Talk:Malvern, Worcestershire/Archive 3

Research
Coincidentally, several non-scientists with Malvern connections have expressed interest to me recently in seeing a "popular" comment about what TRE and RRE did. Hence present expansion, based on information I have put into the TRE and RRE articles. Everything is verifiable, just cannot put in references tonight -- hope this can be avoided by referring to TRE and RRE articles. I will modify notable people list tomorrow, if present change acceptable, to take out people in TRE and RRE articles (would put note "see also people named in TRE and RRE articles) except Philip Woodward whose horology work should stay here Michael P. Barnett (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC).

Just deleted people listed in TRE, RRE, QinetiQ. Do not know why double space above heading Notable people so cannot fix it. Also, do not understand what I did wrong with ISBNs that needed fix, but if someone explains I won't do it again. Thanks. 71.225.48.166 (talk) 12:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

An appeal to editors to  be careful
This article is a Wikipedia Good Article. If you don't know what that  is, please follow the link. Some recent edits and/or additions have attracted maintenance templates that  claim  some parts of this article are insufficiently referenced or unsourced. Sourcing is one of the fundamental policies of Wikipedia, a lot of hard work  by  a small, dedicated team went  into getting this article up  to  GA, and it  has recently  been suggested by  an admin that it is close to Featured Article. None of us claim ownership of this article, and while simple recasting of any existing prose at this stage is not necessary, we do of course welcome all and any constructive, properly referenced new material that improves the article further.

However, large, ugly tags for serious issues such as lack of sources are not wanted. Some editors 'drive by' articles and do not  hesitate to flag the work of others without providing any talk page indications as to  what they found offensive. Any other editor on seeing such  a tag can demote this article from  GA in  one mouse click.

Please bear these points in mind when adding new material, and above all  when coming  across any  parts of the article that might not fully  comply  with GA standards.

Thank you, and happy editing! --Kudpung (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Kudpung. Wise words. Bmcln1 (talk) 15:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I just put in verifiability of Elgar Auden Attwood Crump and lost these because of edit conflict. My fault. But will redo later. Please do not take them out yet. For Annie Darwin, here is reference to gravestone [[Image:Headstone of Anne Elizabeth Darwin.jpg|thumb|right|Annie's grave in [[Great Malvern]]]] but do not know how to use this. However, school Auden taught at is in Herefordshire.
 * Michael P. Barnett (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC).


 * The Notable people section is one that needs to be carefully considered ahead of any possible FA attempt and also to maintain an article's GA status. Retain the list in this article or select a few really notable people and recast the section into prose, with a sub-article creating for a fuller list. Some would go further and just have a link to a sub-article. Whichever way is chosen there needs to be at least one reference for each entry giving their connection to Malvern. Keith D (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think we need a source for Annie's grave Michael. The grave is there for anyone to see. It would be like insisting on a source for saying 'the sky is blue'. There's an essay about this kind of sourcing somewhere but I can't remember where. If we need photos of anything in Malvern urgently my Dad will take them, he's 91, but a dab hand with a digital camera - after all, he was one of the leading scientists at RRE. I'll be back there to for several weeks in April. BTW: The curator of Malvern Museum is a family friend. Kudpung (talk) 17:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I put in some of the people in the notables list because their pictures are in photographic history I cite. Don't want to presume on area of probable extensive guideline and established practice, but if allowable is following possible way to avoid list being too long. The first two sentences were there before I started to add. I put in the third sentence, and I think it flows from these. How about something like: "Princess Alice, later Duchess of Gloucester, and many other people who are discussed in separate articles are linked from St. James School, Malvern College, [any other schools that need mention] . Horticulturists include [actual names as links] . People who came to practice hydrotherapy, or for cures, included [actual names as links] . And so on. This would make material more compact, and more structured. But do not know if stylistically ok. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 19:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Three comments.
 * 1) This is a nice article - congratulations to all on the work done so far.
 * 2) It is not wise to label edits as "drive-by" or remove tags as "ugly", nor is it wise to be defensive about the GA status of an article. I sympathise with the last, as I understand the angst of having a deservedly won achievement taken away. However, the suggestion that "Any other editor on seeing such  a tag can demote this article from GA in one mouse click", if true, would render the GA process something of a travesty and not really an achievement worth having after all. Any reassessment of an article's GA status should be conducted in a proper, accountable fashion: if it isn't, community GAR is available for redress. Further, if the article loses GA status in the future, it will be much easier to regain than it was at the first hurdle, because, thanks to all your efforts, and a thorough GAN review by Dana boomer, this article is built on rock, not sand. To summarize all of which: relax :)
 * 3) As for the question of Notable People, the list in the present article is not sustainable. The connections vary enormously in their nature and significance – both to Malvern and to the people concerned. For example, why is it a big deal that Auden taught for just 3 years here? A list would organise the notables by their relationships, e.g. to Malvern College, the RRE, etc. In a mature article on a significant town, these are details which most readers will only want summarized. The argument that readers won't browse the list unless it is included is already grounds for moving it out. Once an article gets this good, the main challenge is to keep it focussed and avoid it becoming unreadably large. Geometry guy 23:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I will act on this for people I put in, but cannot until later this week. Hope that is soon enough. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 16:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Just noticed the citations needed. All except count of books covered by references to Reg Jones Wizard War and the Cold War Hot Science book. Is there some way to project relevance of book to entirety of paragraph, or does reference have to be given repeatedly? The number of books can be seen from list of references plus 30 books by one author in TRE article. If this is original research or synthesis should I just miss it out? Seems pity. But cannot deal with this for few days. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If a source supports a whole paragraph, it is normally necessary to mention it only once, either at the start or at the end of said paragraph. Some people list it twice (after the first and last sentences).  If you're particularly worried about it, you can leave a  at the end of the paragraph that will explain the situation to anyone who might be spamming fact tags into the paragraph.  (By "normally", I mean primarily that direct quotations always receive an inline citation, and of course you must use your best judgment about the value of redundant citations if significant WP:BLP issues appear in the middle of the paragraph.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I provided a citation for each specific technical development (without lengthening the article by more than five lines of bibliography) that is much more specific than the two books I mentioned. I made the paragraph about numbers of knights etcetera a hidden comment. I wrote it by going through the information about people listed in the TRE and RRE articles and counting. Is it ok to try to feed the summary, with references to justify it, to someone in Malvern, to get an article into the Malvern Gazette or some other publication, under someone else's name, that can then be quoted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael P. Barnett (talk • contribs) 14:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder if that would be a WP:CIRCULAR problem. If the person were a proper expert on the subject, it would probably be okay, though.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I would provide a list of people, with impeccable references that verified their honours (e.g. Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society, obituaries in Guardian) to someone who writes about Malvern and is a responsible checker of references.

Malvern Priory
Thanks. I started to post comment twice but had edit conflicts. I do NOT want to be arbiter of who should be left out. Also, improved verifiability of Woodward seems to have got muddled in earlier edit conflict but hope ok now. Will hold off more verifying until list has been filleted. Please could Kudpung ask Museum Curator if what is now called Malvern Priory is coextensive with what is called Malvern Priory Church -- people want more about buildings, Pevsner's book helps but is unclear on this. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 17:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Great Malvern Priory Church of Saint Mary and Saint Michael, to give it its full name, is the church part of the abbey, and is all that remains of the abbey since the dissolution (except the gateway that now houses Malvern Museum). 'The Priory' as it is known locally is the parish church of the area known as Great Malvern, the traditional town centre of the Malverns, and has its own Wikipedia article. --Kudpung (talk) 13:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ThanksMichael P. Barnett (talk) 19:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

FDR

 * The links made to English Heritage's blue plaque scheme here are spurious, as English heritage only manages blue plaques for London.

See: Blue plaque. --Kudpung (talk) 22:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately for readers, these criteria are uncited, and provide no information about why the visit was significant. Many famous people have visited Malvern: do we mention Franklin D. simply because there is a plaque? Wikipedia is not Lonely Planet: if the visit, rather than the plaque, was significant, there will be RSS which say so, and our readers deserve to be told. Geometry guy 01:10, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is not about blue plaques any more than Annie Darwins grave is about gravestones. I know that someone will quote 'Other stuff exists' but a great many Wikipedia articles have lists of 'notable' people who have even less to do with the school or town. Based on that premise, FDR's visit was pretty important for a hick  town like Malvern, and probably pretty important for him too - or is FDR not important? I'm  all  for cutting  this notable people list  down, in fact  I never understood the encyclopedic value of such  a section. Should we remove the list of people from the Blue plaque article too? Kudpung (talk) 07:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll just add that as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa. FDR might be famous, but fame alone is not sufficient for WP:BIO. I have no allegiance to the USA, but I would imagine FDR to be a truly notable person, and as such, his presence on this list to be one of the more important entries Kudpung (talk) 12:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I entirely agree that this article is not about blue plaques. I also entirely agree that Franklin D. Roosevelt is a very important historical figure. However, beyond coming from a wealthy American family, and being distantly related to Theodore Roosevelt, he was not particularly notable at age 7. I see no evidence that his visit was either notable to him or to Malvern at the time. Without reliable secondary sources as to why he visited, when, and for how long, speculations about the reasons and nature of his visit are nothing more than speculations. You clearly have a view on this: please provide sources which support it. I have found nothing which supports the assertion that he was shipped across the Atlantic because of Malvern's reputation as a health spa. What was his ailment, anyway?
 * The blue plaque is a source for very little: English Heritage confirmed that he visited (and there are other sources for this), presumably for a fee, and hence authorized the Aldwyn Tower Hotel to display the plaque. This shows at most that FDRs visit has become notable as a means of tourist advertising, e.g., for Aldwyn Tower Hotel, which is not, on its own, encyclopedic content.
 * As for notable people in general, I have already commented above, and will comment further below. Geometry guy 00:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Alwyn Tower hasn't been a hotel since pre WWII days or even earlier, it has been converted into flats, mainly  students etc. I spent  much  of my  early  childhood in  St Werstans, a large rambling 19th century pile almost  directly  opposite it. Someone bought  a couple of the flats and did them up to  rent them as holiday  accommodation. The building  is now a co-ownership as is any  modern  condo. Nobody  gains anything  from  having  a plaque about  FDR  on  the wall. I strongly  refute the allegations that  English Heritage has taken  money for  allowing the placement  of a blue plaque. You  obviously  have a very strong personal opinion  about  blue plaques, but  with  all  due respect, I  don't  think  this is the venue for a discussion  about  it. Kudpung (talk) 10:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I am surprised you think you know my personal opinions when we have never met. In fact, I am completely indifferent to blue plaques, know next to nothing about them. (I have struck some of my above remarks and apologize for any offence taken.) Instead, you appear to be focusing on blue plaques, whereas I would rather talk about FDR's visit and what reliable sources there are which discuss it.
 * In this vein, I see you have found a BBC Midlands walking article which notes "look to your right and you'll see the lodging house where President Franklin D Roosevelt stayed as a boy." That is progress at least, but isn't exactly an ideal source, and the article states instead "[FDR] stayed at the Aldwyn Tower Hotel while convalescing from an illness at the age of 7".
 * However, it is pretty difficult to find anything substantial which is not tourist advertising. An example of the latter would be http://www.greatmalvernholidays.co.uk, which states "Aldwyn Tower was originally built as a grand spa-type hotel. One of its most famous guests was Franklin D Roosevelt (the 31st President of the U.S.A) who, in 1889 aged 7 years, was sent to Malvern to convalesce after suffering from tuberculosis." While we clearly have independent sources for the visit, I haven't found biographies which mention it, or serious childhood illness.
 * Now, you state above that "as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa," which is much more informative, so I repeat my unanswered question: do you have a reliable source for this? Geometry guy 21:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, in relation to this discourse: "Roosevelt childhood passed in a silver spoon atmosphere and he enjoyed frequent trips to many European countries of Europe that made his vision broader and exposed him to the outer world." . And for reinforcement of hardship of transatlantic travel for the wealthy, see e.g. RMS Mauretania (1906)   And as regards tuberculosis, his diseases listed in a web site for presidential diseases  were polio, hypertension, hemorrhoids, anemia, melanoma (?), anorexia, weight loss, indigestion, sebaceous cyst, atherosclerosis, cardiomyopathy, angina, cholecystitis, cerebral hemorrhage  which gives quite a selection to have been convalescing from, but not TB. For more scholarly information, several articles on FDRs health problems are listed on National Library of Medicine site  -- TB does not jump out of the titles, but of course the fact that medical biographers have not focused on TB does not verify he never had it.  Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

