Talk:Magic Johnson

25 million deal - 1981 or 1984
Started to translate this article. Here is a first question: Regards, --X-Weinzar (talk) 23:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * During the off-season, Johnson signed a 25-year, $25 million contract with the Lakers, which was the highest-paying contract in sports history up to that point. ==> The ref says this was 1984, not 1981. Also I'd like to see some reference that covers the second part of the sentence.
 * minor prose issue: ...He missed 45 games, and said that ... Johnson returned before the start of the 1981 playoffs, but the Lakers' then-assistant and future head coach Pat Riley later said that...
 * While I'm at it: The Lakers faced the 40–42 Houston Rockets in the Well, certainly nice to have that record but to put it into perspective it would be nice to have the Lakers' record too.
 * Thanks for taking the time to translate, and point out the errors, which I think I've fixed. Good luck on your translation. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Coaching record

 * Thank you, I'm making good progress there. Here's another issue: I'm not sure which source is wrong but someone must be wrong about his coaching career. Nba.com states "The team was fighting for a playoff berth when Johnson assumed the reins, and Los Angeles immediately won five straight. But after the club lost five of its next six outings, Johnson announced that he would not return as coach the following season.". Well, take a look at basketball-reference: Rather looks like the other way around; that he won five out of his first six games but not five straight and then lost all other games. So when exactly did he decide to give up his coaching career? Please investigate this and correct the article accordingly. Regards, --X-Weinzar (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Image with him in uniform
This article will be a featured article in a few days and there's no photo of him in uniform? Are there any free ones out there?DavidRF (talk) 22:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not that I know of... Chensiyuan (talk) 02:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ . . . Article now has him rebounding against Larry Bird. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Artikel des Tages
Is this a coincidence? Do you coordinate these things?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptseite


 * There is no coordination involved. This is indeed pure coincidence. --Voyager (talk) 08:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ofcourse it is not coincidence.. Today is his birthday :) ... --Reinoutr (talk) 17:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Images
Why isn't there any images of Magic playing in this article? Burningview (talk) 13:48, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can find a free image of him doing so, please put it in. So far, efforts have been fruitless. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

What about: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafamado/2717299999/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.130.95 (talk) 08:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The image indicates that it is a photo of Magic from 1987, however he is clean shaven in the picture. I am a long-time Lakers fan, and watched Magic play throughout the 1980's. It wasn't until a couple of years later that Magic decided to get rid of the signature goatee that he wore during much of the prime of his career. The following article from SI appears to support that it was indeed the spring of 1989 that he made that change: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1068404/index.htm

Of course, that doesn't help us specifically identify the date of the photo, but it seems safe to assume that it's from the time period from 1989-1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.185.148.90 (talk) 18:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅ . . . Article now has him rebounding against Larry Bird. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Hidden ad should be removed
Hi, let me first say that I am HIV+ myself and one of the companies mentioned in the article makes one of the drugs that have been saving my life for more than a decade now. None the less I find it irrelevant at best to specify who makes the drugs Magic Johnson takes. To me it is obvious hiding an ad in an article.

The formulation I am talking about is: To prevent his HIV infection from becoming AIDS, Johnson takes a daily combination of drugs from GlaxoSmithKline and Abbott Laboratories.

It could instead have said something like: To prevent his HIV infection from becoming AIDS, Johnson receives combination therapy [with a link to an article on the matter which is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAART ].

The fact that Magic Johnson is promoting these companies is irrelevant to what medication he takes. These two subjects doesn't belong together. In fact HIV-medication can have very serious and deadly complications and long term adverse affects such as cardiac problems and cancer. Nobody in his right mind takes drugs based on a promotional deal but on sound medical advice. I guess that goes for Magic Johnson as well.

To be clear I don't see any problem mentioning what ever promotion he is involved in like the following setence: He has advertised GlaxoSmithKline's drugs,[92] and partnered with Abbott Laboratories to publicize the fight against AIDS in African American communities.

But I do see a problem in connecting specific companies to whatever his current treatment regime is within a wikipedia article. It is simply not relevant.

(Babediba (talk) 14:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Yes check.svg Done Agree, and done. Debresser (talk) 15:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Business Ventures
Why is there nothing here about his entrepreneurship? I have an article backing it up but don't know how best to incorporate it. http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/entre/2008-12-07-magic-johnson-urban-business_N.htm BenW (talk) 07:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Magic Johnson enterprises is briefly mentioned in the "Off the court" section. What kind of details would you like to add? Zagalejo^^^ 07:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Johnson, along with former Ohio State running back Archie Griffin, is an owner of the Cincinnati Reds Class-A affiliate Dayton Dragons minor league baseball team. http://espn.go.com/minor-league-baseball/story/_/id/6796623/dayton-dragons-celebrate-record-sellout-streakJcnewt01 (talk) 04:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

In July of 2011, Johnson announced that he would be joining Detroit Venture Partners (DVP) as a general partner. DVP is a Detroit, Michigan based venture capital firm that invests in seed and early-stage technology companies primarily located in the heart of downtown Detroit. Johnson also committed to investing an undisclosed multi-million dollar amount into the investment fund. Alexlinebrink (talk) 13:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

25-year contract?!
Are you sure that's the duration of the contract fron 1981? Maybe it's 5-year contract? Please reply me. YHYH (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, it's 25 years. Check the source. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

