Talk:Magtymguly Pyragy/Archive 1

Quotation

 * "Know that what I built,
 * Is the peg of this world.
 * Forever it will stay independent,
 * This is the edifice of the Türkmen."

I removed this. Can somebody cite the reference? It just makes no sense. I read Pyragy's poems. As a Turkmen, I do not believe this is correct translation. thanks. --Atamyrat 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Portrait
Article says picture is portrait of Magtymguly Pyragy. This it WRONG. There's no any evidence of how poet looked like and portrait was painted how painter imagined him. So I changed image title to "imaginary portrait or Magtymguly Pyragy". --Atamyrat 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Article says picture is portrait of Magtymguly Pyragy. This it WRONG. There's no any evidence of how poet looked like and portrait was painted how painter imagined him. So I changed image title to "imaginary portrait or Magtymguly Pyragy". --Atamyrat 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Wiki
Is there someone who can write about Mahtumkulu in Turkish Wiki? He must be there! Thank you! --User:Osman 13:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.174.226.86 (talk)


 * ✅--Rapsar (talk) 11:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140517154325/http://www.medeniyet.gov.tm/index.php/en/biography-en to http://www.medeniyet.gov.tm/index.php/en/biography-en
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20140517100523/http://www.mfa.gov.tm/en/news-en/1108-participation-of-the-delegation-of-turkmenistan-in-the-arrangements-in-honor-of-the-290th-anniversary-of-magtymguly-pyragy to http://www.mfa.gov.tm/en/news-en/1108-participation-of-the-delegation-of-turkmenistan-in-the-arrangements-in-honor-of-the-290th-anniversary-of-magtymguly-pyragy

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Soviet Union-1991-Coin-1-Magtymguly.jpg

Thanks for your masterly review
Thank you for your complete professionalism and slick review. I will take everything you advised into account and will start implementing them immediately. Thank you once again! Take care! -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire  06:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Comments

 * Pyragy's year of birth and death are unknown. See
 * Every Turkmen source is subject to state-censorship (esp. post-Soviet era, and when they are produced by scholars under the direct employment of Government) to the extent of not allowing any private press. All such works need to be treated as primary sources. Trained scholars can read between the lines (as in the above publication) but we cannot. As Taylor shows, a lot of Ashirov's work is nonsense and aimed to serve a political purpose.
 * Unrelated comments: A comparison of the above paper with Taylor's preface to Magtymguly: Poems from Turkmenistan (2014) is a clear evidence of why corporate funding is always harmful (and unethical.)


 * We know nothing whatsoever about his life apart from whatever might be interpreted from his works — no primary sources survive. Much of the details is Ashyrov's (or other Turkmens') fantasy based on lore. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * More later. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging as the GA reviewer. The nominator has been already notified. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree with the above statement. Annagurban Ashyrov holds PhD in philology and had worked at the Turkmen National Institute of Manuscripts for decades. His research and publications on the subject started primarily during the Soviet era, and his latest works are merely based on the research he conducted prior to 1984. Most information found in his books are well sourced and contain numerous citations from relevant articles and books of such Soviet academicians and authors as A.Samoylov, V.Lebedev, V.Barthold and H.Suleymanov (see Ashyrov's 2014 book, materials of which were used in the article). However, if you were looking for sources of "western" origin in the page and found almost none, it's down to the fact that Magtymguly's life and poetry was not studied as extensively by western scolars as other prominent literary figures of Central Asia such as Nava'i or Fuzuli for some uncertain reasons. However, I still would not have employed such strong wording as: fantasy based on lore, nonsense and etc. -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire  05:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I am also removing your biased, "better source needed" tag, that you placed even after the info taken from Rafis Abazov, Youssef Azemoun and Bakulin (the works of the first two were even cited by your adored Paul M. Taylor). -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire  06:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Your (or my) personal opinions are immaterial - I had provided a high-quality source, in support of my claims. Ph.D. scholars, who had worked for decades in the National Institute of Manuscripts, have held multiple conferences on Ruhnama and claimed extraordinary things. Publications by the Miras Institut have traced back Niyazov to Prophet Muhammad. Shall we use them in our articles on the subjects? Acc. to policies, the tags stay unless the underlying issues are satisfactorily resolved.
 * This is not exactly a problem restricted to Turkmenistan - consult Shoshana Keller's works on the production (and circulation) of history in post-soviet Uzbekistan. Fwiw, it is not that I don't use Soviet (or post-Soviet) sources in writing articles. And, I do not adore any scholar - such tangent comments distract from the issue. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:30, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I purposely removed my last post (you have restored it) since I hadn't had time yet to erase those zillions of tags you vigorously placed at the end of almost each sentence. I would've certainly reposted it later, don't worry. However, I believe that your tags are there to serve only one purpose - to discredit the whole article. Also, I have a strong intention to request another GA reviewer for the Merv article in a little while since I strongly believe that you might have a foregone conclusion regarding it and that is: "failed for GA". (I learned it later that was exactly what you did). Also, I have noticed an interesting pattern in your history of contributions, which makes me think that you have been tracing me all the way ever since you reached this page (see your history of contributions, articles such as that about Tuqaq and etc, where you choose to call avoiding close paraphrasing as misrepresentation). I don't have to explain it to you that it's (pursuing someone) not in line with Wikipedia guidelines. -- Visioncurve  Timendi causa est nescire  11:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * These comments are irrelevant - the talk-page is only about resolving content-disputes. Analysis of my motivations or activities at other articles belong elsewhere - probably at WP:AN and other talk-pages. One of my first articles was on Cinema of Turkmenistan, and most of the content at Ruhnama was drafted by me; I have also created about a dozen articles on Turkmen places etc. and my user-page mentions something relevant. Adding one more source, in my support:
 * These comments are irrelevant - the talk-page is only about resolving content-disputes. Analysis of my motivations or activities at other articles belong elsewhere - probably at WP:AN and other talk-pages. One of my first articles was on Cinema of Turkmenistan, and most of the content at Ruhnama was drafted by me; I have also created about a dozen articles on Turkmen places etc. and my user-page mentions something relevant. Adding one more source, in my support:

