Talk:Mahmoud Abbas/Archive 3

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2017
"Abbas dismissed as a "myth"a and "fantastic lie" that six million Jews had died" should be changed to "Abbas dismissed as a "myth" and a "fantastic lie" that six million Jews had died" Davidbgeek (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks. Debresser (talk) 18:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 6 external links on Mahmoud Abbas. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.asp?xfile=data%2Fmiddleeast%2F2008%2FNovember%2Fmiddleeast_November480.xml&section=middleeast
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713125154/http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1228728196512 to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1228728196512
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713125228/http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424896056&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424896056&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713125154/http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1228728196512 to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1228728196512
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080521093753/http://www.upi.com/International_Security/Emerging_Threats/Analysis/2008/05/20/analysis_the_palestinians_trump_card/6996/ to http://www.upi.com/International_Security/Emerging_Threats/Analysis/2008/05/20/analysis_the_palestinians_trump_card/6996/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040614004609/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5197317/site/newsweek/ to http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/people/112.shtml

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External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/647/re2.htmnegotiat
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151017124625/http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/terrorism/palestinian/pages/suicide%20and%20other%20bombing%20attacks%20in%20israel%20since.aspx to http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/terrorism/palestinian/pages/suicide%20and%20other%20bombing%20attacks%20in%20israel%20since.aspx

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Holocaust Denial is Anti-Semitism
From Mahmoud Abbas: "His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, which, following his appointment as Palestinian Prime Minister in 2003, was heavily criticized as an example of Holocaust denial. In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were used for the extermination of Jews, and suggested that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was "less than a million." "

From another Talk page: ''Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic. Jayjg (talk) 04:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)''

Therefore, this person should be in the category Anti-Semitism, no?--68.211.197.252 06:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. In my mind, two questions need to be resolved before he should be labeled: 1) When was his thesis written?; and, 2) Is there any indication that he has changed his tune since then?  You may ask: why do these questions matter? Well... Thirty years ago, Abbas agreed to accept the existence of Israel...  Perhaps he has publicly agreed to accept the tragic reality of the Holocaust as well.  If he has, I think his essay should be forgiven but not forgotten.--(Mingus ah um 02:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

Mingus, nothing is forgiven. Abbas has not changed and never apologized. His book is filled with antisemitic propaganda & Holocaust denial. There is a new book in Hebrew called "The Holocaust in the eyes of Mahmoud Abbas", which explains his views and quotes what he wrote. I hope that in the future this book will be translated to English.--Jane955 (talk) 00:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, here's a quote from him that's in the article: "The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it." I'd say that's pretty unambiguous. --Delirium 20:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Him thinking that the Holocaust is terrible has nothing to do with him also believing that 'Zionists inflated Holocaust victim counts'. Holocaust denial encompasses revision of the number of victims as well, and you have not shown that he has retracted that position. What is strange about that?  Tewfik Talk 06:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You claim that he is currently a Holocaust denier. If that is true, please cite a reliable source corroborating that claim. For example, does the Anti-Defamation League consider him a Holocaust denier? Does anyone except some Wikipedia editors accuse him of, at the present time, being a Holocaust denier? Your personal conclusions do not constitute sufficient evidence under WP:BLP to include a potentially libelous claim in the article. --Delirium 08:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I need not claim that he is currently a holocaust denier - that he was once prominently and notably one would be sufficient, just as he will remain categorised as a Palestinian and politician even if he renounces his nationality and occupation, since he was significantly both. Regarding what the ADL, they specifically address the 2003 interview saying "no clear statement was forthcoming", while he is still included in Wyman Institute's 2004 Global Survey of Holocaust Denial (multiple mentions). I don't grant Norman Finkelstein very much weight, but on Democracy Now! he said "Abbas is an authentic Holocaust denier".  Tewfik Talk 19:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Is Raul Hilberg a Holocaust denier for tossing an (low) estimate of 5.1 million around? I too find Abbas's first statement both repugnant and factually inaccurate, but I think it cheapens the seriousness of the charge to collapse Abbas's stance with (say) Ahmadinejad's.  To me, Holocaust denial is denial of the historicity of the implementation of the "Final Solution," from Wannsee to Auschwitz.  Billbrock 04:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I just glanced at the Finkelstein interview on Democracy Now cited above. I'll retract my remark re Abbas--denial of the camps would make one a Holocaust denier....  Billbrock 04:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120320091233/http://www.sweetspeeches.com/s/2546-mahmoud-abbas-mahmoud-abbas-un-speech-calling-for-a-palestinian-state to http://www.sweetspeeches.com/s/2546-mahmoud-abbas-mahmoud-abbas-un-speech-calling-for-a-palestinian-state

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Religion
For the record, the Bahai thing was spread by a former Mossad chief, and Abbas has specifically denied it. From Haaretz He does not forget to ask that I write he is still awaiting an apology by former Mossad chief Shabtai Shavit, who said in a newspaper interview that Abbas belongs to the Bahai faith. Shavit explained at length in the interview that a Bahai cannot become a Palestinian leader. That false rumor has been lately disseminated by people with ill-will toward Abbas. He is angry at The Jerusalem Post for prominently reporting that posters claiming he is Bahai are appearing in Arab countries. "This is not the first time that people spread that malicious rumor. I sued a Jordanian newspaper for publishing it. Regrettably, the person I sued passed away before the court ruled unequivocally that the report was false. I am a believing Muslim, son of a family of believers, and committed to the religion's commandments."  nableezy  - 14:22, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 December 2017
Dear Wiki team

Just have read heading of the following page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

As the content is related to Mahmoud Abbas, thePresident of the State of Palestine and Palestinian National Authority, I would suggest to remove the introductory remark concerning the Arab Israeli footballer, see Mahmoud Abbas (footballer). Though I fancy football (smile).

