Talk:Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation

Great start and a bit of undue weight
Thanks Kbob. This is a great start to the article. My sense right now is that the two lawsuits are pretty heavily featured. A single lawsuit shouldn't outweigh information on the organization I wouldn't think. Hopefully more content on the organizations themsleves can be added to create balance in those areas.(olive (talk) 17:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC))


 * In don't see a source for the info in the lede. Am I missing something.(olive (talk) 17:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Good point, I fixed that.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 19:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That first ref seems to be non working.(olive (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC))


 * OK, fixed it.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 03:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nice new article Kbob. I would move the "Lawsuit" section below "Prior organizations" the other paragraphs are more descriptive of the organizations and its activities and they belong together sequentially. By the way, can we expect a more exhaustive description of the programs offered by MVED?--Luke Warmwater101 (talk) 17:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Luke. The lawsuit section refers to MVED while the civil suit refers to GCWP, which is why they are in sections pertinent to the headings and subheadings. (olive (talk) 18:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC))

Removed topic "Civil Suit"
I have remove the following section as it is not about MVED.


 * In a civil suit against the World Plan Executive Council filed in 1985, Robert Kropinski claimed fraud, psychological, physical, and emotional harm as a result of the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs. The district court dismissed Kropinski's claims concerning intentional tort and negligent infliction of emotional distress, and referred the claims of fraud and negligent infliction of physical and psychological injuries to a jury trial. The jury awarded Robert Kropinski $137,890 in the fraud and negligence claims. The appellate court overturned the award and dismissed Kropinski's claim alleging psychological damage. It also dismissed testimony related to the fraud claim. The claim of fraud and the claim of a physical injury related to his practice of the TM-Sidhi program were remanded to the lower court for retrial, and the parties then settled these remaining claims out of court.


 * For now I reverted your deletion since the civil suit is in a historical section on GCWP, and specifically is a historical point. Any other opinions?(olive (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC))


 * I would take a middle road. It has some relevance because WPEC was the precursor of MVED. However, in its current state it gives undue weight to an off topic aspect of the Distance Education article. So maybe it could be cut back and placed in the section on WPEC instead of having a special LawSuit section.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 20:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say if it has relevance at all it is in ref to WPEC .I did move it there. Now if it needs to be cut back I would be fine with that.(olive (talk) 20:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Yes, your move is good. I'm suggesting that we cut back the info on that topic and remove the separate heading "Civil Suit".-- — Kbob • Talk  • 21:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Kbob and Olive, I do not agree that the Civil Suit should be in the article. The events of the suit happened long before MVED was formed and it has no baring on the operations of MVED and, therefore, should not be a topic for the Wiki article on MVED. --BwB (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The civil suit was part of the history of WPEC. WPEC is part of the article as part of the history of  MVED.(olive (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

"Your head bone connected from your neck bone, Your neck bone connected from your shoulder bone, Your shoulder bone connected from your back bone, Your back bone connected from your hip bone, Your hip bone connected from your thigh bone, Your thigh bone connected from your knee bone, Your knee bone connected from your leg bone, Your leg bone connected from your ankle bone, Your ankle bone connected from your foot bone, Your foot bone connected from your toe bone, I hear the word of the Lord!" --BwB (talk) 15:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The Civil Suit is given too much weight relative to the history of MVED. --BwB (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the correct weight? If you look through 3rd-party sources, which issues receive the greatest weight?   Will Beback    talk    19:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Revision to the MUM/MVED Law Suit
Since all allegations were dismissed I recommend we summarize the section as follows:


