Talk:Majin Buu/Archive 3

SWEET PROTESTANT HERCULES but this article is bloated
And severely, at that.

An encyclopedia entry isn't supposed to be a straight-up "blow-by-blow" account of everything done by a person or thing EVAR~!!, especially when the article has its roots in fiction. The amount of bloat here is obscene; *no* person unfamiliar with the character is going to want to wade through all that. For a long time now, editors have been stuffing Buu with something other than candy - superfluous stuff added just because "it's there", and Wikipedia is NOT a breakdown of every DBZ pinch fight. I don't mean to single this article out or come off as belligerent (despite being sooooo good at it) but while Majin Buu's not alone by the longest of shots, it truly is a bad case.

We've all been guilty of it at one time or another, but the KISS principle needs to be put into full effect: show most of this 67 KB calam... *ahem*, plot synopsis the door. Papacha 20:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

SWEET SASSAFRAS but this article *still* needs an enema
As mentioned above, Majin Buu could stand to lose at least a third of its bulk to qualify as something other than plot synopsis to the über power. It would behoove the article muchly for folks to get off their Wiki-star kick - though I already know the counter-argument - and help make it a better article.

And about the peer review - I don't think too many editors (or readers) are going to have the wherewithal to creep through this overrun jungle of a page without some serious hedgeclipping. Too much attention's been diverted to edit-warring to notice just how far it's gotten out of control. Papacha 21:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wiki-star: And i know exactly where we can begin! We can eliminate that useless section about Buu's what-if transformations. That would be the best start. We can go from there. Wiki-star 21:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No, we should revert it to before you started to change it and then summarize it from there. Nemu 21:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I took out all the information that I thought wasn't needed...Its not much of a change though. Majin Buu just does too much in his exsistence to have a short article. I'm still up for the idea of making seperate articles. KojiDude (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not at all. Attacks need to be shortened, as does transformations. Wording should be tightened and extraneous information removed (which is why I don't endorse "versus", as there needs to be even LESS of it). Running commentary on each skirmish Buu gets into is not necessary; overall they're too wordy and need to be broken down. Redundant bits and fancruft one wouldn't normally find in an encyclopedic reference need to be killed, as this article's currently max WP:CRUFT. Not everything needs to be told just because "it's there"; Captain Kirk's page doesn't go all-out chattin' how he fought the lizard guy, the Horta and banged more green chicks than you can count. This page alone is larger twice over than Cell's, which is over the border on DBZ-cruft of itself. Woof. >_> Papacha 23:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Gawd, the original research on Cell needs attention. But first..trimming this one. Onikage725

Wiki-star has been blocked
Now we can get have some peace. Nemu 22:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 0_0 Dude I never thought I'd see this day! We should have a party or somthing once we fix up the article. KojiDude (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm the one who finally bothered to put it on WP:AN/I. Now, where's my pizza =D --mboverload @  22:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * COPIED FROM THE ANI PAGE: :I blocked Wiki-star indef for severe WP:OWN issue and and coming back to edit war after each block. Jaranda wat's sup 22:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Archived most everything to do with Wiki & Buu, since neither should have been synonymous for the past five months. Papacha 00:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like Wiki-star was right after all... He said that he wouldn't stop until justice was served... Hmm... Justice tastes so sweet... yes... --3bulletproof16 00:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I...I'm speechless. I'm overwhelmed. Seriously, there could be tears. Onikage725
 * This is good to hear, I stopped bothering with the article, I just didn't have the energy to keep re-fixing things everytime he changed something.Darkwarriorblake 11:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But has Wiki-Star been blocked for good this time? If he hasn't, then those celebrations are useless, because he will come back. Jienum
 * Yes Wiki-star has been blocked indefinitely. Take a look at this. --3bulletproof16 16:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've just got three words to say: HIP HIP HOORAAAYYYY!!!!! Jienum


 * I am posting this time because Wiki-Star has not only vandalized here at wikipedia, but he entered a forum of mine and posted idiotic, moronic, and flamatory remarks...it's becoming very annoying. I just want to say that he is being a real chaotic troublemaker and his obscene language and disgusting mannerisms are causing mass havoc. I am excessively tired of his annoying foolishness. I need someone to help me with this child's behavior because he is continuing to vandalize and I am frankly tired of deleting and ip banning him from my place. Also, I would like to congratulate whoever banned him here indefinitely. However, I'm pretty sure that he will go get another name and continue his stupid moronic vandalisms with that name. Hopefully, he won't be allowed to cause as much trouble and will be stopped immediately upon the slightest suspicion. - Zarbon

Suggestion
There's...too much here. Example, 3 paragraphs on Fat Buu vs Dabura, possibly the most inconsequential of Buu's fights (if it even really counts as one). But there's quite a bit. If everyone agrees that this should be trimmed (is that the case?) maybe we could assign sections. Expecting any one person to read through this essay and shave it is a daunting task (and bound to tick some people off if they feel the "wrong" information was cut). What do you think? I don't want to make any major changes before hearing feedback, but I'm sure I could gut the transformation section pretty easily. Pretty sure I could explain Fat Buu in fewer than 21 sentences. Also, this was brought up a looong time ago and ran head first into a wall named Wiki-star. Should we use the actual original listed names for the handful of forms that had them, or continue with the fan terms that FUNimation adopted for video games, toys, and cards (Fat Buu for Good Buu, Evil Buu for Pure Evil Buu, Super Buu for Evil Buu, and Kid Buu for Pure/Genuine Buu)? Onikage725


