Talk:Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa

This article reads like cult propaganda
It sticks out hard. It doesn't have anything to do with the religious aspects surrounding it either, even if you strip those completely away it's still offputting and feels like something Aum Shinrikyo or the Sannyasins would've spent money on to have written about their own private property. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.42.170.138 (talk) 09:03, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

How in the world?
How in the world does a place with a population of two hundred people get called a "city"?! Mathmo Talk 08:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa, USA incorporated on July 21, 2001"!


 * a) The designations such as City, Town, District etc are what is given by the govt [State or Central] and population is not the only criteria for that.


 * b) "Maharishi Vedic City" is still the name of the city even if it declared as a village sometime in the future. Just like Rhode-Island is not an independent island or a country, but its a state [that is its designation] in USA.


 * c) If population was the criteria, most cities would exist in Indian and China and most other 'cities' woiuld boil down to villages and communities :) !!Bheeshma 13:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This needs further discussion--it is not a city & oes not claim to be, its the name for one of the offshoots of Maharishi University of Management. I think it's worthless as a concept but an article on this has religious implications and I think needs discussion. I am about to send it for AfD. DGG 02:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In the AFD we've established it is recognized as a city by the state of Iowa and the US Census. --Dhartung | Talk 06:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Dhartung. I wonder why DGG was so certain it wasn't a city. TimidGuy 13:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Change redirect so that "Maharishi Vedic City" is main article
The city officially changed its name soon after incorporating, so it seems like the main article should be Maharishi Vedic City, and Vedic City should redirect to that, rather than vice versa, as it is now. I think it's just a matter of copying all the content to Maharishi Vedic City, then removing the redirect, then adding a redirect to Vedic City, right? TimidGuy 18:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Article history
It always bothered me that the Wikipedia article was title Vedic City, Iowa, given that the official name is Maharishi Vedic City. So I changed the redirects and put the content here. Most of the article history is at Vedic City, Iowa. I next put the article at Maharishi Vedic City, where there is also some article history. But then realized it should be Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa, and moved it here. Hope I didn't mess up. TimidGuy 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears the article was cut-and-paste moved. I've merged the history from Vedic City, Iowa and Maharishi Vedic City into the history here.  --Philosopher Let us reason together. 18:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also just merged talk page histories

Hindu?
Vedas = Hindu. But even otherwise, the Vedic City is obviously associated with Hinduism. Whether or not the residents call themselves Hindu is irrelevant, since the city is notably connected to the holy texts of Hinduism. Baka man  22:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems misleading. Just because the Hindus consider the Vedas holy texts doesn't mean that anything associated with the Vedas is associated with Hinduism. Maharishi has sought to identify the universal aspects of the Veda, rather than focusing on aspects that are culturally specific. He sees Hinduism as a culture that has grown up around this timeless knowledge but considers the knowledge itself to be eternal. By way of analogy, it's almost as if someone would categorize a city as Roman Catholic because some of the inhabitants read the Bible. Roman Catholicism is simply a specific cultural context for the more general notion of Christianity. Also, I think self-identification is important. No one in Maharishi Vedic City has any idea what constitutes Hinduism, and nor do they seem themselves as practicing Hinduism. They practice Transcendental Meditation. They live in houses that use features described by Sthapatya Veda. They take advantage of certain health guidelines offered by Ayurveda. If the residents in a certain city, say New York, practice Yoga, which they do, should that city then be added to the category Hinduism in America? I feel like Wikipedia should strive to be accurate, and associating Hinduism with Maharishi Vedic City seems inaccurate. The article you cited doesn't say anything about the city being Hindu. TimidGuy 19:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

population
Replying to this edit summary: "Are they official legal residents? Only US Census Bureau data are supposed to be used for population."

Yes, they're official legal residents. They have visas. Consider college campuses. All students are counted during a census, right, regardless of country of origin? This city is growing pretty fast. The Des Moines Register has also covered this. Seems like limiting to census data is misleading, since that data can't really track in a timely fashion the growth of this city. Even before the arrival of pandits, newspaper accounts give a population of well over 400. There are a lot of people there now -- approaching an order of magnitude beyond the census data. Seems like Wikipedia ought to be up to date. : ) And it can all be sourced. But whatever. TimidGuy (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Can't believe such a small thing would turn into a dispute. I'd be fine with leaving out the sentence about the projected population. I'd go ahead and delete it but would like to have consensus before deleting. Or we could move it later in the article. Maybe I'll go ahead and do that. TimidGuy (talk) 10:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Oops, I see it's already in a latter part of the article. Odd to have it there twice, so have deleted from the lead. TimidGuy (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kalash?
I don't think we have an article on this. It would be great if someone who knew more about this subject than I do could create an article or just provide a definition or explanation of what these are and why they are important. Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 02:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
What is the proper pronunciation of the city name? When the town was first founded, I remember it was intentionally pronounced "VAY-dic" to make it sound more Iowan. When the name was changed, there was was some confusion about how to pronounce "Mahahrishi". Most pronounced it "ma-ha-REE-she", but ads on Iowa Public Radio sponsored by the Maharishi Institute pronounced it "ma-HAR-ish-ee". Curious, Bill Whittaker (talk) 16:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC).

