Talk:Mair caste

Mair Rajputs
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This article is a stub, please help "Expanding" it, from references provided, thankyou
Atulsnischal 11:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have interconnected this "Mair Rajputs"/"Mair Rajput" page to other Rajput pages on Wikipedia and included External Links and References that one could refer to while writing this page on Wikipedia. All are welcome to research and write this article in detail, Thanks

Atulsnischal 21:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Expand or Delete
The article contains one line: Mair Rajputs are not only from Punjab. They are basically from maiwar region of Rajasthan. If no one can expand to that - I think the article should be deleted! -- Ozzykhan 21:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Help Expand this Article on "Mair Rajputs" from links and references provided

 * Hi included a seperate page on Mair Rajputs, I have provided all references and external links, when you get time read the references and help expand the "Mair Rajput" page. Thankyou


 * I have interconnected the Mair Rajput page to many related categories and pages on Wikipedia


 * I have a request, please refer to External links and write the Mair Rajput page in as much detail as possible in your own words, so that is is copywrite free, include all the families and gotras mentioned too for all of us to see, Thankyou

Thanks

Atulsnischal 08:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Who are "Soni"???
If anyone knows any details and any published works that can help answering this question (Who are "Soni"???) please leave a detailed answer here as well create seperate page for them if they are not the same as "Mair Rajputs", thankyou'

Name: Ajay R N Nandha, Email Id: ajn_11@hotmail.com Address: England UK Date of Message // Message

Hi im trying to trace my family history and know already that we are Bhati Rajputs who have settled in the village Modhwada near Porbandar. Our community (who were originally Rajputs) claim that during bad times a Parmar prayed to Hingraj Mataji for help. She is said to have supplied him with knowledge and tools of Jewelers and this has become our communities occupation since. I also know that the community split into three groups and settled down in Four separate areas of Gujrat - Girnar (hence Girnara soni)this is me, Patan (hence Patani soni), Kuchh (hence Kuchhi soni) and Saurashtra/Kathiyavad (hence Parajiya Soni). As the community has changed its occupation we are not regarded as Rajputs - fair enough. Im happy to be a Soni. However i would like to find out about who my ancestors were and where they came from. My search has so far led me to here. I was wondering if someone could provide me with references to further reading and/or web sites so that i can find out more in detail about my ancestry and how we came to settle in Gujarat. Thank you for your time in reading this msg. A. Nandha (By the way as you can see my surname has changed, i know it was not so long ago but i don't know why it has changed)

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:U6bOsTs-UvUJ:www.rajputsamaj.net/joinrajputsamaj/feedbackview.asp%3Fcurrpage%3D172+soni+rajputs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2

Found this Question at the above website

Atulsnischal 06:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Welcome You To Swarnkar / Mair Kshatriya / Verma / Sonar Samaj's own Web Site - "www.soniji.net"

-added above website to Mair Rajput article.

Atulsnischal 07:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

soni/mair rajputs
Could someone edit this (he meant the "Rajput") article to include maid/soni rajputs of punjab!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alokbagga (talk • contribs)

If you are sure you should edit yourself. Holy   +    Warrior  13:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr Bagga do you not mean "Mair Rajputs" of Punjab

Atulsnischal 08:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

As per the External Link: http://mairrajputs.tripod.com/notable.html


 * Bagga: "The Bagga claim descent from Rao Chhabila of Delhi whose complexion was bagga, which means white in Punjabi whence this name" (Rose 440). There was also a Bagga chief in northern Punjab. His name was Budh Singh Bagga and he is described by Saggar. "He was the son of Sardar Amar Singh Bagga and was of the Kanhaya Misl. He inherited the family estates in 1795. He held Majitha, Sukalgarh, Bhagowal and other territories in Amritsar and Gurdaspur districts" (Saggar 61). He fought against Maharaja Ranjit Singh in 1809 after failing to meet the latter's demands. Ranjit Singh won and confiscated all of Bagga's estates including the three districts of Behrampur, Dharamkot, and Sukalgarh. He left to Budh Singh Bagga an estate at Dharamkot which Bagga held until his death in 1846.

Interesting, I am also a Mair rajput, please help expand the "Mair Rajputs" page.

Thanks Atul Singh Nischal

Atulsnischal 07:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTE Found above comment from Mr Bagga from the "Rajput" discussion/talk page

Atulsnischal 07:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

POV, References, citataion, non-specific
Hello User:Atulsnischal. I see you are doing most of the edits and expansion of this article. I just have a few concerns that I would like to address to make this a better article.

You have added many references and external links to the page, but no in-text citations which makes it very hard to verify some of the claims you have made. I have marked these out in the article as Fact. Please add the appropriate CREDIBLE sources. You can not use unpublished, original research on Wikipedia as you have pointed out in the References section: "'This article on 'Mair Rajputs' on Wikipedia has originally been written by Atul Singh Nischal (Bhatti / Bhati), I am a Mair Rajput, I have also referred to my own questioning of elders in our family of Nischal, Shinh, Sur and Luddhar / Luthra'"

Furthermore, I rewrote this section due to it non-neutral point of view: "'With the partition of India in 1947 into India and Pakistan the Indian state of Punjab was also split in two. The Mair Rajputs living in the portion of Punjab that was given to the newly created Muslim country of Pakistan had to leave by force to save themselves from communal slaughters and forceful conversion to Islam, many of them fled their ancestral homeland now in Pakistan in a complete destitute state and had to start life afresh in India. All their ancestral land, property and wealth was left behind in Pakistan. Life was tough for them at the beginning after partition; they had to live in a destitute state in refugee camps in India before they were allotted specially constructed houses in the Refugee colonies by the government of India. Many of them settled in Delhi and other parts of India after partition.'"

Also, there is a large number of insiginifact External Links, please see the Wikipedia policy here: External links


 * To learn how to cite your sources properly, please see:
 * Citing sources


 * To verify, see:
 * Verifiability

8Regarding Original Research, see:
 * No original research

Overall, please reveiew Manual of Style, and use a professional tone expected from an encyclopedia.

Thanks - - Ozzykhan 20:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference provided for concerning Paragraph, thanks
With the partition of India in 1947 into India and Pakistan the Indian state of Punjab was also split in two. Hindus and Sikhs including Mair Rajputs living in the portion of Punjab that was given to the newly created Muslim country of Pakistan had to leave by force to save themselves from communal slaughters and forceful conversion to Islam, many of them fled their ancestral homeland now in Pakistan in a complete destitute state and had to start life afresh in India. All their ancestral land, property and wealth was left behind in Pakistan. The following book gives a detailed account of the atrocities commited against Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab during partition of India in 1947:
 * Online 1 Online 2 Online 3

Please Note: Included are three online sources above from where a free online copy of the above book can be read for reference.