 * But that is exactly what happened during Dabura's encounter with Buu. What's there to cut? All of that is what exactly happened with Majin Buu, so why should it be reduced to a mere summary? Jienum


 * Yes, but it's not the job of this article to give a blow by blow of every second of Buu's existence. We can convey in an encyclopedic manner that Dabura turned on Buu and Buu ate him without devoting three paragraphs of space to the encounter. The current formt caters to the hardcore DBZ fan, and let's face it- we all know how these fights went anyway. We need to make this article more accessible to the average reader, and that means trimming down on the superfluousOnikage725


 * Yeah, some of us have been cropping for a while now. Transformations and the main plot beginning with "Origins" still needs to be worked on, though. Voice of Treason 21:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It sounds good to me. And for the names, wouldn't it depend on which ones are used the most by wikipedians in the search bar? KojiDude (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The names, fan or no are what every english speaking person refers to those forms as. Kid Buu is technically just Buu though.

The vs thing should go, dunno who added that but its not necessary and a lot eneds to be summarised. I had to try and do the same thing with the Vegeta article/Goku article. Blow by blow accounts of every second of every episode aren't needed.Darkwarriorblake 15:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I also agree with the points above and those made by Onikage725 and Papacha. Now that Wiki-star is gone, work needs to be put into this article to bring it to an encyclopedic standard. It's way, way too long. No average reader's going to look through all this; the page needs to be summarized. Once that's done, more attention can be paid to info like Neko Majin Z, which is just a one sentence blurb when it's new material by Toriyama. Voice of Treason 17:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, but we'll have to be careful. I mean, we don't want to make the article as short as before, because people may not understand it. If we do it together, I'm sure we'll succeed now that we don't have to endure the annoyance of that git anymore. Jienum


 * How am I doing so far, everyone? I've condensed normal attacks and the front part a great deal, I'm doing his absorbed techniques next. Voice of Treason 19:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Very good, so far. Nothing wrong that I can see. Nemu 20:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking a crack at transformations. I'm trimming power estimates/speculations, since his fights and the outcomes are in the bio already. Is that alright with everyone? Onikage725


 * Ah, forget it. I was contemplatin' removing caps from the transformation pics, but the results leave much to be desired. Of course, this has *NOTHING* to do with the topic at hand, but after bitching about the same thing twice already I didn't feel right chokin' out another one. I'm swo sworry. v_v Papacha 05:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I must say the forms section is a lot better now, with the B2 forms, Uub and Majuub. But I still think the story part has been a bit too summarised (At least, that's my opinion). Anyway, you guys, I think I need a bit of help on the page I made recently about East Kaioshin (Supreme Kai). If that stupid malfunctioning OrphanBot deletes the image I uploaded, could one of you guys upload one? Jienum


 * Add a link here to the new article and I'll see what I can do. --3bulletproof16 18:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Here it is: East Kaioshin. Jienum


 * Added a new licensed image to the article. Is that one OK or do you want me to add a different one? --3bulletproof16 18:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a great image. It's a better view of East Kaioshin and the quality is even better than the one I uploaded. Thanks, Bullet. Jienum
 * You're welcome. Glad to help. --3bulletproof16 19:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

For the love of God, too many unnecessary images
Now that wiki-star's gone (thank god), the images on this page...there's too many unnecessary ones that need to be removed. I personally feel the forms are enough. None of the battle images or game shots are needed. Thoughts? - Zarbon


 * I think what's on there right now is fine. The battle ones were pretty pointless. Nemu 00:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * meh.. --3bulletproof16 01:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Me? I think the article's too backloaded, apart from Ubuu and the Budokai 2 what-ifs. I'm for killing the transformation portraits altogether in lieu of adding stills relevant to the plot; not the "baijillion million" there were before, but point of interest stuff like Chibi eatin' the Genki Dama. Having *every* pic in the piece dedicated to Buu's different forms is far from a good thing. Depending on length (still TOO DANG BEEFY, for my tastes), we can prolly comfortably fit one or two per section. Also - there's sub/dub anachronisms all over the place. That needs to be decided one way or the other. Papacha 03:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What hurts my head to think about is that the article probably needs a total overhaul. We're spot checking it here and there, but we're working off a flawed copy, ya know what I mean? Onikage725


 * I've added some storyline images for now. Those of you who are against it, discuss it with me first, please. Jienum