Double Speak?
We have the sentence: "Residents may believe that group practice of this technique "will create coherence for the whole country". We could also say that "Residents may believe that black is white and up is down".  Can't we do better?  --BwB (talk) 20:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you questioning the "may" part? Nyttend (talk) 01:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Nyttend. Wonder why we have to say "may"? Maybe we cannot say directly that the residence believe the technique "will create coherence for the whole country". Perhaps we can reword the sentence. --BwB (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd not paid attention to this sentence before, so good point. I asked you before, not to challenge you, but to clarify whether you were questioning that part or another part of the statement.  What about simply removing it?  Nyttend (talk) 00:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Did not feel challenged, Nyttend. I simply want to improve the article. I have reworded the sentence to read: "Residents subscribe to the theory that group practice of this technique "will create coherence for the whole country". --BwB (talk) 14:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

TMM
In the lede we are told that MMY founded the TMM, but the references do not support this. Perhaps we can find other references, or delete text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigweeboy (talk • contribs)
 * It's not hard to find Sources that say he founded it. I'll add one   Will Beback    talk    18:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This origin message was mine. I forgot to sign it, sorry. --BwB (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Notable residents
The usual standard across Wikipedia is to limit these sections to those who have articles written about them, i.e. "blue links". Exceptions are made for those who clearly meet the notability guidelines even if articles haven't yet been written. I don't see how the three people added to the article would meet those guidelines. Unless more info is added or articles are created I suggest that we remove those.  Will Beback   talk    21:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I assume the above comment is from the ubiquitous Mr. Will :-) and I was not aware of this custom to only include 'blue link' people, (with exceptions). No problem, I just included those banana heads, because I came across them in a source I was using and thought it would 'spice up' the article. But I also have no problem in removing them. Thanks for the heads up. -- — Kbob • Talk  • 21:55, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The practice may be observed by looking at any city article.   Will Beback    talk    22:08, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd never heard the term "banana heads" before, but I gather it's derogatory. Whatever we think of them personally, perhaps there's a more diplomatic way of referring to them here.   Will Beback    talk    22:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Its a term my kids use when we fool around and I was using it in the same light and playful way. Sorry if you mis-interpreted it.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 22:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the section per the above discussion.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 19:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Egenes
If we're going to make extensive use of the article by Linda Egenes then we should mention that she is a writing instructor at MUM. Right now the article is cited seven times, more than any other source.  Will Beback   talk    21:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Will, my friend, your taking this one too far. The article was submitted for publication and had editing oversight from a reliable publication. And the article is not about MUM. I don't see any need for special mention on such a non-contentious topic. I will also be adding more sources too!-- — Kbob • Talk  • 21:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * More sources would be great. But identifying the relevant affiliation of a main source is not going too far.   Will Beback    talk    22:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No need to mention connection of Egness to MUM. This is a non-TMM article. Glad to see you both having fun Will and Kbobb!  --BwB (talk) 14:01, 13 January 2

010 (UTC)
 * "Non-TMM article"? What does that mean?   Will Beback    talk    17:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the main thing is that its not an article related to MUM and received editorial overview to boot. Also, I'm not sure what policy you are sighting in this regard Will. If you wouldn't mind mentioning a policy or guideline that requires this kind of an ID in an article, that would be helpful to the discussion. Thanks!-- — Kbob • Talk  • 19:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

And so on. MVC and MUM are closely connected.  Will Beback   talk    21:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Vedic Health Care: Probably the healthiest city in America, the City is the home to the College of Maharishi Vedic Medicine of Maharishi University of Management and The Raj, America’s flagship health center and spa based on the natural, prevention-oriented Maharishi Vedic Approach to HealthSM.
 * Drop by the Visitors Center at the Raj between 9:30 and 4:30 any day of the week to pick up maps, brochures, and a self-tour guide to Maharishi Vedic City and  Maharishi University of Management, with an informative overview about living  and learning in harmony with Natural Law. A special brief videotape orientation by the Mayor, Dr. Robert Wynne, will get you started. Free.
 * Best Bet — City Tour: Visit the campus of Maharishi University of Management, including the Golden Domes, where 1,000 experts gather twice daily to practice Transcendental Meditation and Yogic Flying to promote peace and harmony in the world.
 * Attractions: Rukmapura Park Hotel; trails, parks and lake; Raj Hotel and Resort; Maharishi Vedic Observatory; Maharishi University of Management; Maharishi Open University; Organic Vegetarian Restaurants.
 * MUM Board of Trustees: Robert G. Wynne is Mayor of Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa, ... Rogers Badgett is a Member of the City Council of Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa.
 * Sanford I. Nidich Natural Medicine and Prevention, Maharishi University of Management Research Institute, Maharishi Vedic City, Iowa


