Talk:Maharishi International University

Mailloux

 * Curtis Mailloux (class of 1979), said the Fairfield campus is a "coercive environment" with a "propensity for fraudulent research".

The above material was deleted with the edit summary "Curtis is not a reliable source who admits to lying in the article. You can ask 1000's of satisfied graduates." However the New York Times found him to be credible enough to quote. If we can find an independent source that describes the views of 1000s of other students we can include that too. If there's no other reason for the deletion I'll restore it.  Will Beback   talk    04:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Grants to MUM from NIH and other sources
Compiling sources and trying to make sense out of all these grants to and from different organizations
 * NIH
 * 1997, Med Lib, $5 million
 * 1999, Various sources, $8 million
 * 2000, Pub Med, $8 million, NIH grant
 * 2003, The Gazette, $20.3 million total as of 2003.
 * 2005 and 2006, approx $1 million, NIH web site
 * 2007, Medical News Today, $22 million total as of 2007
 * 2009, Medical News reports on $1 million grant
 * 2009, Local news reports on $1 million grant


 * NCCM
 * NCCM web site -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:44, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * List of NIH research


 * Be careful that you don't count the same grants twice. Is getting a grant really a notable thing? UCLA receives millions in grants every year, but they aren't mentioned in that article.   Will Beback    talk    19:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the grants are worth mentioning - MUM is a very small college, with small faculty, the nature of the research and the curriculum at MUM make it noteworthy, I feel. UCLA is a much larger, longer established university, so not a good comparison. --BwB (talk) 09:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you find a comparable college article where so much attention is given to grants?   Will Beback    talk    10:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's notable. Many sources mention this. TimidGuy (talk) 10:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If we're going to devote all this space to the research then we need to include other views of that research.   Will Beback    talk    11:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Will I think you are overreacting a bit here. There are already a few sentences in the article about research and grants. I began this thread in an effort to strengthen the references for the existing text. At present I have no plans to add additional text. I'm simply accumulating sources for to correct, clarify or support existing text.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Mr Keith, are we sharing our opinions of each other? While you're working on these, please note a quote request for one of the sources you just added. "Pub Med,NIH awards MUM $8 million grant,   Will Beback    talk    20:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and my opinion of you is very good. :-) -- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 15:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Gee thanks! I'm going to remove the PubMed cite, since it appears that we're using the headline alone as a source.   Will Beback    talk    22:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

List of journals
I don't understand why we're listing the journals where MUM faculty have published reports. It doesn't seem neutral to me. I don't see similar lists in the articles of other universities. I suggest we leave it at the first line of the paragraph: "MUM faculty members have published research in numerous scientific journals including the American Heart Association's journals: Hypertension and Stroke.[32]"   Will Beback    talk    23:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There are literally thousands of media reports on these publications. This research has received an extraordinary amount of coverage. You need need to cite a guideline or policy that would disallow this sourced content. TimidGuy (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What other university articles list the journals its staff have published in? Do the thousands of media reports list these journals? What is the point of listing them? Are we all free to create lists of our choosing? This list makes an implicit point about the quality of the research conducted. To comply with NPOV we would need to add other views on the quality of this research.   Will Beback    talk    10:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Citing press releases isn't a great way of showing that we're using the best available sources.    Will Beback    talk    11:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a reliably-sourced view that puts this self-generated list in context: The vast majority of the thousands of research studies conducted at MUM is not published in peer reviewed journals, but by its own MIU (later MUM) Press. The research has been criticized for, among other things, the "expectancy effect" of both the researchers and the study subjects, and the lack of control groups, biasing the results and their interpretation. Former professors have criticized the research conducted at MUM and the uses to which that research is put, including to obtain tax exempt status, as fraudulent, that researchers have claimed to gather data they later admitted was impossible to have gathered, and that researchers admit to routinely supressing negative data and using only data which supports their conclusions.Williamson pp 100-103. Fladrif (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A reliably sourced view is just that, and shouldn't be confused with accuracy or NPOV. NPOV is maintained by including content from the sources per weight in the mainstream, and then added per weight of content in an article. (olive (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC))
 * We don't have a source for this list. It was compiled apparently from looking at the studies themselves. It doesn't appear to be a complete list, but rather a list of selected journals. It has both NPOV and NOR issues. If we're going to discuss the research conducted by MUM, then the discussion must include all significant points of view, as found in reliable secondary sources.   Will Beback    talk    20:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the "mainstream" view of (i) to what extent the vast majority of TM research out of MUM is not published in peer reviewed publications (ii) to what extent the TM research at MUM may be biased by the expectancy effect of both researchers and participants or flawed by lack of control groups; (iii) to what extent the research at MUM is fraudulent? And don't tell me how many peer reviewed studies were published or how many dollars in grants it gets - one thing that peer review is singularly unable to uncover with any degree of reliability is fraud, the former professors and administrators allege that the fraud was explicitly used to obtain publication, grants and tax exemptions. I see lots of sources reporting these issues. I see none by unaffiliated, disinterested sources defending it. Fladrif (talk) 20:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The mainstream view can be found by looking at science indexes and research reviews in academic journals. There you will see that a majority of the published studies are peer reviewed, that there are many many controlled studies, that research reviews find it valid, that the research has been conducted at many different institutions. TimidGuy (talk) 10:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd gotten the impression that the majority, or at least a very large minority, of studies have been published in compendium volumes put out by MUM. I don't think we're going to find that statistic in any publication, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Separately, most of the studies that I've read do not indicate where they were conducted. Instead, they simply list the affiliations of the authors. That topic has come up on talk:Transcendental Meditation, in case anyone has an answer. For this article, if the research was conducted at another institution is it still relevant here? As for the list in general, we still have the problems of NOR and NPOV.    Will Beback    talk    12:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've moved the commentary on the quality of the research to the research section, as a stopgap to address NPOV.   Will Beback    talk    23:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The compendium volumes primarily reprint articles published in other academic journals. Early on they did include some unpublished studies. But these compendium volumes aren't typically covered in scientific indexes. A majority of the published studies (hundreds of them) found in indexes are peer reviewed. TimidGuy (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's do some quick math. There is an assertion that over 600 studies have been conducted. There is also an assertion that 341 papers have been published in peer-reviewed of edited scientific journals. Now a study isn't the same thing as a paper. Studies can be conducted without publishing the results, and a single paper can include multiple studies. Further, we already know that at least 80 of those papers were conducted by people unassociated with MUM. But if we assumed that one study=one paper, and that all studies were conducted by MUM faculty, then 601-341=260 papers or studies that were not published in reliable sources. If so, then 341 is larger than 260, and a majority of the papers/studies were published in academic journals. However there is no easy way of determining if those assumptions are correct, so I don't see how we could test the validity of the claim.   Will Beback    talk    12:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Did we ever find any other universities with similar lists? If not, then I think it'd be best to remove it.    Will Beback    talk    10:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Do all Wiki article on universities have to be the same? --BwB (talk) 10:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look through the archives of this talk page you'll find many entries by editors saying this article should be more like other university articles. Why would a university list the publications in which its faculty have had their work printed? Those are individual achievements, not products of the school. We don't list the  the schools attend by the faculty, nor their brands of cars or their tailors. Being published is not a special accomplishment for a professor: it's a minimum requirement for the job. Every real university has faculty who have been published in journals.    Will Beback    talk    11:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * What if we changed the text to read - "MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals including......" and then list the journals what have TM research? --BwB (talk) 11:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The list is the problem. I'd be fine with something like, "MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals".   Will Beback    talk    11:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How about a compromise - MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals, including Journal A and Journal B." and list a couple of the most prestigious journals? --BwB (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That'd be fine, but the research isn't limited to the TM technique. How about "MUM faculty members have published research in numerous scientific journals including the American Heart Association's journals: Hypertension and Stroke." ?    Will Beback    talk    17:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeing no further comment, I'll go ahead and make the edit.   Will Beback    talk    08:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And I have made a edit to it. --BwB (talk) 10:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you added "particularly on the TM technique". I'm not sure if we have a source for that. We might also say, "exclusively on Maharishi-inspired technologies". I'm not aware of any research by MUM faculty on matters unrelated to the Maharishi. But I'd be hesitant to add either statement without a source.   Will Beback    talk    17:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Understand, but we mention 3 journals in the text and the ref used is about TM research. Happy to discuss wording and refs, but the body of MUM faculty research is on TM. How to convey this? --BwB (talk) 13:49, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How do we convey something for which we don't have a source? I suppose one answer is that we shouldn't make unsourced assertions.    Will Beback    talk    15:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * WIll the ref for the text only talks about TM research not "TM-related technologies".  Perhaps wording only about TM should be used. --BwB (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That "ref" is a press release. We don't really need a ref for the fact that an MUM faculty member has had a paper published by Stroke. If we followed what the press release said, we'd have to say that a single study on the effect of TM on hypertension.... I don't really see the need to say anything about the topics of the research, but if we are going to summarize the faculty research we should be at least a bit more comprehensive and not list just one topic. Can you explain why you think we need to say which topic or topics MUM faculty have published research on, and why we should list only one topic?  Will Beback    talk    22:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