Is there a place where we can have an expert type of person review the article? The peer review doesn't seem to work.Nemu 17:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Jienum, seriously too many images. At least remove Buu decapitates Dabura and Buu Vs Buu 2 as well as the GT images since neitehr of those make any sense visually, theres one with the back of Buu and a big black orb and one with Buu with a bunch of colourful energy lines in front of him. I like the one of Super buu standing over Gohan though.Darkwarriorblake 17:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Buu Vs. Buu images should stay at least. I will remove: the Dabura one, the thought form one, and Fat Buu absorbing Bebi's attack. The others make sense and should stay. Jienum
 * If I recall, the Freeza article saved some space by having an image that contained four of his forms. Buu has one like that somewhere; it would make for a great swap in my opinion. --Orion Minor 19:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about the ugly one that used to be in the article or a good one like in the Freeza article? I don't think the old image is good enough for the article, but one like the Freeza one would be good. Nemu 19:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I could make an Image like that...I don't know what the copyright status would be though. KojiDude (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of images, does anyone think this should be put somewhere in the article? Nemu 20:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, because none of those are canon. KojiDude (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by not canon? Those are just possible designs Toriyama was working on that I think would be worth sticking in the article somewhere. Nemu 23:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you know for a fact that it was designs by Toriyama, go ahead and put it in. KojiDude (talk) 02:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * They are indeed, from the fourth daizenshuu. Please don't use that pic or include it in the article though, as it's a blanked ripoff without attribution of the original pic scanned at http://www.daizex.com, along with other character designs. Add links to the site instead, along with Buu's transformation guide. Voice of Treason 03:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Appearances in other media
I really feel this should go above transformations and stuff like that, especially if Neko Majin Z is ever expanded upon. Techniques, forms, etc. are just toppings on the cake; these are actual uses of the character in another medium and should have more importance. I'd also put his spot in Neko Majin Z above video games, as it's manga from Toriyama. Voice of Treason 22:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The forms he takes are all important as he is shown in some of them for a great deal of time and need to be in the core of the article. Even if he has shown up in Neko Majin Z, its not exactly that important yet, does anyone in the west even know about it compared to the Buu they know from DBZ?  His DBZ-ness is the most important part of the article.Darkwarriorblake 13:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't agree, but instead of having a revert war (just like old times!) would like to survey the interest of other editors in a straw poll, just to get everyone's feelings on the matter and where the article should go. Both Cell and Freeza are set up in this manner, and I think it's best for Buu to flow the same way. Voice of Treason 03:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that kind of structure is non sensical, it is placed such that after reading about what he has done, you can easily scroll and see the differences between the Buu's. Why would you want to know about Neko Majin Z and his other appearances mid-way?Darkwarriorblake 22:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Because those appearances, those uses of another character are more important than "Generic Ki Attack, #1B". As an encyclopedic entry, those rank above attack lists in order of prominence, or should (in my opinion) anyway. Voice of Treason 23:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Superman has a section like that at the bottom and it's a featured article, so I think the section should be left there. Nemu 23:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really, it's set up with different comic incarnations of the character (Golden Age/Silver Age/Modern Age) above all else, which is more similar to DBZ/Neko Majin than what you're reasoning for. Voice of Treason 23:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? This is about the other media section which all of the featured article comic book characters have at the bottom of the article, not the rest of its set-up. Nemu 23:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Characters like Superman aren't the best example, there are so many comic book revamps (as mentioned). It's just a concern I have for improving DBZ articles, other stuff like it not even having a character template like Naruto, Tenchi Muyo!, InuYasha, and others and the bad way the minor character (and even most of the majors) are in. Voice of Treason 23:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't particularly mind it going above the attacks but again I think its an illogical structure, background, forms, he was in Neko majin, attacks. But attacks are the least important section I think.Darkwarriorblake 23:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Which is the reason for the survey. I don't at all mind if you guys dissent, just looking for your thoughts so the article could be set-up, then improved. Voice of Treason 23:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what you mean by it not having a character template like Naruto, tenchi Muyo, etc. I've seen teh naruto page, its horrendous.  Truly eye gougingly bad.Darkwarriorblake 00:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's where I don't understand where you mean; I think the Naruto page is set up far better than the articles at Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z. It may be a matter of preference, but I don't know why you'd think it was eye-gougingly bad. Character templates aren't really a concern, just something I had seen done on most other VG/anime pages. Voice of Treason 01:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't like how the pages are set up, maybe you should try to set up a Dragon Ball WikiProject. Nemu 01:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There's already a project set-up, if I recall correctly. Voice of Treason 04:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support as nominator. Voice of Treason 03:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Against Darkwarriorblake 22:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Against KojiDude (talk) 23:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Against Nemu 23:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Against Jienum 18:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Against Onikage725 22:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I think that the character's personal abilities should take precedent over Neko Majin Z and VGs. However, and call me crazy if you will, but I would be for moving the B2 transformations down to his Video Game section. One the hand hand, they fit under the header of "Transformations," but on the other hand they are by definition "Appearences in Other Media." Onikage725
 * Okay, I withdraw. I had hoped at least one person wouldn't think it was a "nonsensical" idea. :( Voice of Treason 01:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Special abilities
Should the section be made into a paragraph format? Would that make it look more enclyclopedic? Nemu 23:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, bullets are for the best. Paragraphs would run on. Voice of Treason 23:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Semi-Protection
Took you admins long enough. Thanks a lot guys! --3bulletproof16 22:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What about Tenkaichi 2? KojiDude (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, is it true!? Is Wiki-Star back!? Jienum


 * It really doesn't matter now, the article has finally been protected from him. Short of going to friends houses to sign up, he should not be able to damage this article ever again.Darkwarriorblake 14:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I hope not. Jienum 20:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, everyone! I know that this is irrelevant, but seeing as though most of our discussions take place on this page, I thought I might let you know that it's my big brother's 21st birthday today! Jienum 13:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This won't pass GA
There's no cites, notes, or sources (non-verifiable), layout isn't what it should be with play-by-play in the main portions of the text, there's no outside views, opinions, or reasons for creation of this fictional character from Toriyama and others, images don't have the proper fair use rationale, there's a good many suggestions in the peer review that haven't been followed, etc. It's better than what it was, but Buu is far from a good article. If I hadn't contributed significantly to the page I'd fail it myself.

It's also unstable, the reason why it's protected and been an issue for so many admins the last few months. Voice of Treason 06:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * All excellent points. I'm going to list the article as "on hold," which gives any interested editors seven days to act on the items you mentioned.  --cholmes75 (chit chat) 17:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

My argument?
The reverted version fails WP:LEAD. Miserably. Totally. With finality. It will NEVER pass WP:GA in such a condition.