209.197.160.69 01:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Copying from other sites
Also, please refrain from copying discussions from other websites onto this page. - Ozzykhan 20:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Included in the Reference list

 * Online 1 Online 2 Online 3

Atulsnischal 11:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Mair Rajputs are a "conglomeration" of branches of different Rajput tribes
Mair Rajputs The Mair Rajputs are a tribe, as it is a community related by blood. That does not mean that all Mair Rajputs are related to one another. Instead, since marriages form bonds of blood, the Mair Rajputs traditionally marry only other Mair Rajputs. The caste of the Mair Rajputs eventually has come to be goldsmiths, because that is currently their predominant occupation. Here is a possible method of classification that should reduce some confusion. The asli kaum or original community of the Mairs is the Rajput community. The Mairs, as far as I can tell, are a conglomeration of branches of different Rajput tribes. The Mair Rajputs collectively form a jaath, or tribe. The "traditional" trade or occupation of the Mairs is goldsmithing. The gothras, or families, are the sections that comprise the Mair Rajput tribe.

Source: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:uOb-UazYIpUJ:www.search.com/reference/History_of_Rajputs+Mair+Kshatriya&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=32

Atulsnischal 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

NEWS: Mair Rajput Mahasangh
ELECTED: The following have been elected office-bearers of the Bilaspur Mair Rajput Sabha under the chairmanship of Mr Narinder Singh Jaura, convener (North India), Mair Rajput Mahasangh: president — Mr Gopal Dass Verma; senior vice-president — Mr Prem Lal Kanda; vice-presidents — Mr Mangat Ram Verma, Mr Naresh Kanda and Dr Rajesh Verma; general secretary — Mr Parveen Verma; joint secretaries — Mr Lalit Kanda and Mr Surinder Kanda; finance secretary — Mr Ajay Verma; auditors — Mr Rajender Verma and Mr Mitterpal Verma; press secretaries — Mr Surinderpal Verma and Mr Subhash Chand Kanda; and advisers — Mr Sukhdev Sehdev, Mr Rakesh Verma, Mr Ram Gopal Kanda and Mr Rajesh Kanda. OFFICE-BEARERS: The following have been elected office-bearers of the local Property Consultants Association: chairman — Mr Mahavir Sharma; president— Mr Tirlok Singh; and general secretary — Mr Sanjeev Kumar....

Source: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:GOe1PMY10VkJ:www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060502/region.htm+Mair+Rajput+Mahasangh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

Atulsnischal 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

NEWS: Mair Rajput Sabha
Elections of Mair Rajput held: The following have been elected office-bearers of the Mair Rajput Sabha: Chairman — Mr Devi Dyal Varma; Deputy Chairman — Mr Dharam Pal Bhama; President — Mr Banke Bihari Karwal; Secretary — Mr Prem Sagar Karwal; Press Secretary — Mr Brij Bihari Karwal; Cashier — Mr Gian Chand Kumprewale; and Vice-Presidents — Mr Mohan Singh Rajpoot and Mr Pawan Kumar Dhelpur.

Source: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000208/region.htm

Atulsnischal 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Synonyms of Mair Rajput as seen on some Hindu Matrimonial Websites
MAIR RAJPUT (SWARNKAR), Swarnkar (mair rajput), Maid Rajput (Swarankar), Swarnkar (maid rajput)

Atulsnischal 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

On Hindu Matrimonial WebSites "Mair Rajputs" are found sometimes listed as:
On Hindu Matrimonial WebSites "Mair Rajputs" are found sometimes listed as:

Sonar, sunar, soni, swarnkar, mair rajput, MAIR KSHTRIYA, MAIR RAJPUT (SWARNKAR), Swarnkar (mair rajput), Maid Rajput (Swarankar), Swarnkar (maid rajput), sunar-maid rajput, gold smith

Atulsnischal 09:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone added "DASONDHI / DASONDI (DANSONDH)" in the see also list of "Mair Rajputs of Punjab"
If anyone has info on "DASONDHI / DASONDI (DANSONDH)" and why they should be added in Mair Rajputs, please add information and full details here, before addint to the main article on "Mair Rajputs of Punjab".

Thankyou

209.197.167.36 21:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hindu Matrimonial Websites on the Internet, which sometimes have special Punjabi, Rajput & Punjabi Rajput Sections:
Please list here all concerned websites:


 * Punjabi Rajput Matrimonial Site at PunjabiMatrimony.com usually has a good representation of the "Mair Rajput" community

Atulsnischal 17:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Mair / Meds from the online book "The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson, London Trubner Company 1867–1877"
The Meds - 519

From Online Book:

The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period Sir H. M. Elliot Edited by John Dowson

London Trubner Company 1867–1877

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152


 * Chapter on "The Meds" from the book (available online): "The History of India as told by its own Historians. The Muhammadan Period", by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson; London, Trubner Company; 1867–1877 Chapter on "The Meds" From the online version of this historical book, check all three pages of this chapter & Also see page: NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind.

FROM ONLINE RESOURCE:

The Packard Humanities Institute Persian Texts in Translation •	Author List •	Title List Questions and comments can be directed to persian@packhum.org

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/intro.html;jsessionid=E9E8FD18375CD7270DF501B7E980AE9D http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp http://persian.packhum.org/persian/ff?file=works

'''The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period'''  by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson

London Trubner Company 1867–1877

Volume I:	Introduction

Volume II:	To the Year A.D. 1260

Volume III:	To the Year A.D. 1398

Volume IV:	To the Year A.D. 1450

Volume V:	End of the Afghan Dynasty and the First Thirty-Eight Years of the Reign of Akbar

Volume VI:	Akbar and Jahangir

Volume VII:	From Shah-Jahan to the Early Years of the Reign of Muhammad Shah

Volume VIII:	To End of the Muhammadan Empire in India

London Trubner Company 1867–1877

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&file=80201010&ct=0

'''Volume I:Introduction

CONTENTS.'''

Preliminary Note v Editor's Preface vii Sir Henry Elliot's Original Preface xv Notice of Sir Henry M. Elliot xxviii Addenda et Corrigenda xxx EARLY ARAB GEOGRAPHERS. PAGE I.	The Merchant Sulaimán and Abú Zaid 1 II. Ibn Khurdádba 12 III. Al Mas'údí 18 IV. Al Istakhrí 26 V.	Ibn Haukal (Ashkálu-l Bilád) 31 VI. Súru-l Buldán 41 VII. Rashídu-d Dín, from Al Bírúní 42 VIII. Al Idrísí 74 IX. Al Kazwíní 94 HISTORIANS OF SIND. I.	Mujmalu-t Tawáríkh 100 II. Futúhu-l Buldán, of Biládurí 113 III. Chach-náma 131 IV. Táríkhu-s Sind, of Mír Ma'súm 212 V.	Táríkh-i Táhirí 253 VI. Beg-Lár-náma 289 VII. Tarkhán-náma or Arghún-náma 300 VIII. Tuhfatu-l Kirám 327 APPENDIX. PAGE NOTE (A).—GEOGRAPHICAL 353 KINGDOMS. The Balhará 354 Juzr or Jurz 358 Táfan 360 Rahma, Ruhmî 361 Káshbín 361 CITIES AND TOWNS. Agham—The Lohánas 362 Alor 363 Amhal, Fámhal, Mámhal 363 Armá-bel 364 Askalanda 365 Bániya, Bátiya 367 Bhambúr 368 Bráhmanábád, Mansúra, Mahfúza 369 Debal, Karáchí, Thatta, and Láhorí-bandar 374 Hála-kandi, the Hellenes, Pindus 379 Jandrúd 380 Kaikánán, Kaikán, Kákars 381 Kajuráha 383 Kállarí, Annarí, and Ballarí 384 Kandábel, Túrán, Budha, Baizá 385 Kannazbúr 389 Mandal, Kíraj 390 Manjábarí 391 Minnagara 392 Narána 393 Nírún, Sákúra, Jarak 396 Sadusán 401 Sámúí, Tughlikábád, Kalá-kot 401 Sindán, Subára, Saimúr 402 Túr, Muhatampur, Dirak, Vijeh-kot 403 NOTE (B).—HISTORICAL. 405 The Ráí Dynasty 405 The Bráhman Dynasty 409 The Advances of the Arabs towards Sind 414 The Progress of the Arabs in Sind 434 Sind under the Arabs 460 The Súmra Dynasty 483 The Samma Dynasty 494 The Arghún Dynasty 497 The Tarkhán Dynasty 498 Sháh Beg's Capture of Thatta 500 The Death of Sháh Beg Arghún 502 NOTE (C).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind 503 Buddhists in Sind 504 The Jats 507 The Kerks 508 The Meds 519 The Wairsí and Sodha Tribes 531 NOTE (D).—MISCELLANEOUS. The Terrors of the Moghal Helmet 532 Dismounting for Combat 535 Colligation in Fighting 537 Barge, an Arabic Word 539

