Talk:Maleševo-Pirin dialect

Words of the Dialect
Are there any specific regional words used in this dialect? PMK1 (talk) 09:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Reworked
I've reworked the article a bit, especially the intro. Worded the differences between Bg/Mak less as a dichotomy of facts and more as a difference of perspectives, which it is. I've also reinserted the map. Sure, it's sort of one-sided by explicitly adopting the one perspective rather than the other, but that can be handled by the caption; it's the best we have, and it's the only thing that we can currently show the outside reader to give them an idea of where this f...ing thing lies. Feel free to make a second map showing it also in the context of the Bulgarian dialect divisions. Calls to change the map are misguided, I think, because this map does actually reflect its sources correctly. Yes, the sources do classify the Blagoevgrad parts as part of Macedonian, like it or not, that is one notable viewpoint, so we have no business simple to deny it, as VMORO has tried to do. Apart from that, there was quite a bit of decent material in the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * POV pushing - see section below.

Factual Misrepresentation, Misleading Statements, POV Pushing, Deletion of References
1) Factual misrepresentation - you claim "the Bulgarians view the eastern part of the dialect as Bulgarian whereas the Macedonians view the whole dialect as Macedonian", let me remind you:
 * a) Bulgarians view all Macedonian dialects no matter where (in BG, RoM, GR) as Bulgarian dialects
 * b) Macedonians view all Macedonian dialects as Macedonian. Factual error.

2) Deletion of intenational references - Trudgill and Schmieger (evidently because you don't like them). POV Pushing

3) The current international opinion is that the border between BG and MK runs along the border (the two references above) - which replaces the cold-war view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Macedonian - and which in turn replaces the pre-WW2 view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Bulgarian. VMORO 17:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Still reverting without responding and deleting references (you have accepted) without explanation? VMORO 01:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't you think it is a bit saucy to claim (when you revert) that I have "not answered" to you on the talk page when you have not written anything on it??? VMORO 13:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please look up the word "saucy". Once you do, you'll see it refers to concept like this, not whatever you're trying to say.  Balkan Fever  13:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I decided to drop out of this discussion, but your sarcasm really starts to bother me. Please, refer from such edits, ok? Enough is enough. You've mocked every single editor you possibly didn't like, and every single anonymous contributor. Don't you think it's time to stop? -- L a v e o l  T 13:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, I didn't choose to be hilarious, ok?  Balkan Fever  13:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't. You're acting sarcastically both on the talkpage and in your edit comments. I see you don't have anything constructive to add to the page currently and it seems more and more obvious you're just trying to annoy VMORO. I'm not saying his edits are justified or not, but I just notice his remarks have some sense in them and you just mock him, ok? -- L a v e o l  T 14:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Saucy means impudent:-) And it refers to your friend Fut.Sun or whatever he is called. VMORO 13:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

MAP and other POV irredentist pushing
This is indeed the last time I ask you politely to remove and correct the map (not only from this page but from all pages) and to stop pushing disguised POV by "viewed from Macedonian perspective" and the like. Let me remind you because you seem to forget:
 * 1) Before WW2, all Slavic dialects in Macedonia were generally classified as Bulgarian.
 * 2) In the cold-war period (mostly through Friedman's work), all Slavic dialects in Macedonia were generally classified as Macedonian - although this did not apply to the Soviet Union, for example.
 * 3) Now, as profusely referenced, the Slavic dialects in Pirin Macedonia are generally classified as Bulgarian whereas the Slavic dialects in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia are classified as Macedonian. Do not try to push Friedman as an opposite example because he has been working on the topic since the late sixties, however, his cold war theses have fallen into disregard these days - as seen in the references. And I can quote you French Larousse which called Macedonian a dialect of Bulgarian in 2005.
 * 4) Bulgaria continues to claim all Slavic dialects in Macedonia as Bulgarian. Stop misrepresenting the Bulgarian position as you did in the intro of this article.
 * 5) RoM continues to claim all Slavic dialects in Macedonia as Macedonian

Considering the above, we will either follow NPOV and will regard the dialects in Pirin Macedonia as Bulgarian and in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia as Macedonian, which means:
 * 1) The map will be corrected to exclude Pirin Macedonia
 * 2) The Serres-Nevrokop and Maleshevo-Pirin articles will be split into the respective Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects.
 * 3) There will be information about the respective countries' claims but without POV pushing.