His name pun is too concise to deserve its own paragragh, and your argument of "voice actors" is moot as they were already given their own in a change we both agree on. The burden of proof falls on you to explain your changes (which you declined to do for the initial two changes, including the first revert); instead calling on me to "discuss" in your stead. Voice of Treason 01:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Even ignoring guidelines, it looks bad. The summary should be able to tell you about it without looking through the rest of the article. Nemu 01:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.

The lead is for summarizing the rest of the article, and should not introduce new topics not discussed in the rest of the article, as per WP:LEAD. Please ensure that the lead adequately summarizes the article.[3] "


 * Taken from the peer review page. Talking about his Vas and his ability to stretch his arms isn't a summary that should appear in an introduction.  It's also as long as the Goku and Vegeta article intros, the Goku article close to being a GA itself.  Just because the intro CAN be long doesn't mean you should pad out it to make it so.  So taking out VAs and his ability to stretch his arms for a moment, feel free to make it longer, if you can properly summarise the article.Darkwarriorblake 01:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * VAs were already taken out; why do you keep going back to this? His ability to body manipulate and constant hunger are gone over again in the article as major character traits. Why you are so focused on this instead of adding references or critical interpretation is odd to me, particularly if you guys are so set on it making good article now. Voice of Treason 01:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * With the references, would they just be the Anime, manga, guidebooks and few websites or something else? Nemu 01:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * They fall under whatever can be referenced for the character. So you've got it: those can all go, as well as info taken from magazines and interviews in Shonen Jump. Website information will have to be backed up by one of the above, though. Voice of Treason 01:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The third paragraph should be rewritten to suite all the Buus instead of mostly Fat Buu. Nemu 01:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You're in violation of the three revert rule with that last change, Darkwarriorblake. Voice of Treason 01:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm lost, VAs weren't out when I edited it and the character traits are covered in the article and not necessary in a summary. I don't know what else I can be focused on when those are the problems O_o.  I have no idea how to make references for an anime character.  YOu can basically stick References = Dragon Ball Z.  That's it.  Thats where the character info comes from. Darkwarriorblake 01:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * They weren't at first, they have been on the last couple. If that's what you think references to be this article fails WP:GA automatically. Right now you're "telling" the reader what to believe without citing a source, other than Dragon Ball: no volumes, episodes, chapters or pages. Voice of Treason 01:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Then thats your job. Go, read all the manga, watch all the anime, locate the pages and episodes which confirm all that is displayed.Darkwarriorblake 01:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, Darkwarriorblake, it'd be your job. You need to find sources for your claims. It's nobody's job to find them for you because you're too lazy/stubborn. --KojiDude (talk) 01:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Civility please, DWB. Don't tell other editors what "their job" is, and to do the work for you if you wish this article to pass WP:GA. You asked what was needed beyond DRAGON BALL, so I filled you in on what was needed to be done. I feel this article is too far away to be considered that status, and that it should be re-nommed again a bit later once those criteria have been met.


 * Another reason it won't pass is what's happening now: the article is far too unstable. Judges consider that as a factor. Voice of Treason 01:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * -_-; what claims? I didn't write the whole article.  VOT, asking someone else to revert the article fully with disregard for 100% of the changes made because you've expended your reverts?  That's low.


 * The job thing was sarcasm, noones doing the work for me because I was never interested in nor was I going to do the referencing work.


 * EDIT: Re-reading it, its also pretty obvious sarcasmDarkwarriorblake 01:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you're not interested, then stop. Don't bother with this page and getting it to good article status anymore, as your attempts will be in vain; such things are needed to have it pass muster for our peers. I already covered your revert of someone else on their talk page, after you ignored the discussion you asked for. And I'm not alone on my comment, as KojiDude didn't see your post as "obvious sarcasm" himself.


 * I'm not telling you to quit, but if you are not "interested in nor (were you) going to do the referencing work", then it shows something of a lack of dedication on your part; saying you're doing something to get it to a certain grade but ignoring the remaining prerequisites via disinterest or not caring doesn't help meet your goal in the least. Voice of Treason 02:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

So, what kind of things are going to need exact sources like page numbers? I can't really find an example in any other articles. Nemu 01:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Simply referencing a saga or a book doesn't cut it. Guidelines are at WP:REF. Voice of Treason 02:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

With the voice actor thing, should they just be added to the bar of information or left in paragraph form? I don't think the list is a good idea. Nemu 02:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's the same format as other large DBZ articles. It'll also be beneficial when more details are known about other voice actors for Buu in different areas/languages.Darkwarriorblake 02:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably paragraph form, like the Superman article you once showed me. None of the large DBZ articles are good articles, either. Voice of Treason 02:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * POV. Darkwarriorblake 02:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Of most judges that pass these articles. It seems to be the preferred format. Voice of Treason 02:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I don't get about the references part is...well I don't often see articles of this nature that have to reference sub sections of a single story for every scrap of info. Not quite the same thing, but I should point out that Revenge of the Sith was a featured article, and I don't think there is a single reference in the plot synopsis. The reference is assumed to be the movie itself. I don't see that kind of thing on most series' pages either. Is there a good article of this nature that could be used as a guideline for this kind of referencing? Also, how in depth must it go? The Buu Saga moves forward non-stop (especially in the manga). From Fat Buu to the end of the series with Uub in the anime is 216 Magic Ball of Buu - 276 Goku's Next Journey (English) or 231 The Seal is Broken... The Ultimate Evil Majin Buu Appears... - 291. To Become Stronger! Son Goku's Dream is to Surpass it!! (Japanese). Onikage725

I don't really know about the references. The articles always differ. We should probably focus on the other points made.

layout isn't what it should be with play-by-play in the main portions of the text How do we deal with this? Just cut the synopsis way down?

there's no outside views, opinions, or reasons for creation of this fictional character from Toriyama and others

The only thing I can think of is the scan of the page with the sketches on it. Unless somebody can find some interviews. I haven't seen any.

images don't have the proper fair use rationale

Just the basic low resolution screen stuff?