 * A lawsuit was filed as a result of a murder at Maharishi University of Management (M.U.M.) in Fairfield, Iowa on March 1, 2004.[9] The suit alleged that MVED was guilty of negligent representation and that MVED had direct liability for the death of the student. In 2008 all charges against MVED were dismissed by Judge James E. Griztner of the U.S. District Court and the law suit was dropped. -- — Kbob •  Talk  • 19:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Since there doesn't seem to be any objections. I have made the revision as outline above.-- — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 16:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Good edit, Kbobb. --BwB (talk) 00:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No secondary sources for MVEDC?
Among the secondary sources with active links (many are dead), none seem to mention the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. Many of them mention World Plan Executive Council. Should the name of the article be changed to the actual topic? What secondary sources mention the MVEDC?  Will Beback   talk    00:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Will, thanks for the heads up on the links, I tweaked a number of them so they are now working. One still remains out of order and two are for the Malnak vs. Yogi court case and we'll see if they cannot also be corrected in the near future. There are 43 citations in the article. Only 7 of them are first or second party sources. The remaining 36 citation are from third party sources. Yes, some of them mention WPEC because that is a sub topic, just like the court cases. Not sure what you mean by "Should the name of the article be changed to the actual topic?".--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 18:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Which secondary sources discuss the nominal topic of this article, "Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation"? I couldn't find any among the citations.   Will Beback    talk    20:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * MVEDC is mentioned by name in secondary source citations 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 12, 16, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24 and 25. In addition WPEC, the predecessor of MVEDC, is mentioned by name in secondary source citations 31, 32, 33, 34, 36, 37, 38, 40 and 43.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 00:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You may not be aware of the meaning of "secondary source". A secretary of state filing or a court case is primary source. See WP:PSTS. I see only two secondary sources on that list, "Greater Tulsa Reporter" and "The big fish: consciousness as structure, body and space". The latter only mentions MVEDC in the context of acknowledging a copyright holder, which is trivial. The GTR article says this:
 * In a November 2003 article in The Hartford Advocate, Chris Harris reports, “In 1994, the bearded popularizer of TM’s enigmatic and faceless Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation purchased the Clarion Hotel building on Constitution Plaza, and there, in full view of the bustle of I-91, the dilapidated edifice has sat—a vacant, untouched, neglected eyesore, and a billboard advertising Hartford’s urban ruin.” Harris goes on to write, “There were plans to convert the hotel into one of his Maharishi Vedic Universities, where students would be schooled in the ways of transcendental meditation. But again, no action, and now, in 2003, the hotel lies in wait, its future uncertain.” According to Harris’ article, the Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation purchased the property for $1.5 million and in 1998, after years of decline, put it on the market for $14 million. As of 2003, it remained unsold, but was still on the market although the realtor would not discuss the asking price with Harris. The realtor did offer, though, that he had had several offers coming in from around the world.
 * It says nothing about the MVEDC except that it is "enigmatic and faceless", and that it purchased a derelict hotel in Tulsa. If we limit ourselves to what is in those source then this will be a very short article indeed. What source says that the MVEDC is the successor to the WPEC?   Will Beback    talk    00:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Once more, we shouldn't be using primary sources for anything more than minor details of things already covered in reliable secondary sources. The court cases in particular are unsuitable unless we have some significant secondary sources that cover the same info.   Will Beback    talk    04:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

ABUSE
Here is a perfect example of the abuse of the editing process that occurs again and again in these articles by the TM-Org affilited editors. Material that was originally added and properly sourced in the TM article, regarding the 60 products and services being offered gets moved, the text gets changed and then the same person who changed the text now claims that the source doesn't support the text and that it's a "questionable" source. This is absolutely unacceptable, it is disruptive, and it is contrary to the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. This has to come to a stop. Fladrif (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Who was responsible for moving the 60 products and services and the split off of material not related directly to the technique. Could you provide diffs showing who specifically was responsible for making the decision to move this content, and then who moved it.... to support your accusations (olive (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC))


 * There has been a new section added called "Purusha and Mother Divine". Are these programs offered by MVED?  Do the sources references demonstrate the MVED connection?  It seems that "the source doesn't support the text". --BwB (talk) 02:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * They are listed as trademarks owned by MVED so it seems they have a much right to be in the article as the other trademarked programs such as Maharishi Ayurveda etc.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 04:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I did not know that Kbob. Thanks for pointing it out. The references cited do not mention that, do they? --BwB (talk) 20:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Move section pending sources
Kbob says above he is looking for sources that make the connection between MVEDC and WPEC. I have moved the section here until he finds those sources since without them the section doesn't connect to the article topic.(olive (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC))