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=0

The Meds - 519
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152


 * Chapter on "The Meds" from the book (available online): "The History of India as told by its own Historians. The Muhammadan Period", by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson; London, Trubner Company; 1867–1877 Chapter on "The Meds" From the online version of this historical book, check all three pages of this chapter & Also see page: NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind.

"Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

The Meds.

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152

We find the Meds frequently mentioned by the Arab authors on Sind, and, together with their rivals the Jats, they may be considered the oldest occupants of that province, who, in their names as well as persons, have survived to our own times. The first account we have of them is in the Mujmalu-t Tawáríkh, That work mentions that the Jats and the Meds are reputed to be descendants of Ham, the son of Noah, and that they occupied the banks of the Indus, in the province of Sind. The Meds, who devoted themselves to a pastoral life, used to invade the territories of the Jats, putting them to great distress, and compelling them to take up their abode on the opposite side of the river; but, subsequently, the Jats, being accustomed to the use of boats, crossed over and defeated the Meds, taking several prisoners and plundering their country. At last these two tribes, seeing the inutility of protracting their contests any longer, agreed to send a deputation to Duryodhana, the king of Hastinápur, begging him to nominate a king to rule over them. Duryodhana accordingly nominated his sister Dassal (Duh-sálá), the wife of Jayadratha, who exercised the functions of government with great wisdom and moderation. The families and adherents of 30,000 Bráhmans, who were collected from all parts of Hindústán, were sent by Duryodhana to her court, and from that time Sind became flourishing and populous, and many cities were founded. The Jats and the Meds had separate tracts of land assigned to them, and were governed by chiefs of their own election. The queen and Jayadratha made the city of 'Askaland their capital; the same place, apparently, which is called in a subsequent passage 'Askaland-úsa, perhaps the Úchh of later times, as has been shown in another Note of this Appendix (p. 365). Jayadratha was killed in the fatal field of Thanesar, and his faithful wife ascended the funeral pile, after their reign had continued for more than twenty years. On the same field was extinguished the dynasty called after the name of Bharata, he being the most celebrated ancestor of Dhritaráshtra, the father of Duryodhana and the Kurus. On the transfer of the empire to the Pándavas, Yudhish-thira conferred Sind upon Sanjwára, the son of Jayadratha and Dassal (Duhsála), and from him Hál was descended (supra, p. 103). As the Great War, in which these heroes enacted a conspicuous part, has been supposed, on astronomical grounds, to have taken place during the twelfth century B.C.,* we must assign an equal antiquity to their contemporaries the Meds of Sind, if we put faith in this narrative; but as this early settlement is not, in Lassen's opinion, opposed to probability in the case of the Jats, we need not withhold our faith in its correctness with respect to the Meds. Indeed, admitting that the ‘Jartikas’ of the Mahá-bhárata and the Puránas represent the Jats, we cannot but consider the ‘Madras’ as representing the Meds—confirming thereby the antiquity and synchronism of these two races on the banks of the Indus.* During the period of Arab occupation, Muhammad Kásim is represented as making peace with the Meds of Suráshtra, “seafarers and pirates, with whom the men of Basra were then at war.” This gives a great extent to their dominion at that period towards the south-east. In the time of Mu'tasim Bi-llah, 'Amrán, the Barmekide, governor of Sind, directed an expedition against the Meds, in which he killed three thousand of them, and constructed an embankment, which he called the Meds' embankment, probably for the purpose of depriving them of the means of irrigation, as was done so effectually in 1762 and 1802 at Mora and Ali Bandar, when the Sindians ruined the prosperity of north-western Kachh. The word Sakar, ‘embankment,’ is preserved in the town of that name opposite to Rorí, where, however, the mound is a natural limestone formation of about one hundred feet high, and not an artificial causeway.* Nevertheless, we might, if we could be sure that any Meds were then on the western side of the Indus, pronounce this to be the identical locality; for certainly, in Biládurí (supra p. 128), the whole transaction seems to be closely connected with 'Amrán's proceedings against Kandábel and the Jats on the Aral river, not far from Sakar, insomuch that, immediately after settling affairs with them he returns to attack the Meds, having the chief of the Jats in his company. But, as on the occasion of this second attack, he dug a canal from the sea to their lake, rendering their water salt and nauseous, there can be no question of this scene, at least, being in the southeastern portion of the province, where they were settled in the greatest numbers; and here, therefore, we must also look for the embankment raised in the first incursion. They are said to have been attacked by 'Amrán from several different directions, and were thus doubtless reduced to great extremities. During the reign of the same Khalif, we find an Arab chieftain, Muhammad bin Fazl, who had taken possession of Sindán, in the Abrása district of Kachh, attacking the Meds with a squadron of seventy vessels;* on which occasion he took Málí, of which the position may be identified with Mália on the Machú. This powerful armament seems to have been directed against the sea-board of the tract invaded by 'Amrán, now occupied by the Ran of Kachh; where Vígogad, Vingar, and Ballyárí, on the northern, and Phang-warrí, Nerona, Bitáro, etc., on the southern shore, are all known, both by concurrent native tradition, as well as by independent European observation, to have been once washed by the sea. All these various expeditions, however, had but little permanent effect in reducing the power of the Meds, for Mas'údí informs us that, when he visited Sind, the inhabitants of Mansúra were obliged continually to protect themselves against their aggressions.* Ibn Haukal notices them under the name of Mand (p. 38), and though, without the diacritical point, the word might be read Med, yet as all the MSS., few as they are, concur in this reading, it must be retained. He describes them as dwelling on the bank of the Indus from the borders of Multán to the sea, and in the desert between that river and Fámhal, the frontier town of Hind. They had many stations which they occupied as pasture grounds, and formed a very large population, unconverted to the faith. What Abú-l Fidá says of them is taken from this passage, and we do not read of them in any subsequent author.* Hence we might suppose that the tribe is entirely extinct, and have left no memorial of their existence, except the passages above quoted. M. Reinaud, indeed, observes that he finds it impossible to apply the name of Med or Mand, to any known population, and therefore conceives that the denomination is disfigured. But he is mistaken in this supposition, for the tribe of Med still exists, both to the east and the west of the Indus;* and those on the coast, being unable now to practice piracy after the mode of their ancestors, devote themselves to the more tranquil pursuit of fishing. To the east, we find them roving on the borders of Sind and Jodhpúr, the site of their occupation during the Arab period; and to the west, they are found in the little ports of Makrán, from Súnmíání to Charbar, divided into the clans of Gazbúr, Hormárí, Jellar-záí, and Chelmar-záí. It is possible that the Meds, or some offshoot of that stock, may have been designated as Mand, for that syllable enters into the name of several native tribes and places existing to this day: as the Mand-ar, the Mand-hor, the Mind-hro, besides the Bulúch tribe of Mond-rání, as well as the ancient towns of Mand-rá and Mand-ropat, in Cháchagám, to the east of the Gúní, Mand-rása to the north of the Makalí hills, and Mund-ra and other similar names in Kachh. "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152

"Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

That the Mers of the Árávalí mountains and Káthíwár are descendants of the same family, is also not beyond the bounds of probability. The native pronunciation, especially in the western and north-western provinces of Hindústan, tends so much to an intermixture of the cerebral letters r and d,—the written character, indeed, being the same in both, and the diacritical marks being a mere modern innovation—that Mer and Med may be identical: and the addition of the aspirate, which sometimes makes the former into Mher, or, as we commonly write it Mhair, offers still no argument against identity, for that also is an optional excrescence, especially in the names of peoples and families. For the same reason, the connection of the Mahr of Úbáro, and other tracts in the Upper Sind, where they are reckoned by their neighbours as the aboriginal inhabitants of the country between Bhakkar and Baháwalpúr, is equally plausible.* Tod pronounces the Mers to be of Bhattí origin, and derives their name from Meru, “a mountain.” But at the same time that he pronounces them to be Bhattís, he says they are a branch of the Mína, or Maina, one of the aboriginal races of India. These statements are obviously incompatible, and the Bhattí hypothesis must be rejected. During the whole period of their known history, they have been conspicuous for their lawless and predatory habits, from the time when four thousand Mer archers defended their passes against Pirthí-Ráj,* down to A.D. 1821, when their excesses compelled the British government to attack them in their fastnesses, and reduce them to complete obedience. Since which period, it is gratifying to observe that they have emerged from their barbarism, and, under the judicious management of European officers, have learnt to cultivate the arts of peace, and set a notable example of industry to the surrounding tribes. Taking into consideration, therefore, the fact that the Mers of the Árávalí are but little advanced beyond the tract where the Meds are known, a thousand years ago, to have formed a numerous and thriving population; that their brethren, the Mínas, can themselves be traced in their original seats to the banks of the Indus; that Káthíwár, or the Saurashtran peninsula, was the very nursery of the piractical expeditions for which the Meds were about the same period celeberated and feared, and where Mers still reside, we may conclude that to declare them identical, is doing no great force to reason and probability.* The simple permutation of a letter—not unnaturally forced, but based upon a law of common observance—introduces us to a new connexion of considerable interest; for we may make bold to claim, as an ancient representative of this race, Meris, or Moeris, the king of Pattala, who, on the approach of Alexander, deserted his capital, and fled to the mountains. The site of this town, at the head of the Delta of the Indus, answers well to the position which we may presume the chief of the Meds to have occupied at that period; and, that the name was not personal, but derived from his tribe, we may be satisfied, from the common practice of Alexander's historians, as exemplified in the instances of Abisares, Porus, Sambus, Musicanus, Assacanus, and Taxiles, who have these names severally attributed to them from the nations, countries, or towns over which they ruled. Dr. Vincent, in admitting, as the etymon of Moeris, the Arabic words Mír Rais, “the ruling chief,” has suffered his too easy credulity to be played upon by an ambitious young orientalist. Bohlen has attempted to trace in the name of Moeris a corruption of Mahárájá, “the great king,” in which he is followed by Ritter; but, independent of the fact that his kingdom was circumscribed within very narrow limits, he is expressly noticed by Arrian, under the humble title of, which invariably implies subordination, and not supremacy.* A more probable, but still unlikely, origin has been suggested, from the tribe of Maurya;* but they were far away in the east, remote from Sind, so that altogether locality and verbal resemblance are most favourable to the present hypothesis, that Meris is a Grecised form for the “chief of the Mers.” We may even extend our views to a still more remote period, and indulge in speculations whether this tribe may not originally have been a colony of Medes. There is nothing in the distance of the migration which would militate against this supposition, for Hero-dotus mentions the Sigynnæ, as a colony of the Medes settled beyond the Danube:—“How they can have been a colony of the Medes,” he observes, “I cannot comprehend; but anything may happen in course of time.”* The Medians are also said to have accompanied the expedition of Hercules, when he crossed over from Spain into Africa.* The Sauromatæ were Median colonists beyond the Tanais, or Don.* The Matienoi, or Matienes,* the Kharimatai,* and possibly the Mares,* were Caucasian colonists from Media, preserving in their names the national appellation of Mata or Madia. They may either have been transplanted to the banks of the Indus when the Medo-Persian empire extended so far to the eastward; or they may have migrated thither at some indefinitely early period; or they may have sought an asylum there upon the occupation of their country by the Scythians; or during the persecution of the Magi, who consituted one of the six tribes of Medes, just as the Pársís did in Guzerát, at a later period and on similar occasion. It is worthy of remark that Ibn Haukal places the Budhas, or Budhyas, in the same category with the Mand, representing them as comprising several tribes to the west of the Indus. Now, the Budii were also one of the six Median tribes, and the juxtaposition of these two names in the province of Sind should not escape notice, for they also may have formed a body of similar emigrants.* All arguments against the probability of such dispersions stand self-confuted, when we consider that Sindians were on the Euxine;* and that, besides the familiar instances of Samaritans and Jews under the Assyrians, we read over and over again in Persian history, of the deportations of entire tribes, expressly termed by Herodotus.* Thus we have the removal of Pæo-nians to Phrygia,* of Barcæans from Africa to Bactria,* of Milesians to Ampe, near the Tigris,* of Egyptians to Susa,* of Eretrians from Eubœa to Ardericca,* and to Gordyene,* of Antiochians to Mahúza,* and others which it would be tedious to specify. There is another curious coincidence worthy of notice. It is well known, that from below the junction of the Panjáb rivers down to Sihwán, the Indus takes the name of Sar, Siro, or Sira, and from below Haidarábád to the sea, that of Lár. It is more correct, but unusual, to add an intermediate division, called Wicholo, “central,” representing the district lying immediately around Haidarábád, just as on the Nile, the Wustání, “midlands,” of the Arabs represented the tract between Upper and Lower Egypt.* Sir A. Burnes says that Sir and Lár are two Bulúch words for “north” and “south.” But the first is a Slavonic word also, which Gatterer and Niebuhr tell us is retained in Sauro-matæ, signifying “northern” Medes. There were also a province of Siracene, and a tribe of Siraceni, and other similar names north of the Caucasus.* The Slavonic and Persian show a great similarity: thus, spaco signifies “a bitch” in both, and the same with the first syllable of Sauromatæ, or Sar-matæ. * Hence Sar for the “northern” Indus, was more probably a remnant of Median than Bulúch emigration, though the Persian element could be accounted for, even on the latter supposition, seeing what a strong tincture the Bulúchí language retains of its original Íránian connection.* "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=153

"Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

Moreover, amongst the several tribes of Kshatriyas, who, having neglected to observe the holy customs, and to visit the Bráhmans, became so degenerate that they were expelled their caste, and regarded as “Dasyus,” or robber tribes, Manu enumerates the “Pah-lavas.” * “They are,” continues the holy legislator, “Dasyus, whether they speak the language of Mlechchhas, or that of Áryas.” Árya in Sanskrit, airya in Zend, means “noble,” “sacred,” “venerable;” hence a portion of Upper India is called Áryavarta, “the holy land,” or “country of the Áryas.” The Medes being also of the same original stock, were universally called Arii. The Áryas of Manu, therefore, are not necessarily, as some interpret, only degenerate natives, but may likewise have been Medes occupying the valley of the Indus. It is probable that a still earlier, and more degenerate branch of the same family may be spoken of under the name of “Meda,” in the code of Manu, “who must live without the town, and maintain themselves by slaying beasts of the forest.” Allusion seems here to be made to the Mers of the Árávalí.* These indications need not be enlarged on further in this place. Many will, of course, look upon them as fanciful and extravagant. Others, who feel so disposed, must pursue the investigation for themselves; for it is foreign to the main design of this Note, which has merely been to show that we have the Meds of the Arabs retaining their own name to this day, as well as probably under a slightly varied form, in and around the original seats of their occupation. That object has, it is hoped, been accomplished satisfactorily, and with regard to all extraneous matter, to use the words of Cicero, sequimur probabilia, nec ultrà quam id, quod verisimile occurrerit, pro-gredi possumus, et refellere sine pertinaciâ et refelli sine iracundiâ parati sumus.* [General Cuuningham, in his Report for 1863-64, says:—“The Meds or Mands are almost certainly the representatives of the Man-drueni, who lived on the Mandrus river, to the south of the Oxus; and as their name is found in the Panjáb from the beginning of the Christian era downwards, and in none before that time, I conclude that they must have accompanied their neighbours, the Iatii, or Játs, on their forced migrations to Ariana and India. In the classical writers, the name is found as Medi and Mandueni, and in the Muhammadan writers, as Med and Mand.” To show that these two spellings are but natural modes of pronunciation of the same name, the General notices the various ways in which the name of a village on the Jhelam is spelt in different maps and books— Meriala, Mandiali, Mámriála, Mandyála, Mariála, and Merali.] [“The earliest notice of the Meds is by Virgil, who calls the Jhelam Medus Hydaspes. The epithet is explained by the statement of Vibius Sequester, which makes the Hydaspes flow “past the city of Media.” Now this is clearly the same place as Ptolemy's Euthy-media, or Sagala, which was either on or near the same river, and above Bukephala. Lastly, in the Peutingerian Tables, the country on the Hydaspes, for some distance below Alexandria Bucefalos, is called Media. Here then we have evidence that the Medi, or Meds, were in the Panjáb as early at least as the time of Virgil, in B.C. 40 to 30, and as we know that they were not one of the five tribes of Yuchi, or Tochari, whose names are given by the Chinese writers, it may be inferred, with tolerable certainty, that they must have belonged to the great horde of Sus, or Abars, who entered India about B.C. 126, and gave their name to the province of Indo-Scythia.” [As the date of the Peutingerian Table is not later than A.D. 250, we have a break of upwards of four centuries before we reach the earliest notices of the Muhammadan writers. In these we find the Meds or Mands firmly established in Sindh, along with their ancient rivals the Játs, both of whom are said to be the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah. Rashíd-ud dín further states that they were in Sindh at the time of the Mahá-bhárata, but this is amply refuted by the native histories of the province, which omit both names from the list of aborigines of Sindh. Ibn Haukal describes the Mands of his time (about A.D. 977), as occupying the banks of the Indus from Multan to the sea, and to the desert between Makrán and Famhal. Masudi, who visited India in A.D. 915-16, calls them Mind, and states that they were a race of Sindh, who were at constant war with the people of Mansura. These notices are sufficient to show, that at some time previous to the first appearance of the Muhammadans, the Meds must have been forced to migrate from the Upper Panjáb to Sindh. There they have since remained, as there can be no doubt that they are now represented by the Mers of the Árávalí Range to the east of the Indus, of Káthiáwar to the south, and of Biluchistán to the west.” [“The name of Mer, or Mand, is still found in many parts of the Punjáb, as in Meror of the Bari and Rechna Doabs, in Mera, Mandra, and Mandanpur of the Sind Ságar Doab, and in Mandali, of Multan. Mera, which is ten miles to the west of Kalar Kahár, is certainly as old as the beginning of the Christian era, as it possesses an Arian Pali inscription, fixed in the side of a square well. The Mers would seem also to have occupied Lahore, as Abú Ríhán states that the capital of Loháwar was named Medhukur or Mandhukur.* This place is said to have been on the east bank of the Ravi, and, if so, it was most probably Lahore itself, under a new name. There is an old place called Mandhyawála, on the west bank of the Ravi, and only twelve miles to the south-west of Lahore, which may possibly be the Mandhukur of Abu Ríhán. But the old mound of Mirathira, in the Gugera district, in which figures of Buddha and moulded bricks have been discovered by the railway cuttings, is a more likely place. This frequent occurrence of the name in so many parts of the Panjáb, and always attached to old places, as in Mera, Mandra, and Meriali, of the Sindh Ságar Doab, and in Med-hukur or Mandhukur, the capital of Loháwar, offers the strongest confirmation of the conclusion which I have already derived from the notices of the classical authors, that the Meds or Mers were once the dominant race in the Panjáb. The special location of the Medi on the Hydaspes by classical writers of the first century of the Christian era, the evident antiquity of Mera, Meriali, and other places which still bear the name, and the admitted foreign origin of their modern representatives, the Mers, all point to the same conclusion, that the Medi, or Meds, were the first Indo-Scythian conquerors of the Panjáb.” [* * * * “About this time (30 to 20 B.C.) the Meds may be supposed to have retired towards the south, until they finally established themselves in Upper Sindh, and gave their name to their new capital of Minnagara. As this could scarcely have been effected with the consent of the former occupants of Upper Sindh, whom I suppose to have been the Iatii, or Jats, I would refer to this period as the beginning of that continued rivalry, which the historian Rashídu-d dín attributes to the Jats and Meds.* To this same cause I would also refer the statement of the Erythræan Periplus, that about A.D. 100, the rulers of Minnagara were rival Parthians, who were mutually expelling each other.”] "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=154

'''NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL.

Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind.'''