General

 * Re general matter of length of notables list, I moved a sixth of the list to paragraphs on music and on agriculture that I extended to agriculture and horticulture. Some of the others are already mentioned in body of article in connection with hydrotherapy. Several more could be mentioned under Schools. Who should move them, if doing so would help? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:30, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Anyone (autoconfirmed users) can edit any article. One can be WP:BOLD, but bigger edits might be best discussed. I'm  not quite sure if moving notable students to  the schools section  is the best  solution. IMO the schools section is generally  about  education  in  the settlement and not  quite the same thing as the people who  attended the schools. And interesting  exercise would be to  visit the alumni  section of the Malvern College page, then also  the List of Old Malvernians - all  those notable people would be associated with  Malvern! --Kudpung (talk) 13:08, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Cher Lloyd - I've added a ref taken from the X-Factor page, but as a non winner, and only  an up-coming  singer, she would probably  not  pass WP:BAND for a stand-alone page. I personally  do  not  believe that  contestants (non winners especially) in  TV  shows are necessarily  notable, but  I'm not sure what  our policy is on  this. I would tend to err on the side of caution and remove from the list on the premise that sources, however many there are, only confirm notability and do not confer it. Kudpung (talk) 12:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

W. H. Auden - removed from  list. Although the village of Colwall  is a contiguous part of the Malvern agglomeration, it is not part of the local government town or district, and is in another county. Kudpung (talk) 12:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * And excluding the Downs School precludes mention of Sanger: "Malvern Gazette, February 11, 1985. Dr Frederick Sanger, who has become a member of the elite Order of Merit, is a former pupil of the Downs School, Colwall. Double Nobel Prize winner for chemistry was one of three new members announced on Tuesday." Malvern Gazette 16 Feb 2011, Malvern Memories. Echoes from the past. Malvern Gazette Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, we exclude him, Michael. As is mentioned elsewhere on this page, the village of Colwall has got nothing to do with Malvern, even if the local paper covers it because it's so geographically close to the town. There is absolutely no reason however, why Colwall shouldn't have its own Notable People section. Kudpung (talk) 13:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Stand alone page for Notable people

 * My general advice, as noted previously, would be to create a separate List of people connected with Malvern (or something similar), in which there would be more freedom to elaborate on less significant connections. That would make it easier to write the Malvern article itself, which should remain focussed on the most significant connections. Geometry guy 00:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It was suggested a while back and did not achieve consensus. Kudpung (talk) 10:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Where and when? Thanks, Geometry guy 21:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It doesn't  matter where and when - anyone can start a poll. Feel free to launch one. You'll certainly  have my  support.Kudpung (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Polls are a last resort: Wikipedia is not a democracy; see WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BOLD (e.g. WP:BRD). Since you and I both support the creation of such a list, the question is, does anyone want to raise any objections already? Such a list can always be deleted later if it proves to be unhelpful. Geometry guy 23:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Music
I have removed this from  the music section: The Colwell and other brass bands of the early century and the bellringers of later years were part of the music of the town. I  don't  know where it came from, I'ver never heard of such  a claim,  and it's unreferenced. If somebody can find more info and/or a source, it  can of course go  back in. --Kudpung (talk) 14:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I put back the mention of brass bands with reference to photographic history -- can provide page numbers of several adequately captioned photos if necessary. The bell ringers were personal recollection. Am now in email dialogue with enough Malvern people to get references if the ringing really was reported (in due course). Michael P. Barnett (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The entry has other issues including no  mention  of which  century  is under discussion, and where these ringers and bands were hosted,  and the names of the bands. I  really  think it  should stay out until these and the issues of sources/notability have been resolved.Kudpung (talk) 10:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The following is just for information -- can be shortened for inclusion -- but not for me to say if it should go in.
 * Brass bands have been a part of the Malvern musical scene for over a century. Photographs dated c. 1906 and between 1910 and 1918 of the Colwell and an unnamed brass band are on pages 53 and 60 of the photographic history of Malvern. The Malvern Hills District Brass Band won two prizes at the ODBBA Entertainment Contest in Burford, in 2010, and has played at the Royal Albert Hall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.180.153 (talk • contribs) 05:19, 18 February 2011 sorry forgot to sign Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

"Came to be cured" citation
Would "came to the spa for hydrotherapy" take care of "citation needed". This gets round incompleteness of "to be cured" -- of what -- gout, melancholy, writer's block, insomnia? Also, it covers convalescence as well as being cured, which really are different. I agree strongly with GeometryGuy's analysis of why Roosevelt should be removed from notables list, and Roosevelt could be moved to Victorian Spa section -- can a case be verified that a 7 year old Roosevelt had such greater impact on Malvern than the adult Darwin, Dickens, Carlyle, Nightingale, Tennyson and Wilberforce, that he alone of these should be in notables. And Anne Darwin could be moved there, too. I will make the moves if no-one objects. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Apart from the thousands of day trippers who came from the dark satanic mills of Manchester and the Black Country to walk on the hills, they all came, with various ailments, to benefit from the alleged curative qualities of Malvern's water - which was all the place was famous for.


 * I don't think any of these people had any actual 'impact' on the town. In fact they were probably not even steeped in fame at the time. People who had impact were such as Gully who largely contributed to the development of Malvern as a famous Victorian spa town, and hence its sudden expansion from a hamlet sized group of houses around its priory, to a large town in the short space of less than half a century, as the article describes. In actual fact all those people who were connected with TRE/RRE never had any actual impact on he town either. We should probably remove C P Snow C. S. Lewis too, although by all accounts he did contribute to the turnover of the Unicorn.  Kudpung (talk) 14:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, I have not argued that "Roosevelt should be removed from notables list", merely that the list should be based on reliable sources. Notable people can be related to Malvern in multiple ways, their impact on Malvern and Malvern's impact on them being two obvious examples. However, we do not need to make up the rules: if a notable person has a significant connection with Malvern, then reliable sources will note it. Geometry guy 00:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Thousands of day trippers per day
Q: 5. if "thousands of day trippers came from Manchester" how did they get to and from Malvern in a day, and where is the verifiability

A: From the article, replete with sources: ''Following the completion of the Worcester & Hereford Railway, Great Malvern railway station opened on 25 May 1860, a Friday start to a weekend public holiday. It received a massive 10,000 passengers from all the newly opened stations on the line, and throughout June to September of that year day trips were frequent, filling the area with "the most curious specimens of the British shopkeeper and artisan on an outing". Following Malvern's new-found fame as a spa and area of natural beauty, and fully exploiting its new rail connections, factories from as far Manchester were organising day trips for their employees, often attracting as many as 5,000 visitors a day. In 1865, a public meeting of residents denounced the rising rail fares – by then twice that of other lines – that were exploiting the tourism industry, and demanded a limitation to the number of excursion trains. The arrival of the railway also enabled the delivery of coal in large quantities, which accelerated the area's popularity as a winter resort. ''

Kudpung (talk) 20:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, there is only one source used here.
 * British spas from 1815 to the present: a social history (by Phyllis May Hembry, Leonard W. Cowie, Evelyn Elizabeth Cowie).
 * This is the most cited source in the article, with 9 citations. I see nothing wrong with the source, and it has copious references. We should try to separate the citations and add page references. There are also some quotes within a quote which we should track down to their original source. I am, of course, willing to help out with this. Geometry guy 00:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The rise of independent schools in Malvern
As is clearly explained in  the article, the schools came after the drop in the town's popularity  as a spa. The schools came to take advantage of the floundering  hotel  buildings, some of which were the largest  and most  impressive in  the town, the town's excellent rail connections (one of which goes almost  right  into  one of those hotels), and the safe, rural,  small town environment. I do  not  think visits of parents  to  be pertinent  to  the article, and therefore the topic does not  need documenting.Kudpung (talk) 04:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Bottled water in 1622
The article states "Malvern is ... known for its bottled water since 1622". Does this imply that water was being bottled in Malvern in 1622 and, if so, what is the verifiability? According to "Bottle Bottles Bottling" "as early as 1767, the waters of Jackson's Spa in Boston were bottled and sold". None of the sources on the history of Malvern or technology I have at hand now mention bottling in the 17th century. Absent verifiability of the date at which bottling started in Malvern, should "bottled" be changed to "spring". Michael P. Barnett (talk) 12:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). --Kudpung (talk) 12:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

link for Elizabeth, Countess Harcourt
There are WK articles for her father-in-law, Simon Harcourt, 1st Earl Harcourt, her brother-in-law, the William Harcourt, 3rd Earl Harcourt, her father the Baron Vernon but not her husband, the 2nd Earl Harcourt. There is a painting in NPG and online of Elizabeth with her husband and his successor. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 20:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)Michael P. Barnett (talk) 20:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Verifiability of doctors and patients
Sentence about hydrotherapy patients needed change because of following in article cited re Dickens. "om March 15 he was in Malvern settling his wife into the care of Dr. James Wilson ...". So had to (1) change mention of Gully to mention of Wilson and Gully, (2) drop "famous", (3) include reference, (4) for consistency up to that point, put in reference for Darwin -- it reads "about two years out of this time was lost by illness. On this account I went in 1848 for some months to Malvern for hydropathic treatment ...". The Dickens item led to distinction of the two Wilson's in hydrotherapy article. Getting the verifiability for these two was useful. Should reference-needed template be put in for other patients? Michael P. Barnett (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Section breaks
Should the present "Victorian spa" be split into say "The beginnings of a spa", starting with the final paragraph at present under "Post dissolution" and breaking at about 1860, followed by "The flourishing and decline" or some other title. The building of the railroad could go at the end of the first, and its opening could start the second. If no comments for a couple of days will proceed along these lines. Presnt start of "Victorian spa" in 1757 bit premature. Would need to split a few sentences and rearrange but doable Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Michael. I think this would be a bad idea. The history sections sweep quite broad periods of history. I don't see a strong reason to split the 'spa' section into two pieces, as it's essentially all the same story. It's true that it does slightly predate the Victorian era - maybe a slight name change would help (something like 'development as a spa town')?


 * The section could do with some copy editing. As it stands, the first sentence doesn't say what the section is about, but assumes we already know. GyroMagician (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 0. Postscript to remarks that follow. I just got relevant part of Hembry book online. Hence resolution of item 4, given as new section.


 * 0.1 Post-postscript. Have resolved item 6 (Enclosure Act) -- see below.


 * 1. Using "Development of Malvern as a spa town", or some variant of this, would remove disparity between the 81 years from Wall's tract to Victoria's accession and the length of her reign. Could you make the change? I am unearthing considerable body of material, that I think is interesting, but feel it unWIKIlike to turn the process of incorporating it into a monologue. I will feel more comfortable proceeding piecemeal, to make sure successive items are concensual and can be seen to be concensual. Should the break from Post-dissolution then be with Wall or Banister (I use the DNB spelling of his name).