South Park Episode
Johnson is heavily featured in the AIDS-related story of South Park Season 12, Episode 1 "Tonsil Trouble". Johnson did not himself participate. 70.123.130.95 (talk) 08:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why is it worth mentioning? Dabomb87 (talk) 13:57, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Jersey Retirement
I added Magic's jersey retirement in the infobox as it is in Kareem's, but Kareem may be a special case since his jersey was retired *by two teams*. LUxlii (talk) 16:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

NBA Statistics - Career highs
In this section, Magic is listed as having had 5 blocks against the San Antonio Spurs on Dec 23, 1986. However, he played Sacramento that night as shown by the other career highs he had on Dec 23rd, 1986 in Sacramento and on http://www.sacbee.com/2011/02/23/3425613/gallery-the-sacramento-kings-greatest.html This page lists him as having 0 blocks that night. Could anyone find out if he had his 5 blocks against San Antonio on a different night? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.163.19 (talk) 20:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You might want to ask Hoops gza. Zagal e jo^^^ 05:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Dream Team
I followed one of the links to "Dream Team" and didn't find what I was looking for. These should be changed to point to 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team instead, since that is an article about, well, the Dream Team. 178.73.222.119 (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks. Zagal e jo^^^ 19:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from, 11 October 2011
Rivalry with Magic Johnson Johnson and Larry Bird were first linked as rivals after Johnson's Michigan State squad defeated Bird's Indiana State team in the 1979 NCAA finals. The rivalry continued in the NBA, and reached its climax when Boston and Los Angeles met in three out of four NBA Finals from 1984 to 1987. Johnson asserted that for him, the 82-game regular season was composed of 80 normal games, and two Lakers–Celtics games. Similarly, Bird admitted that Johnson's daily box score was the first thing he checked in the morning.[80] Several journalists hypothesized that the Johnson–Bird rivalry was so appealing because it represented many other contrasts, such as the clash between the Lakers and Celtics, between Hollywood flashiness ("Showtime") and Boston/Indiana blue collar grit ("Celtic Pride"), and between blacks and whites.[109][110] The rivalry was also significant because it drew national attention to the faltering NBA. Prior to Johnson and Bird's arrival, the NBA had gone through a decade of declining interest and low TV ratings.[111] With the two future Hall of Famers, the league won a whole generation of new fans,[112] drawing both traditionalist adherents of Bird's dirt court Indiana game and those appreciative of Johnson's public park flair. Sports journalist Larry Schwartz of ESPN asserted that Johnson and Bird saved the NBA from bankruptcy.[12] Despite their on-court rivalry, Johnson and Bird became close friends during the filming of a 1984 Converse shoe advertisement that depicted them as enemies.[113][114] Johnson appeared at Bird's retirement ceremony in 1992, and described Bird as a "friend forever";[80] during Johnson's Hall of Fame ceremony, Bird formally inducted his old rival.[112]

24.104.32.5 (talk) 19:56, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 21:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

QUESTION: This section of TALK is now olde; where do we stand? Just asking, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:35, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * QUICK-ANSWER: I just took a quick read of the writing here (rather good, very informative) and then looked for writing in the Article about the friendship of Magic-Bird, not finding it. The edit request to include what was suggested has merit, especially the last few sentences here. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC) PS: The links would need to be re=checked.

Errors in article - poorly written
To name but a few errors - Sexton High School was never ALL-black (African-American) nor ALL-white (caucasian), instead, perhaps it was "largely" or "significantly" one or the other (stay away from absolutes unless you know that it was indeed 100% this or that)... very sloppy and misleading draftsmanship. Another issue - Magic Johnson did not "return" to the Breslin Center as it did not exist when he was at MSU. It was built a decade after he left. It is fair to say that he "returned to MSU to play at the Breslin Center..." but not that he returned to his old arena which the Breslin Center is not. I have not taken a closer look but, if I did, I am confident that I would find other errors or sloppy details in this article... Please correct.

In the barnstorming section, it reads that he both played with the Canberra Cannons, and also defeated them. In fact, they defeated the Michigan State Spartans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.109.198 (talk) 14:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Any article issues here?
Other than one dead link, is the current version flawed right now? --George Ho (talk) 08:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you be more specific on what you are concerned with?—Bagumba (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No major concerns as of now. I just hope that there aren't any other BLP and sourcing issues here, especially in general. --George Ho (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC


 * I was so disappointed that there is nothing written about Mr. Johnson's personal life as a man. Is he married? When did he get married and to whom? Has he ever divorced?  How many children does he have and when were they born?  Is his parents still alive?  How has life been for him as a family man?  It would be a wonderful article to have included this information for the reader to learn that regardless of Magic Johnson's health status he has been able to fulfill his life in other ways than just being a promiscuous pro basketball player and how he has invested his earnings.
 * There actually is an Off the court section, which has a good deal of information on his personal life and business interests in its various subsections. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Missing details
There seems to be more content and game specifics regarding his touring with Magic Johnson All-Stars than, say, his 85–86 MVP season. A bit surprising for an FA the less-than-comprehensive details here. Even his college-like enthusiasm in his first NBA game is missing, and his close relationship with Jerry Buss.—Bagumba (talk) 21:50, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Magic Johnson's siblings
Is there a good source for the actual number of Magic's siblings. I have seen from 6 to 9 brothers and sisters for him.&#91;&#91;D-free&#93;&#93; (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Here, he is quoted as saying "I had seven brothers and sisters." Zagal e jo^^^ 00:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You know, the more I look at this, the more confused I get. I typed in some of his siblings' names and found a relevant passage in Johnson's own biography: . From there, it would appear that he is one of seven children, not including the stepchildren. I wonder if he was misquoted in the article I linked to earlier. I think I would give more weight to the book. Zagal e jo^^^ 21:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Claims of 1,000 to 20,000
Magic has claimed he has had sexual intercourse with somewhere between 1,000 and 20,000 women. This deserves a mention as people may mistakenly paint this saintly picture of him and because it will explain better why his chances of contracting HIV were much higher than that of an average person.