The names, which are given in the Beg-Lár-náma (p. 292) as three:—“Bína, Ták, Nabúmiya,” amount to four in the Tuhfatu-l Kirám (MS. p. 4)—“Banya, Tánk, Múmíd, and Mahmír.” They are given from Sindian authorities by Lieut. Postans, in the Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal (No. cxi. 1841, p. 184), as “Nubeteh, Tak, and Moomeed;” and again, by the same author (No. clviii. 1845, p. 78), as “Nubuja, Jak, and Momid.” It would be a matter of great interest to restore these tribes correctly, and ascertain the course of their migrations. I can trace the mention of them to no earlier authority than the Beg-Lár-náma. All their names, except one, defy positive identification, and we may put the list of the Vishnu Purána and the Asiatic Researches through all kinds of contortions, without meeting any race that will yield a sufficient resemblance for our adoption. That single exception is “Ták,” about which there can be no doubt. “Bína” may possibly represent “Mína,” the probable founders of the celebrated Minagara, and the present occupants of the upper Árávalí range. Or if “Baniya” be the correct reading, then the designation may have been applied to them, as being foresters. In “Múmíd” we may perhaps have the “Med” of the Arabs; and in the “Mahmír,” we may chance to have the representatives of the “Mhairs,” or “Mairs” of Rájpútána, if, indeed, they differ from the Med. We can venture upon nothing beyond these dubious conjectures. That we should find the “Ták” in Sind at an early period, is by no means improbable, and if the statement rested on somewhat better, or more ancient, authority than the Beg-Lár-náma, it might be assumed as an undoubted fact, with some degree of confidence. Tod exalts the Táks to a high and important rank amongst the tribes which emigrated from Scythia to India, making them the same as the Takshak, Nágabansí, or serpent-race, who acted a conspicuous part in the legendary annals of ancient India. His speculations, some of which are fanciful, and some probable, may be found in the passages noted below.* One thing is certain that the Táks were progenitors of the Musulmán kings of Guzerát, before that province was absorbed into the empire of Akbar. Tod observes, that with the apostacy of the Ták, when Wajíhu-l Mulk was converted, and became the founder of the Muhammadan dynasty of Guzerát, the name appears to have been obliterated from the tribes of Rájasthán, and that his search had not discovered one of that race now existing; but there are Táks amongst the Bhangís, who, though of spurious descent, have evidently preserved the name. There are also Tánk Rájpúts in the central Doáb and lower Rohil-khand, whose privileges of intermarriage show them to be of high lineage; and there is a tribe of nearly similar name existing near Jambhú, not far from their ancient capital Taksha-sila, or Taxila; of which the position is most probably to be sought between Manik-yála and the Suán River, notwithstanding some plausible and ingenious objections which have been raised against that opinion.*

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=147

Buddhists in Sind. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=148 The Jats. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=149

The Kerks. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=150 http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=151

Above pages are from the now online book:

The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period Sir H. M. Elliot Edited by John Dowson

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Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME
Mers are certainly representative of ancient Med tribe.

They were Scythian and perhaps earliest Aryans in this subcontinent.Azeri an Iranian tribe is also related to Meds as per DNA studies who speak a language similar to avestan.

I guess Sarmatian are closely related to Meds.Again since Khurds are related to sarmatian they in turn look brothers of Mers as well .This fact was also observed by Arabian authors who visited both kurds and Mers in earlier times .Movement of Mers from indo- iranian boarders to Croatia and Serbia are well recorded.Both Jats and Mers had common origin and had been adversary and allies many times in power struggle.

I feel Scythian Mers and Scythian Jats differed in their religious faiths where Mers are predominantly Vedic and Sun worshipper Jats mostly prefered Fertility cult of Shiva in initial period.

I feel Rajputs has a majority Mer and Gujjar ancestry and relation of Rajput and Mers represent relation between two groups of same tribe where one retained the original identity and other adopted a later identity.

I don't know about joint movement of Meds and gujjar (georgian )(gurgian)but that point can clear a lot of confusion in Indian history if found true.

[ Edited by N_SINGH on 2007/7/9 2:10 ]

N_SINGH Senior Member Joined: 2006/2/4 Posts: 561 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=2681

Medes: Hammitic? Aryan?
MEDES WAS SOME TYPE OF INDO-EUROPEAN, ARYAN OR PEOPLE CLOSE TO IRAN, OR MOST LIKELY THE ANATOLIAN REGION.

MEDES IS NOT FROM HAM! HAM OR HAMITES ARE THE BLACK NEGROES IN AFRICA AND THE DRAVIDIAN NATIVE NEGROES AND AREN'T ANY TYPE OF ARYAN OR HIGH CASTE, OR PERSIAN OR RAJPUT OR ANATOLIAN OR JATT OR ANY TYPE OF CAUCASOID. TRY EITHER JAPHETH OR SHEM. BUT SURELY NOT HAM!

Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME
Well this depends on their location and more recent history, Mers have been around a lot longer then the rajput term was given to tribes. The term rajput is a recent one.

Mahers of Punjab do call them selves rajputs although in the past 2 hundred years have been sonnars. But mahers of madya pardehs n some mer tribes of rajesthan cannot be called rajputs or even kshtriya becouse they married into lower casts.

So not all mers call them selves rajput.

but Mahers of katyiar western Gujarat called them selves rajputs becouse of their constant participation in war. They are counted as one of the 36 clans of rajputs. But then formed their own identity and culture seprate from other rajput tribes.

Like a Mer can only marry a Mer and they have different customs from other rajput tribes. A lot of Mers do not even call them selves rajput because they think that the Mer history is longer and more greater then just the rajput history.

Here are the sub divisions of rajput Mers, these mers are only present in western Gujarat because these are the only Mers that have been a fighting race even up until recent times.

The Rajput Mer Lineages • Keshwala (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Antrolia & Erda • Sisodia (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Modhavadia, Godhania, Khastriya, Ranavaya, Kuchadia & Haddiya • Odedra/Sumra/Soomro/Sumera (Yaduvanshi) o Subdivisions: Visana • Rajshakha (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Khunti, Karavadra, Gorania Sundavadra, Bokhiriya, Selor, Selan & Jethwa • Parmar (Agnivanshi) o Subdivisions: Mahiyaria, Balega, Mundera, Pata & Gorsera • Jadeja (Yaduvanshi) o Subdivisions: Kadcha, Tarkhala, Ratia & Kadegia • Vala (Suryavanshi) • Chauhan (Agnivanshi) o Subdivisions: Gareja • Vadher (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Vadar & Bajigiya • Chavda (Chandravanshi) o Subdividions: Bhatti, Bhutiya & Bhadia) • Chudasama (Yaduvanshi) • Solanki (Agnivanshi)

[ Edited by Rajput-Maher on 2007/7/8 9:31 ]

Rajput-Maher Regular Member Joined: 2006/4/25 Posts: 249 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=3102

IS RANA A JATT SURNAME
Hi All,

More info on the Mers

As previously mentioned in my post & based upon the research I have carried out the word Mer/Mher/Mair/Mhair/Maher/Meher/Mihir/Mahar/Mar all these words refer to same people, the theory is that it varies depending on the region for which this aboriginal tribe is found example Punjab, Madhya Pradesh, Sindh, Rajasthan or Kathiawar (West Saurahtra).

We by now know that the ancestors of the Mers are indeed the great warriors known as the Meds/Mands/Medas/Medes/Mind and the Median Empire was embraced as one of the most powerful kingdoms ever.

The Mers/Meds a Aryan Race (Indo - European)

The word “Aryan” originated in Iran, since the first Persian,Med and Parth tribes moved to the warmer regions, which were located south of Caucasia.

