Talk:Mai Kadra massacre/Archive 1

Contested deletion
This article should not be speedy deleted as lacking sufficient context to identify its subject, because it is under construction and I am adding detail as we speak.--Varavour (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Premature assignment of blame
On reading the ingress, I was led to understand that the TPLF committed the atrocity, but reading further, I understood that this claim is disputed and that government forces have also been blamed. As a casual reader who knows nothing of this conflict, reading that ingress in an instant seemed to color the parties of the conflict very starkly in a way that on further reading, seems dubious. The ingress ought to be edited to reflect how unclear the information regarding this event still is.

Sincerely, Sanna A, Sweden 159.242.234.119 (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because one party denied it doesn’t mean that they didn’t do it. There is enough evidence showing that they did do it for inclusion. Flalf Talk 22:42, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Unless I've misread them, the Thomson Reuters and Telegraph reports at most only have one witness with a discordant report for "Moya Khadra"; one case is for an unnamed town; some are for Humera. A separate article could be broken off for Humera massacre if the reports are serious enough. Boud (talk) 00:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I concur with the concerns of Sanna A. The ingress until minutes ago was misleading in the context of the full article. This article covers a highly-controversial event related to an ongoing conflict; as such, editors should be vigilant about maintaining objectivity and clarity regarding assertions made and the nature of their sources.108.48.44.199 (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC)


 * There's no dispute about the principles of WP:NPOV for the WP:LEAD, which it can't hurt to call the "ingress" for the sake of this discussion. Feel free to discuss specific edit disagreements here. Boud (talk) 19:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I added allegedly. Flalf Talk 21:59, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Most of the victims per Amnesty and EHRC; and Thomson Reuters
In the Amnesty International report I see:
 * immediate sentence following:
 * immediate sentence following:

EHRC preliminary report to media after a 6-day mission: So either "mostly Amharans" or "non-Tigrayans" seems to match the two sources.

The Thomson Reuters report has one witness interviewed by a journalist who said that Tigrayans were the victims:

Based on the depth of information in the various reports, I think that the Thomson Reuters refugee interviewee only counts as an "alternative" point of view, and does not override the Amnesty and EHRC reports concerning "most" of the victims, given the present sources that we have.

