Talk:Magnus Gabriel De la Gardie

De la Gardie paternity
Since his mother Ebba is known to have remained the mistress of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden from 1613 to his death in 1632, even after her marriage in 1618 and his in 1620, why is it considered certain that the first five of her De la Gardie children were not the King's biological children? When Ebba married Jacob de la Gardie, she was marrying her ex-lover's first cousin-once-removed, since his mother was a bastard daughter of King John III. Most notably, Ebba's eldest child, Magnus de la Gardie, could have been King Gustavus Adolphus's son. He wed Maria Euphrosyne of Zweibrucken, sister of Charles X of Sweden and niece of Gustavus Adolphus. But Ebba's other De la Gardie children were important in Swedish history, too. I'd just like to know how it can be considered certain that none of them were the King's children? Lethiere (talk) 00:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * By the usual accounts, GA was in love with Ebba Brahe and wanted to marry her, but was not allowed to do so. Who says that she had any kind of sexual relationship with GA to begin with, let alone "is known to have remained [the King's] mistress" until his death? Olaus (talk) 08:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Per Wiki's article on Ebba Brahe: "By the age of 16, in 1613, she was a mistress to the then future king, Gustavus Adolphus; this was by no means an official position, but it was well known in the court...On June 24, 1618 she married Count Jacob De la Gardie, although her relationship with Adolphus continued, (in secret), until his death in 1632." Is it not true that historians generally believe she was the King's mistress? Lethiere (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not aware of historians believing that, no. But I can't prove a negative. Do you have any source, other than an unreferenced article in Wikipedia, that says that she was? Olaus (talk) 09:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoa! I'm interested in an answer to an historical question here that creates an apparent factual discrepancy between Wiki's article on Ebba Brahe, the article on the Brahe family, and the articles on Magnus Gabriel De la Gardie and Jacob de la Gardie. Given that we're not engaged in an edit war over article content, I have no "burden of proof" to meet here. I'm simply raising a question, occasioned by the disrepancy in articles, to which I do not claim to have an answer. I presume that the Ebba Brahe entry says that she had an affair with the King until his death because a Wiki editor believed it. You say you don't. Neither belief is documented as yet. Still, this woman is alleged to be the subject of considerable historical interest -- even of legend -- which attributes quotes to her about her relationship to the King. I'm curious whether there is a consensus that none of Ebba's children were those of Gustavus Adolphus rather than of her husband and, if so, on what grounds that consensus rests. Are you saying that most historians consider that the King was only Ebba's frustrated suitor, rather than her long-time lover? Lethiere (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No need to speak of "edit warring". I have been thinking of doing something about this article but haven't actually touched it yet. As for Ebba Brahe, standard reference works like the article in Svenskt biografiskt lexikon, or the more current but briefer article in Nationalencyklopedin are unanimous in dating the relationship between GA and EB to about 1612 (has already been goin on for some time when first attested in a letter from early 1613) until probably 1615, no later. There is no reason to assume any sexual relationship. He wanted to marry her, but his mother wouldn't allow it, as she wanted an alliance with some foreign house. (In any case, she was not "that kind of girl"; royal mistresses tended to come from the lower or middle strata, like GA's known mistress Margareta Slots, with whom he had a relationship in 1615 and who was the daughter of a Dutch merchant. With EB, who came from a leading family closely related to the royal house, marriage would have been the only option.)


 * There is a more general issue with the quality of articles on Swedish history in the English Wikipedia (the Swedish Wikipedia is only a little better), and relying on one to modify another is not a good idea. Olaus (talk) 18:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that info is helpful. If the general view is that Ebba Brahe was not the King's mistress, and that his suit for her hand ended before her marriage, it looks like Ebba's article needs to be corrected -- preferably with citations -- and that the de la Gardie articles are alreight. To facilitate that process, I'm copying this discussion to Ebba's talk page. Thanks. Lethiere (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

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