Those tribes (Persians,Meds and Parths) call themselves Aryans and therefore they named the region "ARYANA=Land of Aryans, the country today known as Iran has its name based upon. Because of similarities in language between several languages, historians call people of several nations the so called "Indo-Europeans” or “Aryans".

The Mers/Med settlements The ancestors of Mers the Meds entered the Indian through the North-west continent (today known as west Punjab) together with Georgians of Georgia around B.C. 126. (Source: Hoskyn, 1922 pp. 22). The Georgians were later known as Gurjars. One specific report indicated that these people entered India through Baluchistan via Iran (Nadvi 1955, p73-75) At this time western India was under the sovereignty of the Guptas. The Kushans were out of the picture long before the Guptas came into power. It seems that the king of the Gupta dynasty in the northwest province drove away the migrant invaders i.e. the Meds and the Gurjars, to the south. The southern region of the Indus valley in the north was governed by the Jats, who flooded the country in the same way some three centuries earlier.

The Jats opposed these foreigners, who eventually overcame them. Thus, the Meds settled to the east of the Indus River, and the Gurjars went further south, It is reported that of the two tribes the Meds lated called Mers or Mahers predominated in power and influence. (Hoskyn, 1922, p. 115-117, and Elliot, Ibid., p. 519.)

So basically the ancestors of the tribe Mers the Meds entered India through the in those days Pujab Sindh region and continued further south into Gujarat leaving settlements in Ajmer (from the great Mer Sardar Ajo), Jesalmer (from the great Mer Sardar Jaslo), Badmer (from the great Mer Sardar Bad), Komalmer (from the great Mer Sardar Komal) & the Marwar region (Mhairwara region belonging to partially to Udaipur and also Jodhpur). They seemed to have settled down in the Kathiwar region and are today to be found in villages around Porbandar known as the Mahers of Kathiawar.

--

Suryavanshi-Rajput Quite Regular Joined: 2005/8/30 Posts: 108 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=1917

Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME
Mahers/Mers are basically the descendents of the meds/medes who were of Scythian/Median origin who inhabited areas of Punjabi, sindh, Gujarat. And cities like Merwar and ajmer you can see the mer influence on these cites as their names are derived from the Mer tribe.

However their social standing changed depending on the areas they lived and their situations.

Maher rajputs of Punjab became mainly sonnars, Mers of madya pardesh become exogamouse (married into) lower caste tribes and were looked down apon.

However the Mers of katyiwar have always been a martial race. They were warriors for the jethwas rana and conquered many lands. And also mixed heavily with other rajput gotras to create a uniqe fighting force at some point in history.

below is some information about the original Mers or meds

As the date of the Peutingerian Table is not later than A.D. 250, we have a break of upwards of four centuries before we reach the earliest notices of the Muhammadan writers. In these we find the Meds or Mands firmly established in Sindh, along with their ancient rivals the Játs, both of whom are said to be the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah. Rashíd-ud dín further states that they were in Sindh at the time of the Mahá-bhárata, but this is amply refuted by the native histories of the province, which omit both names from the list of aborigines of Sindh. Ibn Haukal describes the Mands of his time (about A.D. 977), as occupying the banks of the Indus from Multan to the sea, and to the desert between Makrán and Famhal. Masudi, who visited India in A.D. 915-16, calls them Mind, and states that they were a race of Sindh, who were at constant war with the people of Mansura. These notices are sufficient to show, that at some time previous to the first appearance of the Muhammadans, the Meds must have been forced to migrate from the Upper Panjáb to Sindh. There they have since remained, as there can be no doubt that they are now represented by the Mers of the Árávalí Range to the east of the Indus, of Káthiáwar to the south, and of Biluchistán to the west.” [“The name of Mer, or Mand, is still found in many parts of the Punjáb, as in Meror of the Bari and Rechna Doabs, in Mera, Mandra, and Mandanpur of the Sind Ságar Doab, and in Mandali, of Multan. Mera, which is ten miles to the west of Kalar Kahár, is certainly as old as the beginning of the Christian era, as it possesses an Arian Pali inscription, fixed in the side of a square well. The Mers would seem also to have occupied Lahore, as Abú Ríhán states that the capital of Loháwar was named Medhukur or Mandhukur.* This place is said to have been on the east bank of the Ravi, and, if so, it was most probably Lahore itself, under a new name. There is an old place called Mandhyawála, on the west bank of the Ravi, and only twelve miles to the south-west of Lahore, which may possibly be the Mandhukur of Abu Ríhán. But the old mound of Mirathira, in the Gugera district, in which figures of Buddha and moulded bricks have been discovered by the railway cuttings, is a more likely place. This frequent occurrence of the name in so many parts of the Panjáb, and always attached to old places, as in Mera, Mandra, and Meriali, of the Sindh Ságar Doab, and in Med-hukur or Mandhukur, the capital of Loháwar, offers the strongest confirmation of the conclusion which I have already derived from the notices of the classical authors, that the Meds or Mers were once the dominant race in the Panjáb. The special location of the Medi on the Hydaspes by classical writers of the first century of the Christian era, the evident antiquity of Mera, Meriali, and other places which still bear the name, and the admitted foreign origin of their modern representatives, the Mers, all point to the same conclusion, that the Medi, or Meds, were the first Indo-Scythian conquerors of the Panjáb.” Link - http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=154

Rajput-Maher Regular Member Joined: 2006/4/25 Posts: 249 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=3102

The above book / material was found discussed on the forum above :

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http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5292&forum=6

Atulsnischal 10:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Following text inserted in Mair Rajput article was pasted to Sunar article where it is relevant
“Sunar: The occupational caste of goldsmiths and silversmiths. The name is derived from the Sanskrit Suvarna kār, a worker in gold. In 1911 the Sunārs numbered 96,000 persons in the Central Provinces and 30,000 in Berār. They live all over the Province and are most numerous in the large towns.”

“The Sunārs also have a story that they are the descendants of one of two Rājpūt brothers, who were saved as boys by a Sāraswat Brāhman from the wrath of Parasurāma when he was destroying the Kshatriyas. The descendants of the other brother were the Khatris. This is the same story as is told by the Khatris of their own origin, but they do not acknowledge the connection with Sunārs, nor can the Sunārs allege that Sāraswat Brāhmans eat with them as they do with Khatris.”

“Owing to their association with the sacred metal gold, and the fact that they generally live in towns or large villages, and many of their members are well-to-do, the Sunārs occupy a fairly high position, ranking equal with, or above the cultivating castes.”

Refrence: R.V.Russell assisted by Rai Bahadur Hira Lal; The Tribes and Castes of the Central Provinces of India; published under the orders of the Central Provinces Administration, McMillan and Co. Ltd., St. Martin Street, London, 1916

Atulsnischal (talk) 02:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

POV forcing again Sunar information from Central Provinces in Mair Rajput article so reverting edit, relevent information has been pasted in Sunar article already.