 * I don't think that's the problem. If we limit this article to the MVEDC then it will tbe two sentencs long. The real scope of this article is the "Transcendental Meditation movement", and that should be its name.   Will Beback    talk    17:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Until a decision is made as to what to call the so-called mother article, we have to deal with what is in front of us, and that's content that so far isn't connected to the article topic/subject. since Kbob says he'd like to try and find other sources, I'm fine with giving him time to try and do that. No reason to rush is there? (olive (talk) 17:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC))
 * We have only one secondary sources for the MVEDC, and it has basically a two-word summary of the institution. If this is the existing topic then the article should be cut down to what can be found in secondary sources. Which means that this article would be a paragraph or less. Any objections to getting rid of everything that isn't MVEDC? If so, please look at WP:COATRACK.   Will Beback    talk    02:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As you mentioned earlier I was confusing and combining 2nd Party Sources with Secondary Sources. There are a number of reliable 2nd party sources from governmental organizations etc. in the article. Now that I have the terms straight I agree that the article could use more secondary sources. There are actually a few there, including one I added yesterday, but as you say the coverage they provide on the topic is limited. So I am in agreement that more secondary sources are needed. This is the first article that I have created on Wiki and though it was not my intention, I believe it could become a Coatrack article if we are not careful. To deter this we could consider removing some related content such as the descriptions of programs offered by MVED until more secondary sources become available.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 18:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's already a coatrack article. If we cut it down to what we can say about MVEDC from reliable secondary sources it'd be a few lines. Any objections to removing the parts that aren't about MVEDC (as was partially done below already)? Also, could you please be less mysterious - what source did you add?   Will Beback    talk    18:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Please see new thread at the bottom of the page regarding Secondary Sources added.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 06:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do we keep creating new threads?   Will Beback    talk    07:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

World Plan Executive Council
A former organization named World Plan Executive Council (WPEC) was a provider of courses for the Transcendental Meditation technique and other related programs. In 1972, the Maharishi announced his “world plan” for a new human future. This plan became the foundation for the World Plan Executive Council, the organization of the Transcendental Meditation movement. WPEC contained divisions for the introduction of the Transcendental Meditation technique into a particular areas of society such as business and industry.

Law suits
In 1979, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the decision of the US District Court of New Jersey in the case of Malnak vs. Yogi that a curriculum in the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)/Transcendental Meditation, was religious activity within the meaning of the Establishment Clause and that the teaching of SCI/TM in the New Jersey public high schools was prohibited by the First Amendment. The court ruled that, although SCI/TM is not a theistic religion, it deals with issues of ultimate concern, truth, and other ideas analogous to those in well-recognized religions.

In 1985, a civil suit was filed against the World Plan Executive Council. Robert Kropinski claimed fraud, psychological, physical, and emotional harm as a result of the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs. The district court dismissed Kropinski's claims concerning intentional tort and negligent infliction of emotional distress, and referred the claims of fraud and negligent infliction of physical and psychological injuries to a jury trial. The jury awarded Robert Kropinski $137,890 in the fraud and negligence claims. The appellate court overturned the award and dismissed Kropinski's claim alleging psychological damage. It also dismissed testimony related to the fraud claim. The claim of fraud and the claim of a physical injury related to his practice of the TM-Sidhi program were remanded to the lower court for retrial, and the parties then settled these remaining claims out of court.

Other prior organizations
In the past the Transcendental Meditation technique was taught under the auspices of several other organizations.

The first organization was the "Spiritual Regeneration Movement Foundation" (SRMF), which was incorporated in California in 1959 and later dissolved.

The "International Meditation Society"(IMS) was also created around the year 1959 and the "Students International Meditation Society" (SIMS) was created in 1965.

Another organization offering the Transcendental Meditation technique to businesses in the 1970s was the "American Foundation for the Science of Creative Intelligence" (AFSCI).

According to TM teacher Tony Miles, the Transcendental Meditation technique is one of sixty courses and services offered by the Transcendental Meditation movement through its centers.

Maharishi Vedic Science programs
Maharishi Vedic Science, or MVS, is based on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's interpretation of the ancient Vedic texts. MVS includes two aspects, the practical aspect of the Transcendental Meditation technique and the TM-Sidhi program, as well as the theoretical aspect of how MVS is applied to day-to-day living.