50/50 HIV test
Is it possible that Johnson was misdiagnosed due the 50/50 accuracy of the HIV test?Gnostics (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

bravery?
It says in the lead, his "bravery" was commended. This is a very subjective term. Whether he was brave or not is completely one's opinion. This should be rephrased.--2607:FB90:2305:60CA:0:4D:6F26:9701 (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Lawsuit
Why is there no mention of Doe V. Johnson where he was sued by Jane Doe after having sex without informing her he was HIV positive?

128.230.143.35 (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Rybread18
 * Feel free to cite reliable sources supporting the change you are proposing.—Bagumba (talk) 17:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/STDs/doe%20v%20johnson.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.143.35 (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:African-American Christians
Could someone please add the category African-American Christians to the page? Thank you. - 108.71.133.201 (talk) 22:59, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Board membership
I just found out that "Magic" is on the Board of Directors of Square Inc. Maybe you should consider adding this to the article

WikiEditCrunch (talk) 15:02, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Kind Regards WEC

Suggested revisions
As this FA page is locked, the following two suggested revisions cannot be made

The first, of the Michigan State University section, is both consistent with how Johnson's freshman season there was treated and legitimate on its own merits.

[ NB: All facts added are from the 1978–79 Michigan State Spartans men's basketball team page. Please note that existing wikilinks in the affected paragraph do not appear below due to a simple cut & paste here from the Magic Johnson page (since an editable form of the active content cannot be reached). An internal link has been added for Larry Bird, his 1st mention in the body of the article; the wikilink to his name in a subsequent section on the Dream Team should be removed. ]

The passage affected by the suggested revision is highlighted in italics:


 * During the 1978–79 season, Michigan State went 26-6 and tied for the Big Ten title. Ranked #3 by the AP at season's end, they swept through the early rounds of the NCAA Tournament en route to the championship game against an undefeated #1 ranked Indiana State team led by senior Larry Bird. In what was the most-watched college basketball game ever,[32] the Spartans defeated the 33-0 Sycamores 75–64, and Johnson was voted Most Outstanding Player of the Final Four.[23] After two years in college, during which he averaged 17.1 points, 7.6 rebounds, and 7.9 assists per game, Johnson entered the 1979 NBA draft.[33]

Also, rather than simply correcting an error in the content of the final passage of the original paragraph previously pointed out here - something of a non sequitur in the flow of the article - it is recommended the item's highlight be relocated here, where the topic is already referenced under the Magic Johnson All-Stars heading.

The affected passage is highlighted in italics:


 * Determined to play competitive basketball despite being out of the NBA, Johnson formed the Magic Johnson All-Stars, a barnstorming team composed of former NBA and college players. In 1994 Johnson joined with former pros Reggie Theus, John Long, Earl Cureton, and Lester Conner, as his team played games in Australia, Israel, South America, Europe, New Zealand, and Japan. They also toured the United States, playing five games against teams from the CBA. In the final game of the CBA series, Magic Johnson had 30 points, 17 rebounds, and 13 assists, leading the All-Stars to a 126–121 victory over the Oklahoma City Cavalry.[118] By the time he returned to the Lakers in 1996, the Magic Johnson All-Stars had amassed a record of 55–0, and Johnson was earning as much as $365,000 per game.[26] Johnson played with the team frequently over the next several years, with possibly the most memorable game occurring in November, 2001. Magic, at the age of 42, played with the All-Stars against his alma mater, Michigan State. Although he had appeared in a celebrity game honoring retiring head coach Jud Heathcoate in 1995[34] - leading all scorers with 39 points - this was Johnson's first meaningful game played in his hometown of Lansing in 22 years. Playing in front of a sold out arena, Johnson had a triple-double and played the entire game, but his all-star team lost to the Spartans by two points. Johnson's half court shot at the buzzer would have won the game, but it fell short.[119][120] On November 1, 2002 Johnson returned to play a second exhibition game against Michigan State. Playing with the Canberra Cannons of Australia's National Basketball League instead of his usual group of players, Johnson's team defeated the Spartans 104–85, as he scored 12 points, with 10 assists and 10 rebounds.[121]