 * So far of am not aware of any Wiki policy that supports your initial statement in this thread. However, in the spirit of cooperation and compromise I have reduced the number of times said ref appears in the article as it was cited repetitively for several related sentences which I have now combined. At present we have 32 inline citations in the article and only four of them are from the AAA Magazine article. Two of those four act as supportive citations. So I don't see any way that we are making "extensive use of the article" and it is no longer cited "more than any other source" as the American Way article is cited five times and the NYT six times. This should resolve the issue completely.-- — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 14:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

$8 billion a year
We don't list any companies being headquartered in MVC, and the only economic activities mentioned in this article are the spa/hotel and the organic farming. Other than the pundits, there are only about 200 residents. This therefore seems like an extraordinary claim. House King magazine may be a good source for architectural and interior design issues, though even that is questionable since it was a short-lived enterprise that seems to have mostly been an appendix to a real estate sales website. The magazine was not concerned with reporting economic activity so it is a weak source for this assertion. Further, the source refers to the area rather than the city, so the exact claim isn't even clear. Unless we can find a better source I will delete this.  Will Beback   talk    20:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The city is reported to apparently have a "disproportionate share of entrepreneurial and economic success" that generates "close to $8 billion a year".
 * de Vecchiarelli, Lillian Delgado (April 2006). "Vedic Architecture: A millenary practice is reborn". House King magazine: pp. 97–102.
 * It apparently also has a disproportionate share of entrepreneurial and economic success that brings close to $8 billion a year to the area.


 * This document appears to be some sort of case study of Fairfield' entrepreneurial growth that's quite sympathetic. It's dated 2006, the same year as the "House King" article. It gives a relatively detailed financial analysis of the region, though focused on new business. In any case, it doesn't even hint at anything like even $1 billion coming through the local economy.