reception of EEG research on Yogic Flying
It's odd to include criticism of this research when the article doesn't even talk about it. If we're to include this criticism, then we'd also want to include the researchers' explanation for how they controlled for the artifacts of movement during Yogic Flying. TimidGuy (talk) 10:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, its not odd at all. It is matter of being accurate and specific in relating what the source says rather than being vague and potentially misleading. NPOV does not require that Dilbeck gets the last word. Fladrif (talk) 11:58, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * NPOV does require that multiple points of view are represented. If you're going to criticize a study, you should also say what the study found and how it dealt with the specific issue raised. TimidGuy (talk) 10:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I could see moving the EEG sentence to the TM-Sidhi article, where it's more directly relevant. The rest of the material in it now pertains more the MUM research in general.   Will Beback    talk    10:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would OK a move of this sentence. But I think Timid makes a point that need to be considered in using the sentence in the Sidhi article also. --BwB (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The source, Williamson, includes the views of both Roark and Dillbeck, as does our summary of it. A problem in the past is that we've presented a TM study, followed by the response or critique of the study, and then a sometimes lengthy rebuttal to the critique. That gives the TM POV something like twice as much space or weight as the other side. Is that fair and NPOV? I don't think so.   Will Beback    talk    11:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Undue weight
The section on reception of the research is problematic, in that it gives undue weight to the opinions of two individuals who were at the university in the 1970s. And I wonder if there's anything we can do about the factual errors. It's a matter of public record that Roark wasn't dean of faculty and chair of the physics department 1975-1980 (according to the university bulletins and yearbooks publicly available in the library). And Denaro wasn't a professor of economics and business law. He was on campus for about 9 months, never received a faculty appointment, worked in the grants office, and taught one course as a lecturer. He doesn't show up either in the yearbook or the university bulletin. TimidGuy (talk) 11:15, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

And if you use my favorite metric, Google News archive, you'll see that there is almost zero suggestion of fraud in the mainstream media, as opposed to thousands of articles reporting on the published research. TimidGuy (talk) 11:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It hardly gives those views undue weight, and these are hardly isolated instances: Just off the top of my head: The claims of Rabinoff about studies of the Maharishi effect in Fairfield, which Randi exposed as having been invented out of whole cloth; Hagelin's Maharishi Effect study in DC, characterized as "a clinic in data manipulation"; the reporting in the NY Times article mentioned in this page. Many other articles questioning the legitimacy of the research. Since virtually all of the Google News hits you're getting are the TM Org touting its own research, of course they don't mention fraud and data manipulation. It is a grossly misleading metric.  Back to my question above, in all of those hits, how many are independent, disinterested reliable secondary sources addressing the legitimacy or lack thereof of the TM research? Basically none. And, as I said before, passing peer review does not check for fraud. Peer review is ineffective at detecting fraud. Fladrif (talk) 11:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * While MUM may be mentioned in passing in many news stories, only a very few go into any depth. We should give more weight to one long profile in the New York Times than to 100 copies of a short wire story that barely mentions MUM. The raw count from a Google News query counts them all equally.
 * I've moved the whole "research" section down which reduces the weight issue.
 * As for using yearbooks, etc, as a source for dates of occupying a certain position, I suppose it'd depend on what they say. If they say something like, "Thanks for Mr. Smith for serving as interim provost from November to January" then it's a possibility, but since I don't have MUM yearbooks on hand, I can only speculate. At most, we could put those besides the other sources, but I suspect they'd be considered primary sources.
 * I'll note in passing that there are significantly long sections covering much of the same research in four Wikipedia articles: Maharishi University of Management, Transcendental Meditation, TM-Sidhi program, and Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health. As I've said before, it'd make good sense to cover the research in a single article because some of the same issues come up each place and there is inevitable redundancy. I'm just sayin'.    Will Beback    talk    12:25, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Peer Review in reliable sources is a threshold for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. Editors are not in position to second guess the sources that rely on peer review processes to determine quality of research. We should rely on Wikipedia and its guide as per peer review rather than building cases of our own for or against content and sources seems to me.