Any assistance on these two edits would be most helpful. 71.233.84.208 (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Position
I am going to remove the position "power forward" as Johnson was overwhelmingly known as a point hard. He occasionally lined up at the 4, but in truth he played briefly at all 5 positions on the court. But he's rightly known as one of the best point guards ever, and as someone who redefined the position. Rikster2 (talk) 22:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Offical biography he did play as power forward in last season, returning and adding reference. Snake bgd 01:06, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with the point of the original change that Magic is primarily a point guard, save for roughly 30 games (his last season) of a 900-game career.—Bagumba (talk) 08:55, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2016
In 2016 Johnson endorsed democratic candidate Hillary Clinton for president via Twitter tweeting out a picture of himself and his wife with the candidate saying "My wife @cjbycookie and I with the next President of the United States"

65.130.211.163 (talk) 15:23, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Datbubblegumdoe[talk – contribs] 02:17, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2016
Magiccjohhnson (talk) 21:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC) CAN I EDIT its important thx
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 21:32, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Featured article review
As editors here are agreed that the article fails two of the Featured article criteria (1b comprehensiveness and 2b structure), should the article be taken to Featured article review? DrKay (talk) 10:56, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll take a shot at making the necessary improvements. The tagged section would seem to be the one that really needs beefing up. While I'm not sure how much detail is appropriate for a two-year executive career, we should at least have a real paragraph on the subject. As for the structure, I think the main issue that was indirectly referred to in a past edit summary is that the "Outside basketball" section has a lot of small subsections that appear stubby. I can understand why one would believe that organization is lacking there. A major improvement can be made by combining some of the smaller subsections. The smallest ones all appear to be connected to his ownership interests in sports teams, so that is where I'll focus my initial efforts. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:24, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I also wonder if the "Relationship with Jerry Buss" section would be better integrated into other revelevant sections as opposed to being a standalone.—Bagumba (talk) 03:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing. That sounds like a fit for the Outside basketball section as well. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 15:18, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the formerly tagged section a bit and made the structure of the article more logical. That should take care of the major concerns raised here. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 19:18, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2020
I think that we should add the nickname on the sidebar. TheJackBasket777 (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  JTP (talk • contribs) 17:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

First paragraph
Can one of y’all substitute the 2nd sentence for this: “Johnson was rated the greatest NBA point guard of all time by ESPN in 2007.”[6] Or just incorporate that statement so the audience can see it first when they look up Magic Johnson. AfroWorld33 (talk) 07:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia. I believe you should have permission now to edit the article yourself. That being said, it's probably too limiting to be in the lead as stated per WP:INTEXT, as I believe he's widely considered the top PG, not just by ESPN. The  Career achievements section should be updated and sourced to reflect that too.—Bagumba (talk) 08:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I made the statement in the lead more general and added another point guard ranking to the body to give the lead sentence a stronger foundation. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 18:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Awards and honors
Why are we removing the list of awards and honors received by Magic Johnson - especially when each and every one of them were sourced?

Looks to me like just has a personal issue with me, and thinks that he is better than me...this is just like the Cavs article...he flipped out over my edits there too. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Long story short, the only reason removed them to start with is because he felt they weren't sourced sufficiently...OK, fair point, so I did what I was asked to do and find references, and after doing a little homework, I made sure all the bases were covered, and that seemed to settle things with Giants2008.  There was was no dispute with Giants2008 - he just told me to fix what he felt needed fixing, and that was reasonable enough.  Then Sabbatino comes out of nowhere and blows it up, essentially saying "leave it out because I said so".  That doesn't fly...if someone wants to remove perfectly sourced material, they have to come up with a legitimate reason.  Giants2008 had an issue with the sourcing, so I took his advice and fixed it...that's fine.  Sabbatino removing it just to play "big man on campus" - that's something else entirely. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Bottom line is this, if you remove something and have a specific reason for doing so (references or whatever else), I'll listen to that all day long, because all you're doing is saying "you can be better", and that's fine. If you remove something just to try your weight around and say "Me boss!", then we're gonna have an issue. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You are supposed to follow WP:BRD, which clearly says that you must start a discussion when you are reverted. And has reverted your edits, but you reinstated them without even starting the discussion anywhere. So no, I do not have any personal issues with you, because you are going against policies. In addition, I did not "come out of nowhere", because this page is on my Watchlist so I see every edit made when I check my Watchlist. Furthermore, get familiar with what WP:PERSONAL is, because that is a completely different thing than you are implying. What you are doing here is WP:HOUNDING, because you singled me out more than once in this post so I advise you to stop. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

