do this yourself. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.Kurzon (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Italian pronunciation
Is there any reason not to add the orignal Italian pronunciation of the word "Mafia" as it was done in a lot of other articles about words borrowed from Italy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lysxim (talk • contribs)
 * About time we had some discussion on this rather than the mindless edit warring! &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I am the IP user who wrote in this page about two months ago. I obviously agree with the insertion of the Italian IPA. I inserted also the English (Br+Am) IPAs, but I do not think it is necessary any longer. The Italian IPA can be inserted not at the beginning but in the section Etymology (The word "mafia" ([ˈmaːfja]) originated in Sicily). Could this be a possible solution? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.102.97 (talk • contribs)
 * Since there's an etymology section, that's probably a better place to put it than the lede. I don't see any reason not to include it. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 22:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 151.20: are you the same or different person to Lysxim above? Given the apparent contentiousness of this issue, it might be a good idea to wait a few more days to see if anyone else cares about this. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I am obviously a different person. Ok for waiting a few more days.
 * Putting it in the Etymology section looks acceptable. BaronBifford (talk) 11:48, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I have added this to the etymology section, as proposed above. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Gaetano Mosca
It says here that the term "mafia" comes from an 1863 play by Gaetano Mosca, but the Gaetano Mosca who is the subject of the linked article was born in 1858, making it unlikely that he could have written the play. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.40.149 (talk) 20:07, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * According to both the Italian Wikipedia page on the play in question, and http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_264.html, the play was written by Gaspare Mosca, not Gaetano Mosca. I've changed the article accordingly.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.97.40.149 (talk) 20:10, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2015
110.116.102.213 (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ". Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a change.

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2016
hells angels is a Motorcycle Corporation. in the article about the hells angels the word mafia can not be found. "As of December 2013, the Hells Angels sells its branded merchandise at a retail store in Toronto, Canada." "See also Motorcycling River Run Riot"

Deinemvata (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 01:24, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Maha
First, don't call me a vandal because I've looked this word up. My friends tell me that "maha" does indeed mean "oryx". They also tell me it is a common women's name, and also a compliment for women with beautiful, large, almond-shaped eyes ("eyon al-maha" means "eyes of the oryx"). Perhaps it is a root of "mafiusa".

Personally, I trust more in the authority of a linguist or at least somehow who speaks fluent Arabic rather than a Western historian. BaronBifford (talk) 19:54, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing the issue on the Talk page. Frankly, what you trust or not trust is not relevant. What is relevant are reliable sources, which you chose to delete. I can add a half dozen more, if you like. What you were doing comes close to WP:NOR. What is Arabic today, is not necessarily what was Arabic a millenium ago, let alone the different types of Arabic in various regions. I sincerely hope that you understand my point: these are reliable sources from different academics you cannot simply ignore. Whether they are wrong needs to be backed by equally reliable sources; and those can be added to the article, without deleting the properly referenced information. Thanks and happy editing ... - DonCalo (talk) 20:47, 4 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think Gambetta's work is a reliable source for this specific matter. He lists maha as a possible root in the appendix of his book; he did not consider the etymology of mafia to be important to his study.  Gambetta does not speak Arabic and is not a linguist.  He cites a 1959 book by Novacco as his source, who in turn cites an 1881 paper by a certain "V. Piola" as his source.  I cannot find this paper anywhere on the Web.  With the utmost respect to Prof Gambetta, this feels rather dubious, and I think it would be wise to consult a linguist schooled in early Arabic. I have already offered several links to online dictionaries that translate maha to "oryx", not "cave".  It will be rather hard for me to find a book that explicitly says that maha never meant "cave", because this isn't a popular misconception; I would really have to ask a linguist to give a professional opinion, but I wonder if you would accept that. BaronBifford (talk) 17:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not only Gambetta is mentioning maha as a possible root, Professor Henner Hess did so as well. I suggest you read WP:NOR carefully. - DonCalo (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If I searched hard enough, I bet I could find a learned professor who thinks jet fuel can melt steel beams. BaronBifford (talk) 20:54, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay, I contacted John McHugo, who is a British linguist who studies Arabic. This is the email he sent me regarding maha:


 * I'm afraid there are two types of "h" in Arabic,and the distinction between long and short vowels is crucial in Arabic, although not indicated in English - so "maha" could be several different Arabic words.


 * Looking at my Wehr's Dictionary of Modern Literary Arabic, maha (long vowel at the end) can mean a wild cow. If you use a different type of "h", there is a verb which basically means "to efface", but I can't find much more. There is no reference to caves, but then I do not have a good medieval dictionary to hand.


 * There are other problems; Wehr would not have obscure medieval meanings, Arabic has a larger vocabulary than English, and "ma-" is the first syllable of every Arabic passive participle. So the possible variations are almost endless. Then there is the old joke that every Arabic word has four meanings: something obscene, something to do with a camel, its main meaning and its opposite (Arabic has a special category of words that carry opposite meanings. They are known as addaad).


 * There are certainly Arabic loanwords in Sicilian dialect. Watching an episode of Inspector Montalbano once, I was struck to hear the word miskeen, which is Arabic for destitute or unfortunate - and seemed to be used to describe a pervert.


 * It's perfectly possible that mafia comes from an Arabic root, but I'm afraid I have no knowledge of  what it might be, and am not prepared to hazard a guess. Sorry I can help you no fiuther.


 * This is the best I can do. I strongly doubt I could find a book that explicitly refutes Gambetta's assumption that maha means "cave", because this is not a popular misconception that a linguist would think to address.  What more can I do to convince you? I know what the rules of Wikipedia are, but I care for factual accuracy above all and I think I've put in the work to get it. BaronBifford (talk) 21:24, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Put in the work to get what? That a range of scholars studying the Mafia are wrong? For your convenience I added another source. I fear, however, that you will consider this academic to be yet another nutty scholar who failed to consult the scientific mastermind BaronBifford before he published his research. - DonCalo (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Asshole. BaronBifford (talk) 05:31, 6 July 2016 (UTC)


 * OK, I found another linguist, who graciously offered her expertise to me:


 * The Arabic word "maha" is actually a plural feminine proper noun - the singular is "mahaat". Original meaning refereed to "oryx" or "cow", but crucially with a white spot on forehead and wide beautiful eyes. Because these were not native animals, the term was used figuratively to refer to a beautiful woman - hence the compliment "the eyes of maha".


 * ''The best explanation about possible link between Arabic and the word "mafia" can be found in the link below:
 * http://umich.edu/~themafia/etymology.htm'' BaronBifford (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * That does not change anything. Your link quotes the same source I used which gave as one of the possible roots as maha. You contradict yourself. If you do not change your attitude you leave me no other choice to report you for disruptive editing. - DonCalo (talk) 21:40, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You are one of the most intellectually lazy editors on Wikipedia. BaronBifford (talk) 04:40, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know that we are supposed to respect the opinions of qualified experts. The trouble is academics often disagree, so a Wikipedian must be able to think critically in order to choose whose facts to include.  Diego Gambetta and Henner Hess are sociologists, not linguists.  Neither of them considered the etymology of "mafia" to be important to their research, so they didn't put much effort into double-checking the possible roots they listed.  Gambetta put "maha" in the appendix of his book, along with 17 other possibilities, some of which he acknowledged were ludicrous.  Obviously he doesn't want you to take his word for it.  What I have done is turn to qualified academics who are actually specialized in the study of the language of Arabic: John McHugo and Alaa Elgbibali.  I am not being arrogant.  This does not come from me.  This is not my stupid opinion.  Do you expect me to quote something from a book proving that "maha" never meant "cave" in archaic Arabic?  That's going to be very, very hard for me to do.  There aren't exactly many medieval Arabic dictionaries out there.  I don't even speak Arabic! BaronBifford (talk) 07:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Once again, what you are doing is violating WP:NOR. Two e-mails of linguists do not provide a reliable source and cannot be considered a serious study. The e-mail of McHugo clearly states that he did not really look into the issue, but gave an initial assessment. That is neither a reliable source nor a serious study. And even if it was that should be added to the etymology and not be a reason to delete the section completely. Wikipedia is supposed to provide the existing knowledge on an issue. Whether this is right or wrong is not WP's duty to decide. I have the feeling you don't want to understand the purpose and objectives of Wikipedia. I have provided three academic references that discuss the etymology, which have been summarized in the section, you have provided two e-mails with opinions not based on an actual study of the issue and used this to completely delete the section. I don't want to start an edit war. I have taken the initiative to seriously discuss the issue here on the talk page, but I think we are at a deadlock and we reached the stage of asking a third opinion. - DonCalo (talk) 07:00, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * So here you're critiquing my sources, but you won't do the same to your sources? What hypocrisy.  Take a firm look at Gambetta and Hess.  They're not linguists, they didn't put much effort into verifying maha.  My sources have more expertise and put more effort. BaronBifford (talk) 07:37, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I am not critiquing your sources, I am critiquing the way you handle them. I wonder if you have their consent to use their private responses in a public discussion. Please show that they agree with you using their responses here. Frankly, stating that a short e-mail conversation is putting more effort in the issue than three academics publishing peer reviewed studies is rather ridiculous. Let's see what a third opinion has to offer - DonCalo (talk) 07:48, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * All Gambetta did was quote a 1959 book. These linguists actually pulled out their dictionaries and made a personal effort to break down the meaning of maha. BaronBifford (talk) 07:54, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Third Opinion Request I'm responding to a request placed at the third opinion noticeboard. As such, my views don't carry more weight than those of another editor, and the process as a whole is non-binding. Having reviewed this dispute, it appears to me that BaronBifford has given enough reason to reexamine this issue, and necessitate digging through the sources once again. However, we cannot change the article based on say-so alone; at the end of the day, a reliable source is an absolute necessity for contentious information. WP:VNT is now deprecated, but I would strongly suggest that BaronBifford read it, and understand what it's trying to say. Even personal emails from supposed experts is actually insufficient in and of itself, although they do suggest that further digging is required. Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your opinion. I hope this will convince BaronBifford to restore the etymology section. As you rightly say the point is not whether it is true, but whether it offers the existing knowledge on the issue. Even the references do not make assumptions whether it is true or not, they just explain the existing possible roots for the word Mafia. If there is a reliable source that doubts the root maha, that should be added to the text, not be a reason to delete everything. - DonCalo (talk) 10:44, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I did not delete the Etymology section I just moved it to the bottom of the article (because it's not really an important matter anyway). I also feel skeptical about including dubious information.  There is just way too much myth surrounding the mafia.  BaronBifford (talk) 11:41, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Proving that maha never meant "cave" is going to be very difficult. Modern Arabic dictionaries translate it to "wild cow" or "oryx". If maha is an archaic word for "cave", then I will have to trudge through medieval Arabic dictionaries, and even the absence of proof there would not rule out the possibility. Maha could have been exclusive to the local dialect in Islamic Sicily (even today Arabic is a notoriously fragmented language). Gambetta references an 1881 paper as his source for his inclusion of maha in this list. I don't know how I'm going to dig up this very obscure piece of text. BaronBifford (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * BaronBifford, I don't particularly want to get into a long argument here; but you shouldn't try to "disprove" something by digging into its antecedents, because that is not typically going to be productive; even if you find some internal error, if it's a mainstream reliable source, we have to give it due weight. What you should do is to find a reliable, secondary source that states that maha means "oryx" or "cow." Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I can point you to Arabic dictionaries that don't translate maha to "cave". If you then ask me to then look into medieval dialects, as DonCalo told me to, you'd be shifting the goalposts.  This effort is doubly hard because neither Gambetta nor Hess listed the word in its original Arabic script, but a romanization.


 * Frankly, I'm all for removing the Arabic roots from the Etymology section. I don't like information that even these eminent scholars doubt and didn't bother to research. BaronBifford (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


 * https://books.google.be/books?id=WTak55pG-_IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=arabic+dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV0d6M7fLNAhUJrxoKHWOWC1sQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=maha&f=false
 * No mention of "cave" here. BaronBifford (talk) 11:32, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no mention of cow, or Oryx, either. Which illustrates why the etymology section needs to be based on secondary sources discussing the mafia, not random dictionaries which might be discussing a different dialect, or a different period, or a different word itself. Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You're asking me to prove a negative. I will have to open EVERY Arabic dictionary in the world to prove this, otherwise you'll just say "well, check another book then". BaronBifford (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Your assertion is ridiculous. If I'm tracing the origin of the word mafia to maha, that is the province of a linguist, not a sociologist.  In the books this article references &mdash; Hess, Gambetta, Colucco &mdash; none of the authors know for certain what maha means because they don't speak Arabic.  They instead referenced earlier papers from the 1880s, which I can't find anywhere online or in a library.  And you want me to give "due weight" to this?  Take a serious look at the source material, you jobsworth! BaronBifford (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You have misinterpreted what I have said. I'm not asking you to prove anything. We have here reliable secondary sources suggesting one etymological origin for "mafia." To change this, you need to find at least one reliable, secondary source which provides a different etymological origin. You have yet to do so. You don't have to open a single Arabic dictionary. Additionally, I came here to offer a third opinion, not get embroiled in a lengthy dispute. Therefore, I am removing this page from my watchlist. If the dispute persists, I would suggest opening an RfC, or posting at WP:DRN. Oh, and making personal comments about another editor will not help your case. Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:48, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

All right. I'll link as many dictionaries as I can. If I can give you at least three different dictionaries that don't support the maha=cave interpretation, would you accept my position? BaronBifford (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * No, you need to provide a reliable source discussing the issue. If not, you violate WP:NOR and moreover, as we discussed ad nauseam above, just quoting a couple of contemporary dictionaries do not provide any evidence about the root of a word that might go back some ten centuries. - DonCalo (talk) 19:52, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Some further research confirms maha as a possible root for mafia, with a more precise etymolgy. According to Giuseppe Guido Lo Schiavo (it), "cave" in Arabic literary writing is Maqtaa hagiar, while in popular Arabic it is pronounced as Mahias hagiar and then "from Maqtaa (Mahias) = mafia, that is cave, hence the name (ma)qotai, quarrymen, stone-cutters, that is, mafia." (Loschiavo 1962: 27-30). See: Fabrizio Fioretti (2011), Il termine "mafia". - DonCalo (talk) 12:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Excellent work! This gives me a new lead to investigate.  I'll get back to you. BaronBifford (talk) 13:35, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Etymology
There is a long (three-paragraph) section about the development of the mafia in 19th century USA.