 * Whether one longer article trumps multiple shorter ones is matter of opinion, and of editor agreement. As well, there are multiple instances in the TM articles of tiny bits of information used that do not reflect the tone of the source. Perhaps all of those sources should be checked.... but again this may be a matter for editor discussion and agreement.


 * I would think that university information about its own functioning should be considered definitive. Multiple articles on universities on Wikipedia rely on information the university itself would have access to.(olive (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC))


 * I don't know where we got the idea that all sources in Wikipedia must be peer-reviewed. NPOV does not say that the official version of events is the only one we should include. Just the opposite.    Will Beback    talk    19:32, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Will, the yearbook and university bulletin list all of the faculty and their positions. I checked the yearbooks and bulletins for those years. There is no mention of Denaro anywhere, likely because he was on staff (not faculty) for a short period of time. And as I recall, Roark was chair of the two-person physics department for two years, and dean of faculty for one year. TimidGuy (talk) 10:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Fladrif, fraud is a very serious allegation. It's much different than saying a study is a clinic in data manipulation. One is actionable, the other one is a common sort of disagreement about methodology. One is actionable. The other is part of the scientific process. It's odd to question why the legitimacy of research has never been defended. It's like asking why there's never been a source that says that TimidGuy didn't commit a murder. There's never been a serious accusation of fraud. Denaro gives no evidence, and Roark's evidence consists of 1) a lack of understanding how EEG researchers control for movement artifacts in the data, and 1) some comments someone made to him in the campus dining hall about research on the Maharishi Effect -- in other words, hearsay. As an aside, note that many of the Maharishi Effect studies used data from public sources. Anyone can check the data in those studies against the data that;'s publicly available if they think researchers are suppressing negative data. (Some studies used content analysis to generate data for some measures, and I'm guessing that's where Roarks dining companions were in disagreement, because content analysis is ultimately a subjective determination no matter how hard one tries to establish objective criteria.) TimidGuy (talk) 10:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * TG, thanks for doing that research into the primary sources. Obviously, you have access that some of don't. Once we find that information in secondary sources we can add it to the article. But we can't add it based on our own original research any more than we could say that only 80 studies have been conducted by unaffiliated researchers (see Talk:TM). The Williamson book is published by an academic press, which usually considered highly reliable sources.   Will Beback    talk    11:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of adding it, it's a question of whether Wikipedia should include demonstrably false information. TimidGuy (talk) 11:20, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Until this material is actually demonstrated to be false, we're just talking about material that is alleged to be false. On the one hand we have a book by a known scholar published by a leading university press. What do we have on the other hand? An unverifiable claim that private documents show a different story? Has anyone from MUM tried to correct Williamson? Issued a rebuttal, perhaps?     Will Beback    talk    11:33, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * TimidGuy - that is quite enough with legal threats. WP:NLT I have seen no credible evidence that MIU nor anyone named in the DeNaro affidavit ever once sued DeNaro or that anyone sued Roark. As I have pointed out before, at no time did Rabinoff deign to object to Randi exposing his claims has having been simply invented. I have seen no credible evidince that MUM has sued Williamson or her publisher. Do not EVER threaten anther editor. Refactor your ocmments above. Fladrif (talk) 12:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fladrif, I wasn't referring to you, and I believe that was clear from the context of my comments. I was referring to the accusations of fraud by Denaro and Roark. And I was making the point that it's a serious claim, and a legal issue, and was contrasting that with the debate in normal science. You were conflating these things. TimidGuy (talk) 11:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What's the relevance of it being a legal issue? Has there been any legal action? I don't understand the dispute here. We have a clear statement in a reliable source.   Will Beback    talk    11:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Timid Guy not once, but twice for emphasis, asserted in his post that calling TM research fraudulent was "actionable". It is an implicit threat against editors, notwithstanding his denial. DeNaro, Roark, Williamson all made those statements being reflected in the article - DeNaro in a sword affidavit received as evidence in court - without anyone suing them for libel. This is not the first time that TimidGuy has made similar implict threats. Fladrif (talk) 00:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I meant that fraud was actionable. It's a criminal offense. Calling something a clinic in data manipulation is part of the dialog of science. He's not claiming fraud, he's objecting to the use of time series analysis -- for unstated reasons. It bothers me that things like this are lumped together, the way Fladrif did. I often get the impression that participants here don't understand the nature of this scientific dialog and view, for example, the AHRQ review as some sort of expose. Will, I was responding to a specific point that Fladif made. TimidGuy (talk) 10:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest that we avoid getting into a discussion of the repercussions of the allegations. Whether the charges are legally actionable or not is irrelevant to our job as Wikipedia editors.   Will Beback    talk    10:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That wasn't my point. TimidGuy (talk) 11:15, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we can go back to addressing the points that Timid raised in the start of this thread. Are we giving undue weight to the comments by Roark and Denaro? --BwB (talk) 11:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you think is "due weight" and why?   Will Beback    talk    11:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Williamson as a source
Will has said that we should use the highest quality sources possible. This book by Williamson is published by a reputable academic press, but it has a surprising number of factual errors -- suggesting that it doesn't meet the criteria established by WP:RS. For example, it says that there are thousands of studies on TM. She says Wallace's study on reversal of aging wasn't published in a peer-reviewed journal, but in fact it was. She says that almost all of the thousands of studies were published by MIU of MUM press, which is factually incorrect. Her discussion of quantum physics has many factual errors. TimidGuy (talk) 11:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, errors of magnitude are all too-frequent in our innumerate society. (Count me in!) Nearby, another editor has written something to the effect that "a source is a source". Should we second-guess sources with our own views? Or should we blindly repeat what they say no matter how ridiculously wrong their assertions may be? I guess it depends on whether we agree or disagree with them. ;) If I understand correctly, it's proposed that we use a Google count of (mostly American) newspapers to establish proper weight for topics in this article, but we should should discount a very respectable scholarly publication due to alleged errors. Is that the plan here?   Will Beback    talk    11:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The claim that Williamson is inaccurate is not supported by reliable secondary sources but solely by an editor's original research and opinion. It is a reliable, verifiable source. Fladrif (talk) 12:44, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Wallace aging study, Williamson refers to a study that was presented in 1974. The paper that TG linked to was published in 1982. While it's possible that the latter paper covered an eight-year-old study, it seems more likely that it was a different study. If we're going to second-guess sources let's make sure we have our own facts straight.   Will Beback    talk    20:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the number of studies, Pubmed reports around 270. Canter & Ernst did a thorough search and reported around 700. Mainstream media report the figure of 600 as fact. The official TM website says 600. And we have one source that says "thousands." Search any science index, and it will turn up hundreds, not thousands. This is a factual error. One of many. TimidGuy (talk) 11:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine withnot using this source for the number of studies. The book covers a lot of ground, and it isn't a literature review - the studies are not her focus.   Will Beback    talk    11:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But if a source is considered reliable, one ought to be able to use any info from it. This is an error. And it's one of many. The large number of errors suggests that there was no fact checking at all. TimidGuy (talk) 10:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That may be true, but so far we've only discussed one simple mistake that isn't closely related to the book's main topic.   Will Beback    talk    11:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced it's a mistake or an error. PubMed is not going to cover all papers, only those on medicine. Much of the TM-related reseearch coming out of MUM is not on medicine, even broadly defined. Same thing with Cantor & Ernst, which was about medical claims, as were as the AHRQ and UK meta-analyses.  They're not going to be Whatever number the TM Org touts in its press releases is pretty much irrelevant. I can't put my finger on the source, but I seem to have the same recollection as Will that there is an exceedingly large number of studies that are either unpublished or simply compiled in MIU/MUM publications which aren't going to make it to science indexes. Fladrif (talk) 19:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems like if it's a reliable source than we should be able to cite it. I am not aware of anything in RS that says we as editors should decide that because the info in a source is off the main topic of the book that it shouldn't be included. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine, cite it if you want, though I don't think the figure is meant to apply just to MUM faculty.   Will Beback    talk    20:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless Fladrif can show evidence for the existence of thousands of scientific studies on the benefits of TM, as she claims, then I think we're agreed that it's a mistake. And can we agree that her corresponding claim that almost all of those thousands of studies have been published by MIU/MUM Press is also a mistake? TimidGuy (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think we can just assume that she's wrong about the ratio. It does appear that the majority or near-majority of papers on TM-related issues have been published by TM-related institutions. Maybe someone can wade through the volumes compiled by OJ and Chalmers, and come up with a list. Until then, the assertion hasn't been shown and it's just an empty assertion, like claiming that Roark and DeNaro lied about their employment at MUM.   Will Beback    talk    11:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It would seem that she is mistaken. Since TM.org does like to use the number of studies to promote all its activities, and if there were indeed 1,000s of studies supporting the great effects of TM, one would think that TM.org would be pumping ads with the 1000's number rather than 600? Just a thought. --BwB (talk) 11:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I expect it's just an editing error, as happens with even the most carefully reviewed reference work. However since you mention the promotion of studies, I'll point out that members of the movement have variously asserted that there are 500 studies that show TM works in prisons, 500 that show the value of MVAH, 500 that find it arouses the creativity of the economy, 500 that indicate it cuts crime and increases intelligence, etc. If we added up all of those claims it might equal many thousands.
 * This is one of the few independent scholarly books to address MUM and the TM movement published in the recent past. If we find an error or two on the MUM website would that disqualify it as a source for this article?    Will Beback    talk    12:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Precisely. Moreover, TG has the "burden of proof" here exactly backwards. He wants to exclude a source on the basis that it is wrong. The burden of proof is on him to show that there are not thousands of studies, not on me to show that the source is right. Now, I'm not seriously expecting him to do that - proving a negative is pretty much impossible. My point was that looking at the sources he cited doesn't prove that Williamson is wrong about that, and in any event, the job of editors is not to prove a source is right or wrong.  More to the point, the notion that a source can be excluded because it is claimed to be "wrong" isn't how Wikipedia works. If there are contradictory reliable sources on a point, we present them with appropriate weight. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Fladrif (talk) 12:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll quote Will here from the TM article discussion: "Not all sources are the same. For example, we might find a source that says MUM is in Fairfield, Connecticut. Do we add that "verifiable" information to an article? The assertions of some sources can be verified, which enhances their value."