If anybody is hounding anybody, you are hounding me. I find it very interesting that any time I make an edit to a basketball related article, you are right there almost in my back pocket coming out of the weeds and instantly reverting me. It almost feels like you appointed yourself the Big Daddy Grand Poobah of all basketball articles, and no one else can play in your sandbox. And you can quote WP:whatever all day long...street smarts and the smell test say it's you who has an issue with me because I dare to enter your "kingdom". Vjmlhds (talk) 17:20, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Me and you have three pages in common that we both edited in the last month so no, I am not "coming out of the weeds and instantly reverting you". The fact that I have many pages on my Watchlist does not mean that I am following someone. In addition, I patrol basketball-related pages daily. You never discussed the issues with so do not make it seem like I am responsible for your failure to start a discussion when it was needed. You should really go get some fresh air and WP:COOLdown, because all you have been doing since the start of this "discussion" is making WP:PERSONAL attacks towards me. Should you continue making personal attacks (for which you were blocked more than once) then you will be reported and I hope your block will be permanent this time. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Giants2008 told me what he thought needed to be done in his edit summary, and I did it. Just because we didn't have a formal "by the book" discussion on the talk page, doesn't mean that we didn't discuss the matter. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * BTW...when you tell somebody that you hope they get blocked permanently, how is that not a personal attack? That is wishing ill will on someone by basically telling them "I hope you get yours."  Vjmlhds (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Discussion "by the book" is supposed to happen so no, you did not discuss anything. In addition, I am not going to comment here until you get familiar with WP:PERSONAL, because you clearly do not understand the policy. – Sabbatino (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You are the one who needs to read up on WP:Personal, as it states "There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack" - basically meaning it's in the eye of the beholder. Now when you say you hope I get blocked permanently, I don't think I'm out of line in thinking it's a personal dig at me.  Like I said before, it's like saying to someone "I hope you get yours". Vjmlhds (talk) 05:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2020
Change 10 NBA championships to 11. Magic Johnson has 11 NBA Championships as of 12/26/2020 per his latest Instagram and Twitter posts, not 10 as the page currently says. https://twitter.com/MagicJohnson/status/1342897649532416001 Caleb.longenecker1 (talk) 21:30, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Melmann 00:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We would want an independent source. At any rate, he apparently got a ring for the 2020 championship, but he had left the team after 2018–19. I wouldn't equate winning a championship as being synonymous with receiving a ring.—Bagumba (talk) 03:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Weight
How can a big strapping guy who is 6-9" tall weigh only 220 lbs? That does not make sense. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  08:02, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The same way Manute Bol who was 7ft 6in and weighed only 200 lb. So what is your point? This is WP:NOTFORUM to raise such questions. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * In fairness, I couldn't see where the weight was sourced in the article, so I went ahead and added a cite to the infobox to back up the figure. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 17:34, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

"one of the greatest"
I see that you restored text to the lead that Johnson is "generally considered to be one of the greatest players in NBA history". To the casual reader, it's redundant to him being in the Hall of Fame or being named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. I'm going to guess that you're trying to imply that he's in the top-5 or 10 or on the "Mount Rushmore" of basketball, but that's not how that reads. More nuanced rankings, outside of saying someone is "the greatest", are probably better explained in the body, rather than repeating what being in the HOF or among the 50 Greatest already implies.03:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2021
Under NBA legacy, it is stated that Johnson is second all time in triple-doubles only to Oscar Robertson but on October 26th 2019 Johnson was surpassed by Russell Westbrook. 67.193.76.146 (talk) 00:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 01:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2021
i need to edit this page 108.31.249.125 (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.—Bagumba (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Political affiliation query.
Greetings:

I see under POLITICS that

"Johnson is a supporter of the Democratic Party. In 2006, he publicly endorsed Phil Angelides for Governor of California."

There is no mention of Johnson's political affiliation from before 2006. In a Washington Post article about conservatives who are now touting a specious comparison of NBA player Kyrie Irving's refusal to get C-19 vaccination with Magic Johnson's playing basketball in the 1990s with HIV, one of the reader commenters wrote that Johnson used to be a Republican. Is there information about this? He has never sounded like one to me whenever I've seen him speak about politics.