I don't think it should be in the etymology section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Gabriel Sforza (talk • contribs) 13:07, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

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i think that this articile is one of the worst of the whole Wikipedia! this is noth an articol about Mafia, but is a collection of stereotypes and mithologies about Mafia, that are totally invented, unreal and completed not accepted from the historians. Mafia wasn't a gang coming form XV century, but was a gang comin' out in the XIX century. The Organized Crime didn't exists before, and just to the 70's no one talk about it except in Usa. not sure in Sicily! and at the end there is a list of movies, where for a large part the movie are about Jew Mafia! terrifiant and really bad article. and more, Cosa Nostra is a word comin' from Usa! not from Italy, where no one heard it just to the 70's. Cosa Nostra is the name of American Mafia! samoano

The recent change claiming that the Mafia is "a secret society that evolved from Italian Organized Crime in the early 15th century on Sicily to overthrow spanish rule," is again an example that this article is full of pseudo science. All serious historians have already dismissed the myth that the Mafia evolved in the early 15th century to overthrow Spanish rule, but it keeps coming back. Moreover, the Mafia did not evolve from "Italian Organized Crime" – it evolved from social-economical and political circumstances in the 19th century in Sicily. "Organized Crime" did not exist at this time period. The concept of “Organized Crime” only developed in the 20th century in the United States in a modern industrial society, while the Mafia evolved in a archaic semi-feudal society. Mafia Expert 12:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There are so many errors and misconceptions on this page that I dont have time to fix up myself. First off, the extinct thuggee (wiped out by the british in the 19th century) was a cult not a mafia, no racketeering related activities were ever conducted by the cult. Additionally, the italian mafia is no longer, and has not been for quite some time, the most powerful criminal organization in the United States. A NY Times article from earlier this spring chronicles the decline of the italian mafia to criminal organizations from eastern europe, principally albania and russia. There are many more issues, perhaps someone can clean this article up. Young Skillz

I agree. This page sometimes is more about Mafia myths than reality. Unfortunately, looking at the history, valuable attempts to give a more accurate account of the Mafia are constantly deleted. Mafia Expert 21:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Everytime I write about the etymology of the word mafia, somebody deletes it. Why is this not relevant in the context? (My source is Cosa Nostra by John Dickie)

I read a bit of that book. I'll have to reread it this summer.MafiaCapo 01:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Because you are placing the discussion of etymology at the top of the article, where it does not belong.69.63.62.226 00:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Arguably, etymology explains everything, and therefore does deserve to be the capo - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mafia#Etymology_of_the_term below. We need to get it right, tho. Etaonsh 15:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"Recently the former prime minister Giulio Andreotti (Democrazia Cristiana) has been judicially accused of relationships with Mafia, but was finally discharged."

1. When was "recently"?

2. What is meant by "discharged'?

S.


 * I suppose it means acquitted. He was actually acquitted because of expiration of statutory terms, the court recognized he had a close relationship with the mafia that bordered with membership. Orzetto 19:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The main article should not be divided into two by the presence of two obscure stubs, so I've moved the island of Mafia stub to the top.. Also, I don't think there is a need at all for a stub on an obscure PC game that was never very popular... we aren't in the practice of making stubs for every mediocre work of art that comes out. kwertii

We aren't in the practice of determining popularity. (anon)

No, but it's perfectly acceptable to comment on it or to judge whether something is popular enough to merit inclusion in an encyclopedia -- Derek Ross


 * Does anyone have anything to say about the PC game called "Mafia" (beyond the fact that it existed)? Has anyone here ever played that game? Anyone even heard of it? There are hundreds of thousands of obscure video games, and the vast majority of them are not significant enough to warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia. It just clutters up the page. kwertii


 * I agree -- Derek Ross 00:01 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

Independent Sicily
What was Cosa Nostra's role in Salvatore Giuliano's attempts for an independent Sicily? -- Error 00:34, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * It resulted in Sicily having a special charter that grants some independence from the mainland. Among other things, national laws have to be confirmed by the local parliament to be valid in Sicily, and the regional administration is the only one in Italy with a "parliament", all others have just a council. The administration is basically insanely corrupt, inefficient and any stereotype you can throw at it, they are worse than that. The administration (and all the money and jobs it handles) is a great power tool. The typical example is paying expenses to parliamentarians to attend a conference on reproduction of coleoptera in Maldives (2 hours of presentation, and one week of transfer of course!), I remember this specific example from a few years ago. Orzetto 19:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why was this moved from Mafia to Italian Mafia? It was just fine at Mafia... Kwertii 22:27, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Since there's been no explanation as to why it was moved, and I see no real disambiguative advantage to having "Italian Mafia" as opposed to just "Mafia", I'm moving it back. "Italian Mafia" is redundant". Kwertii 07:27, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Smoewhere, I had read something about "Muerta alla Francia Italia appelle" (sanity?) - "Death to the French is Italy's call" (or something). Is this something which has been fabricated to fit the name?

Are there not any sources for mafia standing for Morte Alla Francia Italia Anelia (Italian for 'Death To the French Is Italy’s Cry')? I never heared of this. Further, what has Sicilian organised crime to do with France? Besides, Sicily is very autonomous region, it sees itself not as a part of Italy.

chicago photos
there is a- Brianboru

i think someone needs to re update this page

References to Turks/Arabs
An anon user has changed the article. It now says that the Arabs/Turks have occupied Sicily, not the Sspaniards. Please fact check this and revert if you deem it necessary. I don't feel up to that. Lady Tenar 20:34, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Everyone's occupied Sicily at some point. Sea Peoples, Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians (actually Phoenician themselves), Romans, Visigoths, Arabs (Moors, mostly), Turks, Norman French (actually Vikings), French, and most recently the British, French and Americans again.  However, other than the Visigoths I don't know remember any Spaniards. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 21:00, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The Spanish occupied Sicily in the 1500's under Philip II until the War of Spanish Succession in which it was transferred to Savoy. The Spanish later regained control of Sicily briefly during the War of Polish Succession in 1735. 209.213.71.78 18:06, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

If, as ExplorerCDT states above, the Allies have occupied Sicily (as opposed to liberating her) we need to know about it. It would, after all, explain why the Mafia retains credibility among its adherents. Etaonsh 09:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

2 New york police
Funny statement:- Pasquale D'Amuro of the FBI's New York office said the pair "were not two good cops who went bad. It seems clear they were two bad guys who somehow became cops."

article contradicts itself
First, the article gives the origin of the Mafia as being a group in the Middle Ages formed for protection from Turks and Normans. Then, under "Origin and History", it says the Middle Ages origin is false. This is insane.

This anonymous comment seems to have resulted in the removal/alteration of the "Origin and History" referred to. Surely it would be truer to reflect the fact that original intentions become confused and overtaken by outright criminality? Etaonsh 08:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

As stated countless times in books written about the Sicilian Mafia since the Maxi trial of the 80's, there was never a 'good' mafia which became a 'bad' mafia - It originated in the MID-19TH CENTURY, not the 15th Century, as an illegal organization. I have edited this countless times, but the buffoon who initially wrote this article insists on deleting the facts and inserting his/her own rose-tinted view of the Mafia. The neutrality of this article, as well as it's factual accuracy, is extremely suspect to say the least.

Possible Copyright Violation or Vandalism ?
It seems the text following the See Also section is a free term paper copied directly from www.123student.com/5231.htm as well as on similar websites. I can't seem to find who added this however. 209.213.71.78 19:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have removed this, but htere is useful information tht shoudl be verified and incorporated. Rich Farmbrough 08:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree however as the text is copied word for word from a copyrighted source it is clearly a case of copyright violation. If the author or website were to grant permission to add this to the article then by all means it would make a welcome addition. 209.213.71.78 17:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Godfather
I removed the "Godfather" description as is same position as a "Don" as a Capo Crimani. 152.163.100.138 04:39, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

non-professional air
This first-person section, though informative, is not in a style suitable for an encyclopedia:

"I, myself, was a son of one of the most infamous mafiosos in the United States. During these family wars, my mother would take my little brother and I into a secret room in our basement, and then join my father upstairs. It was a way of life for us and we had no idea that any other type of life even existed."

Request: please write articles about Mafia activity in each country listed
This would make for interesting reading and transform that section into something other than a rather tedious list of countries. Lupin 13:25, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent Revamp
Phew, well i've finished my overhaul of this article - I hope you find it informative. I have removed nothing big, except for the erroneous theory of the origin of the Mafia during Medieval times. The Mafia structure and modus operandi as they are today were developed during the 19th century, not the 15th century. For more on this see my reference (no one has referenced anything on this page!) to John Dickie's books at the end of the article. A resistance organisation may well have existed 500 years ago, but it would be unrecognisable and historically unlinkable to the Mafia we see today.

Other than that major change I have just cleaned things up a bit. I moved Mafia in America to just under Mafia in Italy as that seemed like a more logical order. I also added a new section for 'Other Criminal Organisations in Italy' to reflect the fact that this article focuses on the Mafia - that is, the original Sicilian Mafia in Italy and the US. I also altered the etymology to reflect the Palermo dialect viewpoint, which is most important, a bit better,

I added some more details on famous Sicilian Mafiosi. The bit about Provenzano visiting a medical clinic in the south of France was in The London Times last year, although someone else with an online subscription to The Times can reference that for me :) I also added Brusca's real nickname - lo scannacristiani as Dickie outlines in his book, A History of the Sicilian Mafia, and added a redirect to the existing page on Brusca.

The current Italian Mafia section is still a little too American-mafia centric for my liking, and overstates Lucky Lucianos role somewhat, so I added some recent developments re Riina and Provenzano etc and will add some more Sicily-centric viewpoints later. It needs more on the Corleonesi as they have dominated the Sicilian Mafia since the end of World War 2. Specifically more on Luciano Leggio as the original Corleonesi Boss of Bosses, and how the Corleonesi rose to power again later with Toto Riina and Provenzano.

The US Mafia section needs more on the Moustache Petes and Maranzano etc. How Maranzano set out to overthrow the old guard moustache petes, to unify the leadership from Joe "The Boss" Masseria during the 1920s. Maranzano was then overthrown by his lieutenant Lucky Luciano who established the Five Families and the Commission etc etc and did away with the title capo di tutti capi in America (in theory). Someone else can do this though as the information is very much part of pop culture and a bit boring for me.

More needs to be said about the hero Falcone in the Law Enforcement Section.

As I mentioned in the references John Dickie's book is a veritable goldmine of information on the subject of the Sicilian Mafia, as well as its links to the US Mafia based around New York.

Thanks!

82.35.34.24 02:34, 7 August 2005 (UTC) 82.35.34.24

Freemans Mafia?
Where is the source for this? The only place I could find with a Google search was this page.

The source for this is the contraction of antique catalan term "ma filla" (my daughter). Alledgely coined after many kidnappings were performed by Almogavars, the catalan pirate raiders who terrorised southern Italy population in early XIV century. Sicilian land owners employed the term to define an feodal secret organization they stablished to prevent and punish their foes exactions. They surely have had enough of paying ransoms and bear humilliations trying to rescue their kidnapped relatives, i.e. "ma filla"...

The Freemans Mafia
Godfather Baldrick here! We are a non profit, non violence, yada yada, group (very small) that supports human rights. email me at thominalaska @ gmail. com (no spaces, hate spam). I wanted to put us on Wikipedia, because I plan to carry this pretty far, but I couldn't find a place to add new articles (which I can understand why), so I settled for putting us under Mafia.

Hey! I'm Ol' Jack from the Freemans Mafia! I noticed that Baldrick forgot to put a link. Here you go! http://arenatherpg.proboards61.com/index.cgi

The Sicilian Mafia and the MVSN
I removed the portion of the article that had "reader's note" in it, as well as the bit that had "(what the crackers?)". What it was talking about was the crackdown on the Mafia by Cesare Mori during the Fascist regime in Italy, and I've added a brief mention of that. There are a couple of sources on the Web (that look like they've just slurped a previous Wikipedia article or something similar) that say something like:

It has been said that in reality, the most important leaders of the Sicilian Mafia were enrolled in the MVSN, the fascist Militia, and only low-level suspects were charged in Mori's campaign, mainly for propaganda purposes. However, others claim that this version is nothing but US propaganda trying to relativize the cooperation of the United States government and the Mafia during World War II. (source: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Mafia)

Given the circumstances, I didn't feel comfortable in describing a possible connection between the Mafia and the MVSN ("Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale") as I know nothing about it. So it would be good if someone with a bit more knowledge (or time for research) on the subject could add something about that. --Popefelix 23:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Lucky Macronese
Who is that? The Boss of Bosses position didn't exist anymore I thought.67.184.87.86

Good point, I did a Google search on "Lucky Macronese" and couldn't find any references that didn't originate with Wikipedia. Either the information is bogus or the guy is so powerful that everyone is afraid to even mention his name!

Original Research
Aside from the WWII information and criminal admissions, the bulk of this article appears to be based on original research, as well as Hollywood and TV portrayals.

It resembles elaborate conspiracy theory mythology.

Please find better sources for the information in this article, and explicitly cite them. Thank you.

Surely an unsigned Wikipedia edit like yours above is the definitive worst, most opinionated source possible. This is why I wonder why Wiki article edits are unsigned, and Talk Page ones are - making the latter better sourced. Etaonsh 14:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the comment above about this article (as do many of the "mafia" articles) resembling a Hollywood portrayal. Even if were based on real life with someone having experience and exposure to New York City would be a substantial help. Are most of these authors from Kansas? Stevenmitchell 17:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What a charmingly uninformed comment, considering Kansas City, Missouri has a long and colorful history of mob influence, , List_of_famous_mafiosi_by_city, etc. Which is not to say that the article isn't awful in its own right... -- nae'blis (talk) 15:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed text
I removed this text, as it didn't seem to fit the flow of the article, was inserted in an inappropriate place, has no citations, and is probably vandalism:

One of the most prominent and notorious "mobsters" in modern day America, is an aspiring young billabuster named Joseph Andreotti, he has many chargers pressed against him, currently pending in court, ranging from minor theft to grand theft auto all the way to first degree murder. One of his more interesting accomplishments, is when he succesfully harnessed the power of the dormit town of Olympia, he first began his take over when he was a mere 12 years of age when he ran for mayor. From there he went straigh to the top.

Miscellaneous Requests
What is a "made man?" Is it synonymous with 'soldati'? Is this a term of art and, if so, could someone please incorporate its meaning into its first mention in the article? Thanks! Rorybowman 16:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Needs Update Regarding Aggressive Law Enforcement
This article needs further update regarding the status of the Mafia/La Cosa Nostra and the effects of aggressive FBI arrests and convictions of many high ranking mobsters. Several sites and television documentaries, including the National Geographic Channel's expose on the Mafia reported that the American Mafia has severely declined in power and all five families in disarray without an official boss. Not to mention the overwhelming competition from other ethnic criminal organizations that have supplanted the Mafia and their rackets, such as most recently in the news the Albanian Mafia that outmuscled one of the five family's rackets and territory.

Also, this article needs to clarify and distinguish Italians and Sicilians. On an A&E documentary profiling the rise and fall of John Gotti and basically the Gambino Mafia Family, one of the FBI agents reported that the majority of American Mafia/Cosa Nostra members are Sicilian such as Paul Castellano and Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano, whereas John Gotti and the fictional "Anthony Soprano" are Napolitan. Sicilians and Italians may be cousins, but they are not the same.