Its hard to believe that anyone is supporting Williamson's inaccurate comments after the numerous discussions we've had in which the research was determined to be  in the hundreds... My contention has always been that a source is a source, but that not all sources are accurate and if they're not and we know that, the onus is on us as editors to not use inaccurate information. That of course, takes some hefty agreement and collaborative editing...

For the purpose of these articles, it might be advantageous to determine as a group how many studies there are, which are peer reviewed and which aren't, and what the definitive source for this information... is for our purposes. It seems relatively absurd to be using a source that says there are thousands of sources.(olive (talk) 19:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC))
 * Yes, I think this would be a very useful exercise, Olive. --BwB (talk) 19:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Is anyone here proposing that we use Williamson to report that there have been thousands of studies? I haven't heard anyone say that, so this line of argument appears to be a red herring.
 * I agree that a careful examination of the full extent and nature of TM-related research would be a boon for all of the TM-related articles. Ospina has already done much of the work, but I don't know if even that voluminous review is complete.   Will Beback    talk    21:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * FYI, some of this analysis is at Talk:Transcendental Meditation/341 studies   Will Beback    talk    10:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

MUM cultural climate
In the article iw was reported several times that the cultural climate was secretive, manupulative, and as seen below even repressive: "In 1992, reporter Michael D’Antonio wrote in his book, Heaven on Earth – Dispatches from America’s Spiritual Frontier,[115] that, as practiced at MUM, Transcendental Meditation is "a cult rather than a culture". D'Antonio wrote that Transcendental Meditation was like the worst of religion: rigid, unreasonable, repressive, and authoritarian, characterized by overt manipulation, a disregard for serious scholarship, and an unwillingness to question authority."

I took the time to visit MUM. I found hundreds of slim healthy seniors engaging in an active lifestyle along side similarly open, active, healthy youth of all ages. The atmosphere was safe, warm, and opening. People were helpful, artistic and tolerant. In no way was TM represented as a religion. Student life, contrary to the majority of colleges in the US was designed so as to allow total subject immersion, adequate study and rest time, plus organic, nutritional meals.