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 00:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I did a Google search for "Magic Johnson Republican" and couldn't find any obvious support for the claim in question, or anything saying he changed his party affiliation. In fairness, political stuff is a bit above my pay grade, so I didn't study the issue too deeply. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:44, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Championships as a minority owner
I'm gonna post on the talkpages of NBA and NFL projects since this can potentially impact both projects to refer to this. For athletes like Magic, Aaron Rodgers, and Russell Wilson who have all purchased minority stakes in professional sports teams who won a championship during their minority ownership, should these championships be included in career highlights section of the infobox and/or the awards section along with championships won in their sports, MVPs, all-star games/pro bowls, etc.? I posted a discussion on NFL talk a while back and got no response and had a borderline edit war with another editor after another editor who added these things to Aaron Rodgers page after the Bucks won the finals and we didn't go anywhere trying to discuss this. I've seen other editors remove these things indicating some editors don't think they should be included. My argument against these inclusions is minority ownership in a sports team is literally no different than investing in stocks. You invest a little bit of money and can get some back based on profits. Minority owners rarely, if ever, have any say in roster, front office, and coaching staff decisions. It's also not even clear, from what I can find, if minority owners get championship rings. Should it be mentioned in the article period? Of course, but it should be left in sections talking about the investment, not in places discussing their playing or coaching accomplishments. Now this obviously doesn't apply to someone like Michael Jordan who is the primary owner and makes roster and personnel decisions, just specifically minority owners. I feel this should be established now as minority stakes seem to be a popular investment for athletes now.-- Rockchalk 717 22:36, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I support your removal. Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. A championship as a minority owner is rarely defining. As part of the lead, its inclusion would also run contrary to MOS:LEADBIO: The lead section should summarise the life and works of the person with due weight.—Bagumba (talk) 08:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with Rockchalk717 and Bagumba. The other athletes that come to my mind are Shaquille O'Neal and Dwyane Wade. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What about in the Awards and honors section? That was the bigger question to me.-- Rockchalk 717 23:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nobody is arguing that titles won as a minority owner shouldn't go in infoboxes...I'm with all of you there. The issue seems to be that Rockchalk wants to just completely wipe them out of existence and not even mention them in an awards and honors section.  In the cases of Magic, Rogers, and Wilson, there are sources verifying the claims they all have to titles won in their "side gigs".  We're getting into a debate of editors' personal feelings over what makes a champion.  If the statement is made that Aaron Rodgers is an NBA Champion via his ownership stakes in the Bucks, and there are a half dozen sources backing it up, then some random Wikipedia editor can't say he isn't just because it doesn't match his qualifications.  In Magic's case, he himself counts his ownership rings amongst his lifetime accomplishments, again, with verification he does indeed do so.  Rockchalk (or any other editor...not trying to pick on him specifically, but he is the one who brought it up) can't erase things because they don't match his criteria - that is WP:OR.  If there are sources to back up the claim of minority owners getting credited as champions, then that's it, they're champions...not Wiki's job to decide who is and isn't a champion.  Someone is credited as a champion, and there are good reliable sources backing it up, that should be ballgame, otherwise it comes down to the whims of editors based on what they think makes a champion ("Screw the sources...I say otherwise") - kind of an anti-Wiki way of thinking, no? Vjmlhds (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Let me address awards and honors sections specifically just so we're all clear. Those sections merely denote achievements and accolades one has attained throughout their life.  Two things matter - is one credited with an accomplishment, and can it be verified?  If the answer to both questions are yes, then the argument ends.  Rockchalk's issue seems to be how Rogers, Magic, and Wilson got their titles with their "side projects".  When it comes to merely listing awards or accolades, the how really is irrelevant, all that is relevant is does one have the hardware, and can you prove it.   Look at Blaine Gabbert...he's the backup quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.  Last year he played in only 3 games and threw 6 passes in garbage time - yet he is credited with a Super Bowl ring just the same as Tom Brady is.  Should Gabbert not be credited with a ring because he really didn't do anything to contribute to it?  It's the same as these people who have small stakes in these teams.  Because they have a piece of the team, they get a ring and get credited as being a champion when the team wins a title.  As long as the claim can be verified, then they are champions, and no amount of personal spin some random Wikipedia editor says can change that.  When the argument boils down to one's personal qualifications about what makes a champion, the argument ends, because it stops being about what references and sources say, and more about pushing their own beliefs.  Can't have that.  Like I said, keep them out of infoboxes all day long...fine and dandy, but in a broader awards and honor section, which merely denotes the hardware, it most certainly belongs - it's an accolade, it was achieved, and it can be verified. For Wiki, that should be it.  Everything else is personal opinion. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And to tie up some other issues - MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE doesn't apply here because no one is trying to include anything in the infobox...keep it out, fine by me. MOS:LEADBIO is not an issue because leads should just be a quick primer anyway, so if you don't want to include certain things in the lead, then all good here.  But to not include accolades in an awards and honors section in the meat of the article (usually towards the end) - the purpose of which IS to note accolades achieved in one's lifetime - just because one doesn't like how one achieves said accolade goes against WP:NPOV and has inklings of WP:OR ("Though the sources say X is credited as a champion I say he isn't because it doesn't meet my criteria of what makes a champion."). When you have arguments like "Well Michael Jordan should get credit because he's more involved, but Magic/Rodgers/Wilson shouldn't because they're less involved", then we get into the realm of personal opinions/criteria.  Just look at the Brady/Gabbert analogy...one certainly did more than the other to win the ring, but both get credited with the ring equally.  Just how life works - if you get credited with doing something, and have verifiable proof to back it up, then it's game over, you get the credit.  Everything else is purely subjective, which last I checked is something which should be avoided around these parts. Vjmlhds (talk) 03:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yet again you are failing to understand my objections. You keep talking about "dozens of sources calling him an NBA champion" but seem to completely and totally miss that I'm saying they had literally nothing to do with championships. Minority ownership is nothing more or nothing less than an investment, again just like the example I used on my talkpage as my owning stock with my employer. Bagumba even stated " A championship as a minority owner is rarely defining". That is an admin agreeing with my points. You're staying that I'm trying to "erase" the championships when I explicitly said multiple times I don't object them being mentioned in the article. My objections are being included like they're an equal accomplishment to the athlete's accomplishments as an athlete. Can you even verify they received a championship ring as a minority owner? As far as I know, they do not receive one and therefor should not receive equal mention as their accomplishments as a player.-- Rockchalk 717 06:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

If you were looking for verification, you must not have looked very far, because here's Russell Wilson's ring from the Seattle Sounders after winning the MLS Cup...BTW the reference is in Wilson's article. And if you actually look through Aaron Rodgers' and Magic Johnson's articles instead of just blindly deleting things, you'd see those references to verify the rings. You are just proving my point...the accolades achieved in their side jobs don't meet your standards of what a championship is. Not Wiki's job to decide what title is more important than others. Do they have the award, and can you prove it - everything else is irrelevant, because it's all subjective. Vjmlhds (talk) 13:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There might be other coverage, but the Sounders' website is not WP:INDEPENDENT.—Bagumba (talk) 02:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ask, and ye shall receive - here's a story from USA Today talking about Wilson getting a ring from the Sounders Vjmlhds (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