Our article notes, His father was a prominent poet, [..], a local teacher and mullah, and was highly regarded by his people.
 * Youssef Azemoun, who teaches at some barely-known university and claims to have had remortgaged his house to publish the second (and final) volume of Journal of Makhtumkuli Studies, accuses Chodzko of misleading his readers. Even such a sympathetic scholar has to concede:
 * So, Vision Curve's objection to my statement about much of details about Pyragy's life being sourced from lore does not stand scrutiny.
 * So, Vision Curve's objection to my statement about much of details about Pyragy's life being sourced from lore does not stand scrutiny.

One article from 1872 (Bakulin) has been deemed as fit enough to comment on present attitude of Turkmen people towards the subject.
 * Nothing about variant attitudes in Soviet era, Niyazov's regime etc.

Most importantly, we have almost nothing about manuscripts — most of them have vast discrepancies for what is the same poem, and multiple folk-singers had interpolated their own content into the supposed works of Magtymguly. The Soviet destruction is patent fiction - more on that, later. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:09, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't quite understand what makes you believe that opinion of a Polish poet (Aleksander Chodzko) in the service of the Russian embassy in Persia in the 19th century is better than those provided in the article. Moreover, you most probably know that according to WP:RSAGE, older sources may be inaccurate because new information has been brought to light, new theories proposed, or vocabulary changed. Research article published by the Northern Federal University named after M.Lomonosov (Russia) in the science journal "Meridian" (issue #16 (40), 2020), titled "Creativity of the Turkmen poet Makhtumkuli in the interpretation of the Polish poet A.Khodzko", states: "The author (A.Chodzko) collected materials for the book from oral legends". I think that contradicts your own perception of a reliable source, which should make you go back to the drawing board and come up with something better than that. However, I still believe that the best of both worlds is to try to find a compromise by either polishing the article or remove specific statements deemed too improbable rather than you falling short of your ambitious goal to strip this page from its GA status. -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire  13:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You need to get better at comprehending others - I was making a larger point about how your objection to my statement about much of details about Pyragy's life being sourced from lore does not stand scrutiny. Why did I mention Azemoun's rejection of Chodzko, otherwise? I do not have any issues with the part. line based on Chodzko's note. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Our article propagates the same (political) manipulation. fyi.  TrangaBellam (talk) 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Unreliable Sources
I will remove the following sources absent any forthcoming explanation on their reliability: TrangaBellam (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Gudar (2016)
 * Taylor (2014)
 * I would also remove the Blackwell and Abazov ones. Visioncurve  Timendi causa est nescire  11:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Blackwell is unreliable, I agree. Not sure about Abazov - use your discretion. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Cited Source (copyrighted): Google Translate: VisionCurve's edit: Since, VC had (earlier) accused me of "bullying", I will instead let a neutral audience to comment/decide on the accuracy of my allegation. Regards, TrangaBellam (talk) 12:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Cited Source (copyrighted):
 * Google Translate:
 * VisionCurve's edit:TrangaBellam (talk) 12:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * It is immaterial whether this translation was done by a human or a machine. If the original source is copyrighted then so is a translation of it. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello. I'm not sure if it counts as plagiarism if it's translated? Since those are technically different words/sentences now. Moreover, a translation machine can come with different translations, right? --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * As far as Google goes, it gives highly consistent translations. I do not know for DeepL. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * According to WP:PLAG, plagiarism is taking credit for someone else's writing as your own, including their language and ideas, without providing adequate credit. The University of Cambridge defines plagiarism as: "submitting as one's own work, irrespective of intent to deceive, that which derives in part or in its entirety from the work of others without due acknowledgement". Did I pass it off as my own work? NO. Sources were provided properly after each sentence or paragraph in line with WP:V. Also, according to WP:NONENGPLAG, if the source is in a language other than English, regardless of whether the work is free, the obligation remains to give credit to authors of foreign language texts for their creative expression, information and ideas (which I did). Only if the work is unfree, direct translation is likely to be a copyright violation. It isn't direct translation, sorry. Visioncurve  Timendi causa est nescire  13:49, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * So, your sentences are not a direct translation yet coincides with Google Translate? TrangaBellam (talk) 14:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * However, I would also like to point out that if a competent administrator concludes that these additions violate Wikipedia policy in any way, I have no objection to removing the edits in question. Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire  14:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've had a look and it shouldn't take a "competent administrator" to explain such a simple copyright violation. While there was a link to the source, copying from it in this way (whether translated or not) is still a copyright violation. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Please go ahead and remove the copied translation. It's a violation of our copyright policy, even if you re-worded it a bit. Thanks, — Diannaa (talk) 15:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * (after edit conflict) As is far too common on Wikipedia people are confusing plagiarism and copyright. You can avoid plagiarism for copied content by citing the source, but it is still a copyright violation to copy or translate anything that is copyrighted. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Archives
Can someone who is good at that add the archives at the top in the usual manner? Search box etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Fixed. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:21, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:55, 9 January 2023 (UTC)