Boud (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The EHRC preliminary report posted on GAFAMdocs (the EHRC presumably does not know that it should manage its own webpage independently) gives a lot more depth than the newspaper report. Boud (talk) 22:51, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I would note that every indication suggests that the events described in the Reuters report and the Telegraph are also claimed to have taken place in Mai Kadra as opposed to another towns. In particular, the reference to a "town near Humera" should be clearly taken to mean Mai Kadra. Hence, the separation between events in Mai Kadra and "events in the region" would appear to be fallacious. I will add some things from reports from CNN and AFP which provide independent verification. As for the website I would not be so hard on the EHRC; they are grossly underfunded and hosting a reliable website in Ethiopia is a real pain. --Varavour (talk) 00:26, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think the separation between Mai Kadra and Humera is misleading, then giving specific quotes here would probably be useful, especially given what has been verging on edit wars here, especially by IPs. I'm not saying that you shouldn't edit the article, but details here may help shortcut edit wars, and especially help editors aiming at NPOV (hopefully most, though a few need some time to learn). If federal forces went on a "vengeance" rampage on the way to and in Humera, then that info will hopefully be collected and published.
 * On the EHRC and a website: it's not a question of funding and hosting a website necessarily locally; it's a question of knowledge: there are plenty of independent, well-reputed alternatives to GAFAM available, which would certainly be better than googledocs. Boud (talk) 00:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Please note that the Amnesty International article states that the perpetrators could not be independently verified. They are citing Amhara Government Media Agency and phone calls with people accompanied government forces, whilst the Tigrayan media and refugees say the exact opposite . Contact with the Tigray region is completely cut off, and the Ethiopian Government has refused to allow independent investigations. They have only allowed the Government headed EHRC to investigate so government backed reports should be taken with caution as they are unlikely to implicate the government themselves. A.y.187 (talk) 13:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I see nothing in the Amnesty report about telephone calls. It's true that face-to-face interviews are more reliable than online (or only audio, e.g. telephone) interviews, but this is not a major argument against the reliability of the investigation. More importantly, the Amnesty report does not say that it is only citing Amhara Government Media Agency; it quite clearly talks about several interviews and gives a fair amount of details of its investigation. There are no particular reasons to expect Amnesty to be biased to one side or another here.
 * The FT article is new and reports info from a second refugee, that's significant.
 * Another point which is significant in the Amnesty report is the witnesses who were available for interviews: . People who were attacked by the ENDF (= EDF) or ENDF-associated forces (Amhara militias) would probably be afraid to provide food to the ENDF; they would be more likely to be in hiding or have fled to Sudan.
 * The degree of independence of the EHRC from the government is an important point - please help develop the article Ethiopian Human Rights Commission - currently it says that a critic of the EHRC, Bekele, was appointed director in Feb 2019, so it appears that the EHRC is not as dependent on the federal government as it used to be. But the more sourced information we have, the better. Boud (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.252.171 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems that most of the international media don't have deeper knowledge what was happened and what was going on in the country. To understand this and figure out the right information, it is critical to understand the situation from the complexity perspective of the country and even it is important to have at least 30 years back history of the country. Unfortunately, most of the international media become victims (knowingly and/or unknowingly) of the strategic and systematic propaganda of the TPLF and its fabricated information. So it is important to differentiate between the fact and fake news (false information). Of course I have to acknowledge BBC that figured out the fake news of TPLF (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-54985545). The amnesty international and the independent Ethiopian human right commission have investigated the situation from the place and provided documents (reports) to the world, so I think, it is better to consider those information as source and to get the fact what happened in Mai Kadra. One thing that the international media, primarily Reuter and NYT, failed to investigate is that the TPLF had systematically deployed its supporters to Sudan and some of the so called "Samri" youth group who conducted this barbaric massacre had fled to Sudan, after the defeat of the TPLF loyal force by the Ethiopian army. These groups joined refuges camp in Sudan and disseminated false information to the international media and that is why I said above, it is critical to have a deeper knowledge of the situation, historical perspective and strategic agenda of TPLF. In fact there are also some clues that the WHO general, member of the TPLF,  tried to pressure the Ethiopian government  although he denied it (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/11/19/ethiopia-who-tedros-criminal-military-tigray/) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55001328.

Sources now suggest parallel massacres
This is just a reminder that this en.Wikipedia article cannot get closer to the truth than the reliable sources. The sources we have do not directly contradict each other. If all the witnesses have spoken truthfully and been accurately quoted/summarised by Amnesty, EHRC, Reuters, and the FT, then there have been successive, or partly simultaneous, massacres in Mai Kadra by Samri and the Amhara militias. (Sounds like the UN Security Council will need to get the International Criminal Court (ICC) to investigate, given that Ethiopia is not party to the Rome Statute of the ICC.) Boud (talk) 17:09, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I started the article Humera massacre, since the number of sources seems strong enough.

For anyone thinking of an overview article, the sources we have now point to: I don't see any point creating Humera Airport massacre with only one source that has very little information (one human body per grave? forensic analysis to estimate dates of deaths? independent human rights investigation team/prosecutors' team invited to investigate?). A probably uncontroversial title for an overview article could be Human rights violations during the Tigray conflict. This could have more details of the cases at unidentified locations and dates. Boud (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Humera Airport massacre - 70 victims - date could be sometime before 10 November when the ENDF arrived; or could be by the ENDF/Amharans after they arrived and before 29 November when the one source (Ethiopian Broadcasting Corporation, repeated in multiple media) reported it, attributed to TPLF by anonymous military person;
 * Mai Kadra massacre - 700 or more victims - 9-10 November - Amnesty + EHRC say by Samri (Tigrayans) against Amharans; two refugees say by Amharans against Tigrayans;
 * Humera massacre - 20 or more Tigrayan victims - has to be sometime before/on or around 12 November, the day when the ENDF officially took over Humera; three Western mainstream media sources interviewing refugees;
 * ethnic murders taking place "on the road" - dates, locations unknown, interviews with refugess in Western mainstream media.