I'll have to look at the peer review thing again. Nemu 18:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yea, I don't get the "creation of the character" stuff. I mean, we could pour through Shonen Jump issues looking for translated interviews, but it's usually not in depth character creation stuff. He's fairly laid back and kinda reclusive. Our best source for his work is the work itself, short of someone learning Japanese and finding his cabin and harrassing him for info. Onikage725

I added a fair use thing to all of the images. Do they look good? Nemu 18:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Time to go!"
I wash my hands of it. Since Darkwarriorblake's so eager to accuse me of WP:OWN, breaking WP:NPOV, having a cabal with Nemu, and, paraphrasing his words, is able to ignore the three revert rule where I am not, I'll refrain from again ever editing this article. I usually hate these spiels, as they come off as sad cries for attention, but since he deems it a big enough deal to effectively name me the next Wiki-star I thought I'd formally announce it for the benefit of the group.

Sorry. I didn't want to be Joel Siegel at a screening of Clerks II. Voice of Treason 03:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Who's ignoring the three revert rule? The first intro paragraph is barely different, I edited the text so that it was a little clearer. I didn't revert anything and left the rest of the intro intact. Creating a big dramatic post is very Wiki-Star btw. I wasn't accusing you of being him but the drama post really is his raison d'etre.

Jeez, its not like I even made a huge edit, I cleared up the voice actors and cleared up the intro. I really think you are overreacting.

EDIT:

And in response to "You know what happens when you assume. I don't know Nemu any better than you, but I let him know of your revert. You reverted AFTER discussion and a 2nd user, where I stopped, you didn't. "

I came here to discuss it and during that discussion it was reverted from all the changes I had made, without regard for any of them, just a full revert. I didn't discuss then keep right on reverting. My changes were simply not considered.Darkwarriorblake 03:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination has failed
The Good article nomination for has failed
 * Instability, many unresolved issues from previous GA and Peer Review comments.

cholmes75 (chit chat) 16:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, let me have a go at re-writing the article, and maybe things will change. Jienum 10:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course it won't. You think by adding a bunch of fleshed out plot it'll turn heads (I'm guessing 83.43.180.182 is you). But what Wikipedia wants is the direct opposite, and what editors of this Buu article originally worked for - severe shortening, with an emphasis on writing from a fictional universe perspective, viewpoints and sources. You've only lessened its chances of ever making GA; ignored what was asked for from the previous peer review and comments.