Atulsnischal (talk) 13:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Removing weasel words
The following text, which user:Atulsnischal is adamant on pushing on wikipedia is highly flawed, unverifiable, POV and wishful thinking.

user:Atulsnischal has been invited to discuss and provide reliable NPOV citations for his claims on talk pages of article Sikh Rajputs. Nevertheless, he not only fails to discuss and provide reliable information but continues to push his POV onto wikipedia. Please do not restore this content as its highly flawed. See the talkpage of article Sikh Rajputs for more information. Thanks, --Roadahead (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, this page also has the same contentious POV material that is being disputed on Sikh Rajputs page. The issue is being dealt with and a decision will be reached for consensus on this page also.--Shanti bhai (talk) 20:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The request for citations has been in excess of a year here also... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanti bhai (talk • contribs) 13:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Atulsnischal, please do not delete this section from the talk page again and address the concerns. If you are adding quality material to this article you should have no problem defending it in a way that an uninvolved party can see it is a legitimate opinion. Collaboration is about finding a mutually agreeable wording. Certainly ignoring others concerns is not collaboration. David D. (Talk) 20:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

POV Remark removed and listed here for record
" Initially, the treasure of kings was managed by the Brahmins.But, the kings relied more on their sons and daughters. So they gave the treasure to them. The kings ordered their sons and daughters to increase the wealth in their treasure that was Gold, Silver, Diamonds and other precious stones. At that time agriculture was not so developed so they did not take any kind of interest in land.Therefore, they started a business of Gold, Diamonds and precious stones.Even today the business of gold and diamonds is run by mostly royal clans. The people of lower castes are not allowed to practise this profession even today. Thus,the traditional treasure owners of ancient India are Mair Rajputs. Thus,the Mair Rajputs are the real ancient royal rajputs.It is evident, even from their body structure and royal touch in behaviour and living style.

To be called as Goldsmith(Pbi:Suniar, Hdi:Sunar), is a matter of proud for all the Mair Rajputs, because only the royal clans can take control of business of Gold and Diamonds, which is the traditional profession of Mair Rajputs.

The history of Mair Rajputs can be traced back to vedic age. They belong to Kashtriyas of Aryans.But the name Mair belongs to Marwar region of Rajasthan. The prefixes Mair, Mayer, Mer have the same meaning.A few families may had migrated centuries ago. But, now their population is very large. They have dominated education, business, innovation and proved their royality in every field of advanced technology."

Above POV Remark of User "Harwinderkarwal" removed and listed here for record.

mrigthrishna (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment needed at Talk:Khatri
There is a dispute at on the page Khatri. keeps reverting the article to a version which says:


 * "Khatri is the name given to Mair Rajputs, Sikh Rajputs and Muslim Rajputs"

The citations provided to support this statement (and some other statements) failed verification -- other editors checked the sources provided, but could not find any text which says that Mair/Sikh/Muslim Rajputs are Kshatriya.

The page has been protected now to prevent a revert war, and the current version of the page contains the above claim of Rajputs being Khatri in the intro.

If you are knowledgable about the topic Rajput, or have a source which proves/disproves the above claim, please help resolving the dispute at Talk:Khatri. utcursch | talk 06:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Subcastes
I have removed the section for subcastes. It was very poorly sourced (including to the dreaded James Tod, it was extremely poorly written, it used anecdotal evidence of various contributors as well as hearsay, and generally it simply was not up to the most basic Wikipedia standards.

There is nothing to prevent the information being added back, but only if it complies with our policies and guidelines, including WP:RS, WP:CITE, WP:NLIST and WP:V. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Reverted to "MAIR RAJPUTS" OLD VERSION that I originally wrore with sources, please improve on it and help find sources

 * 20:37, 3 April 2012‎ Atulsnischal (talk | contribs)‎ . . (11,445 bytes) (+6,124)‎ . . (reverting to oldid=290798455 original referenced article updated to 21:14, 18 May 2009‎ by Atulsnischal before it was freely POVed and vadalized by people with agendas prooving Mair Rajputs are Not RAJPUTS or from high caste KSHTRIYAS) (undo)

mrigthrishna (talk) 20:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Atulsnischal (and why are you displaying an alternate name? That gets confusing since it appears you're a different person), the version prior to your "restore" is the NPOV version, it has most certainly not been vandalised, and it is properly footnoted. The text you want to restore has a large number of POV statements (mostly praising the caste), it pre-supposes that the issue of their Rajput-ness is resolved, it has a massive number of links which mainly seek to promote the subjects Kshatriya, warriors, etc. And, possibly most importantly, it has a huge list of "references" with no indication whatsoever that anyone actually used those references, or if so where they applied them so we can debate the sources.

So far as "please improve on it and help find sources" - no, that's not how this works. It is not incumbent upon other editors to (attempt) to source your POV statements. We have an article with proper footnoting, if you want to add to it you need to find sourcing, statement by statement, to justify insertions. If there is material you object to, bring it up here on Talk, don't just blank the article, undoing the work of people who actually followed procedure, wrote neutrally, and provided explicitly clear footnotes with links to the source. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move to Mair (caste)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Mair caste Mike Cline (talk) 12:51, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Mair Rajputs → Mair caste – I submit the title is POV since it pre-assumes the validity of Mair claims of Rajput ties, and also is not the most common term for the group. While there are some GoogleBooks hits for "Mair Rajput", there are plenty for simply "Mair" or "Mair Sonar/Sunar". I see no reason why the very title should endorse contested claims, and I'm not seeing any indication that there is a distinction between "Mair Rajput" and "Mair" overall. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV. Indeed, there are a few other articles with this mis-titling. They are slowly being weeded out. - Sitush (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm noticing a trend wherein most Rajput articles don't have Rajput in the title, but for those that do, such as Rawat Rajputs, usually in about 2m of googling I can find some mention that their Rajput status is contested: Rawat Rajputs are a service caste who traditionally were servants to the Rajputs. They do not intermarry with other Rajputs and are not considered as true Rajputs by the Rajputs.. Is there any WP policy that basically amounts to "methinks thou dost protest too much"? Anecdotally, such protest was what initially got me into India articles in the first place, when I noticed that about every caste article I ran across at WP:UNCAT (where I was volunteering at the time), mentioned "Kshatriya" somewhere in the lede, and I started finding it odd that India just has so many castes of elite warriors... MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We should just stick to our article titling policies/guidelines. My mention of other articles here was primarily to pre-empt someone suggesting that X Rajputs already exists & therefore the title of this article is ok. The WP:OSE argument, in other words. - Sitush (talk) 16:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent edits and reverts
There has been some to-ing and fro-ing going on here as of late. I have just reverted a block of edits because they appear to be huge changes to sourced content and a probable reversion to a previous state that was unacceptable per policy etc. However, I would hope that if the issues remain then they could be discussed here beforehand. As stated at the head of this page, this article is subject to sanctions and as such we all need to take care. - Sitush (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Regarding sunar claim
Is there any academic source which actually calls them sunar? - NitinMlk (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I cannot recall ever seeing one. - Sitush (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I've removed the sunar bit for now, as I also couldn't find any reliable source for the same. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm from Mair Rajput community and a Goldsmith. My surname is Dhunna. Please include 'Sunar' back. (btw, i personally dont follow any caste system -Parvinder Singh). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.14.107.210 (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Mairh Rajput
Mairh Rajput 2405:204:148B:FDCC:0:0:19B8:70AD (talk) 23:08, 30 January 2022 (UTC)