Amnesty International 12 Dec 2020 (ref name="AP_Shadowy_massacre", currently ref [12], ): Tuesday = 8 December. So that makes: Humera Airport massacre (if we get enough sources); Mai Kadra massacre; Humera massacre; Dansha massacre (if we get enough sources); Mekelle massacre (if we get enough sources); "on-the-road" massacres. AFP visited Dansha, which was one of the locations of the 4 November Northern Command attacks, and didn't report any testimonies of killings of civilians, it only reported on the 4 November lethal battle between soldiers/militias and an apparently calm aftermath. AFP doesn't seem to have interviewed Tigrayans in Dansha - they might have fled or might have felt at risk giving interviews. Boud (talk) 23:29, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The incident at Mai Kadra with 600 victims seems to dwarf all the later incidents. May I ask what is your motivation for wanting so badly a separate special dedicated article for every possible alleged incident of ten or  twenty people dying in wartime, in this particular war? And there are at least three other conflicts going on now in the world. KZebegna (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you missed the words . This is an encyclopedia.
 * Check out List of massacres in Syria for a precedent. I count about 22 individual pages of massacres there with the median number of victims per massacre article being somewhere around 50 or so, and most in the 20-200 range. There are about 8 massacres listed without dedicated Wikipedia pages.
 * Another example: List of massacres in France: about 24 massacres; 23 have individual articles, only 1 (the most recent) does not. The number of victims per massacre has a median of something like 5 to 7. There's a high-number tail with a few massacres of over 100.
 * Is there any reason why massacres in Ethiopia should be less covered in en.Wikipedia than massacres in France? Are massacres of Ethiopians less notable than those of French people? Are massacres of Syrians less notable than massacres of French people?
 * Regarding "wartime": militarily unjustified killings of civilians have been illegal since nearly a century ago; these are not part of legally permissible military actions.
 * Regarding other conflicts: you are welcome to edit articles for those other conflicts. Boud (talk) 00:41, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No they aren't - I have to say you made your point quite well. I didn't realize so many smaller events in Syria and France were so listed, but now that you've shown me that  they are, carry on with what you have been doing by all means! KZebegna (talk) 00:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Issues raised by 89.247.252.171
Here I put quotes with tquote and respond.
 * That's quite possible. But we can only use information based on external sources.
 * Again that's possible, but we should not be Manichean. International mainstream media may partly be duped, but they do do some forms of fact-checking themselves and do tend to word their reports carefully.
 * Ideally, yes. So the question is how? Do we only choose the mainstream reports with which we agree personally?
 * Well yes, we do use BBC and Amnesty International sources.
 * That's quite possible. But it's also possible that Reuters and FT (in this case) were aware of the likelikhood of Samri refugees being responsible for the Mai Kadra massacre and lying; and that the news agencies' reporters did their best to judge this by all the usual ways that journalists try to judge the truth.
 * For this particular article, we already have a subsection mentioning the claim that refugees might be people responsible for war crimes who have fled and pretended to be victims. But we cannot use that information to ignore the reports by Reuters and FT. The reader of this Wikipedia article has to judge for him/herself which information to believe based on the reports. We give as much detail as we can. Generally, the more information is provided, the easier it is to detect (or find hints of) falsifications.
 * Wikipedia articles can only give information based on sources. If you can find sources that show that the particular Reuters and FT articles that we currently have are based on refugees who lied, then please provide that source. For a source (newspaper) that is normally accepted as "reliable", it would be unlikely that we remove the source; instead, we add the other sources that have counterclaims.
 * Well yes, we do use BBC and Amnesty International sources.
 * That's quite possible. But it's also possible that Reuters and FT (in this case) were aware of the likelikhood of Samri refugees being responsible for the Mai Kadra massacre and lying; and that the news agencies' reporters did their best to judge this by all the usual ways that journalists try to judge the truth.
 * For this particular article, we already have a subsection mentioning the claim that refugees might be people responsible for war crimes who have fled and pretended to be victims. But we cannot use that information to ignore the reports by Reuters and FT. The reader of this Wikipedia article has to judge for him/herself which information to believe based on the reports. We give as much detail as we can. Generally, the more information is provided, the easier it is to detect (or find hints of) falsifications.
 * Wikipedia articles can only give information based on sources. If you can find sources that show that the particular Reuters and FT articles that we currently have are based on refugees who lied, then please provide that source. For a source (newspaper) that is normally accepted as "reliable", it would be unlikely that we remove the source; instead, we add the other sources that have counterclaims.
 * For this particular article, we already have a subsection mentioning the claim that refugees might be people responsible for war crimes who have fled and pretended to be victims. But we cannot use that information to ignore the reports by Reuters and FT. The reader of this Wikipedia article has to judge for him/herself which information to believe based on the reports. We give as much detail as we can. Generally, the more information is provided, the easier it is to detect (or find hints of) falsifications.
 * Wikipedia articles can only give information based on sources. If you can find sources that show that the particular Reuters and FT articles that we currently have are based on refugees who lied, then please provide that source. For a source (newspaper) that is normally accepted as "reliable", it would be unlikely that we remove the source; instead, we add the other sources that have counterclaims.
 * Wikipedia articles can only give information based on sources. If you can find sources that show that the particular Reuters and FT articles that we currently have are based on refugees who lied, then please provide that source. For a source (newspaper) that is normally accepted as "reliable", it would be unlikely that we remove the source; instead, we add the other sources that have counterclaims.