 * 2. Overshadowing present question is the material I have not put in yet that I have found. I moved the quotations-from-poems into the Literature subsection, and the paintings into a new subsection (for which I have enough more to justify this status) Developments in agriculture and horticulture in the late 19th century, that link to several people and other topics about which there are WK articles need a paragraph -- but that can go into present Agriculture section. Correspondingly with recent work on stained glass windows and archaeology. But the building of the railway, including the blasting of the tunnel, warrants a couple of lines. So do the antics of Lady Foley. And I can't see where to put these except in History. And I am concerned about limits on length of a section.


 * 3. The general question of social history has been raised in the article already by mention of railways, day trippers and conservation. To work out what is permissible within WK constraints, it helps me to think outside these briefly. Between 1750 and 1900, the Malvern population went from powerful aristocracy / landowning farmers / poorer farmers / agricultural labourers to aristocracy with substantial but terminal influence / urban rich villa owners / growing middle class / agricultural workers / non-agricultural workers (railways, quarries, breweries, bottlers). I have verifiability of this for rural England at large in standard texts, but do not know if applying generality to specific is unacceptable original thought or whatever, and do not want to get into a hassle.


 * 4-. Following resolved below under Opening of railway


 * 4. The present wording of the article suggests (to me) an overnight transition from a Malvern in which the only outsiders were hydrotherapy patients, to a Malvern indundated by day-tripping industrial workers, with the utilization of the railway continuing just for these and for school children. I can quote from accessible, responsible sources that many of the visitors to spa towns were vacationers without medical problems they sought to have cured, and I think I can get quotations supporting this for Malvern. Was there an implicit exclusion of the idea that the railway brought increased numbers of middle class (and aristocratic) vacationers? Does my mention of Baedeker and the entertainments help, and may I strengthen this with a few items from the Grindrod book?


 * 5. I do not know if Malvern social history was affected by the number of visitors who came for non-medical and non-vacation reasons. I assume the number was considerable -- for commercial and professional purposes (selling to people in the town, representing people in the town), relating to the school -- at least one prize day and one annual sports day were reported in the London Times. Even if it was, and this is WK verifiable, I do not know if it is worth pursuing. An underlying question is the extent to which a place like Malvern could have been a mixing place for ideas and inter-personal associations -- an elite mixing at a prize-giving etc. But this speculation is too close to OR for pursuit in the article. The idea that people visited Malvern because of the schools was squelched firmly a while back, so I kept my mention of Longfellow and Lord Randolph Churchill and Prince Christian and Princess Victoria to the Malvern College article -- I assumed I could mention the Teck's here the way I did.


 * 6-. Following clarified below under Enclosure Act


 * 6. What really puzzles me is the Enclosure Act. The article seems to me to suggest it was brought in to prevent the Hills being taken over by the hydrotherapists. I do not have the expertize to understand fully the wording of the 1884 Act. These suggest to me that it is ostensibly aimed at preserving natural beauty from encroachment for quarries. But there is a letter in the Times stating that it is not what it seems, and that its opposition will harm agricultural poor to benefit industrial poor! Followed by a letter that refutes the article, with allusions I do not understand. My trouble with blanket references to the Hembry book is that I do not have access to a complete copy (just partial online version), and I have found that careful reading of some other references that were given for verifiability of statements in articles are irrelevant or contain statements that are the opposite of what they are supposed to be the basis of. It would be nice to have page numbers, in case like this, and quotations (if only in the Discussion).


 * 7. I am sorry if I disturbed the easy flow of the article by my insertions. I tried to preserve the words that were there already, to avoid offense to their authors, but could only do this by the sort of non sequitur you mention. Maybe the best way forward is incrementally, with a third party removing redundancies and making changes needed for consistent style.


 * 8. Hope it is not presumptuous of me to pitch in to an article that has had so much thought and knowledge put in. Doing this from afar may make it look worse, but finding out what can be found out this far away is fascinating. Thanks Michael P. Barnett (talk) 18:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Opening of railway
Would anyone object to the following first mention of the railway?
 * The extension of the railway from Worcester to Malvern Link was completed on 25th May 1859. "Besides middle class visitors ... the railway also brought working class excursionists from the Black Country with dramatic effect ... At Whitsuntide the following year, 10,000 came from the Black Country to the newly opened stations at Great Malvern and Malvern Wells.

This would replace the following first mention:


 * Following the completion of the Worcester and Hereford Railway, Great Malvern railway station opened on 25 May 1860, a Friday start to a weekend public holiday. It received a massive 10,000 passengers from all the newly opened stations on the line.

A reader might conclude from the present article that trains first brought travelers to Malvern on 25 May 1860, and the town was transformed overnight from one in which the only outsiders were hydrotherapy patients, into a town that was indundated by day-tripping industrial workers who had boarded at all the newly opened stations on the lines from the Black Country. The events are described in more detail, using direct quotes from the two books, as follows:


 * "In 1858, finally, work began on the double line from Worcester to Malvern .. the final section to Malvern Link opened on 25 July 1859, worked by the Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton Company ... (in 1859) on 25th May the line was extended for 2 miles through Great Malvern to Malvern Wells." "Besides middle class visitors ... the railway also brought working class excursionists from the Black Country with dramatic effect. On the opening of the Great Malvern and Malvern Wells stations on Friday, May 25 1860, in time for the Whitsuntide holiday, the first 'holiday folk' came by train on Sunday" preceded by the stall holders who slept until 9 a.m. when "10,000 people came from the newly opened stations"

The references are to History of the Great Western Railway and to Hembry's book on spas, but they did not show up when I included Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems OK to me, as long  as we stick  to  date conventions through out  the articles, in  this case, for example 25 May 1784 (day/month/year, and no 'th'), and BE spelling, i.e. travelling, not  traveling. (WP:ENGVAR). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:49, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Enclosure Act
The display of the Hembry book is erratic, which may have led to a hiatus of content when read by earlier editors. The passages that I read last night, and quotations from the actual Act, provide verifiability of the following.


 * Local concern about the encroachment of scenic walks and views, by quarries and by the construction of residential and other buildings, led to the passage of the Malvern Hills Act of 1884,  with the hope that Malvern "could be the 'Metropolis of Hydrotherapy', giving pleasure to the rich and quiet recreation to the middle classes." This strengthened the ability of the Conservators to purchase land and to exercise control, except on the Foley estate.

This would replace the present passage, which is inconsistent with Gully having been a Conservator


 * Fearing that Malvern would become the "Metropolis of Hydrotherapy", a Malvern Hills Act had been secured in 1884 and later Acts empowered the Conservators to acquire land to prevent further encroachment on common land and by 1925 they had bought much of the manorial wastelands.

The sentence about later acts could be moved to 20th century for consistency with subsection headings. I can post the relevant passages that are on p. 193 of the Hembry book.

I would like to include page numbers when I reference books for verifiability but do not know the conventions. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * You should have a 'Cite' button in the tool bar of your edit window. It  gives a selection  of buttons for various templates for citations. If you  fill  in  the one for books, it  does it for you.   --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Copy editing the present "Victorian spa" section
I made a start and deleted the question I had posted here. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Post-dissolution -> From dissolution to modernity - social change 1600-1900
This change to title of section allows transfer of some material from present spa section and inclusion of more on several topics that are verifiable in very reliable sources. Should I go ahead with this, or post material her for alternative suggestions? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Malvern, like any article, even though  it  is a GA, is always open to  improvement. If your material  is relevant, and if your sources are solid, be bold and go  ahead with  your suggestion. I  know I  wrote most  of it, but  I  don't   claim ownership of it and I've pretty  much  left  off following  it  to  focus on  other work. If one day  it  becomes an FA candidate, any  imperfections will be ironed out (even if it means losing  some small items of content again), and I  think  I  speak for the community  when I  say  we have every  confidence in  your excellent  contributions to  it. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

BTW: When I mentioned WP:ENGVAR and MOS date use conventions, naturally  if you  are making  a verbatim quote from  a source, that  quote should naturally be true to  the original text. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Oxford :Dictionary of National Biography
A search of DNB using "Malvern" as free text key returned over 300 names that are relevant. I have cut and paste the displayed data onto my PC. There are WK articles about many of these. I would like to make the list available so other Editors can pick items they would like to incorporate. But I am not sure how much I need edit the material I retrieved, and where to post it (?in sub page of my User page) to avoid copyright problems and make it useful. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thepolicyis that if it  can't  be in  a Wikipedia article because of copyright  reasons, then it  shouldn't  be in any other Wikipedia space. If you  can find a way  of avoiding  copyright  infringements, such  as links to  the sources, or with  very  short, accredited excerpts from  the text, by  all means put them  here for discussion. See WP:COPYRIGHT first.--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Will put list giving name of person, vital dates, occupation here. Will it be better (1) one item per line or strung out to save space, (2) sequenced alphabetically or by year of birth or by year of death? Michael P. Barnett (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess alphabetical would be easiest to manage. Over 300 is a very long list. It's always difficult to decide who to include/exclude, and reasons for for doing so are complicated, but I don't think the list should be allowed to grow much longer than it already is. Maybe we need to be a bit stricter about people having a notable link to Malvern, rather than simply being notable themselves? For e.g. the Dyson-Perrins family have had a significant local impact, while Roosevelt simply visited for a while as a child. I have previously argued against a separate page for the list of notables, but maybe it's time to revisit that idea? GyroMagician (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a stopgap. I ran the search with date of birth as sequencing criterion, and edited down to present form for expediency. Cannot do more now, but will reorganize from fuller data into people who went to Malvern College and each of several other schools (maybe 30 or so), who were governors of College, who were born in Malvern, came for cure (perhaps 20 not mentioned in article yet, some wrote books about experience), died, were buried, lived for significant time, painted, studied local natural history etc in town. Far too many for inclusion, but will leave selection to others. I think Karl Marx and Thomas Hardy are reasonable candidates. !!! signifies article for person in WK, but I checked only intermittently -- there are probably many more. I tried to delete all the items mentioning other Malvern's. Deleted some mentioning just Festival, but maybe should keep them in reorganized list. Hope what I have done / am doing illustrates tactic that can be used for other towns, too. Evesham gave 283 names -- but I am not pursuing that. Also, this raises more general questions about using results of searches. For section on history of Malvern, I have done some Scopus and other searches that give extensive bibliographies. The medical aspects of water cures current topic of scholarly papers. Seems potentially useful to mention issues that are topics of ongoing publication, with recent reference. There seems to be many WK articles on legalisms. Are there articles on how to keep current, e.g. search tools, citation indexes and so on. Here is a full item returned by the search -- just one is not going to violate Copyright.

Nicoll, (John Ramsay) Allardyce (1894–1976), literary scholar...and a life trustee of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust. Allardyce Nicoll's favourite recreation was walking in the Malvern hills. He died at his home, Wind's Acre, Colwall, Herefordshire, near Malvern, on ...