Also needs updating regarding popular Sicilian movement (inc. demonstrations) against the mafia and the election of anti-mafia mayor in Palermo. Etaonsh 16:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Altho any such updating could be misleading taking into account. Etaonsh 07:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge Cosa Nostra to Mafia
Cosa Nostra is no longer used only by mafiosi. It is now widely used by the media (certainly the Italian media) as a synonym. PizzaMargherita 07:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the articles should be kept separate; La Cosa Nostra may be a term used for the Mafia, but it has its own history, quirks and usage information. DevanJedi 02:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge. Cosa Nostra is nothing but a synonym for Mafia. --Ezeu 02:35, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge, seconded. It can be related. TommyBoy76 20:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)TommyBoy76

I support the merge... the articles basically hold the same content. Grant 20:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I like the merge idea as well. The usage information on Cosa Nostra can have its own section on the new page.

Other countries
Is it OK to include references to other countries mafia like i n Australia and England.

Looking forward to contributing on this article and in sports. Sportsfanz 15:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

England has a different history from Sicily. Obviously there are similarities, such as the legend of outlaws as the glamourised 'good guys' up against corrupt, vicious and alien francophone government in 'Robin Hood.' But the idea of a single, official (from the criminal perspective), on-going criminal organisation seems like a contradiction in terms, altho, again, it arguably happens, almost inevitably, in real terms on a regional/local basis. In the absence of an actual, acknowledged, nationwide equivalent of the Mafia, the term is used to mean either the Italianate organisation, or loosely to mean organised crime and/or corrupt, nepotistic government/mismanagement. This difference in usage makes it hard to understand the Italian mafia from an English-speaking perspective. I.e., why would anyone, however criminal, have any interest in semi-officially identifying themselves as such? Anglo-Saxon rationale is, relatedly, uncomfortable with the confusion between a criminal brotherhood and a national resistance movement - unless, of course, it's a foreign one we're talking about - in which case it serves to confirm xenophobic prejudices. Etaonsh 09:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Werewolf (game) has already been merged. I believe Are You a Werewolf? should be merged as well. Savidan 13:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe you're in the wrong article, but you've probably figured that out by now...~

WikiProject
Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadMax (talk &bull; contribs) 2005-11-18 14:01:18.

Jewish mafia
To put Jewish mafia at the head of the list when there's no cite nor Wikipedia article is surely a POV. I put it at the end of the list. Perhaps someone should delete it.

Arguably, national mafias should be listed in order of national wealth/influence. No-one expects to be asked to delete the Jewish mafia. Etaonsh 14:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The termininlogy and anything pertaining to it!
Orzetto speaks the truth 82.35.34.24 03:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The translation of La Costa Nostra' is currently at "our thing"; however, earlier the translation was "this thing of ours" which, while not a literal translation, seems to be more appropriate to me. I argue this because la=the and, in English, we would never say "the our thing", which is why I think it was originally written as "this thing of ours". Perhaps "the thing of ours" is a better translation. (anon)


 * In Italian, you use the definate article when you are indicating possession. (Usually. there are a few special cases.) i.e. to say, "my house" you would say "la mia casa" (which literally means, "the my house"); "my car" is "la mia macchina" etc. La Cosa Nostra literally means "our thing" in Italian. "This thing of ours" would be something along the lines of "Questa Cosa di Nostra". kwertii

And what would "the thing of ours" be? (anon)


 * "La Cosa di Nostra" -- Derek Ross


 * La cosa di noi, I guess.
 * I think that Cosa Nostra is the name of the Sicilian organization and Mafia the American one. Is that the usage? -- Error 00:34, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Mafiosi use "la cosa nostra" to mean "our stuff". It's just a handy way to indicate something that has no name inside the organization itself. The expression Cosa Nostra stuck in the media (lazy journalists) after being reported by Tommaso Buscetta and is now used to indicate the Italian mafia. Distinction between "this thing of ours" or "our thing" is just a triviality and it's not worth discussing. Anyway, it's literally "our thing", with the possessive "nostra" being postponed due to dialectal influence. Orzetto 19:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) (I'm Italian speaker)plus mafia was huge back in the day.


 * I think there is a big background mistake. Cosa Nostra (without articles) is one of the many italian criminal organizations referred as mafia. There are many others of these such as  'Ndrangheta or Camorra and the difference is which region they operate. Cosa Nostra operates in Sicily and is one of the biggest criminal organization in Europe, 'Ndrangheta has it's origins in Calabria (sorry, don't know the english translation... It's one of the italian's regions), Camorra started in Naples, Sacra Corona Unita born in Puglia. There is an interesting page here but it's written only in italian.
 * La cosa nostra seems very inappropriate because it is not the name of any italian mafia but is just an current italian expression that means Our thing. It is probably reported here because it is part of language that we're used to ascribe to mafiosi (mafia's peolple). However I think that this language is just a popular belief, originated by movies and television. However this is just a personal opinion. Dan.tux 11:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Unless I am mistaken, Cosa Nostra is, at one and the same time, more familiar than La Cosa Nostra, yet the semi-official title of the Sicilian mafia. Therefore it isn't necessarily 'a mistake' for outsiders not to be over-familiar. ;) Etaonsh 22:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

In the book The Valachi Papers, Joe Valachi himself makes it quite clear that the prevailing translation of La Cosa Nostra is this thing of ours and not our thing, since during the course of the book he used the former phrase about half a dozen times while he never used the latter even once. There is even a footnote at the bottom of one particular page in the book clearly identifying this thing of ours as the conventionally-used, if not necessarily esoterically correct, translation of the phrase.

Mafia prominence scarcely conveys skill at translation. 'The thing of ours,' surely? Etaonsh 22:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, fair enough, let's add it. Kwertii 21:58, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And now the Americans own everything:}--69.236.93.172 04:29, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

He told us the word isn't an acronym as stated elsewhere on this page, but originates from the arab word "Mafao". I'm not sure I remember correctly what the translation of it is but I seem to remember it means "Filth"....
 * I went on a Familiarisation trip to Sicily in 2004. The travel agency had provided us with a guide for 3 days, Giorgio, who came from Palermo. During the long bustrips over the island to the various sights (Agrigento, Taormina) he told us in great detail, amongst other things, about the Mafia....

The word "mafia" may originate from the Arab word "Maafiya" Which in literal translation would mean "pardon" however due to differences in usage the meaning of it would be "Exemption", the word "Maafiya" would be written "AL Maafiya" "the mafia" which would probably mean those who are exempted, or those who are pardoned. Now Being exempted from say taxes would be a plausible choice, however being pardoned for actions that could be seen as wrong and being above the law is also just as plausible.

According to a programme just shown on British TV the name 'mafia' comes from "ma fia", "my daughter". Is that incorrect? If not, it should be in the article. --bodnotbod 23:58, August 31, 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems incorrect. Garzanti Linguistica (a free italian online dictionary) reports that it may come from the arabic mahjas which means boasting, bragging 84.222.21.65 22:30, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The Mafia or Also The Maffia

Maffia may sound easier to pronounciate for a non-native italian speaker, but you would never hear an italian person pronounce it ['maffia] or even [ma'ffi:a]. The right pronounciation is ['mafia], and it is spelled Mafia.

Both Italian and English spelling are with an single F,but for example the Dutch translation writes double F due the pronouncuation. --E-Magination 08:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)E-Magination

In swedish it's written Maffia too. Btw, Bodnotbod wrote that he saw a TV show which stated that the word Mafia came from "Ma fia", I've read this too in a book which also took up all these other alternatives. The "Ma fia" theory was told by a mobster in sicily who explained that, during the years of french oppression, a girl was raped by the french and allegedly the mother ran through the streets screaming Ma fia! Ma fia!. I'm afraid I don't remember what the mobster was called. This might just be a tale... but it also explains why they got the (false) acronym explaination. Avanti Italia!--84.217.144.214 01:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Question
This may sound a little silly. but do you have to be an Italian to join the Mafia now a days? I know the Japanese are strict or not. I have heard two different storys on it.. And the russians dont care.. But I dont know about Italians, I know they were strict, I want to know if they have changed over time. MegaloManiac 17:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

It's Okay. every one don't answer at once now. MegaloManiac 13:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * To be a made man, you have to be 100% Italian. They check the books of every ancestor to see if you are or not. You can be this or that to do some dirty work, I guess you could say. But to be apart of a crew you have to be pure Italiano....erm last time I checked. I read the book "Wiseguys" by Nicholas Pileggi (basis for the movie Goodfellas), and I remember it saying the same thing. Please correct me if I am wrong, please. I am curious myself. =0) TommyBoy76 19:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)TommyBoy76

Damn I will never be in the family. I guess being an Associate wouldn't hurt.MegaloManiac 18:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

At the end of "mafia structure" it says (e.g. il wringe). What is that referring to? 138.16.15.179 22:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * il Wringe - An ex member or civillian who the mafia regard as a coward or in modern day terms a "wimp". Cheers. :-)TommyBoy76 00:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)TommyBoy76

With the shape the Mafia seems to be in I'd dare say they would take anyone. MafiaCapo 01:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Not someone who refuses to consider joining unless they apologise? Etaonsh 06:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, you must have Italian ancestory via your mother. I would think it next to impossible to increase the ranks of any organization depending solely on ethnic purity... Cobweb.

Removal of material
I removed quite a bit of what appeared to me to be creeping vandalism. I didn't research it all in detail, so I may have removed some valid text. If so, I apologize. — MediaMangler 18:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The Godfather: The Game
added a link to it's article - Star_9

The Mafia and Communism
I recently read an article here on the 'Talk' page in which an editor described removing content (quoted) alleging Allied-Mafia co-operation not only in the defeat of fascism, but in anti-communist activities. The removal he justified on grounds of lack of references, but how can one trust such an allegation in the context of pages which are being purged and altered with such ongoing alacrity, the Talk item itself having seemingly vanished? Also, the Mafia-communism connection is interesting and arguably not straightforward: but the removals have (prior to this, assuming this is still here!) closed the subject. Etaonsh 08:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of the term
I completely agree that an etymology is indispensable, so I added a new version. It also explains the use of the terms Mafia and Cosa Nostra. Mafia Expert 14:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Very well done. ;)

The 'ma filla!' explanation, on its own, seems implausible and glamourising. Dictionary.com provides a more straightforward etymology, indicating 'mafia' as a term similar in import to the modern, colloquial cockney 'front.' Other sources have said 'swagger'(colloquial). Etaonsh 10:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I now see an Arabic origin for the above etymology reported here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mafia#The_termininlogy_and_anything_pertaining_to_it.21, above - along with another, more plausible yet explanation via Arabic. But this surely belongs under the present, more specific header. Arabic 'exemption' sounds like some historical equivalent of diplomatic immunity, expanded to disguise insurrection, crime, revolution or whatever. Etaonsh 10:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Other explanations such as 'Muerta alla Francia Italia appelle' and 'Morte Alla Francia Italia Anelia' (assuming the Italian is good?) also seem good explanations. This doesn't necesarily imply a contradiction, but perhaps synchronicity. Etaonsh 21:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The acronym explanation is not accurate. The criminal connotation to the world mafia lies in the play "Il Mafiusu di Vicaria" from 1867..

There is a complaint at the top of the talk page here to the effect that entries on 'etymology' are repeatedly removed. The editor (implausibly?) replies that the reason was that it doesn't deserve to be the capo of the article. But given the 'maafiya/exemption/diplomatic immunity' explanation above, the etymology could, as in many other instances, only more so, in fact be key to understanding the history and origins of the subject in question. Etaonsh 10:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wtf: the followig both appear in the article: "This secret society was called Mafia after the Arabic word for refuge" "The word 'mafia' is the noun form of old Sicilian adjective "mafiusu" which has its roots in Arabic. Roughly translated it means "beautiful", but can also be translated as "cool"." just think that something should be done about that. -May 5.

'Wtf'? There is a view that etymology, contrary to popular indifference in the matter, is somehow key - explanatory. I can't help finding much food for thought, at the present time, in the knowledge that the name of the most subversive and enduring thorn in the flesh of the Western world 'has its roots in Arabic.' And so perhaps the correct etymology should be the capo of the article. Etaonsh 22:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Restored deleted content.
When checking through the history, I saw a section was blanked out, "The Mafia in Sicily". This was to be followed in the next edit (same user) with inserting random characters. The characters were then reverted but the section removed in the previous edit was never restored. I opened up an older version of the page and copied and pasted the section missing into the current article. PEACE, I'm OUTIE 5000 Wavy G 20:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Take it sleazy. CAT MAN! TommyBoy76 19:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)TommyBoy76
 * Meeeeeeow. Prrrrrrrrr.

Titles of mafiosi
I've only just got round to reading this article, and I think it is a pretty good effort (considering...). The only doubt I wish to raise is in relation to the titles, capo di tutti i capi etc. Have these been sourced at all? The should be. I raise it because it is almost inconceivable that the Sicilian mafia, or cosa nostra would use Italian words to describe these various titles, they would use the Sicilian terms, since most, if not all communications were in Sicilian (even amongst the American mafia). So there is clearly a credibility gap in showing these words in Italian. Salutamu! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  03:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

THE MAFIA IS STILL THE MOST POWERFUL ORGANIZED CRIME GROUP IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Yes, although LCA has been on a constant decline for some time, organized crime as a whole has been declining at an equal rate. So, the Mafia still remains on the top of what’s left of the American underworld. Yes, a few Soviet Mob organizations have rebelled against their control “tax” and have begun to operate independently. Of coarse there are very few on record in cities like New York. In THIS DECADE, The Rudaj organization of New York’s Albanian Mob was able to takeover LCA’S illegal gambling operations in the Asoria neighborhood of Queens, New York. But this was only one neighborhood, and this was only one Albanian organization. Altogether, the Rudaj Organization was supposed to amount to a “sixth family” of organized crime in N.Y.C, to which the other five are all LCA. So, even though they may be able to match each individule family they are not as powerful as the Bonanno family, the Colombo family, the Gambino family, the Genovese family, and the Lucchese family combined. And since we are measuring the power of each overall mob, and not that of each individual organization, than the Italians in New York are still on top. Alex Rudaj even stated that his primary ambition was to lead one of the first major New York criminal organizations that would be able to operate free of LCA influence. Sure, elsewhere in the country, the Italian Mob has been surpassed by other organizations, but because they have a piece of almost every major racket in New York and because of their major (if not distinctly dominant) role in Chicago’s organized crime community, the Ialians have remained the kings of the empire even though that empire is shrinking drastically. But, yes, the decline of the Italian mafia to criminal organizations from eastern europ has been enormous in other areas. But only if you jumbled all of them together into the “Soviet Mob”, would you be able to claim they are more powerful. If you separate each one by the nationally of the organization, like the Russian “Mafiya”, the Polish Mob and the Albanian Mob, as you should do, than the power is divided up as well and they are no longer superior to LCA. The Italian mob may not control the majority of the rackets in the U.S.A anymore, but they do control more than any other ethnic mob.

2003 earnings of Cosa Nostra
The figures given can't possibly be correct. They would make the Sicilian Mafia one of the largest businesses in the world (just outside the top 10, but more profitable than the likes of Walmart, Toyota, and AT&T), and, therefore, either every member must be making millions per year, or some at the top are multi-billionaires. It may be from an 'official source', but it's plainly nonsensical.