 * Still, I won't revert or touch the article again. Others can decide your edits worth, or lack thereof. Voice of Treason 14:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Voice of Treason has a point, the article needs to be shortened, not stretched out. I don't really think Majin Buu is going to get GA any time soon.-- Koji Dude  14:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For starters, Yes, that user 83.43.180.182 is me. I just wasn't logged in at the time. Anyway, I didn't know that writing the article like that would only lessen it's GA chances. Had I known, I wouldn't have done it. But I just don't think the article can be shortened the way it was before. Doing that, we would most probably get a "Buu fought Dabura and ate him. Buu fought Gotenks and absorbed him. Buu fought Vegetto and absorbed him. Buu fought Goku and Vegeta and was killed." And, if I may ask, whoever said that the Majin Buu article had to be nominated for a GA test? I mean, if it isn't obligatory, then we needn't fuss so much about the page (That's as far as my knowledge goes. If there's more, please let me know). If the article must be shortened, I'd like to help. You know how much I hate editing something that turns out to be a headache for other editors. Jienum 14:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I already have a headache from trying to get my colored sig to work on Bulbapedia. @_@
 * I don't think there's any way to get the article any shorter without seperating it into 3 different articles (For Fat Buu, Super Buu and Kid Buu). It's up to you and whoever else you want to discuss it with, though, because I'm not good with extensivley long articles.-- Koji Dude  15:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Realistically the article can't be made any shorter excepy for maybe drastic edits of the saga appearances with a link to the Buu Saga summary article which I'm sure will exist. Other than that, the article is a lot more stable, are there any reasons for the failure besides that?Darkwarriorblake 15:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You guys have to understand that you don't need a detailed summary of each fight. The summary of the fight should be in the Buu Saga article. Instead of paragraphs of "Buu did this, then fought him, but then almost lost to him, but then won because of this..." you can just say, "Buu defeated and absorbed x,y,z, and then fought and defeated x1 before being subdued by y1." Is some info lost? Yes. Is the article worse? No, quite the opposite. I'm assuming some of you have graduated from high school and can understand that longer is rarely better. You need the absolute skeleton of the article: "Super Buu fought, defeated and absorbed x, y and z before encountering x1. X1 fused with Y1 and nearly defeated Buu, but was ultimately absorbed." I'm adapting these phrases from my old tutoring handbook. I know you're thinking: "but all that info is lost!" Well, here's part of learning to write: understand your reader. If someone new to Buu read this large article, they would get overwhelmed and stop reading. If someone was familiar with Buu, they would know the details anyway. This massive article helps noone. But as an encyclopedia article, it is meant to collect the notable information about Buu, not all the info about him. Anyway, I'm sorry, but this is a very poor article, maybe it would make a good article on some other site, with some other objective, but the people writing it are too attached to the material. As a side note, you have no reason to not eliminate a large amount of pictures, you are violating the fair use policy. You can consolidate some of the images by using the group image that had three forms of Buu. The Frieza article used a similar image and it saved three images. --Orion Minor 07:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright then, Orion. See if you can find a picture with all of Buu's forms that is as clear as the Freeza one. I'll tell you now that I have already looked, but with no luck. Jienum 12:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Kafziel referenced this one: http://www.myfavoritegames.com/detail.aspx?i=Buu%2fBuuCollage.jpg. There's no need (key word here is 'need'', necessary images are the only ones allowed under the fair use rule) for the following images by the way: Buu is hatched, Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo looks down on the weary Mystic Gohan, Super Buu w/Gohan battles Vegetto, Kid Buu prepares to destroy Earth, Buu Vs. Buu: Round 2, The Evil Buu is vanquished, and the four frame one.--Orion Minor 02:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why remove the four frame one?-- Koji Dude  03:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've taken a closer look at the image and am now on the fence about it. The image shows four of his forms in one, which is good, but it is also very blurry and hard to make out, barely helping out the reader. I'd actually be for a slightly larger of that image. But don't just focus on the images, it's the text that needs the most cutting back.--Orion Minor 07:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That picture isn't a very clear one, in my opinion, but still better than nothing. But why should we remove the current pictures from the Buu section when pages like Piccolo and Uub have some? Jienum 10:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Those pages are bloated too and probably would not pass a GA nomination. About three images on the Piccollo page could go, but keep in mind that Piccollo had a greater amount of screen time. I'm just trying to help you guys understand what would make this thing pass GA. Remember that "Better than nothing" is not a golden rule in this case, as Wikipedia articles are bound by Fair Use, and that only allows a small amount of absolutely necessary images. Anyway, this page is now off of my watch list, as I only came here to help out with the vandalism. I might pop in from time to time, but it's up to you guys to fix this thing. I think now that it's failed GA there is proof that it is not as good as some people had hoped.--Orion Minor 18:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Base Form??
Which is Majin Buu's TRUE base form? Is it Fat Buu or Kid Buu? In my opinion, it cannot be Fat Buu because he was the result of Super Kid Buu absorbing Grand Supreme Kai. Majin Buu started out as Kid Buu, so I think that it is his base form and should be on the profile table. Not only is Kid Buu his base form, but his final form also. --Jienum 20:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think it should be the most recognizable form. Most people are going to see Fat Buu before any other version. He's also the one around the longest and still continues to exist.Nemu 20:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if you're not counting the Non-Canonical Dragonball GT, the one who is seen for most of the time is Super Buu. I don't think it really matters which one is seen for most time, so I think the base form should stay, namely Kid Buu. It is, after all, the true form of Majin Buu, isn't it? Jienum 22:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Fat Buu is the best choice because its the first form veiwers/readers see him in, it's his most recognizable form and is around the longest. Fat Buu by far is the most important Buu, and is also a "good guy". Kid Buu is around for the shortest time (less than one volume) and doesn't even speak.--KojiDude (talk) 22:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, that's true. Fat Buu is the good guy. Jienum 11:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Simply put, his base form is Kid Buu. --Cerebrus13 02:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not as simple as that. In the end, there were TWO Majin Buus. One Fat, one Kid. If it's possible that the now good Fat Buu could have the Kais removed from him and turn him into another Kid Buu, then yes, Kid Buu is the base form. Jienum 12:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

it certainly needs changed i will if you think its proper remove it-Lord Marzock

It was stated that Kid Buu is the original Majin Buu so I don't see what the problem is. Also the articles for Freeza and Cell don't use their base forms.

Starone 23:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Kid Buu IS the original Majin Buu. However, I believe Fat Buu is the base form, as most people think of Fat Buu when they refer to 'Majin Buu'. And he's also been in the anime and manga FAR longer than all other forms (If you count the thousands of years he was stuck on Earth) 66.222.198.50 07:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops sorry guys, that last comment was mine VelocityEX 07:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Un-needed?
"With a new home, Fat Buu, now known as Mr. Buu, is free to live a peaceful life with Mr. Satan, but has a hard time adapting to human laws, especially the concept of money, which he wins in a money-hustling game against a boxer. Over the years, Mr. Buu gets used to his new life, and frequently helps Bulma with her shopping.

''At one point, Mr. Buu foils a robbery being committed by the boxer and his manager. Using the same bullet trick Raditz once used on a farmer, Mr. Buu manages to scare the robbers out and make them surrender to the police. This also humiliates Gohan and Videl, who had just shown up in their Saiyaman attire to stop them."''