Here is the edited list

Michael P. Barnett (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2011 (UTC) List sorted by Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Abbot, Charles (1761–1817), botanist and entomologist !!!
 * 2) Abbott, Evelyn (1843–1901), classical scholar
 * 3) Abercrombie, Lascelles (1881–1938), poet and literary critic
 * 4) Adams, Sir John Bertram (1920–1984), physicist and scientific administrator
 * 5) Aherne, (William) Brian de Lacy (1902–1986), actor..
 * 6) Alcock, John (1430–1500), administrator and bishop of Ely
 * 7) Alfonsi, Petrus (fl. 1106–1126), scholar and translator of scientific works
 * 8) Alice, Princess, duchess of Gloucester (1901–2004)
 * 9) Arlen, Michael [formerly Dikran Kouyoumdjian] (1895–1956), novelist
 * 10) Arnaud, Yvonne Germaine Jeanne (1890–1958), actress
 * 11) Arthur, prince of Wales (1486–1502)
 * 12) Aston, Francis William (1877–1945), physicist
 * 13) Attwood, Thomas (1783–1856), politician and currency theorist
 * 14) Austin, Henry Wilfred [Bunny] (1906–2000), tennis player and evangelist
 * 15) Bagnold, Ralph Alger (1896–1990), soldier and geomorphologist
 * 16) Ballard, Stephen (1804–1890), civil engineer !!! Herefordshire and Gloucestershire Canal
 * 17) Barnes, Frederick Jester (1885–1938), singer
 * 18) Barnes, Sir Hugh Shakespear (1853–1940), administrator in India and banker
 * 19) Bath, Adelard of (b. in or before 1080?, d. in or after 1150), scientist and translator
 * 20) Bathurst, Henry (bap. 1744, d. 1837), bishop of Norwich !!!
 * 21) Batsford, Henry George [Harry] (1880–1951), publisher and author
 * 22) Beauchamp, Walter (II) de (1192/3–1236), justice
 * 23) Beauman, (Archibald) Bentley (1888–1977), army officer
 * 24) Beddoes, Thomas Lovell (1803–1849), poet !!!
 * 25) Begg, Sir Varyl Cargill (1908–1995), naval officer
 * 26) Bell, John Stewart (1928–1990), theoretical physicist
 * 27) Bennett, Sir Ernest Nathaniel (1868–1947), politician and journalist
 * 28) Bennett, Sir John Wheeler Wheeler- (1902–1975), historian and expert on international affairs !!!
 * 29) Bent, (James) Theodore (1852–1897), traveller and antiquary
 * 30) Bernard, Edward (1638–1697), mathematician and Arabist !!!
 * 31) Beynon, Sir (William John) Granville (1914–1996), physicist
 * 32) Blake, Dame Louisa Brandreth Aldrich- (1865–1925),
 * 33) Blois, Eve ?
 * 34) Blois, William de (d. 1236), bishop of Worcester
 * 35) Blomfield, Sir Arthur William (1829–1899), architect !!!
 * 36) Blunt, Alfred Walter Frank (1879–1957), bishop of Bradford (Malvern Conference)
 * 37) Bolton, John Gatenby (1922–1993), astronomer
 * 38) Bond, Frederick Bligh (1864–1945), architect, author, and psychical researcher
 * 39) Booker, Luke (1762–1835), Church of England clergyman and author
 * 40) Boosey, Leslie Arthur (1887–1979), music publisher !!!
 * 41) Borwick ?
 * 42) Bowden, (Bertram) Vivian, Baron Bowden (1910–1989), scientist and educationist
 * 43) Boyd, Hugh Stuart (1781–1848), Greek scholar
 * 44) Bransford, Wolstan (d. 1349), prior of Worcester and bishop of Worcester
 * 45) Bray, Sir Reynold [Reginald] (c.1440–1503), administrator !!!
 * 46) Bridgeman, William Clive, first Viscount Bridgeman (1864–1935), politician
 * 47) Briouze, Giles de (c.1170–1215), bishop of Hereford
 * 48) Bury, Charles Rugeley (1890–1968), chemist
 * 49) Busby Babes (act. 1953–1958), footballers
 * 50) Buxton, Lucy Edith Noel- [née Lucy Edith Burn], Lady Noel-Buxton (1888–1960), politician
 * 51) Callaway, Charles (1838–1915), geologist
 * 52) Card, Henry (1779–1844), writer
 * 53) Carlyle, Thomas (1795–1881), author, biographer, and historian
 * 54) Caröe, William Douglas (1857–1938), architect
 * 55) Cartland [married name McCorquodale], Dame (Mary) Barbara Hamilton (1901–2000), novelist
 * 56) Chambers, John (1780–1839), biographer and antiquary
 * 57) Chew, Ada Nield (1870–1945), labour organizer and suffragist
 * 58) Christie, Malcolm Grahame (1881–1971), intelligence officer
 * 59) Churchill, Peter Morland (1909–1972), special operations officer
 * 60) Clare, Osbert of (d. in or after 1158), prior of Westminster Abbey and ecclesiastical writer
 * 61) Clark, Thomas Archibald Bennet- (1903–1975), botanist
 * 62) Clunes, Alexander de Moro Sherriff [Alec] (1912–1970), actor and theatre manager
 * 63) Cocks, Arthur Herbert Tennyson Somers-, sixth Baron Somers (1887–1944), chief scout and colonial governor
 * 64) Cohen, Sir Andrew Benjamin (1909–1968), civil servant and colonial governor
 * 65) Colt, Henry Shapland [Harry] (1869–1951), golf course architect
 * 66) Comper, Sir (John) Ninian (1864–1960), architect
 * 67) Cooke, Charles Wallwyn Radcliffe (1840–1911), politician and promoter of cider
 * 68) Corrigan, Kathleen [name in religion Felicitas Corrigan] (1908–2003), nun, writer, and church musician
 * 69) Cottle, Amos Simon (1768?–1800), poet and translator
 * 70) Cottle, Joseph (1770–1853), bookseller and author
 * 71) Coulton, George Gordon (1858–1947), historian and controversialist
 * 72) Courtney, Dame Kathleen D'Olier (1878–1974), suffragist and peace campaigner
 * 73) Crispin, Gilbert (c.1045–1117/18), theologian and abbot of Westminster
 * 74) Croft, Sir Herbert, fifth baronet (1751–1816), writer and lexicographer !!!
 * 75) Crowley, Aleister [formerly Edward Alexander] (1875–1947), author and occultist
 * 76) Cruttwell, Charles Thomas (1847–1911), classical scholar and Church of England clergyman
 * 77) Cubitt, James (1836–1912), architect
 * 78) Cullis, Stanley [Stan] (1916–2001), footballer and football manager
 * 79) Curtis, Lionel George (1872–1955), writer and public servant
 * 80) Curtis, William Edward (1889–1969), experimental physicist
 * 81) Daniel [née Lee], Joyce Mary (1890–1985), campaigner for birth control
 * 82) Daniell [née Drake], Louisa (1808/9–1871), philanthropist
 * 83) Darwin, Anne Elizabeth [Annie] (1841–1851), daughter of Charles Darwin
 * 84) Darwin, Charles Robert (1809–1882), naturalist, geologist, and originator of the theory of natural selection
 * 85) Darwin, Sir George Howard (1845–1912), mathematician and geophysicist
 * 86) Dauglish, John (1824–1866), physician and bread manufacturer
 * 87) Davies, Myles (b. 1662, d. in or after 1719), bibliographer !!!
 * 88) Davison, James William (1813–1885), music critic
 * 89) Davy [née Kerr], Jane, Lady Davy (1780–1855), society figure
 * 90) Demant, Vigo Auguste (1893–1983), theologian and social commentator
 * 91) Denton, John Bailey (1814–1893), surveyor and civil engineer
 * 92) Denton, Sir Eric James (1923–2007), marine biologist and physiologist
 * 93) Dickens, Charles John Huffam (1812–1870),
 * 94) Drinkwater, John (1882–1937), poet and playwright
 * 95) Duggan, Mary Beatrice (1925–1973), cricketer
 * 96) Elgar, Sir Edward William, baronet (1857–1934), composer and conductor
 * 97) Ellerman, Sir John Reeves, second baronet (1909–1973), shipowner and naturalist
 * 98) Elliott, Denholm Mitchell (1922–1992), actor
 * 99) Ellis [formerly Sharpe], Alexander John (1814–1890), phonetician and mathematician
 * 100) Elton, Charles Sutherland (1900–1991), animal ecologist
 * 101) Erskine, William (1773–1852), historian of India
 * 102) Faber, Sir Geoffrey Cust (1889–1961), publisher !!!
 * 103) Feather, Victor Grayson Hardie, Baron Feather (1908–1976), trade unionist !!!
 * 104) Fielden, Sir Edward Hedley (1903–1976), air force officer
 * 105) Fielding, Daphne Winifred Louise Vivian (1904–1997), writer and socialite
 * 106) Fitzmaurice, Sir Gerald Gray (1901–1982), judge
 * 107) Fogerty, Elsie (1865–1945), founder and principal of the Central School of Speech and Drama Click
 * 108) Forge, Andrew Murray (1923–2002), painter and art critic
 * 109) Fuller, John Frederick Charles (1878–1966), army officer
 * 110) Garrod, Sir (Alfred) Guy Roland (1891–1965), air force officer
 * 111) Giffard, Godfrey (1235?–1302), administrator and bishop of Worcester
 * 112) Glover, Sarah Anna (1786–1867), music teacher
 * 113) Godley, (John) Arthur, first Baron Kilbracken (1847–1932), civil servant
 * 114) Goldschmidt, Otto Moritz David (1829–1907), pianist and composer
 * 115) Goudy, Henry (1848–1921), jurist
 * 116) Gough, Herbert John (1890–1965), mechanical engineer and expert on metal fatigue ..
 * 117) Green, George Frederick (1911–1977), writer
 * 118) Grenfell, William Henry, Baron Desborough (1855–1945), sportsman and politician
 * 119) Groves, Anthony Norris (1795–1853), missionary and a founder of the (Plymouth) Brethren !!!
 * 120) Gully, James Manby (1808–1883), physician and hydropath
 * 121) Gully, William Court, first Viscount Selby (1835–1909), speaker of the House of Commons
 * 122) Hadland, Selina (1838–1919), headmistress
 * 123) Hadow, Sir (William) Henry (1859–1937), educationist and historian of music
 * 124) Hall, Marie Pauline (1884–1956), violinist
 * 125) Hall, Peter (1803–1849), Church of England clergyman and topographer
 * 126) Hamilton [née Hammill], (Mary) Cicely (1872–1952), writer and campaigner for women's rights
 * 127) Hankin, St John Emile Clavering (1869–1909), playwright
 * 128) Hansom, Charles Francis (1817–1888), architect
 * 129) Harari [née Benenson], Manya (1905–1969), publisher and translator
 * 130) Hardwicke, Sir Cedric Webster (1893–1964), actor
 * 131) Harington, Sir Charles Robert (1897–1972), biochemist and medical administrator
 * 132) Harkness, Margaret Elise (1854–1923), author and journalist
 * 133) Harrison, Julius Allan Greenway (1885–1963), conductor and composer
 * 134) Harvey, Oliver Charles, first Baron Harvey of Tasburgh (1893–1968), diplomatist and diarist
 * 135) Hastings [née Daunais], Hazel Mary (1897–1993), teacher and Roman Catholic laywoman
 * 136) Hastings, Adrian Christopher (1929–2001), theologian and church historian
 * 137) Hastings, George Woodyatt (1825–1917), social reformer and politician
 * 138) Hastings, Sir Charles (1794–1866), physician and founder of the British Medical Association !!!
 * 139) Hawthorne, Sir Nigel Barnard (1929–2001),
 * 140) Hicks, Henry (1837–1899), geologist and alienist?
 * 141) Hiller, Dame Wendy Margaret (1912–2003), actress
 * 142) Hodgkin, Sir Alan Lloyd (1914–1998), physiologist
 * 143) Hoey, Frances Sarah Cashel [née Frances Sarah Johnston] (1830–1908), novelist
 * 144) Holland, Sir (Edward) Milner (1902–1969), lawyer
 * 145) Hollins, William (1763–1843), architect and sculptor
 * 146) Holmes, Sir Peter Fenwick (1932–2002), oil industrialist
 * 147) Home, Daniel Dunglas (1833–1886), medium
 * 148) Howell, Dorothy Gertrude (1898–1982), composer and pianist
 * 149) Howey, (Rose) Elsie Neville (1884–1963), suffragette
 * 150) Huggins, Godfrey Martin, first Viscount Malvern (1883–1971), prime minister of Southern Rhodesia ?
 * 151) Hughes, Hugh [pseud. Cristion] (1790–1863), painter and engraver
 * 152) Humphreys, (Travers) Christmas (1901–1983), judge
 * 153) Hunter, Sir Ian Bruce Hope (1919–2003), impresario
 * 154) Huntingford, Henry (1787–1867), classical scholar and Church of England clergyman
 * 155) Hutton, Catherine (1756–1846), novelist and letter-writer !!!
 * 156) Huxley, Sir Leonard George Holden (1902–1988), physicist
 * 157) Irving, (Kelville) Ernest (1877–1953), musical director and composer
 * 158) Jackson, Arnold Nugent Strode Strode- (1891–1972), athlete and army officer
 * 159) Jackson, Sir Barry Vincent (1879–1961), theatre director
 * 160) Jacob, Hildebrand (1692/3–1739), poet
 * 161) James, Henry (1843–1916), writer !!!
 * Jay, (Arthur) Osborne Montgomery (1858–1945), Church of England clergyman and social commentator
 * 1) Jeffries, Sir Charles Joseph (1896–1972), civil servant
 * 2) Jenkinson, John Banks (1781–1840), bishop of St David's