For Magic Johnson, assuming the owner championships meet WP:DUE, it seems promotional to combine as "10-time NBA champion (five as a player, five as owner/executive", as oppose to solely individual listings by role.—Bagumba (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Here's a story from ABC News where they credit Magic as a 10-time NBA champion, so giving him credit for 10 is something that is in the stratosphere. Vjmlhds (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Are there others? A one-time reference is probably not WP:DUE, though at least it's not WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 04:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here it is straight out of the horse's mouth, and one other outside source for good measure. Also if you hadn't seen it, I added a USA Today article about Russell Wilson (in the part where the discussion focused on him) Vjmlhds (talk) 05:07, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The horse isn't independent, and I'm not familiar enough with Essentially Sports to call it an WP:RS. Basically, if there's another RS, I wouldn't oppose "10-time" for Magic, but others might think differently. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 05:17, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * How's this? Vjmlhds (talk) 05:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

another log on the fire Vjmlhds (talk) 05:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding the high school site and Bar Down, the policy WP:REDFLAG advises caution for Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources—Bagumba (talk) 05:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought I was ready to respond but I'm too annoyed by 's constant misunderstanding of the points I'm trying to make and acting like I'm trying to remove any mention of the championships. I don't want to let my frustrations get in the way of having a productive discussion. I'll check back in on this tomorrow evening.-- Rockchalk 717 06:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand your points perfectly - in your mind, championships won as a minority owner aren't equal to those won as a player because of the difference in hands on involvement, and shouldn't be listed in the same breath. My point is that none of that matters, because if they are credited with getting a ring, and the sources back it up, then it's game - set - match.  Wikipedia as a whole and Wikpedians individually don't get to set the standard for the value of a championship - not our job, and not our place.  Aaron Rodgers' contributions to the Bucks are chipping in a few bucks (pardon the pun) and buying a small piece of the team.  I'm not arguing that.  However, that is enough for him to be credited as being an NBA Champion with the Bucks, and the sources back it up.  Likewise Russel Wilson and the Sounders, ditto Magic Johnson with the Dodgers and Sparks (and his Laker rings as an owner/exec).  That's why these guys do this...to fluff up their resumes.  They chip in a few bucks to buy small pieces of these teams, so they can put "Co-owner of the Walla-Walla Walruses" next to their name, and if the teams win a title, they can get a ring due to being a part owner.  Great gig if you can get it, and God bless America.  I never said these guys got their fingernails dirty and worked long hours making major decisions.  But that is irrelevant - they do just enough to be able to get a ring if the team does something and the people who do matter (the team itself) makes the call, and it can be verified.  Tom Brady did loads more to get the Buccaneers to the Super Bowl than Blaine Gabbert did, but they both equally get credited with a ring.  Just how life works...some do more tangible work than others, but when the team wins a collective accolade, all get credited equally with a ring.  No amount of getting up on a soapbox and questing for purity is gonna change that.  Long story short - a ring is a ring...doesn't matter how you got it as long as you can flash the bling. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Here is Magic with his World Series ring from the Dodgers winning the 2020 World Series. You'll see that his wife Cookie also has a ring, and that is due her also having a sliver of ownership in her own right, but to the topic at hand, Magic did get a ring from the Dodgers as a part owner, so when he calls himself a World Series Champion, he has the hardware to prove it. Vjmlhds (talk) 05:16, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I disagree on why athletes but into sports franchises. As I keep saying, it's an investment. It's like, just throwing a random name out there, Kyle Turley investing in a CBD business. It's a way for them to spend their millions and make more millions on top of it with something they are passionate about. That's why some sources actually refer to it as an investment. In fact, the mentions of Patrick Mahomes minority ownership in the Royals and Sporting KC are in a section entitled "sports investments" (I did not add that section myself). I'll tell you what, provide me a reliable source (not some of the ones you passed off as a source when Bagumba asked you for one) that includes minority ownership championships with their (Magic, Rodgers, Russ) playing accomplishments, and I'll concede and add the championships back myself personally. Because the sources provided in the articles don't include them with their accomplishments or the websites have questionable reliability. Yes the bar down website includes a tweet from Magic himself, but I think that makes it not independent if they are using his tweet for why they are saying that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockchalk717 (talk • contribs) 05:23, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Challenge accepted - - Here's 4 regarding Aaron Rodgers (from Yahoo, CBS Sports, ESPN, and NESN - which by the way are all in his article). Here's one from USA Today regarding Russell Wilson and the Sounders, and here's one from ABC News where they credit Magic as a 10-time NBA Champion. Here is Wilson's ring he received from the Sounders... ... and Magic with his World Series ring he got from the Dodgers. All told, that makes 6 mainstream media outlets all recognizing Magic, Rodgers, and Wilson as champions in their side gigs, as well as physical proof that they did get actual rings with their names on them from the teams...outside of signing a contract in blood, what more could you want? Vjmlhds (talk) 05:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * My general objection still is cases like Magic, summing up titles where an owner is in the same sport he played. No problem listing them by role (player, coach, exec, owner) separately, and not in the lead or infobox. Magic having 10 titles seems to only be in the same ABC source you've mentioned before, failing WP:DUE. Sorry, I don't know how to be clearer, but sources like Amomama.com are not an obvious WP:RS.—Bagumba (talk) 07:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, here's something interesting...Magic now has 11 rings from the Lakers, as he received one for the 2019-2020 title the team won in the bubble. It details that though Magic wasn't a part of the organization at the time the title was won, as he was the one who convinced LeBron to sign with the team (while still an exec at that point), he got a ring out of respect.  So this article verifies the 10 we've been talking about, and the 11th he got as an "executive emeritus" (for lack of a better term) because he brought #23 to town.  What does that do? Vjmlhds (talk) 13:45, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The concept of equating "rings" with "championships" gets complicated, because teams can give rings to whomever they want. This reminds me of the situation with Anderson Varejão, where people wanted to call him a 2016 champion even though he played against the winning team in that year's finals. The key thing to remember is that we can use some editorial judgement with what we choose to include here. Just because a source exists to support a certain statement doesn't mean we are bound to reflect that statement. The real world doesn't always lend itself to the neat classifications you see in Wikipedia articles. Zagal e jo (talk) 04:38, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "Editorial judgement" = putting one's own interpretation on things, which would contradict WP:NPOV - no? When you say (paraphrasing) "Just because the source says X, doesn't mean we have to abide by it", isn't that just a license to make it a free for all for people's own takes?  The team is considered to have won the championship, and thus the team can then give the rings whoever they feel was part of them getting to the promised land - the old "to the victor goes the spoils" axiom as it were.  So if the team gives you a ring, that signifies they consider you as part of the championship team (regardless of how much tangible work you actually did), and the ring is the physical hardware to represent it.  The whole point of looking for and including sources is to verify claims and statements, so nobody can say you're just pulling stuff out of certain physical orifices.  When you talk about "editorial judgement", that comes off as code for "screw the sources, I say different, because I know better than the sources."  Forget worms, that opens up cans of anacondas that nobody needs (from admins on down), because then it becomes a big ol' pier six fustercluck. Vjmlhds (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is editorial judgement at all levels of Wikipedia. People routinely make decisions about the balance of information in an article, the reliability of sources, etc. There’s not a specific guideline for every situation. Lots of things ultimately get decided because of talk page discussions. Zagal e jo (talk) 05:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Per the policy WP:ONUS: While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Consensus determines content.—Bagumba (talk) 06:04, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