In any case, if you make an edit and someone reverts it, then that's a good moment to discuss the specific edit here on the talk page and search for consensus. If you want to make an edit that removes information sourced to Thomson Reuters (name="Reuters_11_12_2") or the Financial Times (name="ft_9_12"), then please propose that here, and then we can see if there is consensus to remove the information on the grounds that Reuters and FT might have been fooled by the TPLF. I'm going to fix one error that I see: the "Reuters_11_12_2" refugee only refers to Amharan militias, not to the ENDF. This correction is based on matching the sources to our Wikipedia article, without interpretations related to TPLF propaganda. Boud (talk) 13:33, 10 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Re "we should not be Manichean" - I agree wholeheartedly that "Manichean" is what we should not be, and in fact exactly what we should always reject, especially as an encyclopedia - but what does that word mean to you? Could you please clarify the context of saying that here? KZebegna (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, in this context, the Manichean point of view seems to be "federal government = good + honest; TPLF and all ethnic Tigrayans = bad + lying" and to associate all formal and informal armed forces and witness statements strictly within one of these two categories. If by "context" you mean the editorial context, then see, , or , which have in their edit summaries: Removing the word "Any" and adding a qualifier such as "may" or "might" would have made the statement a lot less Manichean. Boud (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Lol, OK, thanks for explaining. Yes, I agree with that. 'Manichean' can mean so many generally unsavory or sinister things with different people, as they were actually a crypto sect with secretive rituals! KZebegna (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Edits of IP 37.116.65.226
IP user 37.116.65.226 made several recent edits such as, with the edit description "the reference articles of Reuters and the financial times do not state the involvement of the Ethiopian Federal army or the Amhara Militia to the massacre". Here are quotes from the sources: Boud (talk) 01:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Reuters
 * Financial Times
 * FT:

WP:NPOV complaints in the whole article, including LEAD
Hello everyone, this page has many WP:NPOV issue, against Tigrayans and Tigray People's Liberation Front (TPLF).