Instructors were open, engaging and interested in a variety of views presented by students. Conversations were challenging, stimulating, thought-provoking yet peaceful. Responsibility and Repect was the feeling I came away with, contrary to this author's strong viewpoint of repression and secrecy. Personal Experience

Neutrality Tag
Tags are to alert editors of specific areas or aspects of an article that need attention or improvement. The tag was added by Doc James in Jan 2010. I will post a note on his User Page asking him to ID his concerns here so they can be addressed and the tag removed.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC) The essay WP:Tagging pages for problems suggests:
 * "It's useful to leave a short note on the talk page describing the issue, and suggesting an approach to fixing it"
 * "Especially in the case of a tag such as NPOV complaints left at a talkpage need to be actionable, so that editors can attempt to address them. It is not helpful to say simply "The article is biased." Instead, some details should be given to help other editors understand what needs to be fixed or discussed"-- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The NPOV issues were discussed when the tag was placed. Talk:Maharishi University of Management/Archive 2.   Will Beback    talk    21:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Has anything changed since the tags were added.(olive (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC))
 * Thanks Will, looking at the past discussion there wasn't anything specifically identified as needing change. Doc James has said on his talk page that he will look at the article in the next few days and I've asked him to be more specific so we can resolve the issue(s) and remove the tag. Let's see what he says and then proceed.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * He has removed the tag and says "the primary issue regarding why this was placed has been resolved". Problem solved, the system works.   Will Beback    talk    10:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

ONE Campus Challenge
Is this a notable achievement or honor? It seems like most colleges send students to conferences like this. MUM is just on out of 100 schools to send a representative - is this mention in any other school article? Are there any secondary sources? If not, I suggest we delete it.  Will Beback   talk    00:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In 2009, MUM was selected for the Top 100 Campus Challenge, a 3-day student conference held in Washington, DC.
 * Announcing the Power of 100


 * There are 4800 or so colleges and universities in the US, being selected as one of the top one hundred to attend this conference is probably significant enough to include in this article. Yes universities send students to conferences. This one was by invitation only. What is significant is the invitation, not the sending.(olive (talk) 01:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * Whether a secondary source is needed to underpin what a university says about itself is another discussion.(olive (talk) 01:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * If it's significant enough to be mentioned in a secondary source, then it may well be significant enough to mention here. If not a single news source has bothered to report on this honor then maybe it's not such an honor. This isn't about what the university says about itself - it's whether a perhaps non-notable advocacy group's inclusion of this along with 99 other schools is significant.
 * As for specifics, a university has to apply to join this group, I'm sure that 4800 schools haven't done so. Perhaps it was 100 out of 120 schools. But we don't know anything about this group other than what they say about themselves. If we can't find more to establish its significance I'll remove it.   Will Beback    talk    01:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've asked for an outsider editor to take a look at this article. Its more pejorative than other university articles I've looked at.


 * What is significant to a university is often not reported in the press. At the same time I don't know how many schools were part of this as you say. I'm not surer this is a situation where secondary sources are necessary. Not clear on the issue. I think it would be fine to remove the content for now pending more thought and discussion on the matter.(olive (talk) 01:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * In looking at this closer, what might be significant is that the MUM students have aligned themselves with One, which is an org to fight poverty...and in doing so also became one of the 100 schools invited to the national challenge... this seems significant, and possibly the definitive source for this is the university and the One web site. There are times when primary sources are acceptable and definitive. I'm less inclined to delete this but we might consider rewording it to be a significant aspect of campus life for some students.(olive (talk) 04:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * I think the core issue, from an editing point of view, is that this only has a primary source. Wikipedia articles should be based on secondary and tertiary sources.   Will Beback    talk    07:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've looked into it further. Apparently One is a lobbying organization descended from a group founded by rock star philanthropist Bono which gets college students to collect petitions and contact legislators to further the issues that it promotes. For example a school gets 500 points for every digital signature on one of their petitions. So far this year, MUM has gained 5500 points on account of gathering 11 signatures. The leading university has over 245,000 points. The school at the 100th place this year has 6400 points, so MUM can get back into the top 100 simply by getting two more signatures for a total of thirteen. That hardly represents a significant effort. My guess is that one or a few students were enthusiastic about it last school year and pushed hard enough to get the points to earn a free trip to Washington for the campus organizer, but that they aren't so interested this year. If you have a source which says that this was a significant aspect of campus life for some students then that might change, but as it stands this is pretty meaningless. Meanwhile, we have a couple of reliable secondary sources that talk extensively about the campus, which we hardly mention. If we want to follow the due weight clause of NPOV, those sources would need to receive several paragraphs, at least, if this puny achievement deserves a sentence. If we want to talk about significant aspects of campus life then we should greatly expand the discussion of required daily attendance at the Golden Domes.    Will Beback    talk   

Like I said, as a significant award this would not seem to apply, but as a student activity might be as important as any of the other clubs such as knitting and fencing clubs, and could be placed in the Activities section with rewording. We don't need secondary sources for campus activities. If you want to delete it go ahead. I've made my point. Go ahead with whatever you want.(olive (talk) 17:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * We have a secondary source, albeit low-quality, for the knitting club. The knitting, fencing, and One clubs are not mentioned on MUM's own Student Clubs page. We only have the One site as a source for this. If I set up a website and gave an award to MUM would that be sufficient for inclusion?   Will Beback    talk    22:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The university is the definitive source for what happens on its campus. If these clubs are not mentioned they should be deleted. I'm not sure what your comment means. Are you comparing yourself to the One organization? If the One org/affair is  not mentioned on the university site (the primary definitive source) I would just delete it. Not a big deal. (olive (talk) 23:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * The University website has already been found to be an unreliable source, open to change to meet the needs of Wikipedia editors. It wouldn't surprise me if the One club suddenly appears on the list of clubs as a result of this discussion.   Will Beback    talk    23:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a nasty assumption of bad faith, and a misrepresentation of a past event which I, by the way had nothing to do with. Maybe given the last AE, you should keep that kind of thing to yourself. Perhaps we could move on with the discussion if needed. Since I've agreed to delete, and you wanted to delete, I'm not sure what else there is to discuss (olive (talk) 23:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * I never said that you were involved. I was simply referring to the unreliability of the source, which some on this page were referring to as "definitive". Anyway, since there is no mention of this on the MUM website, or in any secondary source, I'm going to remove it. If better sources can be found then we can add it back.   Will Beback    talk    23:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No need to mince words. I said definitive and I stand by that. Universities have information that has been traditionally seen as necessary in Wikipedia articles, such as the food served for example, but such information is not necessarily news worthy, and would never appear in  a secondary source. The information the university added to its own site was accurate was it not, and in fact the whole situation had nothing to do with what went on here as I remember. No need to cast a bad light on the university. Its absurd really. Anything untrue or dishonest and the university could lose its accreditation. And it is accredited and has been since it first applied. (olive (talk) 23:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * Is there any evidence that the accreditation committee reviews all the comments placed in the University's website since the previous accreditation? I'd be really surprised if that's true. But since you say so, I'm sure you have a good source for it. In any case, I'm not talking about the university as a whole, only its website. Wikipedia editors are allowed to challenge sources. I have no conflict of interest here.   Will Beback    talk    23:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have a source for anything... just common sense and an awareness of how universities run. Are you suggesting a COI even after the arbitration did not find one? Before this deteriorates into haggling . You can have the last word and I'll go on to something else. Best wishes(olive (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC))