 * 3) Joseph, Horace William Brindley (1867–1943), philosopher
 * 4) Kavan, Anna [née Helen Emily Woods; married name Helen Emily Ferguson] (1901–1968), writer
 * 5) Kennion, Edward (1744–1809), landscape painter
 * 6) Kent, Sir Harold Simcox (1903–1998), lawyer and civil servant
 * 7) Kersley, George Durant (1906–1993), physician and rheumatologist
 * 8) Kilburn, Tom (1921–2001), computer scientist Click here to see image
 * 9) Knight [née Johnson], Dame Laura (1877–1970), painter
 * 10) Knott, Ralph (1878–1929), architect
 * 11) Knox, Sir Geoffrey George (1884–1958), diplomatist
 * 12) Lane [née Coulborn], Dame Elizabeth Kathleen (1905–1988), judge
 * 13) Lane, Richard James (1800–1872), lithographer and sculptor (wrote book about Malvern water cure)
 * 14) Lawrence (d. 1173), abbot of Westminster
 * 15) Lawrence, Sir Paul Ogden (1861–1952), judge
 * 16) Layard, John Willoughby (1891–1974), anthropologist and psychologist
 * Lea, John Wheeley (bap. 1791, d. 1874), sauce manufacturer
 * Lee, John (1733–1793), barrister and politician
 * 1) Lees, Edwin (1800–1887), botanist (Botany of the Malvern Hills 1843 -- Woolhope Naturalists' Field Club
 * 2) Lewis, Clive Staples (1898–1963), writer and scholar
 * 3) Lewis, George Robert (1782–1871), painter and engraver (painted Malvern Hills)
 * 4) Lewis, Wilfrid Bennett (1908–1987), physicist and civil servant
 * 5) Lewis, William Cudmore McCullagh (1885–1956), physical chemist
 * 6) Lind [married name Lind-Goldschmidt], Jenny [Johanna Maria] (1820–1887), singer
 * 7) Linton, Elizabeth [Eliza] Lynn (1822–1898), writer
 * 8) Litlyngton [Litlington], Nicholas (b. before 1315, d. 1386), abbot of Westminster
 * 9) London, John (d. 1428), Benedictine monk and recluse
 * 10) Lonsdale, John (1788–1867), bishop of Lichfield
 * 11) Lovell, Sir Thomas (c.1449–1524), administrator and speaker of the House of Commons
 * 12) Lückes, Eva Charlotte Ellis (1854–1919), nurse
 * 13) Lygon, Frederick, sixth Earl Beauchamp (1830–1891), Church of England layman and politician
 * 14) Lyttelton, William Henry (1820–1884), Church of England clergyman
 * 15) Lytton, Edward George Earle Lytton Bulwer
 * 16) Macfarlane, Sir George Gray (1916–2007), engineer and public servant
 * 17) Macleod, Iain Norman (1913–1970), politician
 * 18) Malmesbury, William of (b. c.1090, d. in or after 1142), historian, man of letters, and Benedictine monk
 * 19) Malvern, John (d. 1422), physician
 * 20) Malvern, Walcher of (d. 1135), prior of Great Malvern and astronomer
 * 21) Markland, James Heywood (1788–1864), antiquary
 * 22) Marriage [married name Garrett], Ellen (1865–1946), translator
 * 23) Martin, Dame Rosamund Mary Holland- [née Rosamund Mary Hornby], Lady Holland-Martin (1914–2001), voluntary worker
 * 24) Martin, Sir Douglas Eric [Deric] Holland- (1906–1977), naval officer
 * 25) Marx, Karl Heinrich (1818–1883), revolutionary and thinker !!!
 * 26) Matthews, Drummond Hoyle (1931–1997), (put in, Downs School)
 * 27) Mavor, Osborne Henry [pseud. James Bridie] (1888–1951), playwright
 * 28) Maybury, Sir Henry Percy (1864–1943), civil engineer
 * 29) Mayo, Elizabeth (1793–1865), educational reformer and evangelical writer
 * 30) Meade, James Edward (1907–1995), economist
 * 31) Melville, Sir Harry Work (1908–2000), chemist!!!
 * 32) Meynell [née Kilroy], Dame Alix Hester Marie, Lady Meynell (1903–1999), civil servant
 * 33) Meynell [née Thompson], Alice Christiana Gertrude (1847–1922), poet and journalist
 * 34) Miller, Thomas (1807–1874), poet and writer ?
 * 35) Mills, Sir John Lewis Ernest Watts (1908–2005), actor
 * 36) Mitchell, William (1821/2–1908), print collector and connoisseur
 * 37) Mogg, Sir (Herbert) John (1913–2001), army officer
 * 38) Molesworth [née Carstairs; other married name West], Andalusia Grant, Lady Molesworth (c.1809–1888), hostess
 * 39) Monroe, Elizabeth (1905–1986), journalist and scholar of the Middle East
 * 40) Monson, Theodosia, Lady Monson (1803–1891), promoter of women's rights
 * 41) Moore, Joseph (1766–1851), benefactor and impresario
 * 42) Morgan, Frederick Charles (1878–1978), antiquary and book collector
 * 43) Morgan, Peter Henry Geoffrey (1919–2003), motor manufacturer
 * 44) Mortimer, (Charles) Raymond Bell (1895–1980), writer on literature and art critic
 * 45) Mozley, John Kenneth (1883–1946), Church of England clergyman
 * 46) Muir, Kenneth (1912–1950), army officer
 * 47) Murdoch, Sir Keith Arthur (1885–1952), journalist and newspaper proprietor
 * 48) Myers, William Joseph (1858–1899), army officer and collector of antiquities
 * 49) Newbolt, William Charles Edmund (1844–1930), Church of England clergyman and theologian
 * 50) Nichols, Mary Sergeant Gove (1810–1884), medical reform and women's rights (water-cure centre, Aldwyn Towers)
 * 51) Nicoll, (John Ramsay) Allardyce (1894–1976), literary scholar
 * 52) Noyce, (Cuthbert) Wilfrid Francis (1917–1962), mountaineer and writer
 * 53) Oldcastle, John, Baron Cobham (d. 1417), soldier, heretic, and rebel
 * 54) Oliphant, Laurence (1829–1888), diplomatist, traveller, and mystic
 * 55) Paige, Edward George Sydney [Ted] (1930–2004), (put in RRE and Surface acoustic waves
 * 56) Parry, Sir (Charles) Hubert Hastings, baronet (1848–1918), composer and historian of music !!!
 * 57) Parry, Thomas (1795–1870), bishop of Barbados
 * 58) Parsons [née Hext], Gertrude (1812–1891), novelist
 * 59) Perrins, (Charles William) Dyson (1864–1958), book and porcelain collector and benefactor
 * 60) Perrins, William Henry (1793–1867), sauce manufacturer
 * 61) Phillipps, Samuel March (1780–1862), legal writer and civil servant
 * 62) Phillips, John (1800–1874), geologist !!! (survey memoir on the Malvern hills 1848
 * 63) Pinder, John Hothersall (1794–1868), college head
 * 64) Pinkerton, John Maurice McLean (1919–1997) (put in and TRE)
 * 65) Podmore, Frank (1856–1910), writer on psychical research
 * 66) Pomeroy [née Legge], Florence Wallace, Viscountess Harberton (1843/4–1911), dress reform campaigner
 * 67) Price [married name Maude], (Lillian) Nancy Bache (1880–1970), actress and author
 * 68) Procter, Adelaide Anne [pseud. Mary Berwick] (1825–1864), poet and women's activist
 * 69) Quin, Edwin Richard Windham Wyndham-, third earl of Dunraven (1812–1871), landowner and archaeologist
 * 70) Ramsay, Allen Beville (1872–1955), Latin poet and college head
 * 71) Raper, Robert William (1842–1915), college teacher and founder of university careers service
 * 72) Reade, Charles (1814–1884), novelist and playwright
 * 73) Reeves, Alec Harley (1902–1971), engineer and inventor
 * 74) Reeves, Christopher Reginald (1936–2007), merchant banker
 * 75) Reid, Sir Robert Basil (1921–1993), railway manager
 * 76) Rhys ap Gruffudd (1131/2–1197), prince of Deheubarth
 * 77) Ridley, (William) Arnold (1896–1984), actor and playwright
 * 78) Robertson, Sir Howard Morley (1888–1963), architect
 * 79) Roby, John (1793–1850), writer and banker !!!
 * 80) Roby, William (1766–1830), Independent minister
 * 81) Roger (c.1134–1179), bishop of Worcester
 * 82) Roget, Peter Mark (1779–1869), physician and philologist !!!!!!
 * 83) Ross, Alan Strode Campbell (1907–1980), linguist
 * 84) Rowe, Albert Percival (1898–1976), scientific administrator
 * 85) Runcorn, (Stanley) Keith (1922–1995), geophysicist
 * 86) Russell, (Irwin) Peter (1921–2003), poet and editor
 * 87) Salmon, Brian Lawson (1917–2001), businessman and public servant
 * 88) Salmon, Sir Eric Cecil Heygate (1896–1946), civil servant and local government administrator
 * 89) Salter, John William (1820–1869), palaeontologist
 * 90) Savill, Sir Eric Humphrey (1895–1980), estate administrator and horticulturist
 * 91) Sciama, Dennis William (1926–1999), cosmologist
 * 92) Scott, Peter Duncan (1914–1977), forensic psychiatrist
 * 93) Sellon, (Priscilla) Lydia (1821–1876), founder of the Society of the Most Holy Trinity
 * 94) Shore, James (1805–1874), founder of the Free Church of England
 * Sim, Alastair George Bell (1900–1976), actor and director
 * 1) Skinner, James (1818–1881), Church of England clergyman and religious writer
 * 2) Smetham, James (1821–1889), artist and writer
 * 3) Smith, Jeremiah (1771–1854), headmaster
 * 4) Smith, Sir Bryan Evers Sharwood- (1899–1983), colonial governor
 * 5) Spilsbury [married name Taylor], (Rebecca) Maria Ann [Mary] (1777–1820), painter
 * 6) Stacpoole, Henry de Vere [Harry] (1863–1951), novelist,
 * 7) Stephen [née Jackson], Julia Prinsep (1846–1895), celebrated beauty and philanthropist
 * 8) Stephen, Caroline Emelia [Milly] (1834–1909), religious writer
 * 9) Suffield, Robert Rodolph (1821–1891), Roman Catholic priest and Unitarian minister
 * 10) Sutton, Sir (Oliver) Graham (1903–1977), meteorologist and mathematician...
 * 11) Symes, Sir (George) Stewart (1882–1962), army officer and colonial governor
 * 12) Symonds, William Samuel (1818–1887), Church of England clergyman and geologist
 * 13) Symons, Jelinger Cookson (1809–1860), barrister and inspector of schools
 * 14) Tarring, John (bap. 1805?, d. 1875), architect
 * 15) Tatham, Charles Heathcote (1772–1842), architect and designer
 * 16) Temple, William (1881–1944), archbishop of Canterbury
 * 17) Thesiger, Ernest Frederic Graham (1879–1961), actor
 * 18) Thomas, James Purdon Lewes, Viscount Cilcennin (1903–1960), politician
 * 19) Thomas, William (1670–1738), Church of England clergyman and antiquary
 * 20) Titchener, Edward Bradford (1867–1927), experimental psychologist
 * 21) Trease, (Robert) Geoffrey (1909–1998), author
 * 22) Trench [née Chenevix; other married name St George], Melesina (1768–1827), diarist and letter-writer
 * 23) Trevor, George Rice Rice-, fourth Baron Dynevor (1795–1869), politician
 * 24) Tytler, Patrick Fraser (1791–1849), historian
 * 25) Uhlman, Manfred [Fred] (1901–1985), writer and painter
 * 26) Urwick, Lyndall Fownes (1891–1983), management consultant
 * 27) Vanbrugh, Dame Irene [real name Irene Barnes] (1872–1949), actress
 * 28) Vansittart, Nicholas, first Baron Bexley (1766–1851), politician !!!
 * 29) Varley, Cromwell Fleetwood (1828–1883), telegraph engineer
 * 30) Veale, Sir Douglas (1891–1973), civil servant and university administrator
 * 31) Vermuyden, Sir Cornelius (1590–1677), drainage engineer !!!
 * 32) Waddington, Conrad Hal (1905–1975), geneticist and embryologist !!!
 * 33) Wall, John (bap. 1708, d. 1776), physician and a founder of the Worcester Porcelain Company !!!
 * 34) Walwyn, Fulke Thomas Tyndall (1910–1991), racehorse trainer
 * 35) Ware, Richard of (d. 1283), abbot of Westminster
 * 36) Warriner, Doreen Agnes Rosemary Julia (1904–1972), rescuer of refugees and development economist
 * 37) Weatherill, Bruce Bernard [Jack], Baron Weatherill (1920–2007), speaker of the House of Commons !!!
 * 38) Welch, Robert Radford (1929–2000), designer and silversmith
 * 39) White, James (bap. 1775, d. 1820), author and advertising agent
 * 40) Wilks, Maurice Cary Ferdinand (1904–1963), motor and aeronautical engineer
 * 41) Williams, Norman Powell (1883–1943), theologian(1918–19). Williams was a notable Bampton lecturer ...
 * 42) Williams, Sir Frederic Calland (1911–1977), electrical engineer and university teacher
 * 43) Willughby, Francis (1635–1672), naturalist !!!
 * 44) Wilson, Edward Adrian (1872–1912), Antarctic explorer and naturalist
 * 45) Wood, (John) Christopher [Kit] (1901–1930), painter
 * 46) Young, John Zachary (1907–1997), zoologist !!!
 * 47) Abetot, Urse d' (c.1040–1108), administrator
 * Thanks. Here are some sublists. Particularly with former students of Malvern College, many are included in a WK article already, but their mention in DNB may be worth associating with their names.