 * Let us start from the first sentence in the LEAD:- It is not only Thomson Reuters and the Financial Times that attritubed responsibility to the Amhara militias, it is all the below listed media outlets' articles. They include CNN, The Guardian, Yahoo! News, BBC, The Daily Telegraph, The New York Times, NBC News, Sky News, Associated Press (AP), Al Jazeera, The Sydney Morning Herald and even more. Listed are the exact reference from these outlets, that attribute responsibility to the Amhara militias (and/or other Abiy Ahmed ailed forces). Let us not try to promote the other side and discredit the Tigrayans victims and TPLF.
 * https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/02/tigray-war-refugees-ethiopia-sudan
 * https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/escape-massacre-ethiopians-recall-tigray-092740037.html
 * https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/world/africa/ethiopia-tigray-sudan.html
 * https://www.nbcnews.com/video/refugees-from-ethiopia-mass-in-sudan-border-from-conflict-in-tigray-96440901567
 * https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethiopia-conflict-sudan-bombings-idUKKBN27T1OL
 * https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172x2z2d5prcjz
 * https://us.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/12/07/ethiopia-tigray-tensions-refugees-sudan-eritrea-horn-of-africa-elbagir-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn
 * https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/ethiopia-may-be-on-the-edge-of-genocide-20201122-p56gum.html
 * https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28A1M7
 * The Telegraph’s official YouTube channel report:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCfsQWqIo4
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/14/fleeing-war-ethiopians-recount-horror-of-tigray-violence


 * Furthermore, media outlasts like Associated Press (AP) have reported that Amnesty International (Amnesty) has changed its position; that is, even Amnesty is now saying that both Tigrayan ethnic and Amhara ethnic were possibly targeted. This is the exact quote from the below more recent AP article link:- 
 * https://apnews.com/article/sudan-ethiopia-massacres-d16a089f8dcb0511172b5662b9244f78

Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 07:40, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 07:58, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The communication blackout that is withholding from international journalists from documenting the Tigrayan victims stories in Tigray is not mentioned well . (I'm talking about the internet, phone, mobile, electricity that has been disconnected to Tigray region during this war. Even running water has been disconnected.) We know Abiy Ahmed's government cuts communication whenever. According to Human Rights Watch and NetBlocks, politically motivated Internet shutdowns have intensified in severity and duration under the leadership of Abiy Ahmed despite the country's rapid digitalization and reliance on cellular internet connectivity in recent years. In 2020, Internet shutdowns by the Ethiopian government have been described as "frequently deployed". Access Now said in a statement that shutdowns have become a "go-to tool for authorities to muzzle unrest and activism." His government will the cut internet as and when, "it's neither water nor air" have said Abiy.


 * There is a misleading sentence that says . Ethiopian Human Rights Commission, is known to be NOT an "independent agency", and there is no reference added anywhere in Wikipedia that says it is an "independent agency". In fact, it is more know to hide situations and mislead the public by echoing the Ethiopian government's position. Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Missing talk-reflist added by Boud Boud (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources for perpetrators or victims of Mai Kadra massacre

 * No, we do not start with modifying the lead. First we update the body of the article. If it then makes sense to update the lead, then that can follow. If you disagree with any of the analysis below, please here in this talk page give the specific quotes to support your claims.
 * You stated
 * 1. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/02/tigray-war-refugees-ethiopia-sudan
 * I do not see "Mai Khadra" at all in this article. This article does not support your claim.
 * 2. https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/escape-massacre-ethiopians-recall-tigray-092740037.html
 * This is a poor source, at "sports.yahoo.com"; I found a better version, where AFP is attributed. Witness Messah Geidi attributes the massacre to "the army". We can quote that, but it's not clear which particular security forces s/he is referring to. I've done this. ✅
 * 3. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/world/africa/ethiopia-tigray-sudan.html
 * The attribution of the massacre is to "the liberation front", meaning the Tigray People's Liberation Front.
 * 4. https://www.nbcnews.com/video/refugees-from-ethiopia-mass-in-sudan-border-from-conflict-in-tigray-96440901567
 * This appears to point to a video. It would be best if you provided a transcript (quote) if you wished to consider this as a source. Keep in mind that an archive of the video must exist: WP:PUBLISHED "Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist."
 * 5. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethiopia-conflict-sudan-bombings-idUKKBN27T1OL
 * This is the Thomson Reuters source that is already used in the article.
 * 6. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172x2z2d5prcjz
 * This appears to point to an audio file. Same situation as for the video.
 * 7. https://us.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/12/07/ethiopia-tigray-tensions-refugees-sudan-eritrea-horn-of-africa-elbagir-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn
 * This appears to point to a video. Again the same situation as above.
 * 8. https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/ethiopia-may-be-on-the-edge-of-genocide-20201122-p56gum.html
 * This article does not support your claim.
 * 9. https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28A1M7
 * I do not see "Mai Khadra" at all in this article. This article does not support your claim.
 * 10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCfsQWqIo4
 * Again, a youtube video. In principle might be usable, but see above.
 * 11. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/14/fleeing-war-ethiopians-recount-horror-of-tigray-violence
 * ... ...  There is no information here attributing the massacre to the ENDF or Amharan militias.
 * So out of the 11 sources that you listed:
 * 5 fail to support your claim: 1, 3, 8, 9, 11
 * 1 source weakly supports your claim: 2 but only states "the army"; this is
 * 4 video/audio that require an archive (not provided) and would best need a transcript: 4, 6, 7, 10
 * 1 redundant with existing source(s): 5