(undent) Come on Olive and Will. Enough already. Let's delete the text and move on. --BwB (talk) 14:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Already done.   Will Beback    talk    21:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"Operated by..."
Regarding the text just added, could you please quote from the source? In what sense it the University "operated by the TM movement.? It is its own legal entity. It has its own governing board. I think this is a red flag, especially since the legal status and governance is well documented. TimidGuy (talk) 10:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This seems to be a repeated pattern; Will Beback inserting a TMM wikilink (an article he created) in the lead of every TM related article, even when it sticks out like a sore thumb.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The sentence "It is operated by the Transcendental Meditation movement" is not appropriate for the lead as it does not summarize any part of the article. A clear violation of WP:LEAD which says in a nutshell "The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight" Having it in the lead violates undue weight and creates POV. Therefore it should be moved out of the lead. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The connections between the university and the movement are clear, but we can add more text to the article on that topic if editors think it's not sufficiently discussed. The organization which operates or is affiliated with the university is a defining characteristic and belongs in the lead. I'm not sure what POV is created.
 * There are a number of sources which make essentially the same assertion, that the university is operated by the movement. Here's what the cited source says:
 * In the United States, the organization values it assets at about $300 million, with its base in Fairfield, Iowa, where it operates a university, called the Maharishi University of Management.
 * Here's more:
 * Some of the schools currently owned by the [MVEDC] are Maharishi International University, Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment, Maharishi Vedic University, Maharishi Medical Center, and Maharishi University of Management.
 * The effects of the TM movement have been far reaching... The Maharishi himself purchased the defunct Parsons College in Fairfield, Iowa, and turned it into Maharishi International Universit, which in 1974 was renamed the Maharishi University of Management (of the Universe). 
 * Maharishi Mahesh Yogi...bought the bankrupt campus of Parsons College, a former Methodist school. The 140-acre campus would eventually become the Maharishi University of Management (MUM), a fully accredited institution of higher education and a center for the transcendental meditation movement in the United States.
 * The organization he founded in order to spread the ancient Hindu principles of perfect health and world peace made its home in Fairfield, with the Maharishi University of Management its centerpiece.
 * ...I should accompany him on his next visit to Maharishi International University (MIU was renamed Maharishi University of Management in 1995), the "capital" of the TM movement, located in Fairfield, Iowa...
 * ...members of the Transcendental Meditation movement arrived in 1974, bought a local college that had gone broke, and set up the Maharishi University of Management.
 * Note also that even the name of the university is a trademark belonging to the Maharishi Foundation and licensed to MVEDC.    Will Beback    talk    22:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * What is necessary is accuracy in this situation. How are we defining "operated by". The definitive source on who and what operates this university is probably the university. What kind of information do we have on that. If this was an opinion then we could cite sources that are giving opinions. There must be factual information on this topic. Where can we get it?(olive (talk) 23:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC))
 * We summarize reliable sources. In this case, Brier apparently plagiarized the New York Times.
 * In the United States, the organization values its assets at about $300 million, with its base in Fairfield, Iowa, where it operates a university, the Maharishi University of Management.
 * Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a Guide On the Beatles' Spiritual Path, Dies; Lily Koppel. New York Times Feb 6, 2008. p. C.10
 * We could add a section on the connections between the university and elements of the movement. I suppose the first item would be the role of movement leaders like Bevan Morris and John Hagelin. The MUM website says that Morris is the president of the university and chairman of the board. He's also the head of the MVEDC and the prime minister of the GCWP, the two leading movement entities. There's also the unusual trademark situation. Etc. It'd also be appropriate to add an "affiliation" line to the infobox to mention the university's affiliation to the movement.   Will Beback    talk    00:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if the statement is determined to be accurate, it is a minor detail and having it in the lead creates undue weight and POV. What is most disturbing is a single editor's commitment to defending its placement in the lead even though it clearly violates WP:LEAD as it does not define the topic or summarize the article.  Their suggestion that creating new content and add a "section" to the body of the article for the sole purpose of maintaining the sentence and the TMM wikilink in the lead is, to me, bizarre.  Doing a bit of research, I see that Will Beback is responsbile for the insertion of the wikilink Transcendental Meditation movement (TMM--an article he created and in which he dominates the edit history) into the lead section of at least 15 TM articles:  including it being added as an Easter egg here and then in another article added here even though there is a "main article re-direct" link to the same TMM article, prominently displayed, just above it. I suggest we move the sentence out of the lead and into the body of the article and continue the discussion as to whether it is an accurate statement or not. Is this agreeable to everyone?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 02:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Our primary task is not to summarize sources, it is to create accurately informative articles. Questions have been raised as to the accuracy of the information in the content added by Will Beback. There must be accurate information available on how the university is run. We should use it. That kind of information would override general nonspecific statements like a university is "operated by" whose meaning is unclear as is context. I don't care who or what runs the university, but I do care if its accurate. I do agree with Kbob that creating something that sounds to me  to be very OR ish in attempts to make a connection between the words TM movement and the university is bizarre as if somehow the relationship between the university and the technique is hidden and we are on a mission to make it clear. Good grief. Look at the web site which is linked from the article. I don't agree that the content should be moved to the body of the article. Until we have verified the information . I would remove it altogether,  but I guess I could go along with group agreement on that point. (olive (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC))