In fact, if you read the sources, the figure of 10 billion Euros cost to the Sicilian economy is given in a wider context; it does not claim that the Mafia are taking in that much, but that they cost the economy that much in outside investment.

Source 30 is nothing of the kind; it is an unreferenced newspaper article.

I'd remove the entire section, but maybe someone has some real information to add to it?

92.234.8.173 (talk) 03:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Josh

symbolism of Italian American organized crime
"you yell you tell you die" California US mafia uses dragon symbol with a thing that looks like the yen ¥ symbol; aside from a more central familial group which appears Italian as HIIII EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!! ME SAY I HI!!!

rumor has it I was once given, againt my preference, a "capo" designation with dragon aspect Much opposition on my part created a move to describe my perspective as a "visual appearance of a knot" Both knots as well as dragon sybols are common enough to be featured as restaurant themes I am actually a conscientious objector; After 10 months of mild refusal I gave the mafia another two months comprising a full year to decide to shun me Now I yell, tell, die, and proceed as conscience directs. I'm happy to shun them, if they return the favor the two or three main areas of "annoyance" are likely to fade: I have theories about new drugs that could affect perhaps half of their drug money, perhaps actually it might be a financial opportunity that decreases organized crime generally yet benefits first movers, part of organized crime used me as bait on another part of organized crime this creates the possibility of testimony sensitivities, Although I am very fond of the United States my own preference is to let a dead government die where it stands, there's not much to said to Officer "point is mute" or that officers judges, or the federal government of that officer; they are what they are.

common sybols used around California are varieties of "rock and a stick" with | being the mildest statement of division to "/." being some kind of active negativity Various nondragon persons are urged to believe they are like symbolic animals with each animal having a kind of utility

I think a truthful discussion of the Mafia's use of non Italian gang labor would benefit the article A list of practical tips on how to refuse the offer or part ways with the system would benefit readers

[] which is the new use of 24/7 wearable wireless online video plus audio appeared to get a "squelch reaction" it is worth a try as a way of urging moderation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.138.185 (talk) 23:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

origins of the mafia
The origins are in the Middle ages? Actually it has been speculated to go back to the roman trade guilds, mainly the grain guild, when heads of prominent households were responsible for maintaining order, mitigating disputes and managing their district. The original "men of honor". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.120.155 (talk) 03:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Not this again. Either name your source or leave it alone. Most evidence and research points to a mid 19th Century ori86.163.87.0 (talk) 01:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)gin, end of story.

Vandalism

 * "Union corruption - In the mid-20th century, the Mafia was reputed to have infiltrated many labor unions in the United States, notably the Teamsters, whose president Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and is widely rumored to have been killed by Matteo Bari, enforcer for the Mafia. In the 1980s, the United States federal government made a determined effort to remove Mafia influence from labor unions."

Matteo Bari is a made-up name or some obscure mobster that has never been implicated anywhere in the disappearance and presumed murder of Teamsters Union President James Riddle Hoffa. The suspects that have been identified over the years by the FBI and local Detroit law enforcement officials are Detroit Mafia capo Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone, Anthony "Tony Pro" Provenzano (a Genovese Crime Family capo in northern New Jersey), Salvatore Briguglio (a Genovese Family soldier), Thomas Andretta, and Stephen Andretta, the latter two associates of the Genovese Family. Other possibly suspects are Russell Bufalino, boss of the Mafia in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and Frank "The Irishman" Sheeran, a Hoffa aide who ran a union local in Wilmington, Delaware. All of the abovementioned suspects are dead besides Stephen Andretta. Lock &amp; Key 07:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Semantics
The person who wrote the 'FBI.GOV' section has not realised that the FBI is incorrect in calling Cosa Nostra 'La Cosa Nostra'.

''Maybe you should cite a source before correcting someone. The "La", in Italian, is very similar to the English word "the" or even "this". While literal translations don't often make sense, the loose translation of "La Cosa Nostra" is "this thing of ours", "the thing of ours", "our thing", or similar meanings. The presence of "La" in the name is still correct in the Italian language. Regardless of who added it or their reasons for doing so, it is correct either way. But like I said, if you actually have a source, list it, that's the point of the talk page.''

I am sorry, that is not correct. The original and proper wording in Italian or Sicilian was "cosa nostra",and was used as part of a broader sentence. The "la" was never used in Italian. It was used in the sence that this guy is belonging to "cosa nostra" -- our thing. And not he is "la cosa nostra".
 * Maybe so, but a source is still required, especially considering that in Italian the "la" would have actually been required in certain contexts.
 * As an Italian, I can testify I've never heard anyone say "La cosa nostra", it's always been "cosa nostra", without the article. Note that this due to the sometimes peculiar Sicilian way of speaking Italian: in "pure" Italian, we would say "La nostra cosa" to mean "our thing". --88.149.169.249 22:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

''Reguardless of the correct / incorrect nature of the information if the FBI call it something then they call it something. I believe that if it is good enough for the FBI it is good enough for wikipedia, if you can quote some offical Italian source, please do so. Arguing common usage is not enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnzoYug (talk • contribs) ''

I am an italian too. "La cosa nostra" is just wrong. If you want to keep Wikipedia with errors just because you are can't get rid of the "official source" paranoia, go right ahead. Walk all the way down from Valle d'Aosta to Sicily and ask any of the 58 million italians if "La cosa nostra" is right: you will have 58 million unofficial sources that will tell you that it's just "Cosa nostra". Every single book, article, newspaper, government report in Italy refers to the mafia as "Cosa nostra". If you believe it is correct just because the FBI says that's what it is called, maybe you should rewrite the articles regarding the status of US terrorist risk around 9/11 and quote the FBI too. You probably would have 290 million unofficial american sources that will tell you that it was not exactly correct.


 * The definite article could be Anglo-Saxon paranoia. After all, if there is only one Cosa Nostra, what's all the fighting about? --londheart 23:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

As an american, I've never heard anybody say "Eh, see!?" SonicNiGHT

Cosa Nostra is a Sicilian name, not an Italian one. In Sicilian the term La cosa nostra doesn't exist. In fact the article "La" exist in Italian language, but not in Sicilian. The Sicilian article for the Italian "La" is "A". So, if you want to write correctly you should write "A cosa nostra" or (better) just "Cosa Nostra". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.10.197.182 (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

A separate, more minor semantic issue
After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchism.

I'm aware that anarchy is often used as a synonym for chaos, but anarchism is a collection of political philosophies and this makes about as much sense as "Sicily had fallen to the brink of existentialism". Unless someone's aware of a massive social drive towards anarchism, I'm considering changing this for "chaos" or "collapse" for the sake of clarity.--81.155.164.40 11:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

FOR GOD SAKE DOES IT MATTER?????

I think the distinction is between anarchism (an ideology) and anarchy ("the breakdown of order following the collapse of a state"), so i would suggest After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchy.212.32.11.115 13:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Misconceptions
People often mistakenly assume that "power" within the organized crime world is associated with "violence." All organized crime groups inflict violence as a form of discipline, instill fear, and to establish a foothold on a racket, and yes, there are other ethnic organized crime groups in the United States that are much more violent, some criminal organizations have no rules and will target an individual's familiy as well as children. However, power within the American underworld has to meet at least three criteria to be considered a true "organized" criminal enterprise, which are: 1) violence or threat of violence to enforce, to protect, or to establish/infiltrate a racket, 2) political power, (including corruption of government and law enforcement officials) and 3) monopoly over a racket.

An example of the Mafia's monopoly is their control over traditional organized crime in New York & Chicago in the rackets of gambling, garment industry, trucking, labor racketeering, construction bid rigging, are all specialties of the La Cosa Nostra, with the knowledge and experience on efficiently operating these rackets. In contrast, other organized crime groups are heavily into narcotics, a racket mostly every crime group is involved in, but not controlled by any specific crime group, but are NOT able to establish or diversify into other rackets like the Mafia's traditional rackets because 1) it is controlled/monopolized by the Mafia and 2) other crime groups don't have the experience or in depth knowledge, not to mention not having the connections or the networks (including both political & associates) to establish, operate, and maintain these rackets. As an example the Russian Organized Crime Groups are said to be a very violent organized crime group, but not as well organized as the Italians.

In regards to corruption of government and/or law enforcement officials, today's Mafia may not be able to claim politicians as there "friends" as they have done in the past, or claim direct involvement in electing a President or appointing a federal judge. Today's Mafia have compromised most at the city and state level as in the current news of the convictions of the Mafia Cops, indictment of a retired FBI agent accused of working for the Mafia, and a judge allegedly working for the Mafia.

The Mafia or La Cosa Nostra epitomizes and perfected organized crime in the United States for over 50 years which a dead guy named Caleb Aaron Garduza use to lead and they were synonomous with "organized crime" in America. The success of the FBI investigations and prosecutions, along with other internal factors have weakened the Mafia. However the Five Families have not been dismantled. At their current state, it can be argued whether or not they are the most violent, most feared, or most powerful of all crime groups in the United States. The following cannot be ignored: The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra is still a very large organization with several networks with a vast resources/wealth, and unlike other crime groups, they are well entrenched within the American system in areas of business, industry, and politics; the Five Families of the New York Mafia continue to meet all the aboved mentioned criteria, more so than any other organized crime group in the United States today.

Selweynn Raab, author of the book "Five Families:" The Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of America's Most Powerful Mafia Empires" gives a glimpse of the Mafia today.

''________________ (addition by 666):

"the La Cosa Nostra" = The the our thing

Whatever your opinion is in the discusion above (cosa nostra vs. la cosa nostra), "the La Cosa Nostra" is definitely wrong. Same for "The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra" that appears later in the text. It makes about as much sense as "The La Bastille" or "The Das Boot." '' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.167.24 (talk)

Although it should be known that "la cosa nostra" is considered a name used primarly in the United States faction of the mafia. Since Luciano first advised the name to others it has been used instead of mafia or mob. Also, the Chicago families have never been known to use these descriptions but use "the outfit" to describe thier crews.75.46.60.20 18:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Anthony Richard

You have mentioned that "Consiglieres are lawyers or stock brokers" - what is this based upon? Paul Castellano and Tom Hagen? - Jim_786.

Etymology
This debate needs to be hashed out here, not within the article itself. It's obvious there's enouch confusion/legendary origins floating about that we need concrete, reliable sources and perhaps a draft copy here, rather than a back-and-forth edit war. I've reverted the last edit not because of factual errors (I don't have enough knowledge personally to say who's right), but because it excised a great deal of text and put things like "WRONG AGAIN" into the article text. Discuss. -- nae'blis (talk) 16:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

True - this does need some more reliable sourcing - the history seems a little truncated, to put it mildly - the source mafiastars seems hardly sufficient in terms of credibility. No connection seems to be made between the Sicilian Vespers uprising, let alone any over-arching relationship between Sicily's history of invasion, and a secretive protective society which emerged from that. To insinuate that the mafia spontaneously generated "in the mid-19th century as a means to protect lemon and orange groves" is ludicrous, and shows an ignorance of Sicily's history. It comes across as a pat answer provided by a sensationalistic source.

According to "mafiastars.com" the mafia originated in the 19th century, but many other sources point to a much older - more rural - origination, with heavy urbanization in the 19th century. Does urbanization = origination? Shouldn't the history go back as far as possible? Most sources seem to point to that rural protective society known as the mafia, and explicate that somehow in an urban context the mafia became more "outlaw", and more "criminal".

Here's what the source claims: "''The Sicilian Mafia as we know it, actually originated some time during the mid 19th Century. Industrialisation and trade of Italy were the main driving force behind the development of the Sicilian mafia. The Sicilian mafia has always been at the strongest in the west of Sicily, around the city of Palermo, which some people like to call the birthplace of Mafia. Palermo was the center of trade, commerce and politics for the island of Sicily, as opposed to the continental part of the island which was economically underdeveloped when compared to Palermo.

The main source of wealth of the island were the large estates of lemon and orange estates. In the bare begining, the Mafia served as a special kind of protection for the large orange and lemon estates arround Palermo. In its early days, even some members of the ruling aristocracy were the members of the mafia. Maybe the most important member back than was Baron Turrisi Colonna, a well known as a political protector of members of Mafia. This kind of relationship with the Government became characteristic for the Sicilan Mafia.''"mafiastars.com

Other sources tell a slighly more in-depth story: "''In the ninth century, Sicily was occupied by Arab forces. The native Sicilians were oppressed and took refuge in the surrounding hills. The Sicilians formed a secret society to unite the natives against the Arab and Norman invaders. This secret society was called Mafia after the Arabic word for refuge. The society's intentions were to create a sense of family based on ancestry and Sicilian heritage. In the 1700's, pictures of a black hand were distributed to the wealthy. This was an unspoken request for an amount of money in return for protection. If the money wasn't paid, the recipients could expect violence such as kidnappings, bombings, and murder. By the nineteenth century, this society grew larger and more criminally oriented. In 1876, Mafia Don Rafael Palizzolo, ran for political office in Sicily. He forced the voters to vote for him under gunpoint. After being elected into office, he promoted Mafia Don Crispi as Prime Minister. Together the two put Sicily under government control and funnelled government funds to the society known as the Mafia.''" http://users.aol.com/whizkid01/hist.html

All serious historians discard these kinds of pseudo-science. Instead of visiting unreliable websites try reading a book about the history of the mafia. The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia. And the theory above is inconsistent: why would 'native Sicilians' take an Arab word to name their secret society? Mafia Expert 19:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Mafia Expert: Doubful all serious historians discard these kinds of, as you say: "pseudo-science." History, as an academic discipline, is concerned with an ever explicated view of past events, in light of research, context, and interpretation. And to say "The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia" is as obtuse, and ultimately as inconclusive as saying "The pilgrims of the 1600's had nothing to do with the American Revolution," or "Magna Graecia had nothing to do with Rome." True, the etymological advancement of the word Mafia, is shrouded in nebula, and conjecture, but the historical aspect of this article, claiming that the mafia originated in the nineteenth century in Palermo is false. This article needs a more in depth history section. Consider the source. And further; consider the source of the source. Both sources above seem unreliable.

The main problem with the article, as it now stands, is the wording. Sure, the mafia, as it is now defined, emerged from the shadows; and as a word, onto the playwrites' Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca script pages. Sure, the proliferation within the urban surroundings of Palermo exponetially impacted the mafia's presence and power. But as the article reads, one would think that the mafia emerged from nothing - perhaps even sprouting from an orange or a lemon tree in the groves surrounding Palermo in the 19th century. Serious historians wouldn't put their name to such a feeble assertion. Serious historians would examine the context - the surroundings - the preceeding history - the origins of such an organization. The serious historian would ask; where did these men come from? Who hired them? Where did their tactics come from? How did they know how to protect these lemon groves - what made them experts in this field? The serious historian, would examine the history of Sicily, and find overarching themes, and find distinctive threads of cultural significance. The serious historian, I am sure, would find that the mafia originated from bands of highwaymen and theives. Disgruntled shepherds and farmers. Peasants banding together for protection or for profit. This article does nothing to treat that history, which is why, the article remains invalid. No history is truly "science" - history deals with a paradigm less clear and distinct than that. History deals with themes, with culture, with trends.