Best Beatrice Rentke

}} 84.72.49.168 (talk) 12:10, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

What Abbas actually says about the Holocaust
The article is missing an important point on Abbas' analysis of the Holocaust. I have not seen that he ever contested the existence of the Holocaust. He says that the holocaust was a terrible crime against the jews that THE ZIONISTS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR - more than the Nazis, who he suggests were manipulated by the zionist jews. According to him, the zionists encouraged the Nazis to kill jews in order to force them to emigrate to Palestine - this is what his whole doctoral thesis is about. In the thesis he also says that the Zionists kidnapped and killed Eichmann because he was beginning to tell the truth about their involvement in the Holocaust. There are many sources on the Internet about Abbas thesis that report on this - both in English and in Arabic.

Please revise the Holocaust section accordingly.

Please add a link to Abbas thesis which available for download on http://president.ps/books.aspx (3rd Edition - Ramallah 2011). It's a Flash file so it doesn't have it's own URL.

It's a good idea to import it and run it through a translator. Google Translate is pretty good with Arabic-English translations nowadays. With all this discussion about what he actually said, it can be great to have the thesis available in English.

Trukledob (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2018
Change "President of the State of Palestine" to "President of the Palestinian Authority" 98.116.241.102 (talk) 22:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Please first conduct a concensus about the changes you wish to make. —   IVORK  Discuss 04:18, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2018
I ask somebody to please add the following text at the end of this section:--190.139.83.56 (talk) 08:47, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

In response to Donald Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Abbas called for "destroying Trump's house" at a meeting of the Palestinian Central Council in January 2018, while calling Israel a "European colonialist project that has nothing to do with Jews," in a statement that received condemnation across the political spectrum in Israel.
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: These sources are both Israeli papers. Adding in coverage from sources originating from the Palestinian Authority would be a better balance.   Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   10:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I think those are reliable sources, despite being Israeli newspapers. But if you insist, there are two non-Israeli papers that reported the same (modifications to my text are welcome, including Palestinian sources):

In response to Donald Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Abbas called for "destroying Trump's house" at a meeting of the Palestinian Central Council in January 2018, while calling Israel a "European colonialist project that has nothing to do with Jews," in a statement that received condemnation across the political spectrum in Israel.

I put the same text plus sources from The Independent and Washington Post. I don't think a speech by Abbas against President Trump should be ignored--181.92.194.138 (talk) 10:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Reply
The different sources you've given both give different reasons:

But your edit proposal only gives one of those reasons, the one given by the JP. Why was that reason chosen? Why was the one from the WP not chosen? Please advise.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   11:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Whatever! I said modifications are welcome, just put a text reporting his conflict with the Trump administration. How about: "After President Trump threatened to cut American aid to Palestinians, alleging they were no longer willing to negotiate a peace deal, Abbas....."--181.92.221.154 (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually it's a trick question. Because both reasons by themselves are biased. Here's how:
 * The reason where Abbas gets upset at Trump because Trump said Jerusalem belongs to Israel, well that seems like a reason that supporters of Israel might like to champion, because Abbas looks like a sore loser getting upset over Trump metaphorically "awarding" Jerusalem to his adversaries.
 * On the other hand, the reason where Abbas gets upset over Trump threatening to take money and resources away from his people seems like a reason that Palestinians would champion, because it's not unreasonable for a person to become upset when a third party threatens to starve their family to death. You can see how which reason is used holds the potential for framing the issues in a certain way, and which reason we choose to highlight over other reasons runs the risk of introducing a non-neutral POV.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   12:14, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This is getting tedious. Why don't you add something about the incident with Trump the way YOU prefer? You can't ignore such a diplomatic rift because there's no way to write it in a completely neutral manner. It was reported by the Washington Post, The Independent and all over Israeli media. If that's not sourced or important... I don't know what it is. Please, try to be more constructive. Instead of telling me why something is problematic, tell me the version you suggest, and I'll support it so you can add the information once and for all. Could you do that?--181.90.241.169 (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