More sources that indicate the university is operated by or affiliates or associated with the TM movement:
 * ''About 50 "international administrators" are poised to take the reins of the TM movement, supporters said yesterday. One key figure may be Dr John Hagelin, a Harvard-educated physicist, three-times fringe US presidential candidate, a Maharishi college teacher and "minister of science and technology".
 * Beatles' guru leaves much to meditate upon; [FINAL Edition] Tim Cornwell Arts Correspondent. The Scotsman. Edinburgh (UK): Feb 7, 2008. pg. 3
 * "Apart from Maharishi's nephews, several important members of the organisation from the US are present. Filmmaker David Lynch is one of them, along with American physicist John Hagelin and De Bevan Morris, chairman of the Maharishi University of Management," Bob Roth, global in-charge of the media and publicity of the organisation, told IANS.
 * Mahesh Yogi cremated as large gathering pays tribute The Hindustan Times. New Delhi: Feb 11, 2008.
 * The movement's Iowa roots go back to 1973, when TM founder Maharishi Mahesh Yogi started a university in Fairfield. [..] To an outsider, TM seemed intangible and a bit cultish at first. After observing the group meditation session at MUM, I met on campus with Roth and Norman Zierold, another spokesman for the TM movement.
 * Enjoy a therapeutic journey to Iowa; [Final Edition] Gary Lee. The Vancouver Sun. Vancouver, B.C.: Dec 12, 2006. pg. E.7.Fro
 * "I call him 'the reluctant yogi," said Robert Roth, a spokesman for the Transcendental Meditation organization and the vice president of the [Lynch] foundation. [..] Maharishi, now believed to be 90, still directs the movement, which claims more than 6 million adherents, from a log house on a 65-acre compound in the Dutch village of Vlodrop. The organization operates the Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa; its own incorporated town, Vedic City (population 325), is nearby.
 * David Lynch's Shockingly Peaceful Inner Life Alex Williams. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Dec 31, 2006. pg. 9.1
 * ''Fairfield, Iowa, is the hub of U.S. TM operations and home to Maharishi University of Management and the Maharishi Vedic City, which has it's own currency, the Raam Mudra. [Einar] Olsen, who lives in Fairfield, says John Hagelin, a physicist turned spokesman and three-time Natural Law presidential candidate, is gradually taking over the reins of the movement from it's elderly founder.
 * Return of the Sidhi Carl E. Feather. McClatchy - Tribune Business News. Washington: Jun 20, 2007. pg. 1
 * Altogether, the Maharishi wants to build 2,400 peace palaces in 250 U.S. cities and has opened ones in Houston, Bethesda, Lexington, Ky., and Fairfield, Iowa, where his group also has operated the Maharishi University of Management for three decades.
 * In Kansas, Peace And Disharmony; Maharishi's Project Alarms Farm Town; [FINAL Edition] Carl Manning. The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Jun 11, 2006. pg. D.01
 * The research team included doctors from the Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa. The school was founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who started a movement to teach meditation worldwide and was a guru to the Beatles and the Beach Boys. "I would like to see this replicated by other investigators, especially by those not part of the TM organization," [ Jim Lane of Duke University School of Medicine] said. He is conducting similar research on meditation without the endorsement of the TM group.
 * Meditation good for heart; [Final Edition]Beaumont Enterprise. Beaumont, Tex.: Jun 13, 2006. pg. A.6
 * ''The movement has its own seat of learning, the Pounds 25million Maharishi University of Management, in Iowa, where, despite a recent dormitory drugs bust and a high-profile murder in which a schizophrenic stabbed a fellow student, exam results are remarkably good.
 * MY AUDIENCE WITH THE YOGI ; Whatever became of the Maharishi who bewitched The Beatles with his mystical teachings on meditation? DAVID JONES tracked him down to his bizarre private kingdom (complete with its own currency) where he conducted one of the most extraordinary interviews of his career DAVID JONES. Daily Mail. London (UK): Mar 18, 2006. pg. 34
 * ''Lynch described himself as an advanced practitioner of TM who has experienced what the organization calls "Yogic Flying," in which, according to a Web site from the organization's Maharishi University of Management in Iowa, practitioners' bodies "spontaneously lift up" into the air "in a series of blissful hops."
 * Movie director takes cues from Transcendental Meditation Bob Keefer The Register-Guard. The Register - Guard. Eugene, Or.: Nov 6, 2005. pg. G.1
 * The campus would be created in the mold of the group's Maharishi University of Management and its School of the Age of Enlightenment, both in Fairfield, Iowa.
 * Maharishi group plans busy campus for quiet spa Jonathan Graham. Sentinel & Enterprise. Fitchburg, Mass.: Feb 19, 2006. pg. 1
 * ''While there have been plenty of positive studies carried out on the health benefits of TM, many were carried out by the Maharishi University of Management (MUM), which is associated with the TM movement.
 * Meditate, don't mediate; [Magazine Edition] Barry Davis. Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem: Aug 16, 2002. pg. 11
 * ''Another winner was physicist John Hagelin of Maharishi University, which is in Fairfield, Iowa, and is the academic outpost of the Transcendental Meditation movement.
 * IG NOBEL PRIZES' IMMORTALIZE WEIRD SCIENCE Keay Davidson. The Salt Lake Tribune. Salt Lake City, Utah: Nov 10, 1994. pg. C.2