 * I'd also point to the source's phrase: "disproportionate share". As of 2006, the population of MVC was 222 people. The population of the county was 16,181 in 2000. Assuming that the county population hasn't grown significantly, the proportionate share of the county's economic activity would be something like 222/16181 or 1.37%. In other words, if MVC had a 2% share of this supposed $8 billion that would be a disproportionate share. Even then, that's $160 million. Do we have any indication that MVC businesses are generating that kind of revenue? I'd be surprised if the Raj and the organic farm get even 1/10 of that. Overall, the text in the article seems misleading if not downright incorrect.   Will Beback    talk    23:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I just checked the Gale Business & Company Resource Center database. Of companies in Fairfield, the 53 listed businesses generate around $500 million per year in gross revenue (the biggest is Telegroup, at $177 million). It doesn't list Danaher Oil or Cambridge investment Research, which are apparently significant companies as well. With brokerage activity the value of the products or securities being traded may be far in excess to the actual revenue being generate, so some care is need to get a useful figure for those if we had that information. Even so, it's hard to see how the Fairfield business could earn even $1 billion annually.   Will Beback    talk    00:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeing no response, I'll go ahead and delete it.   Will Beback    talk    00:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * While I don't care about this content, we cannot, unless we apply this kind of reasoning and editing across the board on all content that is questionable in terms of truth and accuracy, delete sourced content. You are researching the topic and arriving at your own conclusion, then removing content based on that. We've had multiple discussions in which content was questioned and always we came back to, stick to the source. Its legitimate to assess content this way as we strive for accuracy but its not legitimate unless we employ this way of dealing with questioned content across the board. So this is notice that I expect this to be the beginning of larger discussions consistently applied on all questionable content.(olive (talk) 00:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC))
 * The question is, is it a reliable source for something like the level economic activity? It's a defunct glorified sales rag, with no reputation for independent editorial review or source checking that I can discern. It is just an advertisment. As Will has pointed out, there is no way that MVC, Fairfield, or even all of Jefferson County has $8 billion of economic activity. See the US Census Bureau data for the County.  Are we to treat those sources as meriting equal weight? Is the article to say, "according to House King, the area GDP is 8 billion, but the Census Bureau shows that that Jefferson County GDP is less than 1 billion"?  Fladrif (talk) 03:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So there are two issues: the claim and the source. The claim is extraordinary (and vague at the same time). Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. The source is extremely weak. House King doesn't have an entry in Worldcat, meaning its brief run is not archived in any library. Its website is long gone. So the only way we can obtain this source is from the website of the company that sells the service profiled in the article. The magazine has no reputation, and neither does the writer. On reflection, we should probably remove it as a source entirely. It's mostly used for uncontroversial and often repeated statements about MSV principles.     Will Beback    talk    04:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not think that it qualifies as a reliable source. Also - and this is a complete aside, a good rule of thumb is that when a figure like $X billion of economic activity or impact is used, there will be roughly 1 job created for every $100,000. The claim that there is $8 billion of business would imply ~80,000 jobs: more than the entire working-age adult population of Jefferson and the six surrounding counties combined. Fladrif (talk) 16:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to a copy of House King, but I'm starting to wonder if there's a missing decimal point. Seriously. Jefferson County has a labor force of ~8200 and ~7800 jobs; to support that level of employment, it probably has a total economy on the order of $800 million at best, taking into account all the multipliers. The seven-county region has a total labor force of ~66,000 and ~52,000 jobs, which would indicate a total regional economy on the order of $5 billion. Fladrif (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a strangely worded assertion. What does "apparently" mean in this context? What is the "area" being described? I think it's indicative of a free-lance writer who doesn't really know what she's talking about.   Will Beback    talk    21:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The source doesn't seem to be reliable, and the content is in no way critical so I would agree to remove it.(olive (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2010 (UTC))
 * I've also left a note at Talk:Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, the other article that uses this source.   Will Beback    talk    21:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's another source "The area is also quite prosperous, with Cambridge Investment Research and other locally based firms filtering as much as $8 billion in managed funds through Fairfield County and Maharishi Vedic City within the last year." American Way magazine, Home and Peace, William Kissel, July 15,2005 --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This seems like a reliable source and could be added to the article. --BwB (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This seems like a reliable source? How so?
 * It looks to me like Cambridge Investment Research is not within the city limits and is in unincorporated Jefferson County. If so, the county article would be the place for that information, assuming there's a reliable source.   Will Beback    talk    19:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems to be in Fairfield Iowa . In addition to their own admission that they are in Fairfield (on their web site), the the zip code 52556 is for Fairfield.(olive (talk) 20:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
 * I would be very skeptical of an airline magazine as a reliable source. The figure of $8 billion in managed assets is not credible, and conflicts with much lower figures listed in articles linked at Cambridge's own website. Also, while it may have HQ in Fairfield, the overwheming majority of the company's business is through independent brokers/advisors all over the country, so "filtering....managed funds through Fairfield.." is a gross misstatement. I would delete this article as a reference and all text based on it. Fladrif (talk) 20:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I have no attachment... just providing information. The source sounds iffy(olive (talk) 20:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC))
 * I've seen articles from airline mags used as sources in other Wiki topics. --BwB (talk) 20:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So? WP:OTHERSTUFF Kissel is the fashion editor at the LA Times. The statement and figures you want to use are demonstrably 100% wrong according to the company's own website. You really want to argue that this is a reliable source? Fladrif (talk) 20:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm going to back away and leave you all to it, since I just don't have enough information.(olive (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC))


 * This is the talk page for MVC, not Fairfield. Regardless, it's clear that the CIR office is outside of both cities.   Will Beback    talk    22:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, It's hard to find zip code boundaries, but it looks like 52556 covers the whole Fairfield area. MVC uses the same zip code, for example.   Will Beback    talk    22:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Detours magazine
The automatic use of student publications as reliable sources for non-collegiate articles has not, so far as I know, received consensus by the community, and instead are treated on a case-by-case basis. Truman State University has fewer than 6,000 students, making it on the small-to-medium size. It does not have a journalism school, nor a notable student newspaper. It does have a masthead with an editor and staff. I've written to their email address to ask how ling they've been publishing, etc. Anyway, does anyone have a problem with using a student newspaper or magazine as a source for TM-related articles? I'm not sure that travel magazines, student or commercial, have a good reputation for reliability.  Will Beback   talk    10:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Detours magazine is a travel magazine produced by students at Truman State University. It focuses on the tri-state area of Missouri, Iowa and Illinois. It was first published in 1996 and features little-known treasures throughout the Midwest. Story ideas and contributions are always welcome.
 * Good research. Since there are so few of us here on this article, we could run it by the folks at RSN. I'm happy to go with whatever the consensus is there.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 20:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Go for it.   Will Beback    talk    23:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

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