OR We can continue pushing POV but this time it will not be only who will be pushing it, it will also be me. If you, based on Macedonian claims and Friedman's cold-war theses can publish maps and call internationally recognized Bulgarian dialects disputed, then I, based on Bulgarian claims, pre-WW2 conceptions and other information like Larousse's for example, can do the same. This will mean:
 * 1) A corresponding map of Bulgarian dialects will be created to include all dialects in RoM and Greek Macedonia.
 * 2) This map will be placed in all articles regarding Slavic dialects in Macedonia.
 * 3) All these articles will be re-worked to reflect Bulgarian claims.
 * 4) The template Bulgarian dialects will be added under all of these articles.

I prefer compromise (because it means less work for me) but I can live with the other option, as well. Irredentism may seem like a fun game to play but it is actually very dangerous and the rocks you throw at others most often hit your own head. Contact me on my talk page if you need more info. I am travelling until Thursday so I probably won't reply until then but I will start re-working all articles on Friday. VMORO 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Threatening to start POV-pushing in response to what you think is POV-pushing is the surest way of getting yourself topic-banned. That said, of course you are more than welcome to create a map showing the transitional dialects in their Bulgarian context, if there are such maps published in reliable international linguistic publications. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Since your map is in English, it does not make it a "reliable international linguistic publication". Our map will be in English, too:-)) If this is the only thing you can reply, okay, I will start as soon as possible with what I promised VMORO 00:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So if I get this right - we're relying this POV map (or single-POV map that is) only cause it was published in one 'scientific' book in English? And it is definitely clear and NPOV cause it's in English? BTW did you look at the stuff Lantonov wrote on your talkpage on the case? -- L a v e o l  T 21:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean Lantonov's Stoykov material? No problem with me; if that guy is some kind of authority on Bulgarian dialectology, why not. Do we have material from him that is mappable? There's that Bulgarian dialect atlas, apparently. What about the "Bulgarian" chapters in one or other of the anglophone "Slavic languages" handbooks that have been quoted so often here, wasn't that based on Stoykov too? I can't promise I'll myself be available for doing the graphics though, any time soon. Have fun learning Inkscape :-P Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried and dropped it in 2 or 3 days :) Well, the quoted book is on limited preview on google books as far as I remember which is truly a shame. Stoykov is certainly mappable, there might even be maps based on him - I'll check on this. -- L a v e o l  T 22:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I must be stupid or something, since I see the word BULGARIAN pasted across Pirin. Could somebody please explain what that word means? Not sure, but I think it's classifying Pirin, as opposed to Maleševo, as Bulgarian. I'm probably wrong though, since I'm nowhere near as smart or neutral as user:VMORO. I should probably kill myself since I'll never be a great pure Bulgarian like him, and I don't exist anyway.  Balkan Fever  04:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no need for irony and sarcasm, the Macedonian POV map has no place on "shared dialects" pages or anywhere on Wikipedia for that matter, since there is no scientific consensus as to the belonging of dialects in Greece or Albania to the "Macedonian language", and talking about "dialects of Macedonian" in Bulgaria is like talking about dialects of Korean in Blagoevgrad Province: it's making up fiction. It's hard for me not to burst out laughing when talking about a Macedonian language, but I'm trying to be serious: if the people in RoM like to classify their language as a "Macedonian language" and their dialect as a "Macedonian dialect", then that's not entirely true for the Slavic-speaking population of Albania, Greece and most certainly not Bulgaria. Now, if you want to make a map of the Slavic dialect continuum in the region of Macedonia (locally called "Bulgarian", "Macedonian", "Slavic", "our language", etc.), name it so. The current usage and naming of the map is POV and unacceptable. And so is the reliance on Macedonian sources without reflecting more popular views. Keep the "Macedonian" text in the Republic of Macedonia, this name has no widespread usage outside of it, and currently it seems to signify that this name is used in Greece and Bulgaria, which it isn't. The local Slavic language is only sometimes called "Macedonian" in Albania and that's a political case which has little to do with linguistics. Todor→Bozhinov 15:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:V. Period. This is what the literature says. Your rant above, on the other hand, has outed you once and for all as a disruptive tendentious POV-pusher, your opinions will never again need to be taken seriously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I regret to see you got carried away with personal qualifications. Not conforming to WP:NPOV is one thing (it happens often and sometimes even by accident), but breaking WP:NPA is much, much different, especially done by an administrator; I am offended and demand an apology. I have never been involved in POV-pushing, and do not intend to be, I have proven that many times with my actions and contributions. But in order to preserve the NPOV, "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" must be represented, and your map definitely does not conform to this: on the contrary, it relies solely on sources that support the Republic of Macedonia point of view.
 * I hope you understand that the name a language is called is not a matter of linguistics in this context (there is obviously a continuum separated only by state borders and ethnic consciousness), it is a political matter. Referring to the Slavic dialects of parts of Albania, Greece and Bulgaria as "dialects of Macedonian" is wrong for one single reason: this is not the name commonly given to those dialects outside of the Republic of Macedonia.
 * You say WP:V and end there. Have you checked all the reliable sources available? What is reliable to you? Because a book is in English, you consider it reliable? I'm sorry, but the sources cited for the map are all partially Macedonian: one of the contributors to the Polish dictionary is a Macedonian, and the other book in turn cites a Macedonian dictionary published in Skopje. Those are not reliable sources because they are not uninvolved with either side.
 * I will not continue this discussion unless I am assured that I will not be groundlessly insulted anymore. Todor→Bozhinov 18:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this was certainly not right. For some reason you have ignored all BlakanFever's sarcasm and the way he treats everybody and you go on accusing a decent contributor to be tons of stuff. I have to ask you - in this situation are you an admin or an editor? Cause this was certainly not the right tone for an editor, and what to say about an admin. I've stayed out of this discussion so not to get in conflict again until I saw BalkanFever's comments. I really can't believe you didn't take a look in what VMORO, Lantonov and Bozhinov wrote before bursting into this. And in case you call my words 'rants' again, I suggest you read the above section. -- L a v e o l  T 21:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take the blatant POV pushing by VMORO seriously. I don't feel the need to address anything that he wrote, because it's all bullshit. And before you accuse me of being uncivil, Laveol, think about it. He falsified sources. He thinks he's 100% neutral. He has vowed to keep pushing this Bulgarian fringe view, and has recruited this guy Bozhinov now. You could complain about "incivility" from me, but what VMORO has been doing is far worse. Stop trying to spin this.  Balkan Fever  12:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And it's you that has done nothing on this talkpage besides making sarcastic remarks about other editors. Don't you think you crossed the line this time? -- L a v e o l  T 13:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You did exactly what you did just before. Stop spinning it, Laveol. There is nothing at all on this talk page to talk about. It's just a bunch of POV-pushers trying to add their favourite fringe view to an article. I discuss things if they can actually be discussed. What you want is for me to agree with you (and VMORO/Bozhinov), not discussion.  Balkan Fever  13:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have not seen any discussion from you BalkanFever, you have several questions you have not even tried to respond to: 1. Why have the three international references been erased 2. Why do you make unsupported claims - see previous section. You are vandalizing the article and there will be a response to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.16.62.226 (talk) 23:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Does anyone here know the meaning of "consensus"? If you don't, stop bloody saying it! Köbra | Könverse 13:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"Falsification of sources"
Sussex & Cubblerley (see ref. in doc.):