There is no need to use bold to shout in making a point. The AP article citing Amnesty does indeed state. We could include that in the body of the article, but certainly not the lead, because it's a weak claim. Using bold does not make the claim any stronger. Boud (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC) minor fix (numbering) Boud (talk) 11:24, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Internet communications blockade
It seems to me valid to briefly mention this in context in this article, although if it's not connected directly to Mai Kadra, anything more than a brief mention risks getting into WP:SYNTH. you might wish to comment on this. Boud (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Ideally there will be a source that has already made some kind of point about communications disruption in relation to this topic. In my own observation fwiw, when the TPLF was in power they would shut down communications several times, especially toward the end, and we could actually see for ourselves all internet traffic from Ethiopia drop down to zero. We haven't seen anything like that since Abiy's government.  Maybe because this time they had only cut one region's traffic and not the whole country, but reports are that now communications have been reestablished for Tigray, meaning they were shut down for about a month. KZebegna (talk) 11:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

EHRC independence
You are correct that this article is not the place to summarise whether or not the EHRC is genuinely independent. ✅ Boud (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Replay to "Sources for perpetrators or victims of Mai Kadra massacre"
, you seem to have misunderstood my points for the listed article. My first and main line was “Hello everyone, this page has many WP:NPOV issue, against Tigrayans and Tigray People's Liberation Front (TPLF).” So if they say the “the army” then I have made my point with the references. “The army”, the Amhara paramilitary, the Fano Amhara militias, president Essays Afewerki Eritrean’s forces are all on one side (allied with Abiy Ahmed), against people of Tigray and TPLF. However, my references many times also explicitly say Fano and Amhara militias. And even if “the army” is doing it, the ideology comes from the Amhara imperialists. That is why I spontaneously said the Fano Amhara militias, but they are all on the same side. And my WP:NPOV point is NOT that which exactly (from the federal army, the Amhara paramilitary, the Fano Amhara militias, president Essays Afewerki Eritrean’s forces) are committing the killing & massacres. My WP:NPOV point is that it is being committed by one (or all) of Abiy Ahmed allied forces, but the other side (Tigrayans and TPLF) are being blamed.


 * I added this as bold since it is very important to my WP:NPOV claim, thought I listed it second before. It does not need to be included as bold in the article, but it has to be included. I write again and sorry to use bold, but I sometimes use it to pin-point my main points:- Furthermore, media outlasts like Associated Press (AP) have reported that Amnesty International (Amnesty) has changed its position; that is, even Amnesty is now saying that both Tigrayan ethnic and Amhara ethnic were possibly targeted. This is the exact quote from the below more recent AP article link:- 
 * https://apnews.com/article/sudan-ethiopia-massacres-d16a089f8dcb0511172b5662b9244f78

'''Here I list what I meant by these reference support my WP:NPOV against Tigrayans and TPLF claim. .'''
 * 1 https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/02/tigray-war-refugees-ethiopia-sudan
 * This says


 * 2 https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/escape-massacre-ethiopians-recall-tigray-092740037.html
 * This says


 * 3 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/world/africa/ethiopia-tigray-sudan.html
 * This says


 * 4 https://www.nbcnews.com/video/refugees-from-ethiopia-mass-in-sudan-border-from-conflict-in-tigray-96440901567
 * This is even a very spacial video, it shows a Tigrayan ethnic people who are surviving witnesses & currently refugees in Sudan, with knife wounds expressing the horrors they experienced. please make it archived or whatever the process is to be able to reference it. You know the process better.