I don't think this is nesecary info, so I was going to remove it, but I decided to ask other people's opinions first.-- Koji Dude  18:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, who the hell added that? Remove it. Darkwarriorblake 18:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For your information, it was I who put it, thank you very much. Anyway, was it Anime Filler? If it was, then delete it. I'm not bothered now that I've realized I only lessened it's chances of becoming a GA. Jienum 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

he's a djinn...
I tried to change his race from unique to djinn but someone keeps changing it back...it states in the manga that he is a djinn. --The Fear 22:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Care to show a source? That may just be part of his name. We don't really know, so it should be left unique. Nemu 22:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a source...volumes 21-26. It specifically says he is a djinn. Just curious, have you read the manga? ill try to look for pages on the web that says he is a djinn. --The Fear 14:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Has anyone ever called him a djinn besides in his name? It can just be his name. We don't know unless it's stated that a djinn is actually a race and not his name. Nemu 14:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Lol, yeah. Ill quote the book right now, volume 21: "This djinn possess niether reason nor emotion..." and also here: "...he placed the djinn under a magic seal."--The Fear 14:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Could it be possible that "Djinn" means "Majin"? I mean, the "Majin" sounds like "Demon Person" if you think about it (Ma + Jin). Jienum 11:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Djinn is just Viz altering the manga again just to be different. Djinn is not what Toriyama wrote him as. In the origional manga he's a majin, majin means magical or demonic being which is what Buu is and that's what he should be classified as. Almost everyone calls him Majin Buu, not Djinn Buu and in most versions he's a Majin. Not to mention that the use of the word Djinn makes the huge M on his belt thing make no sense anymore. If you don't want to use the word Majin then use demonic being or something.

Also, this section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majin_%28Dragon_Ball%29 is called Majin, not Djinn. And look at the catagory for Babidi and his group under Dragonball Characters, is it called Djinn? No, it's called Majin. Djinn is just a stupid name change.

Starone 02:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I also think it should be noted somewhere that Djinn is what Viz changed it to in the English manga and that in most versions he's a Majin.

Starone 15:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Kid Buu makes perfect sense
Okay, for consistency's sake, let's use the individual names for each of Buu's forms. (I.E. Fat Buu, Super Buu, etc,) as I don't think it's fair to just call one of them Majin Buu and have separate names for the rest, since they're all Majin Buu. That being said:

He started out as Kid Buu. He absorbed the South Kai, becoming Buff Buu. He then absorbed Daikaioh, becoming Fat Buu. He expelled his evil self, becoming Good Buu and spawning Evil Buu. Now, we have to realise that Buu expelled ALL evil from himself in doing this, meaning that Evil Buu had the evil sides of the kais inside him. I'd assume that's why he's not Kid Buu, cause the evil kais make him the way he is. Thus, when Evil Buu abosrbs Good Buu and becomes Super Buu, he is, in essence, Kid Buu with Good Buu, the evil South Kai and the evil Daikaioh absorbed. Skip ahead to when Gotenks punched Buu and turned his eyes red. Personally, I think that the sheer force of that punch either A, tore the pods containing the evil kais loose, or B, set off some sort of strange reaction which rejoined the evil kais with their good halves inside Good Buu. So he went from white eyes, (more similar to Evil Buu,) to red eyes. (More similar to Kid Buu.) Personally I think it's the latter, but then this is all just my explanation. Yadda yadda yadda, Buu absorbs some people, then they're removed. Vegeta tears free the pod containing Fat Buu, leaving, tadaaaa! The original Buu, Kid Buu. I know Akira Toriyama only made Kid Buu from the fans wanting Goku to defeat him, but in doing so, he made everything make sense. At least to me. Any opinions?

Which form should go in the ID Table???
I know that some of you say that Fat Buu should stay in the table, and others say Kid Buu should. I think the best way to settle this little matter is to put it to a vote. Jienum 22:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
 * I think it should be Kid Buu because that's his true form. Sasuke-kun  27  02:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is his true form, but the problem is, in the end, there are two Majin Buus, one Kid and one Fat. The evil one's base form is Kid Buu, and the good one's base form is Fat Buu, since he can't become another Kid Buu. That's the small problem. But still, I believe that Kid Buu should go in, though I've already voted. Jienum 10:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it should be the form that would be reffered to the most. Fat Buu seems much more notable and sticks around. Nemu 15:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So is this where I can vote? Sasuke-kun 27  14:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Nemu 15:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it if I had to choose between Kid Buu and Fat Buu, it would have to be Fat Buu because he's been around the longest and he's probably the most familiar. So Fat Buu's got my vote. Sasuke-kun 27  15:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, then. Let's vote.


 * Kid Buu Jienum 20:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Uub NOT Ubuu
I'll never understand for the life of me why fans who are completely oblivious to the Japanese language seem to know what they are talking about. When Boo merges with Oob, they simply form a stronger version of himself. No new name or anything. Only the dub has renamed him to Majuub. In the original, he's constantly called "Ubuu" due to the fact that it's not possible for the Japanese to say Uub without ending it with a vowel. The writing of the name is BACKWARDS for Boo, as Goku says when we first meet the kid.

When it comes down to merging with Boo, his name does NOT change. He's still refered to as Oob. The only place that gives a slight difference in the Japanese name is the upcoming Sparking! Neo game which calls his form Oob (Super). It's still Oob. He's just been given a Super powerup. Tsukento 00:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you make this assumption? Can you provide sources that state this as being true? The names are Uub and Buu NOT "Oob" or "Boo". If you're going to be making an argument against the use of FUNimation naming, at least try to avoid being hypocritical by then using dub names for characters.


 * And yes, Uub is the reverse of Buu. That kind of negates your point, your saying that, doesn't it? Since "it's not possible for the Japanese to say Uub without ending it with a vowel" which would make the name "Uubu" and thus not the reverse of "Buu"?