The whole issue started because on editor didn't view championships credited via ownership (especially minority ownership) on the same level as those as credited via being a player. When you talk about ONUS, that is basically saying that no matter how many sources one provides to verify a claim, we (Wikipedians) decide what can and can't get included based on our own preferences. That in many ways leads to slippery slopes, because if consensus says the sky is yellow and the sun is blue, it doesn't mean it is. A lot of Wiki policies contradict each other, and users then cite whichever one best suits them, and uses it almost as a loophole to void an opposing policy. ONUS contradicts NPOV in that one can insert their own take under the guise of ONUS, NPOV means you are simply stating claims that are made with references to back them up. In many ways, Wikipedia has so many policies, they wind up canceling each other out, which then leaves it up to consensus where the users themselves make calls based on their own viewpoints - kinda like gaming the system. Just wondering...is that how Britannicia works? Truthfully, this didn't need THIS much discussion, because merely listing awards and honors is simply documenting accolades one has attained/been credited with throughout their lives (with the proof to verify it). Wikipedia and especially Wikipedians should not be the arbiters of which ones are more important than others, because it's not our job to do so. Wikpedians can't and shouldn't play judge, jury, executioner, doctor, or God. Our job is to simply find info, make sure it's verifiable, and include it to give the subject of the article the most accurate picture we can. Going into all these other directions is simply us going into lanes we shouldn't. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:08, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Add "Often compared with Stephen Curry" or not?
Should we add "Often compared with Stephen Curry" in the same sentence in the lead as "He is often regarded as the greatest point guard of all-time." or not? Here are some sources for the comparison.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/magic-johnson-vs-stephen-curry-warriors-lakers-stats/cafi69k0wpymkpoq1a0tsvam

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/stephen-curry-vs-magic-johnson-career-highs-comparison

https://www.strictlybythenumbers.com/compare/stephen_curry_vs_magic_johnson

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/stephen-curry-is-on-track-to-pass-magic-johnson-as-the-greatest-point-guard-of-all-time

Thanks!  MasterMatt12  💬 ● Contributions 16:34, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

"After protests from his fellow players..."
Ambiguous statement in the introduction. Were the players protesting against Johnson (for example, saying he didn't deserve the MVP award) or in support of him (for example, saying he was risking his health by returning to play)? Billfalls (talk) 00:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Added a brief clarification in the lead. There probably shouldn't be too much on it in the lead as it is supposed to be a summary of the body, but the extra addition should make it clearer. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 17:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2023
B&W photo of Pat Riley and Magic Johnson incorrectly identifies the third person in the photo as Jerry West. That individual is not Jerry West, and that citation should be removed. Goyato (talk) 00:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The source the image was taken from says Pat Riley, Earvin "Magic" Johnson and Jerry West at the Century Plaza, Century City, 1989 ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 00:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Assuming it's this photo, that is Jerry West with Pat Riley and Magic. The source the image comes from says so as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not Jerry West. – 2 . O . Boxing  01:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The source is wrong. This was West in 1988, a year before the photo in question. – 2 . O . Boxing  01:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Billionaire
Should be added that he is a billionaire according to Forbes.com & CNN. 65.88.88.56 (talk) 22:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)


 * It was already at —Bagumba (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)