 * 5 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethiopia-conflict-sudan-bombings-idUKKBN27T1OL
 * This says


 * 6 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172x2z2d5prcjz
 * A BBC-News audio interview with a medical doctor who fled to Sudan from western Tigray due to the civil war. He describes the massacres & atrocities being committed by Abiy Ahmed allied forces (the FANO Amhara ethnic militias). Again, please have it archived.


 * 7 https://us.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/12/07/ethiopia-tigray-tensions-refugees-sudan-eritrea-horn-of-africa-elbagir-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn::::
 * This CNN video, shows the stories of several Tigrayan refugees in Sudan, how they were being massacred by Abiy Ahmed allied forces (including being beaten by president Isaias Afwerki's forces)


 * 8 https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/ethiopia-may-be-on-the-edge-of-genocide-20201122-p56gum.html
 * This says


 * 9 https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28A1M7
 * This says


 * 10 The Telegraph’s official YouTube channel report about Mai Kadra massacre witnesses:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCfsQWqIo4
 * Please someone who knows how to do this, have this video archived. It a reporting by an independent international journalist telling that the ethnic Amhara militias and government forces massacre Tigrayans with machete. you are a human-being, who can open and see this only 2 minutes video, don't you think it supports my claim that mainly ethnic Amhara militias are responsible for the massacres in Mai-Kadra and other places in Tigray?


 * 11 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/14/fleeing-war-ethiopians-recount-horror-of-tigray-violence
 * This says By the way, Gidey Asafa is a typical Tigrayan name. And in the video on the same article it says 


 * 12 This reference I didn’t even list before:- https://www.africanews.com/2020/11/25/amnesty-international-releases-findings-on-mai-kadra-massacre/
 * This says At one part this article says the Amnesty International representative (researcher) sent to Mai-kadra was Fisseha Tekle. Perhaps we should create a Wikipedia page for him, to give the readers a complete picture, as he may have personal bias (due to his Amhara ethnicity).  Even though not said in this article, the  Amnesty International representative that was sent to Mai-kadra is an Amhara ethnic himself. Furthermore, the  preliminary investigation and report only includes interview with the people that where in Mai-Kandra when it was under the Fano & the Amhara paramilitary's control (or with the people who fled to Amhara region), so they are most likely all Amhara. But most of the real victims (the Tigrayans) appear to be dead or have fled to Sudan from the Amhara paramilitary, from the federal army and from the Amhara Fano militias. Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 14:26, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * There is no point repeating a vague general claim about anti-TPLF bias that you cannot support from the sources. This is an article mainly about the Mai Kadra massacre, not about the killings during the Tigray conflict in other locations (even though are some sections about other similar events). You listed 11 references, of which only 1 was easily verifiable to give a weak extra support for the claim that "the army" was responsible for the massacre. (And no, I am not going to do your work for you in innovating by discovering how to archive videos and audio files.)


 * This article is already NPOV-ed. If you read the talk page properly, you'll see that some editors wished to remove all reports claiming Amharan responsibility for the massacre in Mai Kadra. This article already has the two versions of the story clearly indicated. You cannot expect this article to blame the ENDF and Amharan militias for the Mai Kadra massacre in ways that are not supported by the sources.


 * When I asked for quotes, I did not mean that you should bombard this page with a huge amount of quotes that are unrelated to the point you wish to make. Reports that are not about events in Mai Kadra are irrelevant to the main body of this article. One good quote that is logically coherent in terms of supporting a claim based on the source would have been enough. Boud (talk) 21:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * 13 https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjpzqw/hes-planning-to-exterminate-us-all-ethiopians-speak-of-ethnic-massacres
 * This says


 * 14 https://apnews.com/article/eritrea-sudan-middle-east-ethiopia-only-on-ap-a4cba907c516401df0a0b3c7eb095405
 * This says

The continued justification for the NPOV tag can be found below under:- Talk:Mai Kadra massacre Loves Woolf1882 (talk) 00:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)