 * Daishokaioshin 07:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Repetative Info
Hey guys, just dropped by to look at the article. Quick note: if something is covered in one of the Buu Saga articles, and is more about the saga then Buu, it doesn't need to be in the Buu article. That's what the for more info lines are for. Take a look at some of the Marvel character pages, a good amount of them have histories that are more fleshed out (due to their longevity) then Buu's, but have smaller pages. Cable (comics) and Jean Grey are good ones. There aren't any featured articles on anime characters with large histories to base pages like Buu's off of, but these articles show how you can sacrifice specifics for quality. Well, I'm out for the next few weeks to continue my Wiki-break. And please, get rid of some of the images.--Orion Minor 04:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Length
This article is a bit to long dont you guys think.

Games
I tried to insert that Fat Buu was in Battle Staduim DON but it was deleted. I'd like an explination as to why that happened (and if you're only including games that were released in the US then why are Super Butoden 3 and Hyper Dimension on there?).

Starone 17:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Name change
Buu seems to be the only character (or one of the only characters) from DBZ who doesn't use the manga name. Personally, I prefer Majin Buu over Djinn Boo, but I think that we should be consistant with the names. Any opinions? // Sasuk  e  -kun  27  03:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought we were using original Toei names, so the article should be Majin Boo, or something. Just my thought on the matter.--SUI T 42 04:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you will never get this article to use Toriyama/Toei name. Majin Boo is his correct and offical romanization of his name. But this article is full of narrow minded dubbies who refuses to listen reason. I would change, but it will be reverted back to Buu in no time. Sorry to have shot your hopes down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.117.68 (talk • contribs).


 * Actually, his romaji name is Majin Buu, not Boo. Boo is his manga name. Second, if we were using the romaji names, Vegeta would be Bejita. // Sasuk  e  -kun  27  20:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to clear up the confusion, we're using manga texted names people! That's why I'm trying to get "Hercule" moved to "Mister Satan" and others to their appropiate manga names, since Akira Toriyama is the one who names these fictional characters. Remember that the Dragon Ball manga has the highest source of canon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Power level (Dragon Ball) (talk • contribs)


 * What the fuck? No, seriously, what the hell? The character's name is MAJIN BUU. Just because Viz translated the character's name as "Djinn" whatever does NOT make it the correct name. The name used in the ORIGINAL MANGA is "Majin Buu". I don't recall any concensus being reached on this subject for changing the name to "Djinn Boo". Do NOT just move pages without discussing it. That is the mark of a retard. You don't want to be considered a retard do you?


 * Please discuss this here. Now. Immediately. Because I am going to be moving it back to Majin Buu (the CORRECT name) if someone can't provide a good reason for why this move happened. The Viz manga calls Vegetto "Vegerot". The article for Vegetto is not "Vegerot" it's "Vegetto". We use the actual names over messed up names at ALL TIMES.


 * Daishokaioshin 03:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Mellow out. Anyway, I agree with you.-- SUIT What!? 42 03:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish people would stop saying there's a consensus when there really isn't one (thats the idea I was getting from people saying "We use the English manga names). I'm just trying to get a damn naming format instead of us picking and choosing like a bunch of elitists. And nobody mention discussing anything when everybody just leaves right in the middle of it. Nemu 03:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if we go by any manga we should go by the original Japanese manga since it's the direct original product. We really shouldn't rely on the English manga all that much (at least not over the Japanese manga) because of all the alterations it made. And in the original Japanese manga his name is MAJIN BUU.

Starone 18:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Boo with Piccolo absorbed
There is a section for Boo when he has Piccolo, Trunks and Goten in him (right after Gotenks defuses), but what about the part where he only has Piccolo in his body? This happens after Goku and Vegeta pull out the pods containing Goten, Trunks and Gohan. He changes to a version of Boo wearing Piccolo's purple outfit. This is indeed a seprate form of Boo! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chibi Gohan (talk • contribs).


 * They're the same exact thing with a very minor difference, so it's only worth a quick mention in that section. Piccolo is just alone, and his appearance is slightly different. Nemu 22:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

But it's a seperate form nonetheless. I think if a form such as Boo with Trunks, Piccolo and Goten has a section, so should the form with just Piccolo, just to be complete. Chibi Gohan 19:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Something like that belongs in the trivia section if anything. I could be wrong, but I don't even think that happened in the manga. There really isn't enough to give a whole section too. Onikage725

Super Buu was not wearing a purple outfit after Goku and Vegeta pulled out gohan, goten, and trunks. Super Buu was only wearing a white cape not to mention pants and boots.

http://images.myfavoritegames.com/gallery-db-z-gt-x/Screenshots/Dragonball_Z/15._Fusion_Saga/260._Deadly_Vision/260-21.jpg This will prove it.

He only has the Piccolo cape. Darkwarriorblake 22:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Just FYI, he actually did have Piccolo's full outfit in the manga after Gohan was removed. Starone 04:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, I could care less about what was in the anime. In the manga, he has two seperate outfits; I suppose the animators failed to notice. Chibi Gohan 05:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorect move
Majin buu doesnt learn Goku's Teleportation but Kibitoshin's Kaikai this needs to be changed DBZROCKS 13:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How can you tell?-- SU IT  -n-tie 05:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well for a start, Kid Buu never sees Goku use his move, which has a imited range anyway, and since Buu is able to teleport anywhere (even the Otherworld) we must assume that he leanred Kibitoshin's Instentanious Movement when he took Goku and Vegeta to the land of the Kais. 86.112.249.31 12:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Woops, I wasn't signed in here^ Madness 12:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)