Malvern College pupils

Abercrombie, Lascelles (1881–1938), poet and literary critic

Aherne, (William) Brian de Lacy (1902–1986), actor

Arlen, Michael [formerly Dikran Kouyoumdjian] (1895–1956), novelist

Aston, Francis William (1877–1945), physicist

Austin, Henry Wilfred [Bunny] (1906–2000), tennis player and evangelist

Bagnold, Ralph Alger (1896–1990), soldier and geomorphologist

Barnes, Sir Hugh Shakespear (1853–1940), administrator in India and banker Foreign Secretary

Beauman, (Archibald) Bentley (1888–1977), army officer

Begg, Sir Varyl Cargill (1908–1995), naval officer

Bennett, Sir John Wheeler Wheeler- (1902–1975), historian

Boosey, Leslie Arthur (1887–1979), music publisher

Bury, Charles Rugeley (1890–1968), chemist

Christie, Malcolm Grahame (1881–1971), intelligence officer

Cohen, Sir Andrew Benjamin (1909–1968), civil servant and colonial governor

Crowley, Aleister [formerly Edward Alexander] (1875–1947), author and occultist

Ellerman, Sir John Reeves, second baronet (1909–1973), shipowner and naturalist

Elliott, Denholm Mitchell (1922–1992), actor

Fielden, Sir Edward Hedley (1903–1976), air force officer

Fitzmaurice, Sir Gerald Gray (1901–1982), judge

Fuller, John Frederick Charles (1878–1966), army officer

Hadow, Sir (William) Henry (1859–1937), educationist and historian of music

Hankin, St John Emile Clavering (1869–1909), playwright

Harvey, Oliver Charles, first Baron Harvey of Tasburgh (1893–1968), diplomatist and diarist Holmes, Sir Peter Fenwick (1932–2002), oil industrialist

Huggins, Godfrey Martin, 1st Viscount Malvern (1883–1971), P.M. Southern Rhodesia

Humphreys, (Travers) Christmas (1901–1983), judge P.C.

Jackson, Arnold Nugent Strode Strode- (1891–1972), athlete and army officer

Jeffries, Sir Charles Joseph (1896–1972), civil servant

Knox, Sir Geoffrey George (1884–1958), diplomatist

Lawrence, Sir Paul Ogden (1861–1952), judge

Lewis, Clive Staples (1898–1963), writer and scholar

Meade, James Edward (1907–1995), economist

Mogg, Sir (Herbert) John (1913–2001), army officer

Mortimer, (Charles) Raymond Bell (1895–1980), writer on literature and art critic

Mozley, John Kenneth (1883–1946), Church of England clergyman

Muir, Kenneth (1912–1950), army officer

Reeves, Christopher Reginald (1936–2007), merchant banker

Reid, Sir Robert Basil (1921–1993), Governor of Assam and Bengal

Robertson, Sir Howard Morley (1888–1963), architect

Ross, Alan Strode Campbell (1907–1980), linguist

Russell, (Irwin) Peter (1921–2003), poet and editor

Salmon, Brian Lawson (1917–2001), businessman and public servant (Lyons)

Salmon, Sir Eric Cecil Heygate (1896–1946), civil servant and local government administrator

Savill, Sir Eric Humphrey (1895–1980), estate administrator and horticulturist

Sciama, Dennis William (1926–1999), cosmologist

Stacpoole, Henry de Vere [Harry] (1863–1951), novelist

Symes, Sir (George) Stewart (1882–1962), army officer and colonial governor

Titchener, Edward Bradford (1867–1927), experimental psychologist

Walwyn, Fulke Thomas Tyndall (1910–1991), racehorse trainer

Weatherill, Bruce Bernard [Jack], Baron Weatherill (1920–2007), The Speaker

Wilks, Maurice Cary Ferdinand (1904–1963), motor and aeronautical engineer

Williams, Norman Powell (1883–1943), theologian

Wood, (John) Christopher [Kit] (1901–1930), painter

Malvern College other

Blomfield, Sir Arthur William (1829–1899), architect designed chapels (c.1898)

Cruttwell, Charles Thomas (1847–1911), classical scholar and C of E clergyman, headmaster

Harrison, Julius Allan Greenway (1885–1963), conductor and composer director of music

Lygon, Frederick, 6th Earl Beauchamp (1830–1891), C of E layman and politician a founder (? on his land)

Martin, Dame Rosamund Mary Holland- [née Hornby], (1914–2001), member of council

Noyce, (Cuthbert) Wilfrid Francis (1917–1962), mountaineer and writer  taught languages

Perrins, (Charles William) Dyson (1864–1958) member of council

Downs School

Forge, Andrew Murray (1923–2002), painter and art critic

Matthews, Drummond Hoyle (1931–1997)

Lawnside boarding-school, Great Malvern

Eve Blois see Macleod, Iain Norman

Malvern School

Kersley, George Durant (1906–1993), physician and rheumatologist

Churchill, Peter Morland (1909–1972), special operations officer

Malvern Girls' College

Meynell [née Kilroy], Dame Alix Hester Marie, Lady Meynell (1903–1999), civil servant

Mills, Lady Agnes, (1878-1960), actress (see Sir John Mills)

Warriner, Doreen Agnes Rosemary Julia (1904–1972), rescuer of refugees and development economist

Malvern School of Art

Welch, Robert Radford (1929–2000), designer and silversmith

St. James

Alice, Princess, duchess of Gloucester (1901–2004)

Buxton, Lucy Edith Noel- [née Lucy Edith Burn], Lady Noel-Buxton (1888–1960), politician

Fielding, Daphne Winifred Louise Vivian (1904–1997), writer and socialite

Uhlman, (Nancy) Diana Joyce (née Croft) (1912–1999), art gallery administrator

Wells House School, Malvern Wells

Clark, Thomas Archibald Bennet- (1903–1975), botanist

Green, George Frederick (1911–1977), writer

St Cuthbert's preparatory school, Great Malvern

Scott, Peter Duncan (1914–1977), forensic psychiatrist

St. Leonard's Boarding School for Girls

Hamilton [née Hammill], (Mary) Cicely (1872–1952), writer and campaigner for women's rights

"prep school in Malvern"

Kent, Sir Harold Simcox (1903–1998), lawyer and civil servant

Russell, (Irwin) Peter (1921–2003), poet and editor

TRE / RRE

Adams, Sir John Bertram (1920–1984), physicist and scientific administrator

Bell, John Stewart (1928–1990), theoretical physicist (theory of accelerators)

Beynon, Sir (William John) Granville (1914–1996), physicist ??

Bolton, John Gatenby (1922–1993), astronomer

Bowden, (Bertram) Vivian, Baron Bowden (1910–1989), scientist and educationist

Denton, Sir Eric James (1923–2007), marine biologist and physiologist

Hodgkin, Sir Alan Lloyd (1914–1998), physiologist

Huxley, Sir Leonard George Holden (1902–1988), physicist

Kilburn, Tom (1921–2001), computer scientist

Macfarlane, Sir George Gray (1916–2007), engineer and public servant

Paige, Edward George Sydney [Ted] (1930–2004), RRE, Surface acoustic waves

Reeves, Alec Harley (1902–1971), engineer

Rowe, Albert Percival (1898–1976), scientific administrator

Runcorn, (Stanley) Keith (1922–1995), geophysicist

Sutton, Sir (Oliver) Graham (1903–1977), meteorologist and mathematician (chief super RRE 45-47)

Williams, Sir Frederic Calland (1911–1977), electrical engineer and university teacher

possible TRE

Curtis, William Edward (1889–1969), experimental physicist wireless training centre

Gough, Herbert John (1890–1965), mechanical engineer  RRE under Cockcroft??

Melville, Sir Harry Work (1908–2000), chemist ... 1945 Melville was superintendent

Local naturalists

Elton, Charles Sutherland (1900–1991), animal ecologist ... Eight long summer family holidays spent on the Eastnor estate in the Malvern hills also had a huge influence on his outlook.

Hicks, Henry (1837–1899), geologist and alienist proposed Precambrians in the Malvern hills

Lees, Edwin (1800–1887), botanist The Botany of the Malvern Hills (1843)

Phillips, John (1800–1874), geologist ... survey memoir on the Malvern hills (1848)

Salter, John William (1820–1869), palaeontologist contributed palaeontological appendices for memoirs on the Malvern hills by John Phillips

Wilson, Edward Adrian (1872–1912), Antarctic explorer and naturalist ... interest in the natural world, fostered by long walks in the Cotswold and Malvern hills Water cure

Attwood, Thomas (1783–1856), politician and currency theorist 1855 moved to clinic run by a Dr. Johnson at Ellerslie

Callaway, Charles (1838–1915), geologist in 1876 Malvern for nervous illness

Carlyle, Thomas (1795–1881), ?The Life of John Sterling (1851) ?