Maharishi Ayurveda
Maharishi Ayurveda  was founded internationally in the mid 1980s by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Although Ayurveda has been in existence for centuries, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi restored some aspects of this system of natural health care. This revised system of Ayurveda was endorsed by the All India Ayurvedic Congress in 1997. Maharishi Ayurveda is considered an alternative medicine and aims at being a complementary system to modern western medicine.

Maharishi Sthapatya Veda
Maharishi Sthapatya Veda is based on an ancient system of Vedic architecture and concerns itself with architectural design and construction. The system consists of precise mathematical formulas, equations, and proportions for architectural design and construction. According to Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, the arrangement and layout of a building have beneficial effects on the lives of those who live or work in it. The terms Maharishi Sthapatya Veda and Maharishi Global Construction are registered or common law trademarks licensed to Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation.

Purusha and Mother Divine Programs
Among the advanced programs offered by the TM organization are the Purusha and Mother Divine programs, long-term residential programs for TM "monks" and "nuns", respectively, involving a lifestyle of celibacy and meditation. . In the US, separate campuses of the Purusha and Mother Divine programs were formerly located outside Boone, NC, adjacent to the Maharishi Spiritual Center of America. As of 2002, the Purusha program for men and the Mother Divine program for women involved 310 men and 100 women respectively, on separate campuses. The Purusha and Mother Divine programs involve 4 1/2 hours of meditation in the morning,  fundraising or work for the nonprofit entities associated with the Spiritual Center in the afternoons, and then group meditation in the evening. Both the Purusha and Mother Divine programs include reading and study of Vedic literature, and instruction in Sanskrit and Vedic science. While participation in the Purusha or Mother Divine programs requires a minimum 3-month commitment, many participants have been part of this program for 20 years or more. In 2004, the campuses were moved to Fairfield, Iowa.

Moved
I've copied this material to Transcendental Meditation movement.  Will Beback   talk    18:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Secondary Sources Added
I have just added some secondary sources. We now have 12 that specifically cover MVEDC plus some good 2nd party/primary sources like government registations and court cases to supplement the secondary sources. For your convenience I am listing the MVEDC secondary sources here: --<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 06:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wall Street Journal, Meditating for Heart Health, Laura Johannes, March 7 2006
 * NY Times, Earth's Future Peacemakers Just Need a Little TM, November 14 2005
 * Portland Press Herald, High on the Peace Plane, May 21, 2005
 * Charleston Daily Mail, Meditation Retreat Planned for Panhandle, January 7 2009
 * International Herald Tribune, Building the Maharishi Effect, December 2 2008
 * NY Times, Building the Maharishi effect one peace palace at a time, Dec 2 2008
 * The Edge Magazine: Soul of the Cities HARMONY: Living in Balance, The Maharishi Invincibility Center, Tim Miejan, Pages 32-34 (correction, this article does not mention MVED direclty)
 * Philosophers and Religious Leaders, Christian D. Von Dehsen, Scott L. Harris, Chapter Maharishi Mahesh Yogi p. 120,
 * The PDR family guide to natural medicines and healing therapies, By Physicians Desk Reference, p. 188
 * Wilkes Barre Times Leader, Meditation Program Sessions at Osterhout, September 26 1998
 * Gurus In America, Thomas A. Forsthoefel, Cynthia Ann Humes, p. 75
 * GTR Newspapers Oct 26, 2005
 * Great. We still need to reduce the number of primary sources, but the secondary sources are an improvement, I'm sure.   Will Beback    talk    06:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