I don't think that accurately summarizing a reliable source on the topic of this article is OR-ish. As a compromise, I could see putting in an "affiliation" line in the infobox instead of including it in the lead. But it's not a minor detail. IIRC, some of the editors posting here had argued previously that there was no such thing as the TM movement, despite the fact that many movement publications and leaders refer to it as a movement. Do we have any sources which deny a connection between the university and the movement, a connection asserted in numerous sources?  Will Beback   talk    06:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * "Operated by", "affiliated with," and "associated with" are very different things. "Operated by" isn't factually correct, The legal governance structure and status as a corporate entity are documented. Any statement otherwise is a red flag and would need corroboration, naming the individuals operating the university other than the board and officers, and giving detailed information about their authority and agency. On the other hand, "affiliated with the TM movement" is certainly preferred. But it's still a matter of observation and opinion, given that "TM movement" is an artificial construct and has never been clearly defined, does not have any legal status, and doesn't have any stated governance structure. "Associated with the teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi" is correct in every case, is in line with all of the sources, and a clear statement of fact. Similarly, it is incontestably factual that MUM is an organization founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. TimidGuy (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that you reject the idea that Morris and and Hagelin, respectively the emeritus and honorary chairmen of the MUM board, are leaders of the TM movement?   Will Beback    talk    10:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the list of people on the MUM board of trustees? There are several presidents and CEO's of big companies like Tower Companies and Hartford Financial. Shall we say that MUM is "operated" by corporate America or business interests? MUM is named after the Maharishi, its founder and the students do TM.  But that association is already obvious in the lead. The sources above indicate some association, but none of them say that MUM is "operated by the TM Movement".  And coming to that conclusion based on a personal evaluation of trademark licensing and the names of two board members is Original Research.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 13:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm "coming to that conclusion" based on a variety of reliable sources. Editors here asked how the movement operates or affiliates with the university and I suggested that the role of Hagelin and Morris is an obvious place to look. It isn't OR to point out that they are leaders of the TM movement. If MUM is not connected to the TM movement maybe we should remove mention of it in the TM movement article and the TM movement template. But I can't imagine anyone here making that argument. As a compromise, I'll move it from the text to the infobox, next to "affiliation".   Will Beback    talk    20:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That's better. TimidGuy (talk) 10:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

thank you --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 14:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Meditation domes
Is this the right citation? I see where it refers to "the Maharishi's domes" and "two golden-topped amphitheatres". But I don't see any reference to "meditation domes".  Will Beback   talk    04:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Two "meditation domes"...
 * Munns, Roger, "Upstart stirring up the karma", Owosso Argus-Press (Associated Press) (July 21, 1983)
 * Thanks for spotting this inconsistency. I have replaced the source with a more appropriate one and edited the sentence accordingly here --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 12:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Golden Domes
We now have an article specifically about the campus' Golden Domes. With that as a standalone article we no longer need to include some of the material on the domes and dome access in this article. I suggest replacing that material with a short section on the Golden Domes, using material that's directly relevant to the university.  Will Beback   talk    00:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed removal of chart
Current Text: In 2007 the university had 52 faculty members in 2007 Citytown Info and average salaries for full-time faculty as compared to the national average are compared in the chart below."Faculty Salaries, Benefits and Total Compensation", National Center for Educational Statistics

The above text violates the following policies and guidelines: My proposal is to remove the chart format and retain only the faculty salary info (and citation) in text format. The statistics on national salaries is off the topic of this article and should be removed in my opinion. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 14:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) WP:OR There is no source that compares MUM salaries with the national average. Instead the chart compares two sources, one on-topic and one off-topic. For what purpose?
 * 2) WP:Notability The comparison is not notable and has not received any press or media coverage etc.
 * 3) WP:UNDUE The chart format creates undue emphasis and weight for a minor, non-notable piece of information.
 * 4) WP:NPOV The source gives dozens of university statistics on demographics, enrollment, admissions, degree programs and more, but a chart is created only this particular set of statistics plus a comparison to national salary data. This gives it undue weight and emphasis and creates POV.


 * I agree with your points above. As well, what is the use of salary data from 2007 unless used for historical purposes? That data is five years old. Is there anything more recent.(olive (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC))
 * I have removed the chart and given a one sentence summary of the data. If anyone wishes to add further information from the source, in text from, please feel free to do so.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 20:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Parking sourced text for discussion
A son of Joaquim Chissano, then President of Mozambique, and several of the children of his cabinet members received scholarships to Maharishi International University in the mid-1990s.{quotation needed|date=July 2012}
 * My issues with the above text which was in the Noted Alumni section are:
 * Its been tagged as quotation needed for 6 months. Is the source verifiable?
 * Allegedly the source says that several children received scholarships. OK, let's assume that's true. Is there any source that says they attended MUM? Were they scholarships for academic excellence? athletic excellence? Were they partial scholarships? Maybe the scholarships were a kind of invitation that was never accepted. Do we know? If not, how can we say they are alumni?
 * I don't think the content is appropriate or has any notability or relevance until we can confirm the existing citation and find additional RS's that explain the scholarships and how/if they were used. Comments?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 19:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with you: the quotation as is does not seem worth mentioning, even if the ref could be verified, because we don't know whether Chissano's kids actually attended the university. However, I looked in Google News archives and found a somewhat more detailed article on this topic by the same author, in the same month, but in the NY Times. The quotation in this case does include more specific detail on the attendance of the children of the Mozambique president, at MUM. Here's the link:
 * http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/10/world/beatles-guru-offers-nirvana-to-mozambique.html
 * And here's the more elaborated quotation (in about the 13th para): "Mr. Chissano's son and several other children of Cabinet members are studying on scholarships at the Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa, a liberal arts college that features daily meditation by all students, faculty and staff."
 * Perhaps the SF Chronicle had to cut for space, so that some info went by the wayside. So perhaps it is worth mentioning, using the more specific quotation, after all. EMP (talk 23:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice detective work. I've readded the info to the alumni section Thanks! --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 00:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Deletion of Gidley source
I'm not clear what policy or guideline would support this deletion. The book is published by an academic press. TimidGuy (talk) 15:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Gidley is a non-notable academic (whose article was recently deleted at AFD for no evidence of notability in six years); there is no justification to call out Gidley as if authoritative in the text, for example, or to put in single studies by a non-notable and not authoritative academic as if they are weighty. Given that, the work would probably need to be shown to be of any weight. WP:CHERRYPICKING is an essay on the hazards of such when attempting to find Wikipedia-quality reliable sources - David Gerard (talk) 18:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I was hoping you could point me to a relevant policy or guideline. My understanding is that books published by an academic press are considered RS. For example, "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." In any case, I took a look at the source, and it turns out that the citation was incorrect. Gidley wasn't the author of the chapter that was being cited. Regarding the sentence you removed, I do think there was an issue with NPOV and don't have any objection to your removing it. TimidGuy (talk) 09:35, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

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Name change
Here. Spicemix (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Unqualified lay-commentator - Michael D'Antonio
Quoting an unqualified lay-commentator - Michael D'Antonio, Under "Reception" - to comment on advanced physics and philosophy (in 1992) goes against Wikipedia standards, demotes wikipedia to the standard of an opinion blog, and is unethical in any scholarly understanding of ethics in encyclopaedic education. The sentences should be removed, or reported to Wikipedia standards. - Tommy Barlow, Vermont, USA.