To the contributer who does not sign his contributions: I completely agree that the article is hopelesly short on the history of the Mafia. If you would look in the history of this article you would find valuable attempts to write a more explanatory history of the Mafia (without going back to the Sicilian Vespers or the Arab "occupation") but they were all deleted by Mafia buffs who saw their myths about te Mafia being destroyed. Actually I have given up on editing this article, it is constantly vandalized and you constantly have to remove silly myths about the Mafia. If you want to try again, please go ahead. I will follow your attempt closely and try to contribute in a positive way. By the way, this discussion is under the wrong heading, it should no be under Etymology (which is actually not the worst part of the article) but History. Mafia Expert 22:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Mahjas" is not an Arabic word; it is a transliteration of an Arabic word. Could someone provide the word in Arabic script, please (the existing text can be kept as a transliteration)? &mdash; 193.203.81.129 10:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really matter which script it is in. Indeed an abjad is different than an alphabet and you will notice the differences in pronunciation, but Malay is written in Arab and Latin alphabets for example. Javanese is written in Latin nowadays and it is used to be written in an abugida. Mallerd (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the lack of proper/adequate government following the risorgimento and secularisation of the country led to a more prominent role of an organisation such as the mafia. The fascists did pretty well against the mafia, but the US 'resurrected' it in preparation of their invasion. In the second half of the 20th century certain decisions such as (how do you call it in English?) letting local governments in the south handle the cassa per il mezzogiorno by themselves. Deu to corruption etc., the money often came into hands of the mafia. Drug trafficking helped the mafia a lot as well. As far as the etymon is concerned..I dunno. Mallerd (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

History
The article's history of the mafia is largely inaccurate. References appear inadequate, glib, and ultimately invalid.

Have done the best I could with the history section with historical fact. I have also made it clear that the myth of a 'good' mafia turning 'bad' is just that - a myth. Until someone produces historical, factual evidence that proves otherwise then please don't bother deleting it just to satisfy your own love of the cosa nostra

I wanna just tell you that mafia is not only sicilian, but is a problem that involve the whole Italy (and also others european countries). It's so important! I live in northen Italy and I know a lot of situations (business, drugs traffics,corruption ecc...) related with mafia! Surely mafia is born in sicily, but now is developed in all Italian regions, and mafia's business is wide in the central and northen part of my country. I hope you'll write this on the "Mafia" page of Wikipedia, 'cause it's true, and the aim of this encyclopedia is to say the truth to people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homer j simpson 18 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

"Other Mafia"
"There are other Mafia's out there, there are even children in schools that want to be like the Mafia and steal from their peers."

This section, right at the end, was obvious done by someone with the literary skill of a tin spoon. I don't have the necessary information, but I'd beg someone who does to change it as soon as possible; it's a disgrace.

redundant
this article is (as i say in my section title) redundant. I was trying to read up on the mafia and though I did learn much, I read about twice as much as I need to. So like I said, I do not know enough, but someone who does:

Please read through the whole article and merge it together, into a shorter more concise, piece

Help me
Tell me about Red Mafia? Yellow Mafia? Buidinhthiem 02:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Rascist Mafia?CharlesMartel 23:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)CharlesMartel


 * There are other articles about the Russian mob and Asian crime groups (Triads, Yakuza). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzucker (talk • contribs)

True Lords
"The Mafia, also referred to in "True Lords" Italian as Cosa Nostra..."

Where do you get "True Lords" from? Please explain what, if anything, this phrase means in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.128.220 (talk)

Specific Families
I was thinking of making articles for specific Mafia families, since this article is just about the Mafia in general. This has already been done for the New York crime families, so why not make articles about other significant families. Does anyone else think this is a good idea, or is it unnecessary? --Mzucker 18:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a list of wanted crime families at the to do list for WikiProject Organized Crime. MadMax 23:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nomination for Article Improvment Drive
As per discussion at WikiProject Organized Crime, this article has been nominated as a possible future candidate for the Article Improvment Drive. MadMax 23:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article needs improvement.

Terminology: The origin of the word "Mafia"
The word "Mafia" comes from the Arabic "Ma Fi" "ما في", which, in English, means "not here", and belongs to the period when Sicily was a Muslim/Arab emirate.

During this period, when the authorities wanted to catch an outlaw they went to his home, but the family would answer "Ma Fi", meaning "he is not here". Later the word was used as an expression meaning "outlaws".

Not very useful page

 * I think this history page should be cleared down. Nothing here adds to the article, which is factual, quotes sources (mostly) and non controversial.Seaneendubh 15:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I once read that another possible source for the name Mafia is the acronym of Morte Alla Franca Italia Anda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.219.99.254 (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

MAFIA an acronym?
is that true the word mafia originates from an acronym Morte Alla Francia, Italia Avanti (literally - death to France, Long live Italy)? apparently it was formed by the peasants when France invaded Italy in 1280s to resist the invaders???

Luckyj 14:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

==Rename to Sicilian Mafia== Reason: the therm mafia has became the generic therm for an organized criminal association, such as Russian Mafia or Black Mafia. Sicilian Mafia is just one of these organizations; by the way is not the oldest (Yakuza and Triad are older of centuries); furthermore it has been neihter the first nor the only one to act in U.S.: when Sicilian Mafia began to growth in U.S., Irish mafia and Jewish Mafia were already active. For some reasons that should be discussed, the Sicilian Mafia has became the most famous one in the popolar culture, and the orginal therm 'Mafia' has become the generic word for 'organized crime'; in the U.S. first, and in all the World later. For these reasons I propose to move the article to Sicilian Mafia or to Cosa Nostra. A new article, called 'Mafia'(meaning 'Organized criminal association') should be created; this article might be a subsection of the article Organized crime. A similar criterion is already used in the Italian Wikipedia --Giovanni Giove 14:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge into tag (Cosa Nostra)
The article Cosa Nostra, is clearly reffered to the Sicilian-American mafia. It shall be merged with the present article.--Giovanni Giove 23:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've already merged the article Cosa Nostra into the present article.--Giovanni Giove 10:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Trashing
I have reverted the edits of Little Joe Shots. This contributor is regurlarly trashing articles on Mafia related issues with unreferenced, unreliable, badly written contributions that lack Wikipedia standards. -- Mafia Expert 11:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Split
Split idea:
 * Mafia as criminal organization, such as, Russian mafia, Triads, Cosa Nostra.
 * Cosa Nostra (Sicilian mafia)
 * American Cosa Nostra (Sicilan American mafia)

--Giovanni Giove 21:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea ! By the way, thanks for cleaning up this article. -- Mafia Expert 08:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It could work. Alexbonaro 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd support a split. At present we have articles such as Estonian mafia, and yet no articles for the much bigger mafias such as the Sicilian mafia. Cordless Larry 21:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the split too. I think the title of Mafia should be retained because people are likely to search for "Mafia" specifically. We could have seperate sub-titles within the article like the Sicilian Mafia and the American Mafia, but briefly explained here in one or two paragraphs and followed by a link to the main article (For more information, see American Mafia; that sort of thing.) Also, I think we'll need a mention on this page to the other two Italian Mafias, the Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta; to my knowledge they are both sometimes referred to as the "Mafia" with the Sicilian's differentiated by being referred to as Cosa Nostra or the Sicilian Mafia. Robert Mercer 20:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Titles
So, it seems it can work. What to sa about the titles? We should descrive in the proper way the difference between a generic criminal organisation, and a mafia-like criminal organization.--Giovanni Giove 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Mafia or Mafia organization or Mafia-like organization....
 * Cosa Nostra or Cosa Nostra (Sicily) or Sicilian Cosa Nostra..
 * Cosa Nostra (U.S.A.) or American Cosa Nostra...


 * I think Mafia is the right title. After all that is how it is generally known. There should be a redirection of Cosa Nostra. At the top there should be a reference and link to the American Cosa Nostra. The current definitions in the introduction describe the characteristics of the Mafia. In the disambiguation page there should be references to all the other "mafias" and a short explanation that the concept mafia has been generalised from the original Sicilian one. That is what I would propose. -- Mafia Expert 19:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. What about 'Cosa Nostra'?
 * Furhtermore, I don't think that the Sicilian one is the 'original' mafia: it is not the oldest one,neither the first to growth it the U.S.--Giovanni Giove 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One other minor point, I think we could lose the "List of Prominant Sicilian Mafiosi". It's growing quite long and could be replaced with a simple link to the Category of Sicilian Mafiosi. Several of the most prominant Mafiosi are already referenced in the main text as well. Thoughts? Robert Mercer 20:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

212.158.244.124 accidentally added these comments to the article instead of this talk page:


 * There is not a "Russian Mafia". There are many Russian Organised Crime Syndicates but they are not known as "The Mafia". In reality The Mafia is 100% Sicilian. Please read the following:


 * "Russian mafia” gave place to “Eurasian criminality” 13.12.2006


 * The new tendency was reported by the head of the Russian National central bureau, Timur Lakhonin at a press-conference held in Moscow on December 12. According to his report, it can be now said for sure that the term "Russian mafia" has almost disappeared from lexicon of international police organizations. "Our partners we closely interact with mark nowadays that the term "Russian mafia" has started to disappear from lexicon giving place to another expression – "Eurasian criminality", which is closer to modern realities". By this expression it is meant criminality from Eastern Europe and countries of the former USSR, - as the head the Russian Interpol bureau commented. Timur Lakhonin also adds that the term "Russian mafia" has now been almost out of usage amongst the Interpol professionals.

--81.79.29.103 00:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

List Of "Proven" and Suspected deaths related to the Mafia
A list of deaths presumed to be or proven to be connected to the mafia would be a great sub or addition to this topic. I would love to get one started but have little or no time to do the required research. Just a thought see if anyone picks it up and runs with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crandawg (talk • contribs) 23:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

Cosa Nostra: Positive side. (and negative side)
Cosa Nostra: Positive side.

Like the angels some who became fallen angels, the term Cosa Nostra, has been isolated as a merely negative entity, this is not so.

As in governments, each year, each member can be corrupted by the money, the power and the opportunity, so it has been with the Cosa Nostra.

You must remember that there are many elements to any organization, any label, colors of truth, half-truths as I call them.

As many of Italian origin found, coming to America there were the 'opportunists', be they people of Italian backgroun, or non-Italians who used there position of power to attack and prey on Italians. To some the 'Cosa Nostra' was a law outside the law that would deal out justice as should be, ESPECIALLY IF THE SYSTEM WAS CORRUPT.

That should not surprise you, as there are good and bad in all groups, be they jewellers who will change your good quality diamond for a lesser quality one, or a false one, or doctors, nurses, policemen, etc.etc.etc.

So while many of the truths on this listing may be true, or have some element of truth, there is the other half-truth that exposes the need for "Protection" from the corruption from within the system. (Todays property taxes, pay for police protection; do you get it ? ). A vicious circle that can itself be corrupted.

Today with governments becoming involved in drugs, gambling, and taxes, especially property taxes in excess of the cost of living, a form of extortion, we cannot paint one as white and the other as black; there needs to be a more critical assessment of each, with the full understanding that truths adn abservations are realtive to time.

I will come back to this with sources, but in the mean time look yourselves for this face of 'Cosa Nostra'; the positive one. Other labels missing is 'Black Hand' the criminal label given to a gang, and The Mafia in general, a term originally given to 'mafiosi', rich, powerful people of influence, and not necessarily criminal.

Bottom line, there was a good side to the Cosa Nostra, possibly the original intentions behind it, that should not be ignored. Case in point, in the Wizard of Oz you have the good witches and the bad ones.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The 'bias' of history can easily be seen by the contrast in treating individuals. In focus is Joseph Kennedy Senior, considered by many the biggest 'bootlegger' in American history. Well he was in the system, and because of such was never labelled and as focused as the Italians were in general. The question is howe much of this insider information, and other activities, were overlooked for "these people" ? Was there two systems at work here ? Would the recordings of history suggest this might be so ?

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors, given that the state appeared to offer no protection of the poor and weak. As late as the 1950s, the funeral epitaph of the legendary boss of Villalba, Calogero Vizzini, stated that "his 'mafia' was not criminal, but stood for respect of the law, defense of all rights, greatness of character. It was love." Here, "mafia" means something like pride, honor, or even social responsibility: an attitude, not an organization. Likewise, in 1925, the former Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Emanuele Orlando stated in the Italian senate that he was proud of being "mafioso", because that word meant honorable, noble, generous."

This is aleady included in the definition and from my research a correct observation. The key is that the power given to these people of position, could easily be exploited for negative purposes, its that simple. Do we call all Catholic Priests pedofiles, because some corrupted their opportunities ? No !

It is the 'black hand' that usually referred to the criminal element, and the term 'Cosa Nostra' and "Mafioso" were more about the positive positions of guardians, mutual respect and integrity. The governments of today, show how easy it is for these individuals to be corrupted. This critical realm of reality is no differnt than any other group; there are the good, the bad, and the evil.

It is not that the label was criminal merely the individuals who were corrupted by the money, the power and greed...

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

In the movie, "The Godfather" there is a scene where 'he' is lying in bed in a hospital, and it seems 'the system' is out to kill him, his son finds out about this and protect their father in the hospital from an apparent 'set up', the legal protection system had been corrupted.

Well here is an insight, from a police offficer in todays paper:

By Andre Lichtenfeld, ex-Thunder Bay policeman Jan 8, 2007, 00:57

Expoliceman Two tier Legal System "I can say with great pleasure and pride, that I have served this community well with dignity, respect and equality when dealing in all aspects of the law.

As a constable, I’ve always thought that treating all persons as equals was a quality that mattered in performing my job as a police officer to the best of my ability.

Approximately 10 years ago (1996) I quickly discovered that there was an implied two tiers of the justice system — one for the common folk and another for those persons of “prominence” who actually thought they were above the law, due to their position of power or stature within society, or social club they belonged to.

Since 1996, my family and I have endured a tremendous amount of stress, sleepless nights and intended public humiliation at the hands of this controlling second tier of society and their “connections,” to ensure this policeman “gets what he deserves” for stepping out of line. (In reality, meaning telling the truth, not hiding the truth)

For more than 15 years, I’ve had to bite my tongue, turn the other cheek as the inconsistencies, unethical actions and corrupt practices of this second tier society ate away at me, nearly destroying my ideas of what a police officer should be, act like and do with the powers vested in him.

On Oct. 11, 2006, I resigned/retired from the Thunder Bay Police Force. Financially, it has been a challenge, however now my family and I are released from the clutches of the so-called prominent and their corrupters. Our lives have been enriched greatly by being a complete family again.

