Talk:Make It Happen (Mariah Carey song)/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer:  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 15:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This article is badly in need of a copyedit. I won't go through every problem, but here's how I would improve the first paragraph:
 * Growing up (A)s a child, Carey lived with her mother Patricia in a small apartment in Long Island, New York.[1] They lived poorly, and had to move several times throughout the years as Patricia found different jobs.[1] As a result, Carey has frequently transferred into different schools. several times during her childhood, and aside from living in poverty, was surrounded by racial discrimination. As she grew older, Carey soon became more independent and (A)t the age of seventeen, Carey moved out of her mother's home and into a small Manhattan studio with many other female students (of whom?) . [2] Her main motive for the move was to somehow pursue a career in music , . (S)he already had begun working on her demo tape with Ben Margulies, a fellow classmate at her school in Huntington, Long Island.[2] During this period in Carey's life , she lived an increasingly a poor lifestyle, often sharing a box of spaghetti with her five roommates and wearing torn shoes.[3] However, as her mother lived a similar lifestyle, she chose not to ask for financial support and chose to find some form of income. She found held several jobs over the year, often struggling to keep up with her schedule of work, while juggling school and nighttime life of writing and recording music.[3]


 * ✅ - I also tried making some other fixes to the prose as well.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay. For the rest of it, see if you can find an experienced editor willing to copyedit for you.
 * Now would be a great time to get your request in with the Guild of Copy Editors. The backlog is small and turnover is rapid.  This nomination will fail without a good copy edit.
 * I have asked a friend of mine in the real world to provide a good copy-edit for me. He will do so shortly. The GOCE seems too time consuming.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   22:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Really, it's pretty fast. Even if it weren't, I wouldn't make a decision on this GAN if the copy edit request were still open.


 * POV
 * ✅-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * How about removing the later sentence about tempo and start the paragraph this way: "'Make It Happen' is a dance track that draws influence from pop, R&B, gospel and dance-pop genres; its tempo is 59 beats per minute."


 * ✅ - made the change-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   11:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks about the same to me. You still use the POV term "mid-tempo" and the BPM mention doesn't occur until later in the paragraph.


 * Citations
 * –Many of the facts supported by "Nickson 1998, p. 75" are not found on that page.


 * When I'm back home tomorrow, I will re-check all the Nickson pages, and add the correct pages for all.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ - I added a different reference that discusses the idea in detail.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   11:44, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You are really testing my patience now. The only thing the new reference says – I have access to the full article through Factiva – is that the song has a "positive message [that] soars through a gospel rearrangement."
 * So it turns out it was the wrong page. I switched the 75s to 61s. Please check if you'd like for verification, I believe I have covered this.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Changing 75 to 61 solved some problems and created others. I strongly encourage you to double check every Nickson reference now.
 * I legitimately did. If there is any source of line in particular you have an issue with please tell me.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   22:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * References 11d, 11e, 11f and 11g point to the wrong page. I think the statement you reference in 11c is the last sentence of the relevant paragraph, and if that's the case, the sentence you wrote is overreaching.  Also, I can't find the quoted phrase "piling their vocals" (11f) anywhere in the book.
 * Reference 30b says nothing about the video's being filmed on Long Island. The sentence you back up with 30d is an overreach, but I'd say a reference isn't needed there at all.  Earthly and humble are not valid to substitute for the ones Nickson wrote in 30f.  The first sentence of the quote in 30g does not exist in the book.
 * Reference 31b should be p. 71, not 72.


 * There is a source there.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You'll want to test that link...
 * ✅ - Replaced the link. Check now.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   11:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

There are other examples in the article where the statements go beyond what the source says.
 * Don't forget about this one.
 * ✅ - Addressed above.--[[User:Petergriffin9901|CallMe Nathan ]] &bull; Talk2Me   11:44, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * ...in a manner that exacerbates the problem. Please try to fix each instance without my having to point them all out.
 * Okay, so I've rephrased it so it doesn't suggest that Nickson made a conclusive statement regarding the racial equality (as he didn't in fact), so I just switched it a bit, I think its better now.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Better to incorporate the ideas into your own sentences.
 * Fair use
 * I'm not sure as to where you are referring. Care to give me an example?-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Both of the indented quotation paragraphs.
 * I see where you are coming from, but I feel that it is appropriate to use it this way. Look at other FA/GA like "4 Minutes (Madonna song)" and Confessions on a Dance Floor-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   11:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * On second look, the second quote is probably okay. Here's the problem with the first, though: the first two sentences add nothing beyond what's already been stated in that paragraph.  And given the last sentence, you might rearrange the "Music and lyrics" section so that discussion of the lyrics comes first.  Then you can use parts of the last sentence of the quote later to emphasize that the music was written to serve the lyrics (as opposed to other songwriting approaches where lyrics are written to fit the feel of the music).
 * ✅ - I think this one is done. I removed a chunk of it that was already described in the body.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   18:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