Darwin, Anne Elizabeth [Annie] (1841–1851)

Darwin, Charles Robert (1809–1882),

Darwin, Sir George Howard (1845–1912), mathematician and geophysicist

Dickens, Charles John Huffam (1812–1870)

James Manby Gully

Hall, Peter (1803–1849), Church of England clergyman and topographer Malvern for treatment 1849,

Home, Daniel Dunglas (1833–1886), medium Lane, Richard James (1800–1872), lithographer and sculptor ... wrote Life at the Water Cure, or, A Month at Malvern (1846). Lonsdale, John (1788–1867), bishop of Lichfield during 1844 to 1849

Lytton, Edward George Earle Lytton Bulwer

Marx, Karl Heinrich (1818–1883),

Mitchell, William (1821/2–1908), print collector and connoisseur !?*

Nichols, Mary Sergeant Gove (1810–1884), campaigner for medical reform and women's rights

began a ‘school of life’ at their new water-cure centre, Aldwyn Towers, in 1867 ... (they) practised medicine (she claimed healing powers)

Procter, Adelaide Anne [pseud. Mary Berwick] (1825–1864), poet and women's activist in 1862 ... tuberculosis ... tried the cure at Malvern, 2 February 1864

Reade, Charles (1814–1884), novelist and playwright hydropathic treatment for his nerves

Roby, John (1793–1850), writer and banker ... took the water cure at Malvern in spring 1847

Smetham, James (1821–1889), artist and writer

Vansittart, Nicholas, (1766–1851), brought wife 1809

Michael P. Barnett (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Good idea Michael. With all  these other people from  Malvern, it  might  be an idea now to  start  a  list  page as Giro  suggested - there's no  way  we can accomodate them all on  the Malvern page. Malvern College is interesting (it's also  one of my  GAs). There is a special list  for alumni  that  I  also  made at  List of Old Malvernians. You  can add to that  list if you  would like to, but  there are some special conditions of verifiability attached. If you  do, I would suggest you  start  with  the ones that  have Wikipedia pages and proven attendance at  the school. Photos would be good too  if you  can find any. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I took a quick look at Old Malvernians. The following are missing: Bunny Austin, Beauman, Varyl Begg, John Wheeler-Bennett, Boosey of Boosey & Hawkes. So are Bury, Christie, Harvey, Jeffries, Knox, Mogg, Mozley, Reid, Robertson, both Salmon's, Savill, Dennis Sciama, Stacpole, Titchener, Walwyn, Wilks, Williams, Wood -- I did not check for WK articles on them systematically, but I remembered there is one for Dennis, and the closest for Brian Salmon (relevant to Leo computer) are J. Lyons and Co. and Salmon & Gluckstein, latter does not have a single reference -- how does that go unnoticed? But time is inelastic, and I think the best communal use of the time I can spend on WK is to post in Malvern and Malvern Hills articles /discussion pages, and on articles about John C. Slater and Charles Coulson, further material I have collected / know where to look. I have given a cache of papers, "grey" literature etc. to Chemical Heritage Foundation that articles on Slater and Coulson, and if I can manage it, R. A. Smith, can refer to. Going back to DNB, when I need it for verifiability or emphasis, is sufficient -- this can be done quite fast, but putting full reference to author of DNB article is time consuming and can make the bibliography overwhelming. What about other people mentioned in association with College? And the other schools? I think that the article about an Old Malvernian, when there is one, should be edited to mention attendance at College. Are there ways to streamline this? Is it permissible to have hide/show paragraphs in an article. Cannot do more now. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You might  like to  get  in touch  with User talk:Abacchus1974 who  has been doing  some excellent  work  on the Old Malvernians list  since I  started it. He's very  keen. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:10, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Well done Michael! As Im not subscribed to ODNB online, I kept putting off going to the library to do this so Im glad youve taken the initiative and pasted your search results here! The arrangement by Kudpung will also be useful for editors. The ODNB is of course a very reliable source and would be an invaluable reference. Also, Im glad that some of the names under MC are ones I havent seen before (I was expecting that!) but its not a complete list. In particular, most sportsmen are omitted. But nothing is perfect! Exceptionally, even a school's own Registers can seem incomplete, whether due to a variation of spelling or an omission... For example, Stacpoole, the author of "The Blue Lagoon" (youve probably had a cocktail or been to a restaurant by the same name!) has a "k" in the Register. Although I added a Malvern reference to Stacpoole's page last year, his page is badly in need of expansion. Note also that not all persons who come under a search hit for a school necessarily attended attended as a pupil. Some may have taught there, others been on the Council, some may just have visited. It could be that Bunny Austin actually attended Repton instead of Malvern?! You have to be a bit careful about computerised search results....


 * I think in the absence of a functioning external link to an ODNB or other reputable webpage, it would be preferable to add the proper reference including edition, publisher, page... Only verifiable notable persons should be on the list, no matter how notable they may seem. Others for which information is lacking can be put on the discussion page on a "pending" list, as Kudpung has done in the past. Note that there is the category Old Malvernians and there is also the List of Old Malvernians, the latter being more selective, I hope. --Abacchus1974 (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I checked through the excerpts -- Bunny Austin scored a century AGAINST Malvern College, so should not be included, and Williams connection with Malvern College was as a teacher. Almost all the other excerpts state "was educated at" or "attended". The others state "won a scholarship to" (or paraphrase thereof) so I suppose assuming actual attendance may be questionable. So this cuts down further searching by two. A few have additional comments, e.g. Mortimer -- his "most philistine" experience, Elliott -- brief because of kleptomania. Problem not with searching having been done by computer -- just too rapid skimming of excerpts. Could NOT have got the list without free text search, and THAT needed computerized resource. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * DNB is accessible. Herewith a quotation from one of its websites: "How do I read the Oxford DNB? ... If you don't have a subscription, but want to read our biographies, here are some avenues. Use your local library's online subscription ... Almost all public libraries in the UK now subscribe online. ... Many public libraries elsewhere in the world subscribe; ask your librarian. ... Do you know you can now use your library's subscription from your own home (or anytime, anywhere with internet access)?" Michael P. Barnett (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

History subsections
It seemed awkward having Prehistory under History. I think history and prehistory are sometimes distinguished by the existence / absence of contemporary written material. But 1st definition in OED is "a relation of incidents ... professionally true", and 2nd definition brings in "written records ...". The archaeological studies of Malverns go well into the time of written records. I made the change to "Bronze Age to Monastic Times" tentatively to avoid "Prehistory" but do not like it very much. Also, "the history waits 1000 years" is a nice literary flourish, but can we be sure Malvern is NOT mentioned in any Anglo Saxon documents. I do not want to tamper with other Editor's style, but saw no harm in mentioning. Incidentally, the tombs of St. Wulfstan and St. Oswald at Worcester Cathedral, and St. Thomas Cantilupe at Hereford Cathedral became shrines -- will try to find mention of Malvern being on a pilgrimage trail. A drover's route went through Malvern (verifiably). Roman road map I looked at includes roads just a bit north and south of Malvern. I found stage coach schedule to Malvern. Would be nice to have info on earlier travel. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2011 (UTC) l
 * The coach  staging  post  was the Unicorn Inn, still  a pub, and the oldest non-mediaeval building  in  the town centre. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Accuracy and verifiability
These discussions are open to the world. Might the image of Wikipedia be affected by arguments that contain statements which could be considered inaccurate or at least unsubstantiated. For example,
 * 1. the supposed rigours of the infant Roosevelt crossing the Atlantic (in a vessel categorized as a luxury liner) is the subject of earlier comment (immediately above Talk:Malvern, Worcestershire at 9.57 est Feb 19),
 * 2. likewise Roosevelt's supposed tuberculosis
 * 3. people who "were probably not even steeped in fame at the time". Some, at least, were:
 * Charles Darwin's health 1849, Charles Darwin: "When the Beagle reached Falmouth, Cornwall, on 2 October 1836, Darwin was already a celebrity in scientific circles"
 * "Florence Nightingale, who came frequently to Malvern for treatment following the collapse of her health after the Crimean War"
 * and where is verifiability of other people who came for cure?
 * 4. "all those people who were connected with TRE/RRE never had any actual impact on he town" -- as the largest employer they contributed to the economy, to the appearance, to the traffic, to the school population of the town. The articles on TRE and RRE staff who were elected to the Royal Society, in Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of Royal Society, mention church and other social activities. I will look for mention of local amateur dramatic and musical groups, cricket and other athletics.
 * 5. if "thousands of day trippers came from Manchester" how did they get to and from Malvern in a day, and where is the verifiability
 * 6. The sarcasm about C.P.Snow is lost on me, so I cannot gauge its relevance to reasoned discussion.

Unsourced comparisons of relative importance are unverifiable value judgments. Even if Roosevelt did stay in Malvern, and was convalescing, where is the NPOV and verifiability of his meriting attention that differs from other people who came and convalesced. He was important in world history, and so were some of the others. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Jimbo Wales once compared Wikipedia articles (like laws) with sausages: you might like the taste of them, but you don't necessarily want to watch them being made. All sorts of unsourced speculations have been made on article talk pages; what matters is that the articles themselves are accurate reflections of reliable sources. I've been trying to source the story of FDR's visit to Malvern, and the results so far are surprising and quite illuminating. Geometry guy 22:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

FDR redux
As far as I can tell the most credible historical source for the fact that FDR visited Malvern as a child is [ a letter he wrote to his mother headed "ALDWYNTOWER, GREAT MALVERN"]. It can be found in "F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Early Years", a collection of his letters, edited by his son Elliot Roosevelt, and first published in 1947. The letter describes a day indoors playing games, but ends "We nearly went to the beacon this morning and we picked a lot of wild flowers". The editor notes: In the summer of 1889, [FDR] went abroad and the slight illness with which he boarded the boat was soon diagnosed as typhoid fever, necessitating his going to the Royal Infirmary in Liverpool immediately after landing. He convalesced under the care of his governess at Great Malvern, in Worcestershire, while his parents were away visiting friends - hence this letter. It was printed in ink and the date "1889" added by his mother.

So it seems that: (1) the illness he had was typhoid fever, not tuberculosis (and some modern sources, such as this refer to "typhoid"); (2) he didn't cross the Atlantic specifically to visit Malvern, but came with his parents with other destinations in mind, only to fall ill with typhoid fever on the way.

As FDR was born in January 1882, he would have been 7 in 1889.

Now, we could stop here, but the above note was written sometime after the event and supplies details which might be corroborated by other sources. The result of following this up is surprising, but may explain why it is so hard to find reliable secondary sources for the visit: there are detailed reliable secondary biographical sources for FDR's typhoid fever in 1889, but they none of them (that I have found) mention Malvern!

At age seven, in August 1889, Franklin was again taken to England. "The dear little man" was running a temperature when the Adriatic set sail, his mother noted, and did not feel at all well; but Dr. Parker had assured her that the boy had simply picked up a slight fever while swimming in the Hudson; a sea voyage would be just the thing to "break it up..." Two days out, the ship's doctor diagnosed typhoid fever. The special care and treatement Franklin then received (and which both he and his parents evidently assumed was his due) must have heightened his sense of his family's importance, and of his own. The ship's captain gave him his own "large airy room on deck"; his mother never left it during the crossing except to change her clothes, and once to attend church services, praying for "darling Franklin" while his "dear papa and Ellen" watched the patient. At Queenstown, the captain wired ahead to have his own cousin, a Dr. Gemmell, and a trained nurse meet the boat at Liverpool. Sir Thomas Ismay, founder of the White Star Line and an old friend of Mr. James, dispatched a special tender to ferry Franklin ashore. A carriage took the pale little boy on his mattress to the doctor's own home, where he lived for several weeks, receiving round-the-clock attantion. The captain of the Adriatic came to call; Sir Thomas sent fresh flowers daily; his partner sent fresh milk.