 * page 508: The dialects of Macedonia are divided conventionally into an eastern (E-Mac)and a western (W-Mac) group, the boundary roughly following a SSW–NNE line along the Rivers Vardar and Crna. There are about half a million speakers in each area, with somewhat over 300,000 in the dialectally mixed capital, Skopje. The national language, which was formally established only in 1944–1945, reflects central western dialects (WC-Mac) in the area of Bitola, rather than those of Ohrid in the south-west. Some analyses also propose a northern dialect, situated between Skopje and the border, as a transition to Serbian (NE-Mac).


 * page 510: Bulgarian dialects are conventionally divided by the north–south so-called ‘‘jat-line’’, named after the reflexes of PSl /eˇ /. This line runs south from Nikopol through Pleven to Etropole and Pazardzˇ ik, and then moves west and then south in an arc. The west–east divide follows approximately a horizontal line across Bulgaria through Pazardzˇ ik. The four unequal quadrants are therefore: (1) the Pirin dialects in the south-west, which are transitional to Macedonian (SW-Blg); (2) the north-western dialects...


 * page 513: Transitional dialects occur in south-west Bulgarian to eastern Macedonian (with considerable overlap) and in north-west Bulgarian to the Torlak dialects of Serbian (figure 10.1).

You yourself have agreed with Trudgill and Schmieger. Who is lying and who is falsifying and making things up:-)) It ain't me, that's certain:-))) I demand an explanation about the erasal of references. VMORO 23:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)