My family, friends and society alike know I spoke the truth 10 years ago, and also know that these past three years have been retaliation only, and nothing else, with the sole purpose to destroy my reputation as an honest, loyal, fair and respectable person. I guess in some way it will enable the corrupters to simply dismiss my facts as fiction, in the event their indiscretions ever became public via a book or otherwise.

I am not a bad or “disgraced” officer as The Chronicle-Journal has described me in the past. I am very proud that I have not become part of the “system,” and that I have not lost my empathy, respect and love for life and this community. I will continue to serve this community as I have for over 24 years with the same qualities that I believe in and teach my children — honesty, tell the truth, work hard and be proud.

Thunder Bay Police Officer - Ordeal I Won't Forget, January 8th, 2007

(this following complaints that some high level people were engaged in prostitution, and the only person convicted was the son of a former preacher, the then crown attorney)

So you see, time has not changed the situation as much, although some 60 years ago, I doubt it very much that the Chicago Sun would have printed t his.

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

So this positive( + ) and negative ( - ) side can be best explained by a story we all should know.... Cain and Abel

"The Torah presents a brief account of the brothers. It states that Cain was a tiller of the land while his younger brother Abel was a shepherd, and that one day they both offered a sacrifice to God, Cain offering fruit and grain, and Abel offering the fat, fatlings, or milk as Josephus has it (the possible renderings of the consonantal Hebrew) from the firstborn of his flock. For an unspecified reason, God favors Abel's offering, and subsequently Cain murders Abel, for another unspecified reason, often assumed simply to be jealousy over God's favoritism. The Torah continues with God approaching Cain asking about Abel's whereabouts. In a response that has become a well-known saying, Cain answers, 'Am I my brother's keeper?'"

The names are changed but the story is basically the same...in any ethnic group, in every tribe, in all colors of the rainbow....

--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mafioso
As related to "Cosa Nostra", Mafioso, was an important looking person, sometimes powerful, mostly rich, always well dresed, and was given referred to as a 'mafioso style'. This person was considered to be 'mafioso'. Someone like Mr. Trump, or Kennedy. Now comes the tricky part. Some may have been criminal, some not. That was not the distinction, as to why they were given this title.

It has come to be a false norm as to see people who are well dressed as 'mafia', ie organized crime, and you might say they are if you believe that all businessmen, politicians and lawyers are criminal, but that is going to far.

Seems the word, and its use, misuse is being changed by the 'forces' at play, but it current use is not correct.

Gangsters, or black hand are two other names, that may apply to 'mafioso' but not the real focus; this is all about half-truths.

Mafioso was more about arrogance in appearance.

"Here are some words related to 'arrogant"... synonyms...

as in cool, ...affected, extravagant, flamboyant, fustian, grand, high-flown, imposing, impressive, lofty, lordly, magnificent, majestic, monumental, noble, ostentatious, overwhelming, pompous, pretentious, princely, showy, stately, ..

Mafiosi: " They were wearing suits "

The term 'mafiosi' is always used in a negative sense in North America and refers to the criminal element, however that was not always so.

I recall the time a student from China commented about the Italian Cultural Center in our town, and stated she had seen the 'mafia outside'. I asked her what led her to believe they were 'mafia'. Her response was that they were wearing 'suits'.

Well the term mafiosi, use to refer to individuals who were well dressed, and imposing, but the criminal meaning was not apart of it. It is like saying the Prime Minster wears a trench coat, criminals wear trench coats, therefore the Prime Minister is a criminal; the logic of this word is somewhat flawed.

The term mafioso, was about appearance not criminality.

Are some criminals arrogant, yes, but not all arrogant people are criminals...

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Not all Mafia members are...
Sicilian. For instance, John Gotti was Napolitan. As they said when he ascended to power, "Beware, the serpent lies coiled in Naples." The claim that non-Sicilians can't rise past the level of 'Associate' is patently false and the article should be amended accordingly.-PassionoftheDamon 00:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Mafia in the American popular culture: Chronology?
Would anyone object to organizing the "The Mafia in the American popular culture" section chronologically (by either order of release or topically?) It comes across (to my eye) a little disjointed. BaikinMan 20:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

? Mafia was hurt bad in 70's and 80's.
Robert Kennedy was terminated in June 1968. He did not lead a congressional investigation in the 1970s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.147.185 (talk) 17:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

People say now that central american narco drug rings are the new mafia, etc. The old mafia was crippled by the FBI, and all the informants, undercovers. It is nothing like it used to be! Not too many hits going on nowadays, used to be gang wars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk) 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Gigante's Family Structure
I'm confused, where exactly does Street Boss and Family Messenger lie within the Mafia strucutre?

Mafia vs. Mob
The use of the term mafia to refer to the mob is common, but also incorrect; similar to using Russia to refer to the USSR. This should be noted in the article. Objections? If not, then I'll make the necessary changes twenty-four hours from now. If someone has an objection, but holds his or her piece during that twenty-four-hour period, then please make it known here before making any contrary edits, and I will work with you to come to a consensus. MVMosin 22:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't make the changes like I said I would; I was very busy. I'm making them presently. MVMosin 20:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your edits. Many people have gone over this before. If you want to change the wording you have to reference your changes. Mafia Expert 22:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Protectors
It says at the start of the article that Sicilians regarded these men as protectors.This isn't true.It should be changed.

Welcome to the world of relative truths, half-truths, if you were a criminal and La Cosa Nostra 'focused on you', you would not call them protectors, but interference.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
"To the men of honor there was no need to name it."??? Please try to separate the romantic legend of the mafia from the actual facts. Their honor is debateable.

The actual fact is that members of the Mafia call themselves "men of honour", whether you agree with them is another matter. Please sign your comments in the future. -- Mafia Expert 19:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish-American organized crime and naming conventions conserning ethnic organized crime articles
There is currently a debate to discuss moving the article title of Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews in organized crime. The reasoning for this move is to provide what has been refered a less offensive and accusatory title which applies to Talk:African-American organized crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime.

One point which was brought up was the absence from a seperate Italian-American organized crime (and Irish-American organized crime regarding the Irish Mob). I know this has been discussed before, however the issue to split Mafia between its U.S. and international equivalants should be considered.

On a related note, Category:Gangs by ethnicity as well as all ethnic and historically related street gang categorires are being nominated for cfd/renaming for similar reasons as well as what has been termed as "original research" in regards to the "Gangs of New York" era. I assume this applies to ethnic-related articles related to Category:Organized crime as well. MadMax 07:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It is now up for a vote. The least you could do is oppose. - Mafia Expert 15:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Protectors
It says at the the top of the page that Sicilians regareded the mafia as protectors.The 'evidence' of this here is from the funeral of a Don.Can anyone provide any actual evidence that Sicilians regarded men who suppressed peasent movements for most of it's history as protectors?Surely the fact that many Sicilians assumed that all of the hated gabelloti were mafiosi is evidence contrary to the claims made in this article.Thanks. The H-Man2 14:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that this paragraph is not very accurate. The attitude of ordinary people towards the mafia was, and probably still is, ambiguous. They fear the mafia, but turn to them for protection as well in case of business ventures and the resolution of conflicts, due to the absence of the state, a functioning justice system and functioning state institutions. Mafia "justice" is often quicker and more effective, but afterwards you owe something. In many cases even if you want to you cannot avoid their interference. It is too simple to say that "Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors", but it also too simple to say that many Sicilians simply hated the mafia. It is somwhere in between, I guess - forced by the circumstances of parallel power system to an official power system that did not serve the interests of ordinary people either. Actually, I gave up editing this page. There is no room for a more nuanced view on the mafia and its complex power relations. You get interrupted all the time by buffs who think The Godfather is the real thing. - Mafia Expert 15:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Interseting. I'll have a shot at editing this when i'm able to. The H-Man2 11:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The American Question
With so many people from Naples (Camorra), Sicily(Mafia/Cosa Nostra) and Calabria (can't spell their name) emigrating to the new world e.g. Australia, Brasil, Argentina in equal proportions to USA's influx, why didn't the "mafia" take off in those countries. What is it about USA that provided such fertile ground for Organised crime??Yitzak99 13:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mafia as a concept"?!?
This whole "Mafia as a concept" opening section reads like an unsourced, POV editorial. Unless someone wants to clean it up (including adding sources), I'd strongly suggest just removing it. Comments? Richwales 00:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Black hand was not the Cosa Nostra.
Black hand was not the Cosa Nostra.

As words go to describe realities in time, the 'black hand' as the name suggests was a true criminal element involved in criminal acts such as stealing, etc.

La Cosa Nostra, (This is our thing) was in part the Italian patriach system in America who sought to protect Italians from the criminal legal system that would often prey on the 'ignorant non-english speaking immigrants'. Their intentions were quite noble, but like anything, some element of corruption entered this picture.

Let us not ignore that 'the black hand' also preyed upon Italians and La Cosa Nostra would be called on to protect the victims.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 15:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you execute a person through the judicial system for just cause because it is the law, then it is the law but if you execute a person outside the law for just cause it is criminal although some might argue that the result is the same ?

Canadians don't believe in capital punishment !

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Good and bad police.
To focus on the 'bad apples' within an 'organization, ie police department and suggest that this entire organization if bad, and extrapolate that evil, because one incident or several plays into the deceptive world of half-truths.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

La Cosa Nostra and Mafioso was not always criminal !
Original research lead:

The terms are relative to time, and to location. 50 years ago, the Cosa Nostra was one thing, today another, and the language is relative to where it is being used.

I did find a site referring to organized crime, yes mafia in Siciliy, Trangata in Calabria, but not Cosa Nostra.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)  (some edits...)

La Cosa Nostra and Mafioso was not criminal !

There is already enough material on this entry to suggest the difference between La Cosa Nostra, Mafioso, and Mafia.

To group them together based on some similarities does not serve the entry.

The words are relative to time, another aspect of half-truths, that the entry should be more clear about.

La Cosa Nostra as one source says was about self protection from a legal system that was criminal...

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be advisable to describe the relative nature of the terms....

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Capo Bastone - Police of yesterday ?
Capo Bastone - Police of yesterday ?

This is a classic example of truths, as in words being relative to 'time'.

In the olden days, the capo bastone was one of the people encharged with maintaining law and order in the various papal states of Italy, among the various villages.

It is unfair to use this term without proper reference to the old days, and todays use.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 21:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Mafioso
Mafioso

Trying to explain the false logic behind the word...

Etymology

"The word "mafia" is taken from the old Sicilian adjective mafiusu, which has its roots in the Arabic mahyas, meaning "aggressive boasting, bragging" or marfud meaning "rejected". Roughly translated, it means "swagger", but can also be translated as "boldness, bravado". "

My 'original research' suggests that mafioso was that, however the word has taken on a false meaning due to half-truth logic.

Many rich people are mafioso, ie arrogant. Many criminal people are mafioso, ie arrogant. False conclusion is that all arrogant people are arrogant, and that arrogance is criminal. False logic.

The definition of the term is relative to the time and place of usage, however, its true meaning has little, although some connection to crime, its true meaning was about arrogance, power, and wealth - criminal or non-criminal.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"Morte Alla Francia Italia Anela!!"
Has any thought been given to the 13th c. slogan morte alla Francia Italia anela ("Death to the French is Italy's cry")? Articles on the Mafia in other languages refer to this saying as a source for the word Mafia as an acronym. 208.127.136.226 08:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

popular culture broken link
The Mafia in Popular Culture link is broken and I can only assume that there is an article, but it isn't being linked to. I don't know what the article is called, can anyone else fix this. 66.215.189.59 01:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Tragic Realism
The real reason the Sicilian mafia formed was due to the exploitative "conspiracies" historically inflicted on the native Sicilian peasantry by various corrupt occupying governments (a typical scenario being the conquering aristocrat raping a native Sicilian peasant maiden but never receiving justice in the "official" royal courts), and thus the more "bold" of the misused, oppressed native Sicilian peasants, under law of self-preservation, tragically became "conspirators" themselves to compete in the savage Machiavellian game of survival...but entropically degenerated over time into its modern expression of banditry without higher purpose... It is easy to locate pure evil in one entity, demonize and scapegoat, and pretend we understand; but remember W.H. Auden's words, not to excuse immorality, but to explain:

I and the public know What all schoolchildren learn Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return.

The popularly infamous Sicilian-American mob functionally mirrors "official", demo-bureaucratic modern governments except in one way - its lack of dualistic hypocrisy, its stark recognition of pagan manliness, pagan tribalism, pagan Machiavellianism, and pagan vendetta as the guarantees of earthly individual and corporate success. Historically, the mask of hypocritical "lawfulness" which "legal" governments verbalistically indulge in is, in 99 out of 100 cases, customarily a tool of deception to victimize uninitiated lower-class dupes and fools. Whereas the bloodthirsty activities of the mob are relatively straightforward and easy targets of the orgiastic scapegoating self-righteousness of the ignorant crowd, "legal", "official" governments cleverly hide their own ugly operations under the forms of deceptive rhetoric (as if no conceivable affinity existed between an "evil" protection racket and "legitimate" tax-enforcement, murder and "extrajudicial capital punishment") and mask their gangsterish dirty work and employment of hired guns and assassination-squads with the terms "top secret" and "covert warfare". These sociobiologically inevitable facts are sad but true; and some earthlings, like the Indian Jainas and early Christian ascetics, thus refused to conform to this world in which psychopathic amorality is naturally adapative, and advocated "unnatural" self-denial.