So based on these sources, we can say that the MVEDC handles the training, at a cost of $2,500 per course, that it owns the schools and the trademarks, that it develops the Peace Palaces (including buying an old hotel), and that it is known as "enigmatic and faceless". The Global Country is an affiliate. Is that about right?  Will Beback   talk    07:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corp., a Fairfield, Iowa, nonprofit that sponsors courses, recommends two 20-minute sessions daily of the meditation, which involves silently repeating a short sound chosen for you by your teacher. 
 * Wall Street Journal, Meditating for Heart Health, Laura Johannes, March 7 2006
 * Training is led by instructors from the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation, also in Fairfield, Iowa. The seven-step program costs $2,500 a student.
 * NY Times, Earth's Future Peacemakers Just Need a Little TM, November 14 2005
 * Roger and Katie are both certified TM instructors, overseen by the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corp. They helped open a TM center on Forest Avenue in the mid-1990s, when they still worked in Massachusetts. The corporation decided to close the center and focus on new buildings at the time, Roger Grose said. A new center is just the beginning for the future of TM here, the Groses said. They are raising money for a so-called Peace Palace, to be built at a cost of up to $3 million, somewhere in greater Portland. Funds will also come from the Maharishi's diverse organizations. Roger Grose said he has been searching for appropriate land for the past year. 
 * Portland Press Herald, High on the Peace Plane, May 21, 2005
 * Global Country is affiliated with the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corp., which subscribes to the transcendental teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. It has "peace palaces and "enlightenment centers in nearly 30 states.
 * Charleston Daily Mail, Meditation Retreat Planned for Panhandle, January 7 2009
 * “The upside to it is in the recognition. In every town where there’s a peace palace, people will realize this is what it looks like,” said Richard Quinn, director of project finance for the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation, which oversees palace development in the United States.
 * NY Times, Building the Maharishi effect one peace palace at a time, Feb 22 2008 <-- note corrected date
 * Mentions Peace Palaces, but not MVEDC
 * Inside the Twin Cities Maharishi Invincibility Center, The Edge. October 2009,  <-- Note date and URL
 * Founded in 1973 by the organization known today as the "Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation," the MIU was the first of the organization's schools... [..] In the years since then, Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation has created manifold educational enterprises working with trademarks ... and through privately owned schools and teaching centers Some of the schools currently owned by the corporation are ...
 * There is no licensing or certification procedure for teachers of meditation, and no central directory of practitioners. There transcendental meditation medthod has a number of "universities" around the country, run by the Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation.
 * The PDR family guide to natural medicines and healing therapies, By Physicians Desk Reference, p. 188
 * Quote cite please
 * Wilkes Barre Times Leader, Meditation Program Sessions at Osterhout, September 26 1998
 * Copyright notice
 * Gurus In America, Thomas A. Forsthoefel, Cynthia Ann Humes, p. 75
 * In a November 2003 article in The Hartford Advocate, Chris Harris reports, “In 1994, the bearded popularizer of TM’s enigmatic and faceless Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation purchased the Clarion Hotel building on Constitution Plaza, ... According to Harris’ article, the Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation purchased the property for $1.5 million and in 1998, after years of decline, put it on the market for $14 million. As of 2003, it remained unsold, but was still on the market although the realtor would not discuss the asking price with Harris. The realtor did offer, though, that he had had several offers coming in from around the world.
 * GTR Newspapers Oct 26, 2005
 * GTR Newspapers Oct 26, 2005


 * The sources say what they say and what they say I have incorporated into the article as accurately as possible. The best way to summarize the sources is to refer to the article. I'm confused here. You seem to want to criticize and trivialize the sources and the article as a whole. It is a new article. Let's work together to strengthen and develop it as we would with any Wiki topic. --<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 13:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh? I have done nothing to criticize or trivialize the sources. On the contrary. Articles should be written based on sources, and these are the secondary sources we have which discuss MVEDC, the topic of the article. BTW - I couldn't find the "Wilkes Barre Times Leader" - could you quote the portion that discusses the MVEDC to complete the listing?   Will Beback    talk    17:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Transcendental Meditation movement
I copied much of this article to Transcendental Meditation movement. I suggest that this article be trimmed to the material about MVEDC itself.  Will Beback   talk    18:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Notablility Tag
Don't understand this tag and request for secondary sources. At present the article contains 36 citations derived from reliable secondary sources including the Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribue and three articles published in the New York Times. --<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 21:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * None of them are about MVEDC - they just mention it in passing.   Will Beback    talk    22:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Merger
Recently I saw some editor suggestions that the TM Movement article was getting too large and maybe some sub topics should be broken off. Why do we want to take an established, well sourced article and merge it? What is the thinking behind this proposed merger?--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Kbob</b> • Talk  • 21:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The original target was Transcendental Meditation movement. That article has now been split, so the new target is Organizations associated with the Transcendental Meditation movement. Nonetheless, the discussion is at Talk:Transcendental Meditation movement. We might as well continue it there.   Will Beback    talk    22:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)