The only thing in that description that warrants musical accompaniment is the "growling vocals". That the song has a bridge and chorus and inspirational/personal lyrics are things convincingly conveyed by words. You might try incorporating a detailed quote from a reviewer about some aspect of the song that is illuminated by the existing sample.
 * I will try. But I hope it not an issue. All GA/FA song articles have samples. I don't see how to really better it :( Can you give me an example?-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In my FA, Lions (album), the caption of the "Young Man, Old Man" sample includes comparisons made by critics, so the sample is the perfect way for the reader to evaluate the validity of the critics' characterizations. Your part about the growling vocals does that (and you should add the citation where a critic uses that term), but you don't need a sample to highlight lyrics, since you can quote them instead.  So see if you replace that part of the caption with someone's characterization of the chorus.
 * ✅ - I think I have done as you asked here.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   11:15, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Try something like this: "A 30-second sample of "Make It Happen", featuring vocal growling,[citation] jazzy undertones[citation] and a gospel finish(?) with the inclusion of the church choir.[citation] Critics compared the song's climax to a prayer to God.[citation]"
 * ✅ - Thanks for the suggestion. I added the description and added all the refs to each description of the song and its traits. Please check them.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   18:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Almost ready to strike this concern, but the reference named "church" doesn't exist.
 * Fixed the reference. Its there now :)-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

This list is not exhaustive, but I want to see some effort before I spend more time reviewing, especially since your last nomination was a relisting of a failed nomination with no changes in the interim.  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 15:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that so far, I believe I have made the required fixes. Thanks!-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   00:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Only replying for now. More issues tomorrow...  Two Hearted River  ( paddle  /  fish ) 02:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Round two
 * In the infobox, four formats are listed for the single. Later on, only the tracklistings of the CD singles are given.
 * ✅ - That was there before I updated the article, so I guess I forgot to fix it.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh, those other formats exist...
 * In case I wasn't clear, "Make It Happen" was not just released on CD singles, so the other formats previously listed need to be covered in this article. In fact, the tracklist for the "worldwide CD single" references the 7" single liner notes...

*When I think of a singer-songwriter, I think of someone like Bob Dylan. Which reliable sources have called Carey a singer-songwriter? (Whatever examples you come up don't need to be added to the page as citations, by the way. But if you can't come up with any, let's just call her a singer.)
 * Yes indeed. Since you aren't a fan, you might not be aware, but Carey is indeed a singer-songwriter, she has written 17 of her 18 US #1 singles, and produces all her own material. Here are some very reputable sources that demonstrate. here is a link to an official Billboard post about the songwriters with the most #1s, Los Angles Times etc. The list goes on forever.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I am aware she (co-)writes and sings her own songs. I don't believe those are the only criteria for being called a "singer-songwriter".  That's why I want you to show me examples of reliable sources' using the term to describe her.
 * I have provided a Billboard source that calls her a song-writer, and Los Angeles Times, MTV News and The Miami Herald all refer to her as a singer-songwriter. I think these four are enough.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   22:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

*I mentioned something similar in round one and that's still an open concern, but that music video caption seems to be entirely original research.
 * I've tried to address this. Please check now.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Almost there, but what kind of "orientation"? Religious, sexual, compass?


 * Much of the "Live performances" section looks like fancruft to me. How does knowledge of what she was wearing at each performance for which we have reliable information further our understanding of the song?  How does knowledge of who directed or mixed her MTV Unplugged performance further our understanding of the song?  Etc.
 * I see where you are coming from, but fancruft? I'm not sure about that. I all my GAs I have never encountered an issue because of clothing detail and details over the performance. If its really an issue, I can trim it a bit for you.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You may not be able to see it because you're a fan, but I'm confident it's fancruft. I invite you to prove otherwise by answering my original questions.
 * I am listing details of the live performances. These are things that are found throughout several GA/FA. You can't just have a list "Carey performed it on, on, on" it needs to be encyclopedic. I am trimming off some now, but bare with me.--CallMe Nathan  &bull; [[User talk:Petergriffin9901|Talk2Me ]] 22:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A list of performances may not be encyclopedic on its own, but supplementing the list with wardrobe details doesn't make it so, either. Details about what made the performances noteworthy are helpful; so are critics' comments.  We can discuss this in greater detail if necessary after the copy edit.

 Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 19:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Round three  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 02:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought the copy edit the article received from the Guild was decent, but still left redundancies, so I took it upon myself to give it a further copy edit. Let me know if you disagree with any of the changes.
 * Discogs is not a reliable site, so you can remove those references. Both of the US maxi CD singles reference the same page though they have slightly different track listings.  I'd suggest cross referencing the Discog pages with EIL's page (which is not exhaustive) and any other Carey discography source you might know of, just to make sure the info is accurate.  References probably aren't needed.  Also, consider combining entries where the track listings are the same. ''A further recommendation based on a perusal of the EIL list: only include US and UK releases unless other countries' versions are substantially different in track listing.
 * "At the VH1 Divas taping in 1998, Carey was the opening performer of the event, and after 'My All', her single at the time, she made a brief speech to the audience and performed 'Make It Happen'." – Tell us what was interesting and relevant about the speech or don't mention it at all.
 * The last photograph is also used at Music Box (album), where it is claimed that Carey is shown performing "Hero". Which is correct?
 * Columbia's "pressure" and "strong promotional boost" needs a citation.
 * [Comments copied from my talk page]:
 * Thanks for your copy-edit. I don't disagree with your changes, but I find you deflate the prose a bit too much, making it read like "lifeless prose". I don't mind though, if you feel its best this way, then okay. I appreciate the time you put into the c/e :) Anyways, I believe I took care of round three as well, so please check back again :D-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me  02:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What you call lifeless I call "clear and concise" and nearly FAC-ready. When we're done here this article will be as close as you will have come to a featured article.  After a peer review and perhaps another GOCE copy edit, I would encourage you to nominate it.
 * The two US maxi CD singles reference the same catalog number. I suspect one of them doesn't exist and the error was carried over from Discogs.  Also, the term "liner notes", used in the cite music release notes template, refers to the inner sleeves of vinyl records and the inserts in CDs if they're not multiple pages stapled together.  Take a look at the template page for suggestions to use in the format parameter.
 * The single cover shown seems to be one of the UK releases? I think it's recommended to use the cover from the most common format at the time of release from the country with which the artist is most closely associated.  Tell me which one that is – I'm thinking the US CD single – and I'll find a good-quality replacement image.


 * This is the one I am familiar with. From what I know, this is the primary one used, whether US or UK. Also, I hope you didn't take offense to the 'lifeless' thing, it was just a form of speech, I really do appreciate the c/e!-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   21:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I just learned that there was a plagiarism lawsuit brought against Carey over this song. That needs to be discussed in the article.


 * I have searched and have not found a source. I would be happy to include it. Do you have a source in mind?-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   21:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You say the song "generally" received positive reviews, but all the reviews discussed are positive. Based on a Factiva search, your phrasing is accurate, so please include a negative/mixed review.


 * Well, its not like I only include the positive reviews. I try to include all or as many as I could find, which being that this is not one of her more popular and old, wasn't very many. Again, is there one on specific you are referring to?-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   21:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 *  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 17:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Round four  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 02:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Reference 8a doesn't support the statement ("jazzy undertones")
 * Reference 48 doesn't support the value of her shoes
 * You have yet to incorporate the "so-so" review I sent you Pardon me, I'm blind.  Two Hearted River  ( paddle  /  fish ) 04:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The references for the tracklistings all refer to "liner notes", but that term tends to mean vinyl inner sleeves, CD booklets, or slimline CD single inserts. There are more accurate terms available for some of the entries.  (You overlooked this in round three.)
 * There are two US CD single entries, with slightly different tracklistings, but both reference the same release. I believe one of them doesn't exist.  (You overlooked this in round three.)
 * The copyright lawsuit should be mentioned in the lead.


 * I honestly didn't see how to incorporate this so-so review. There isn't anything to add. Also, I have a balance now, there isn't a need to add every review out there. Lastly, I do not understand this track-listings thing. Thats how I've always seen it and done it.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   04:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll get to those refs shortly, but I still don't see that whole liner note thing. Can you explain/help regarding this other format of which you speak.-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   17:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Vinyl singles typically come in a sleeve with no inner (or maybe a plain white one). The information is printed on the back cover, so in the 'format' parameter of the template you'd write "Vinyl back cover".  (This is mentioned in the documentation.)  I assume you're in a better position than I to figure out the rest.  Two Hearted River  ( paddle  /  fish ) 17:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know, you've been pretty all knowing lately :P You sure you don't have a copy of Glitter somewhere at home? ;) I'll get to that stuff shortly. Admit it, I cheer you up a bit :)-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Done all-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   12:22, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * One last thing, and then we're done. Per WP:CLAIM, you need to replace two instances of the word 'claim', as the reader may infer doubt where none is warranted.  (There are four instances of the word in the text.  I'm talking about the first one and the last one.)  Let me know when this is done and I'll promote the article.  Two Hearted River  ( paddle  /  fish ) 01:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Done-- CallMe Nathan  &bull;  Talk2Me   07:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Passed – Get a peer review from outside your circle of friends and then you can probably nominate for FA.  Two Hearted River  ( paddle /  fish ) 11:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)