Mario Puzo on chivalrous Mafia origins
Famous Italian-American writer Mario Puzo on the origins of the Mafia:

"Throughout history, the people of Sicily were oppressed mercilessly by the Romans, the Papacy, the Normans, the French, the Germans, and the Spanish. Their governments enslaved the poor working class, exploiting their labor, raping their women, murdering their leaders. And so the 'Mafia' sprang up as a secret society of avengers. When the royal courts refused to take action against a Norman noble who raped a farmer's wife, a band of peasants assassinated him. When a police chief tortured some petty thief with the dreaded casetta, that police chief was killed. Gradually the strongest-willed of the peasants and the poor formed themselves into an organized society which had the support of the people and in effect became a second and more powerful government. Where there was a wrong to be redressed, no one ever went to the official police, they went to the leader of the local Mafia, who mediated the problem. ... And so now there was not a Sicilian who believed in [abstract bureaucratic] government, in law, in the structured order of society which had always been used to turn them into beasts of burden..." (Mario Puzo, The Sicilian, Linden Press/Simon & Shuster, New York, 1984; p. 114). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 12:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Rename?
Should this page be "Sicilian Mafia"? I'm currently writing a page on the Calabrian Mafia. It will be similar to the current page in layout and size but will of course focus on Calabria and Australia. Both articles should be reached from Mafia (disambiguation) as they are similar organisations with completely seperate traditions and history but with the same popular name. What are people thoughts on this? Wayne 16:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The Mafia is Sicilian. The question is if the American part should be renamed to American mafia. The "Calabrian mafia" is known as the 'Ndrangheta and the page already exists. In other words, renaming the page is not necessary. I suggest you have a look at the 'Ndrangheta article before you decide to initiate a page on the "Calabrian Mafia". - Mafia Expert 16:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops, didn't think to check that. Having now read it I see it needs a LOT of improvement. It seems there might be a need for a page on the Australian connection as what I wanted to write would not fit there very well. I think the page would be better served by being renamed to "Calabrian Mafia" as that is what it is more commonly known as and people wanting information would likely not look for it under it's real name (as happened with me). As such i still think there is a need to rename this article. Wayne 05:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you search for Calabrian Mafia you are now automatically redirected to 'Ndrangheta. There is no need for a disambiguation page in this case. For somebody who just found out that the proper name for the Calabrian Mafia is 'Ndrangheta you have very strong opinions on the quality of the 'Ndrangheta article. It certainly needs more detail and elaboration, but the information there is quite good and at least is referenced, which is lacking with a lot of pages. A separate page on the 'Ndrangheta in Australia might certainly be useful, though. - Mafia Expert 08:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I knew the name 'Ndrangheta but that is only used by law enforcement in Australia and to the public and media they are almost always called "the Honoured Society" a term they use for themselves in public in preference to 'Ndrangheta. When called Mafia it is rarely used without "Calabrian" attached. I expected the WP page to use the common term as that is what people would look for and also because I thought English usage usually trumps native language in such cases. I hate redirects for common terms lol. Wayne 06:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There already is a page on the Honoured Society, you can help me improve it. However, there is a section in the main 'Ndrangheta article addressing the Australian connection.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonaspv (talk • contribs) 03:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Since when is Australia the measure of things? In Europe 'Ndrangheta is the common term. Wikipedia is there to educate people. If they did not already know, with one click they now know. If you like you could add at the the top of the Mafia page that if you are looking for the Calabrian version, you have to go to 'Ndrangheta. Renaming is not necessary. - Mafia Expert 08:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think any changes should be made. It's almost forgotten that "mafia" has long been a Sicilian word used to describe the Sicilian mob.  In fact, "The Mafia" is the Sicilian mob, also known as "cosa nostra" (our thing) between Sicilian mobsters, and "manu niura" (the black hand).  The term mafia was later applied to all regional groups of organized crime in Italy, and later in America.  In modern times, the term mafia refers to organized crima at a global level.  I'm not saying this is wrong, since the etymology of words is constantly changing.  It's similar to how the word "Kleenex", which as a popular (and an original) brand of tissues, later came to signify the word 'tissue' in general (i.e. "can you pass me a kleenex?").  However, there is no reason to forget that "The Mafia" is the "Sicilian mob", for which the term was coined.  All other "mafias" should be referred to as "mobs" or "criminal enterprises."  And cognoscent of the fact that people now use terminology such as the "Russian mafia", "Chinese mafia", "Albanian mafia," etc., the word "Mafia" will always have its origins in the Sicilian sect.  All others should remain in the disambiguity column, or better yet, labeled as "mobs" or "criminal organizations".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zulux1 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Offensive sentence
Sicily was strongly Catholic, but in a strongly tribal sense rather than in an intellectual and theological sense, and had a tradition of suspicion of outsiders.

I believe this sentence, the way it is written, carries an offensive or potentially offensive content. I would suggest to rearrange it. Anyway, the fact it presents as plain and simple should be argued, and its source cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.44.60 (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Tommy DeSimone
under Prominent Italian American mafiosi, it is written that: Thomas DeSimone 'Two-Gun Tommy' : (1950-1979) Gangster. First boss to turn informer

which is not true. even the article Thomas Desimone itself talk about completely different stuff so someone need to edit that.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.72.150.111 (talk) 20:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Bad Sentence!
This article contains the sentence :

"The mafia also have a strong business in extortion big companies as well as smaller ones."

This is bad for two reasons; firstly the rest of the article has 'the mafia' as a singular entity, i.e. 'the mafia has' not 'the mafia have'. Secondly 'in extortion big companies' is grammatically at fault. It should read 'in the extortion of big companies' or 'in extorting big companies'. Kevoreilly 19:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)kevoreilly

I am also fairly upset with the loose use of commas and periods in relation to their coinciding quotes. Have we no regard for order? I was under the learned assumption that commas, periods, and the like PRECEEDED quotes.... perhaps I am wrong? Pumpkinpeejays (talk) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It all depends on which national variant of English one is using. -- Web H amster  20:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Mistakes about Joe Petrosino
Joe Petrosino was killed in Palermo and not in the United States (Dickie, Cosa Nostra, p. 199), and he wasn't based in New Orleans, but in New York. --Analytikone 02:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph about etymology
The following paragraph was removed: "Another, less colorful etymology is the Arabic morfiyeh, meaning simply "group" (cf. Mafia Island, a Tanzanian possession where Islamic culture was once predominant, and where the Arabic word resulted in precisely the same term.) Though the characteristics suggested by the former etymology do conform to the ideals of mafiusu behavior, the latter reflects the strategic nature of the Sicilian underground group in defiance of central authority (though not likely stretching as far back, conceptually, as the actual Emirate of Sicily). In fact, because of the Arabic language's derivation of vocabulary from basic trilateral roots (e.g. K-T-B, kataba), the latter two Arabic words, marfud and morfiyeh (as also the related term mufrad, "singular"), are related. Thus, the likeliest candidate for the actual origin of mafia would be the most basic morpheme of this Arabic root." A reference was asked on October 4, 2007, but was not provided. - Mafia Expert (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

10th rule
For reasons to not be accepted, does an uncle in the police count?
 * Why, did you want to join? Leo "Pussy" Turin 05:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Hi there, I noticed that the page has been vandalized ("Secret potatoes society"?!). I tried to undo the damage but the page is protected. I created an account but I was locked out all the same. Anyone authorized please reverse the latest modifications. Thanks.

Dino72 12:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Semi-protection disables editing from anonymous users and registered accounts less than four days old. I guess that explains it. - Mafia Expert 13:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

American Mafia
I plan to create a new article named 'American Mafia' containing all the US material from this article and then leave a few sentences in this Mafia article to refer to the new 'American Mafia' article. Why: so there will be a US specific article that fits better into US specific categories. I plan to do this in about a week. Questions? Hmains (talk) 17:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

greco is no longer alive no more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.203.12.240 (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"The Mafia has turned into one of Italy's biggest business enterprises with a turnover of more than US$120bn a year."
The mafia is not a business. Please do not lend them that legitimacy by calling them that, they are criminals and terrorists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franktamborello (talk • contribs) 15:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's pretty funny that you weren't brave enough to sign that.--Deespence2929 (talk) 14:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha^^ (Butters x (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC))

The suggested figure is nonsense, anyway. Where precisely is that $120 billion going? If you stuffed it under the mattress, you'd need oxygen to sleep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.8.173 (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Rename to "Cosa Nostra"
The official name of the Mafia is Cosa Nostra, so the article should be renamed to Cosa Nostra. Mafia is sort of a slang term. General Mannino (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a 'time' element in this definition.

Its like:

"That is that 'some' involvment related to the illegal drug trade in the area is beyond the law. That is like in the days of New York when SOME within the system was corrupt and involved in corrupt affairs, they were at war with the gangsters and the Cosa Nostra who were trying to bring law and order to their community. (history might record it in that matter, as the line between law and order and criminal organizations does not exist or changes in time...)"

When the Italians first came to North America, many of the political and judicial systems were corrupt to them, so they formed their own 'protection system'. That was then.

There was always a criminal element within the community, as there is with any group, ie gangsters.

Mafioso, was term applied to well dressed, weathly influential people, non-criminal or not. The use of the term is somewhat flawed.

The Cosa Nostra, like Government or evolves in time. What it is today is another question, as many Italians are now in the system, and don't have to operate from outside it.

The terms are being generalized, and used out of the 'time contimum'.

Its a difficult subject to understand, and certainly there are very few references from 'the system'....

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a useful link?

Labour History and Cosa Nostra

Also, the Italian-Americans, fearing the Irish-American police were forced to rely on each other for safety. They eventually developed the Cosa Nostra to combat and protect their community from Anglo-American interference.


 * "The Cosa Nostra, modeled after the Italian Mafia became a force to be reckoned with. Its beginnings were due in part to the resistance of many Italians against the French who were in control of many of the peninsulas Italian City States. Limited success for the Italian-American movement turned altruism into apathy.


 * The very people it was supposed to protect became the victim. The shoemaker or the corner grocer were forced to pay homage and the hard earned wages were turned over to the shadowy figure that would pop in the place of business from time to time. "

The 'definition' of the organization changes in time, and like any 'good organization' it can become 'corrupted.'

Its like falsely saying, 'Priests' are a corrupt group that prey on little boys". False generalized and relative to time.

I hope you can understand the gist.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand. General Mannino (talk) 22:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Page protection
I noticed this page has been semi-protected for a long time. East718, the admin who protected it, actually set the expiry at "infinite." The protection policy advises that this is only for pages "subject to persistent and heavy vandalism." It may be worth revisiting whether the page should be sprotected, although I will leave that to the discretion of the editors familiar with this page and its vandalism history. --Ginkgo100talk 14:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I trust you will you will fix all the vandalism that will appear once the page will be unprotected. - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I will. If no one has any other issues with it, I'd be happy to remove the semi-protect myself. Beam 15:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

How Many
How many people are members of the mafia? Just curious? Freedom Fighter 1988 (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to Giovanni Falcone Sicilian "Cosa Nostra" (that the real name and not "mafia") had about 5000 members. He also said that american Cosa Nostra is a separated and different organization.--62.13.169.94 (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Then I have another question. How many member does have the american Cosa Nostra? Freedom Fighter 1988 (talk) 23:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Sicilian vespers
'The involvement of the Mafia (or an early form of it) in the Sicilian Vespers uprising of 1282, a rebellion in which many occupying French officials were simultaneously killed as a prelude to throwing the French out of Sicily in favor of allies in Spain, has never been entirely confirmed with certainty.'

Confirmed with certainty? Lol. There is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence for this, except romanticising of the mob by mob sympathisers. 84.91.78.42 (talk) 18:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Name origin
I am half Italian with Sicilian relatives and it was explained to me that the name "Mafia" originated in the story that I retell to you below:
 * "Back when the French were occupying Sicily there was a young lady who was being prepared by her Mother and other female relatives on her wedding day and for some reason they all had to leave her to do soemthing. While they were away some French soldiers broke in and raped the young bride. When the mother and family returned they found the young bride to be all bloddied and violated and the mother went out into the street screaming "Mi Filia" (my daughter) but in the Sicilian dialect it was more like " Ma Fia". Seeing this outrage, the local men secretly organized and took revenge on French soldiers and would say "Ma Fia" when they killed the soldier or would write it on their dead body. The raped young bride was symbolic to them as Sicily and the rape was what the French were doing to the Sicilian people. That is how we get the word "Mafia" for this thing of our, La Cosa Nostra."

Now that all of my Uncles has passed away I am wondering if this story is accurate and true or if it is a common story or just a story unique to my family. Also, I am told that the Mafia where my relatives are from in Patti, Sicilia is called La Cosa Nostra but that the Mafia where my Grandparents and mother's older siblings are from near Salerno, italia is called "La Camorra" or "the black hand". Anybody know anything about that? Thanks


 * I'm by no means expert, but I've heard the term used for Mafia in the U.S. between around 1890 & 1920, before Maranzano & Masseria fought it out. I've also heard there was a "black hand" symbol used, painted on doors/buildings, of people who crossed them (or of mafiosi who belonged, my recall's a bit fuzzy). Camorra I've also heard mentioned for the same period. Can't say if the term went back to Italy or anything, or actually came from there. Get a copy of Mafia U.S.A., if you can find one; I think that's where I saw it.  TREKphiler   hit me ♠  08:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has an article about the Camorra which is a separate organisation. Graham 87 06:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Rename
The word Mafia today is commonly applied to organized criminal groups around the world, and in any case the Sicilians never use it themselves. I therefore propose that a separate "Cosa Nostra" article be created that focuses exclusively on the Sicilian Mafia, whilst this article only list various organized crime groups.Kurzon (talk) 20:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't agree: Mafia is commonly used in Italy. Other criminal organisations got their name from the Mafia. The section on various Mafia organisations is moved to Organized crime. In the future, maybe you should wait implementing a major overhaul of a page until other have had the time to comment and to agree or disagree. You made some useful changes in the Cosa Nostra page, they have been kept in this restored Mafia page. - Mafia Expert (talk) 21:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Mafia" may have once exclusively applied to the Sicilian Mafia, but nowadays it is applied to many organizations. In America, when people say "Mafia", they mean the Italian-Americans, not the Sicilians.  And, like I said, the Sicilian mafiosi never use that name themselves.  The word mafia has changed its meaning, and this article should reflect that.Kurzon (talk) 02:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not exclusively for Americans and Sicilian Mafiosi. The majority of people see the Mafia as a Sicilian phenomenon. Before changing the meaning of a word and a major overhaul it is good practice to ask the opinion of others. - Mafia Expert (talk) 07:55, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

i think he has point mafia is used for lots of organised gangs. maybe we should rename this article cosa nostra.BaronBifford (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It is also used for tightly organized professionals (the Wall Street Mafia - 1,500 hits on Google) or whatever, and is not limited to criminal organisations. The expansion of the use of the term Mafia can be addressed in a separate article, Current use of the term Mafia, for instance, which can be linked to this page. Or the Mafia (disambiguation) article can be expanded to address the issue. - Mafia Expert (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I think it really needs to be renamed, for the reasons I've said. Can you back up the idea that the majority of the world thinks "Mafia" is exclusively Sicilian?Kurzon (talk) 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you back up the claim that Mafia is commonly applied to organized criminal groups around the world, and in any case the Sicilians never use it? No, you cannot, and stop vandalizing this page. - Mafia Expert (talk) 17:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's written in this very article that Sicilian mafiosos don't use the word Mafia. John Dickie writes the same in his book Cosa Nostra: A History of the Sicilian Mafia (quote: "It is hard now to realize how much was not known about the mafia before Tommaso Buscetta sat down with Giovanni Falcone.  The first revelation was the name given to the organization by its members: Cosa Nostra - 'our thing'. Until then, even the few investigators and police who had taken this name seriously had assumed that it only applied to the American mob.").Kurzon (talk) 18:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said before, this page is not exclusively for Sicilian Mafiosi. If you would have bothered to look at some Italian newspapers you would have seen that the term Mafia is used constantly for the Sicilian organisation. There are numerous books about the Mafia. Maybe you should read something more than just Dickie's book. - Mafia Expert (talk) 21:12, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Fine. I give up, for now. I am more interested in improving this article's content than squabbling over the title.Kurzon (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, that is a more constructive approach. I added my bit. Please cite your sources. - Mafia Expert (talk) 23:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Fine, but please try to keep a nice flow to the article as a whole. Don't just jam bits in.Kurzon (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Check these links: http://www.eurispes.it/VisualizzaComunicato.asp?val=7&cod=59

Even Italians refer to other Italian organized crime groups as "Mafias". How about we make this article a link hub for the big four Italian criminal societies (Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, Sacra Corona Unita)?Kurzon (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Listen, I don't deny that Mafia is used for a lot of criminal organisations, and Mafie (plural) is used in Italy to describe Mafia-type organisations. It is even used for non-criminal, but tightly organised professionals, that want keep competition out. That is not the point. The point is that most people who look into Wikipedia for Mafia need to know what the original is. If you want to explain that Mafia nowadays is used to describe many criminal organisations and even in the wider context I mentioned above, I suggested to do that either in a new article or on the disambiguation page. We could even spend a paragraph in the introduction on it, linking it to an article about it. I do not have any problem with such a solution, but keep this page as it is. - Mafia Expert (talk) 00:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Non-mafia groups
I removed this paragraph:


 * The oldest reference to Mafia groups in Sicily dates back to 1838, in a report of the General Prosecutor of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, although the term "mafia" was not used. The report described the phenomenon rather than the name: "In many villages, there are unions or fraternities – kinds of sects – which are called partiti, with no political colour or goal, with no meeting places, and with no other bond but that of dependency on a chief."