In addition to 's sourcing and accuracy concerns, there is a problem with significance. Wikipedia already has a real problem with the practice where an article has an imbalanced focus on recent events. This is especially true of articles on politicians, where both supporters and opponents both rush to include every pronouncement, no matter how small, which they think supports their preferred portrayal of the subject. Doing so violates both the Neutral Point of View policy, which is a Core Content policy and the Policy on Biographies of Living Persons. It is extremely unclear from the sources given both what exactly was said and whether this remark in a private meeting has any long-term significance. It's not surprising nor does it appear to have any important policy or diplomatic implications. I would support leaving this out. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * But this section is about his relation with foreign leaders, both positive and negative. You can't tell me a visit he made to Canada several years ago or an alleged quote of Rice is more important than a diplomatic rift with the current US administration.--181.10.79.48 (talk) 05:50, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I can certainly tell you that for two reasons. Firstly, just because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't mean that we need to include whatever latest piece of information gets picked up by today's 24-hour news cycle and forgotten by next week's. Secondly, this quote/disagreement is hardly the cause of any rift with this administration.  Even before Trump was an announced presidential candidate he made his antipathy for Palestinian leaders and concerns crystal clear.  This quote contributes exactly nothing to either that diplomatic rift or to understanding the rift that existed on day one of Trump's administration. There is no sign from the current sources that it has any purpose in the article.  Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 06:03, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

President of what?
Surely the opening statement "Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the State of Palestine" is grossly propagandist? Firstly because there is no "state of Palestine," secondly because he was elected in 2005 as President of the PA, not "president of Palestine," and thirdly because since 2009 he has had no mandate to be president of anything. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 04:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As head of the PLO he also holds the office of President of the state declared in 1988 and recognized as a state by well over 100 other states.  nableezy  - 15:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "Palestine" is not a sovereign state and its institutions of government exist only by courtesy of the Olso Accords, which created the position of "President of the PA", not "President of Palestine." Abbas was elected to that position in 2005, and his term ended in 2009. He is therefore at best a de facto President of the PA. The article should state the facts, not propaganda. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 23:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Even Chairman of the PNA :) --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:45, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In 2012, the United Nations recognized the "State of Palestine" as non-member observer state. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Typo
There is a typo in the second paragraph of the introduction. "numorous" should be "numerous". Macoroni (talk) 07:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks! --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 March 2018
"Please change born from 26 March 1935 to 11 November 1935 because this is the real born date of President Mahmoud Abbas" Maisonib (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —   IVORK  Discuss 21:49, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Add category Damascus University Alumni
Very minor edit: add Category:Damascus University Alumni to the page. Currently he is a major alumnus of the university who is not recognised on the institution’s own alumni category page. FlyingFoxBoi (talk) 11:58, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * @FlyingFoxBoi: Done. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:35, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl Thank you! :D FlyingFoxBoi (talk) 15:12, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 February 2019
Under Section "Relations with Hamas" [year needed] can be replaced with the year "2006" Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/25/palestinian.talks/ AlwaysHereLearning (talk) 21:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done DannyS712 (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 July 2019
In the section "Relations with Israel", after the sentence "According to an International Crisis Group . . . strategic asset.'" and before the sentence "On June 23, 2016, Abbas . . . to be poisoned." I propose the following additional information be inserted: On September 22, 2014, President Abbas spoke at The Cooper Union in New York City on the subject of the future relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. It was his first general address in the United States in English. The speech was sponsored by the peace-advocacy group Churches for Middle East Peace, and their Executive Director at the time, Ambassador Warren Clark (ret.), introduced Abbas. Appealing to the crowd to “Rethink Palestine,” Abbas called for the creation of two-states living peacefully side-by-side, he renounced violence, he promised to create a state of Palestine that honored religious freedom and further that it would be “a model of women’s rights in the Arab world.”    Abbas received a standing ovation from the crowd. Abbas also said he would demand a timetable from the UN for Israel to withdraw from the land that would create a Palestinian state. Lawzilla (talk) 18:18, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 18:30, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Add reference to Abbas' September 22, 2014 speech at Cooper Union
Note: For a complete encyclopedic biographic accounting of Mahmoud Abbas' major life works and international impact, it is pertinent to include reference to Abbas' first general address in the United States in English. The following paragraph is proposed for insertion in the section "Relations with Israel", after the sentence "According to an International Crisis Group . . . strategic asset.'" and before the sentence "On June 23, 2016, Abbas . . . to be poisoned."

Proposed addition: On September 22, 2014, President Abbas spoke at The Cooper Union in New York City on the subject of the future relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. It was his first general address in the United States in English. The speech was sponsored by the peace-advocacy group Churches for Middle East Peace, and their Executive Director at the time, Ambassador Warren Clark (ret.), introduced Abbas. Appealing to the crowd to “Rethink Palestine,” Abbas called for the creation of two-states living peacefully side-by-side, he renounced violence, he promised to create a state of Palestine that honored religious freedom and further that it would be “a model of women’s rights in the Arab world.”    Abbas received a standing ovation from the crowd. Abbas also said he would demand a timetable from the UN for Israel to withdraw from the land that would create a Palestinian state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawzilla (talk • contribs) 14:53, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2019
There is currently no recognized state of palestine. Please change that information in this article.

Thank you. 108.30.161.242 (talk) 18:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No.  nableezy  - 19:02, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2019
There is currently no recognized state of palestine. Please change that information in this article to the State of Israel.

Thank you. 108.30.161.242 (talk) 18:04, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Also no.  nableezy  - 19:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)