The reason I removed it is because it is too difficult to say whether these groups are truly mafia groups. There were lots of criminal gangs operating in early 19th century Sicily - bandits, violent artisan guilds, etc. We could go all the way back to the Middle Ages with this approach. The Galati account is the oldest one that mentions familiar Mafia terms such as cosca, "man of honour" and the initiation ritual - we should start with this.Kurzon (talk) 23:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I put it back again. Many, if not all, real historians consider this to be the first reference to the Mafia. It is properly referenced, by a well-known academic. They were not bandits. We won't get back to middle ages. The Galati account is not the oldest account, but Colonna's, as you can read in your favourite book. If you want to know more about the difference between Mafiosi read Brigandage in the Two Sicilies or Francesco Paolo Varsallona. Wikipedia can be a good source, sometimes. - Mafia Expert (talk) 00:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Colonna account talks about the Mafia's existence, but the Galati account is an actual case study.


 * You know it better than all real historians? Go read some historical material before you start messing up an article. The history sections starts with 1812, so what is wrong with a reference to 1838. That way we "keep a nice flow to the article as a whole". - Mafia Expert (talk) 00:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Stop vandalizing
Could you please stop vandalizing this page. You are removing properly referenced paragraphs, andn do not properly reference your own additions. - Mafia Expert (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not vandalizing this page. I edited paragraphs to make them more elegant and give the article a better flow (you just just jam in paragraphs like that!).  I have referenced all my additions. Do you even scrutinize all my changes?  All you do is use the undo function.Kurzon (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Useful sections are kept, unreferenced or not sufficiently referenced sections are removed. What you call "elegant" is in fact vandalism. - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Vandalism is deleting half an article and replacing it with penis jokes. What I'm doing is improving the article.Kurzon (talk) 22:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Improving? Like changing the right plural Mafiosi in Mafiosos? Not properly referencing your additions (anyone can put "Dickie, Cosa Nostra" behind a paragraph) and other blunders. Give me a break. You are simple not to be trusted when you start editing, that is why I keeping a very close watch. And unlike your suspicions I do sometimes keep your additions. - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Mafiosos is a valid alternate spelling. And I've been referencing Dickie's book because I'm reading from it.Kurzon (talk) 22:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

This is going nowhere. As a courtesy to readers you need to properly reference your edits, which page of a book and so on. I have been reverting your errors, move sections where I think you have a point and keeping useful additions. However, you are now reverting every change. I have reported the case at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. - Mafia Expert (talk) 23:10, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Putting page numbers in a reference is not good because it can vary with different publications of the same work.


 * Maybe I should have reported you for edit warring. Kurzon (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Even pocket editions normally maintain the same page numbers. Anyway, some indication is better than nothing. I use the pages of the edition that is listed under references. No need to report me, I did not hide my role in the matter. - Mafia Expert (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring: caution
The edit warring here reached WP:AN3. You haven't stopped reverting, but you have stopped marking your edits as reverts. So: from now: all reverts to be clearly marked as such ("rv" is usual) and justified on the talk page here William M. Connolley (talk) 21:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I reverted some sections. They are fully referenced and enhance the understanding of the phenomenon. - Mafia Expert (talk) 01:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Fully referenced" does not mean "fully relevant". I deleted a section on an 1838 report because it only made reference to "fraternities" but never mentioned any criminality or specific resemblance to Cosa Nostra. Furthermore, I moved the rather large quote from Colonna's report to the references section because I felt it was cluttering up the main article.Kurzon (talk) 11:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Most serious historians think this is very relevant. However, Colonna's quote might be better of in a note. - Mafia Expert (talk) 15:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There are "fraternities" all over the world! You must include more in order to link 1838 quote this to the Mafia's genesis.  Is there any more to the text from which you are quoting?Kurzon (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring or no, your grammar is purely frustrating from an oxford standpoint! Obligatory SHEESH!Pumpkinpeejays (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Figures?
I'm looking for up-to-date statistics on Cosa Nostra. How much money do they make a year, and from what rackets? How many families are there? How many "made" members? Mafia Expert, do you have anything from your books?Kurzon (talk) 20:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Confesercenti, Italy’s association of small businesses, and Eurispes publish figures about business volume of Italian criminal organizations. The latest report of Confesercenti you can find here: . The Direzione Investigativa Antimafia (DIA) publishes statistics as well. They publish a report every half year. Another source is the Antimafia Commission. Their latest overview was published in 2006 . According to Direzione Centrale delle Polizia Criminale (Criminalpol) of the Italian Ministry of the Interior there were 181 criminal groups on Sicily with almost 5,500 members in late 1994 (these might include non-Mafia groups such as the Stidda). You can find the figures in Mafia Brotherhoods by Letizia Paoli. All in all, Paoli concludes that the Sicilian Cosa Nostra is composed of about a hundred families and has at least 3,500 to 4,000 members (see p. 32). Somewhere in the DIA reports or the Antimafia report there might be more recent numbers, but I suspect they do not differ very much from the 1994 statistics. - Mafia Expert (talk) 14:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have anything to give me on present day Cosa Nostra drug trafficking? How much money do they make out of it? What connections do they have? What do they do with the drugs?Kurzon (talk) 04:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I do not have something to "give", do your own research. I indicated where you might find something, but that is obviously not appreciated. - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Plural spelling: "Mafiosos" vs "Mafiosi"
In Italian, the plural of "mafioso" is "mafiosi", but must this hold true for English as well? In Italian, the plural of "capo" is "capi", but in English I commonly see it spelt "capos" - even by American mafiosi. I think using the spelling "mafiosos" and "coscas" will reduce confusion for readers who don't know Italian.Kurzon (talk) 12:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It will not confuse them, they will learn something. - Mafia Expert (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * mafiosi is about 10x as common on English sites as mafiosos. So English speakers use the -i more often in this case. Other cases may be different. Any suggestions about spaghettos? Jasy jatere (talk) 15:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename Part 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus JPG-GR (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See also previous discussion above

Too many organisations, including the Italian government, refer to other Italian OCGs as "the Mafia". When Italians want to refer to the Sicilian Mafia specifically, they say "Cosa Nostra" or "the Sicilian Mafia". This article's contents should be moved to "Sicilian Mafia". The "Mafia" article should become instead a disambiguation page that lists all the major Italian OCGs, and we can note there that Cosa Nostra was the "original Mafia".Kurzon (talk) 15:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Support the spirit of the nomination and agree with some discussion participants above that Mafia is frequently applied to a wider subset of organized crime than only the Sicilian Mafia, especially in English-speaking countries where a majority of English Wikipedia users likely hail from (think of usage in the USA for example). However, some attempt should be made to present what the replacement Mafia article would look like to better gauge support for this move. —   AjaxSmack   17:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I propose the replacement Mafia article contain an etymology of the word and a list of all the Italian OCGs in Italy and the United States (Sicilian Mafia, Camorra, Italian-American Mafia, Sacra Corona Unita and 'Ndrangheta), with brief descriptions and links to their articles. There can then be a second section that lists non-Italian organizations that are also sometimes nicknamed Mafias (eg the Russian Mafia). Kurzon (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest getting to work on it then. You can start it on a user subpage if there is no suitable temporary location in mainspace. I support the effort but am uncomfortable with mere promises that an article will appear. —   AjaxSmack   17:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See my user page for my draft of the replacement article. Kurzon (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Looks good.  I added a line to address User:Mafia Expert's concern noted below. —   AjaxSmack   23:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

As I pointed out above the term Mafia is not limited to criminal organisations. It is also used for tightly organized professionals (the Wall Street Mafia - 1,500 hits on Google) or whatever. The expansion of the use of the term Mafia to non-criminal organisations should be addressed as well. The etymology is very much linked to the Sicilian Mafia, and should be kept in the article about the Sicilian Mafia. - Mafia Expert (talk) 20:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "It is also used for tightly organized professionals..." This is true but is an issue for Wiktionary rather than Wikipedia.  Formal usage of the term applies almost always to criminal organizations.  Certainly mention of it could be made of other uses in the proposed draft article and links to any articles that carry the appendage "mafia" could be given there (along the lines of Licence Raj from Raj).  I have added a sentence to the Other mafias section of the proposed article reflecting your wording.  Agree with the statement about the etymology — it should not be removed from the Sicilian Mafia article but it can be treated at the Mafia article as well. —   AjaxSmack   23:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose "Mafia" is the common name, and I wouldn't support this becoming a disambig.-- Patton t / c 14:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I am also not in favour of the move. When Italians want to refer to the Sicilian Mafia specifically, they say "Cosa Nostra" or "the Mafia", and not the "Sicilian Mafia". That is simply not the case, everybody in Italy knows the Mafia is Sicilian -- there is no need to spell it out. The plural Mafie is used to indicate the different Italian OC groups. Just look in any Italian newspaper or official report. Looking at the proposed new Other mafias, this might just as well be included as a section in the current Mafia page. If we decide to move the article, their should be a direct link to Sicilian and American Mafia just below the title. - Mafia Expert (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not just specific to Italy, but to the world. When Americans refer to "the Mafia", they mean the American Mafia.  If we make this page a disambig, I will make it clear that the Sicilian Mafia was the first one to be called "the Mafia" by anyone. I'll put it in the intro. Kurzon (talk) 00:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "...Everybody in Italy knows the Mafia is Sicilian -- there is no need to spell it out." However, English Wikipedia is a general resource for English readers around the world, many of whom come from the USA where "Mafia" does not necessarily refer to the Sicilian one, the definition of ambiguity.  With no primary topic, a disambiguation page is in order.  See WP:DAB: "Disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might use the "Go button", there is more than one Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead."  —   AjaxSmack   03:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I just refuted the reasons why Kurzon wants to move this page, so don't blame me for silly arguments. I think most people, English speaking or not, think Mafia refers to the Sicilian one. I don't know about Americans, they seem to ignore what is going on beyond their borders. But this is not just an encyclopedia for Americans. However, allthough your argument is more sound, I still see no reason why this cannot be dealt with in a section of the current page, just as the link to the American Mafia is made under the title on the current page. - Mafia Expert (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You have arguments for why the page should stay but you should ideally support this with some evidence. User:Kurzon gave limited evidence above supporting a move and this is congruent with my own observations.  Your right that English Wikipedia is not only for Americans but there are likely more American readers than Italian ones to a significant degree.  Americans may "seem to ignore what is going on beyond their borders" but this should not contravene the WP:UCN (Use Common Names) guideline. —   AjaxSmack   22:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

support do not name it "cosa nostra" or you will confuse it with american "la cosa nostra".BaronBifford (talk) 01:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I have reviewed the above discussion as I came to close a request at WP:Requested moves. It seems to me that there is not consensus for this move; you seem to be split down the middle. So I'm going to leave it here for now. I have lowered the move protection on the page but this is not an invitation to move without consensus on this talk page! Martinmsgj 16:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mafia confusions
Someone added statistics at the end of the article for Mafia turnovers for ALL the organized crime groups in Italy. This article is specific to Cosa Nostra. It is useless to quote these statistics without saying what fraction Cosa Nostra takes.

This is another reason why I think this article needs to be renamed Kurzon (talk) 01:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Mafia, Freemasons and Church
I think the article should try to better explain the relationship between Mafia, Freemasons and Church, especially since the P2 Lodge scandal exposed that there were possibly conflictual links between all three organizations. It seems that the Mafia was created as a dissident group of Carbonaris in the 1830s, hence they have a tendency to act as a mediator between the Church and the Grand Orient, and they typically oppose both. This would also explain the unusual initiation ceremonies of the Cosa Nostra. ADM (talk) 17:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Says who? - Mafia Expert (talk) 19:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

- A source for the "dissident group of Carbonaris in the 1830s" would be great. Would be very interesting to read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.160.116.24 (talk) 20:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Prominent Sicilian mafiosi
Should the section Mafia be placed in some kind of order? What order? Hmains (talk) 16:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Cosa Nostra, NOT La Cosa Nostra
Someone changed the page and made it say that the Mafia is called "La Cosa Nostra" when it's just called "Cosa Nostra", "La Cosa Nostra" is what the FBI calls the Mafia and is not the correct name. 67.238.23.44 (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

malignant terrorism
if an organized group provokes fear and intimidation in others in order to impose their belief system onto them or disrupt their way of life,like al queda,they are considered terrorists.if an organized group provokes fear and intimidation in others in order to profit from that fear and intimidation or to just take what others have you are also terrorists.just because it's done more for money than idealogy and religion doesn't make it any less despicable and cancerous to a society and culture.gangster terrorism is terrorism,acknowledge and own up and stop celebrating,congradulating and applauding these malignant lowlives and their mentally ill and violent way of life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.190.51 (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.Kurzon (talk) 17:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting quote without citation
In addition to Salvatore Lima, mentioned above, the politician Giulio Andreotti and the High Court judge Corrado Carnevale have long been suspected of having ties to the Mafia.

I'm deleting this quote because there is no citation. It's inappropriate to trash a politicians name with published work proving so. TomNyj0127 (talk)
 * Agreed. Accusations of Mafia ties are very common in Italian politics. Substantian is in order.Kurzon (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

mafia = sicilian
why is this article implying that the term mafia is applied only to the sicilian cosa nostra? I see a small reference to the 'ndrangheta, camorra..didn't even bother to search for the sacra corono unita. Why is this? Mallerd (talk) 21:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Solved. - DonCalo (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

How many members today?
There's a phrase in the article saying that "today" there are about 100 mafia families in Sicily, with at least 3,500 - 4,000 members. As far as I know, this estimate could be outdated. It could possibly have been true in the late '70s. Thereafter, a host of mafia members were killed or arrested. It is quite impossible to say how many clans and members the Sicilian mafia has today. I suggest to change the text, to alert the reader that the estimate is highly uncertain.--Madimarc (talk) 15:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The source is from 2003, so that takes care of the Mafia War in the 1980s. The estimate is not highly uncertain, but quite consistent. - DonCalo (talk) 18:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)