Franklin got better slowly. His temperature fell. He graduated from "cold boiled milk" to "chicken tea" to bread and milk laced with a little port (which he told his mother was deliciously "fruitful"). He played with paper cutouts and a basin filled with toy ducks, and by November 5 was well enough to travel with his parents to Pau, where he and Mr. James rode together each morning, Franklin on a small pony named "Coquette" whose frenzied gallop precisely matched the pace set by the gentle canter of his father's horse "Gigi".

According to this source, he was nursed back to health at Dr. Gemmell's house. The source also provides the original destination of the trip: Pau in France. However, it does not say anything about where FDR was in September and October.

Other sources support the above story, and tell a little more.

He was met at the Liverpool dock by a Dr. Gemmell, who, a cousin of the captain's, had been summoned by the latter via a telegram from Queenstown. He was taken in an ambulance to the doctor's own home, since hospitals in those days, believing typhoid highly contagious, would not accept typhoid patients. And every day he was confined there he received flowers and milk sent by two top officials of the ship line whose coupled names had the euphony of pig latin, Ismay and Imray, both of whom were longtime friends of James Roosevelt. For convalescence he was taken to a house in Mixbury rented by Rosy and his family that year. James and Sara left him there with Rosy and Helen while they went down to visit Sir Hugh and Lady Cholmeley at Grantham, near Euston ("James had some good shooting with Sir Hugh", Sara noted in her diary).

Seldom and slight, save in the master-servant relationship, were the boy's contacts with people who had to earn their livings. In Europe his parents mingled almost exclusively with the aristocracy. For instance, in mid-October 1889, after the boy had fully recovered from his illness, he was taken by his parents to France, where they all lived for several weeks in Versailles and Paris before moving to Pau. In Pau, James rented an apartment for the winter.

So he went from Liverpool to Mixbury (near Brackley and Buckingham), not Malvern, where his elder step-brother James Roosevelt Roosevelt (Rosy) and family had rented a house. Could this be a mistake? Well, there is another source with similar details:

At Liverpool they were met by Dr. Gemmell, a cousin of the Captain, who had summoned him by telegraph from Queenstown. He took the boy in an ambulance to his home, for hospitals at the time considered typhoid contagious and would not take typhoid patients.

Here he had all the care that love and medical and nursing skill could provide for him. Each day, Messrs Ismay and Imray of the Cunard Line, old friends of Mr. Roosevelt, sent flowers from their own places and also milk, the only food the boy was permitted.

After a few days in Liverpool, Franklin passed the crisis. His mother records:

"Here is attached a chart from the Royal Infirmary Liverpool, with which Dr. Gemmell was connected, of 'F.D. Roosevelt, Age 7.'"

A few days after the last entry, Mr. and Mrs. Roosevelt and Franklin went from Liverpool to visit Rosy who was living in Mixbury with his family. Mr. and Mrs. Roosevelt left Franklin there, "gaining strength", while they visited their old friends, the Cholmeleys, at Easton, where "James had some good shooting with Sir Hugh". They went, too, to Belvoir, one of the most beautiful of the English castles, belonging to the Duke of Rutland. Here there was much riding and hunting, in which Mr. Roosevelt joined with the numerous neices and nephews of the family. Mrs. Roosevelt usually drove after them with the Duke who was old and gouty.

Easton, Grantham and Belvoir are geographically close, so the previous source may have confused Easton with Euston (near Thetford, not Grantham). Also "Cunard Line" is wrong here (White Star merged with Cunard in 1934 and new company was known as Cunard from 1950). Nevertheless, the sources tell a fairly coherent story, in which FDR is treated in Liverpool, then convalesces in Mixbury. Furthermore, the sources appear to be based on a contemporary record: his mother Sara's diaries.

So what of the visit to Malvern? There is one detail which we haven't yet explored: who was looking after FDR while he was in Malvern? Although we may now question its reliability, Elliot Roosevelt's note states it was his "governess". Presumably FDR was not with his parents at the time, otherwise he would not have written a letter. The other sources also discuss FDR's governesses. In particular:

When the Roosevelts left London for Pau after Franklin's bout with typhoid in 1889, a Miss Buckingham had accompanied them. She was his first governess and would remain only until the family began to make its way home again the following spring.

None of this gives any confidence as to precisely when FDR visited Malvern, or for how long. It could even have been on the way home in spring 1890. We cannot yet reliably source the visit as "convalescence", nor even that it lasted for more than a few days. Geometry guy 22:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Enquiries

 * I sent a query to the Archivist at Hyde Park yesterday. The email address is Archives.FDR@nara.gov -- on the "Contact us" web page http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/contact.html . Whatever the outcome of further exploration, you have struck something really interesting. I have a question -- not wanting or trying to be difficult, just forced to ask by my training (in natural sciences): unless a photographic copy of the letter is under inspection, how is the possibility of error in the editing excluded? Suppose, e.g. Elliot had a damaged letter, without an address at the top, and filled it in from an erroneous reconstruction. I am NOT disputing that FDR was in Malvern, just mentioning possible loophole in the argument that he was. I think literary scholars (and Miss Marple) could come up with a variety of scenarios that lead to people being put in the wrong place. (e.g. The governess providing a false address to conceal a clandestine activity?) Elliot was editing as a son, not as a historian. Are there accessible comparisons of result of Elliot's editing and ANY holograph of FDR? I also emailed the West Midlands English Heritage office for information on their database of verifications. My interest is in the mechanisms for getting correct information, not in whose perception is correct or incorrect. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 00:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Many things are possible: as historians we focus on what is likely; as editors we focus on what is verifiable. In the real world, rather than Agathe Christie, cock-up is more likely than conspiracy. The ALDWYNTOWER address ties up with the reference to "the beacon", and Elliot is careful to note that the 1899 date was added by FDR's mother, suggesting he would have noted other added information. A possible resolution is that FDR acquired his governess earlier, in New York, Liverpool or Mixbury; for instance they (with Rosy and family) could have visited Malvern from Mixbury while FDRs parents went to Easton.
 * Good luck with your enquiries. One question is: where was the letter sent? Be aware however, that emails and other personal communications are not verifiable (the reader has no way to check their authenticity)! Geometry guy 13:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Herewith slight revision of what hit an edit conflict with your remarks. I agree that mixups transcend conspiracies in real world, and I agree strongly with inadmissability of email -- I use it in this context to seek scholarly references to generally accessible material rather than just unverifiable opinions.
 * The comments I had written earlier (which do include one "conspiracy" item -- consistent with personal experience of what other people did) follow.
 * Hotel letterhead paper has a habit of wandering. A printed hotel address at the top of a page does not prove where the page was written on. A very quick search for when letter head paper came into use suggests mid 19th century.
 * It is not unknown for an unscrupulous antique dealer to display letters that appear to have been written by famous people. An American tourist might see a letter apparently from FDR to his mother, buy it for a nominal sum, and send it to FDR's family as a gesture of support for the memory of FDR. (conspiracy de luxe -- quite like an Inspector Lewis case on U.S. TV recently)
 * The history of documents that were fraudulent is extensive, see e.g.
 * Did FDR customarily omit the date at the top of a letter?
 * When did American children start using the word "checkers" for what is "draughts" in English English.
 * Irony is that the more doubtful the blue plaque becomes, the greater the interest content of mentioning it.Michael P. Barnett (talk) 13:33, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. Is it possible that FDRs parents allowed the English governess to take FDR to Malvern because she wanted to visit relatives, friends, school(s) there? If this cannot be ruled out, then it becomes difficult to insist that the only reason FDR had to visit Malvern was for the waters. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is quite fascinating. Unfortunately, we cannot include original research or synthesis in Wikipedia articles!
 * FDR did omit the date from some of his childhood letters, but was mostly including it by 1889. Both "draughts" and "checkers" were used in the US in the mid 19th century. As far as I can tell, there are no beacons near Mixbury (the nearest may be Ivinghoe). Geometry guy 15:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wrong, the nearest is the Herefordshire Beacon just a short walk from the Worcestershire Beacon on whose lower slope the Aldwyn Tower sits. Kudpung (talk) 19:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Please read before you write: I am discussing beacons close to Mixbury, not close to Malvern: neither the Herefordshire Beacon nor the Worcestershire Beacon are close to Mixbury; the Ivinghoe Beacon is closer, but still not particularly close. The point here is that reference to a beacon is evidence that the letter was written from Malvern, not Mixbury, because there are no beacons near Mixbury. Geometry guy 23:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree completely that we cannot include synthesis in a WK article. But isn't it synthesis to conclude (FDR was in Malvern to convalesce) from (FDR was in Malvern) + (only reasons anyone came to Malvern were to convalesce or as day trippers) + (FDR was aristocrat) + (day trippers were not aristocrats) . Also where is verifiability that (only reasons anyone came to Malvern were to convalesce or as day trippers) .  Quite apart from omission of for cure which is not same as to convalesce, or to visit friends, relatives, have job interviews, explore business opportunities etcetera Michael P. Barnett (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is synthesis indeed. We currently cannot conclude from reliable sources that FDR came to Malvern to convalesce, only that there is evidence of a visit. Geometry guy 23:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * According to West Midlands English Heritage, the Roosevelt blue plaque was put up by Malvern Civic Society who should be contacted for source of information. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 14:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. On closer reading, the English Heritage Blue Plaques scheme is for London only! All the detailed criteria of that scheme are completely irrelevant to Malvern, where blue plaques have little to do with English Heritage. Are you following up enquiries with the Malvern Civic Society? Geometry guy 01:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have written to the MCS committee member and co-ordinator for Blue Plaques, who is also the curator of the Malvern Museum and a family friend. Kudpung (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for doing so. I look forward to news from there and from the Hyde Park archives. Geometry guy 19:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Whilst the following email message from a Senior Archivist at Hyde Park does not constitute verifiability, it is a start of dialogue regarding reliable documentary sources. But is there a catch. If definitive records of the day-by-day activities of an individual X do not allow possibility of a visit to Y in year Z, isn't removal of statement that X visited Y in year Z impermissible original research (it has involved a deduction). Anyhow, the substance of the message is: "Our resources do not reflect that young FDR traveled to England in 1888. He was in England in late 1884 and early 1885 with his parents, and then again traveled to England on board the White Star liner Adriatic with his parents in 1889.  During the latter voyage, young FDR did come down with what was diagnosed by the ship's doctor to be a case of typhoid fever.  The ship was met at Liverpool by a doctor, who took little FDR to his home during the most critical days.  Our sources then reflect that after the initial contagious period was over, FDR and his parents then went to a house in Mixbury that had been rented by FDR's much older half-brother James Roosevelt Roosevelt for the year.  FDR completed his convalescence at the Mixbury house.".


 * I emailed the Secretary of the MCS a couple of days ago: "I am trying to find the scholarly basis for the statement on the blue plaque on the building that was once the Aldwyn Towers Hotel, about Franklin D. Roosevelt. I would be glad if you would forward this message to the appropriate member of the Malvern Civic Society." No reply as yet. Hopefully, Editors who are family friends will get better response. However, I have a few questions triggered by statement "Apart from day trippers ... Manchester and Black Country ..., they all came, [for] water"
 * 1. In view of the terms of the 1884 Malvern Hills Act of Parliament, is there documentary evidence of visits to Malvern of amateurs and/or professionals interested in flora, fauna, geology, archaeology of the hills?
 * 2. In view of the history of rambling, (see e.g. Ramblers and availability of first class travel Great Western Railway, is there evidence of rambling excursions by middle class visitors, on day trips or extended vacations?
 * 3. Is there documentary information about visits to the town by parents of prospective pupils and by families attending school events at Malvern College?
 * 4. The occupancy of hotel rooms undoubtedly dropped drastically when the hydrotherapy went out of vogue, but it still would be interesting to get a gauge on numbers of people who visited Malvern for non medical reasons in 19th century.Michael P. Barnett (talk) 02:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

(←) Apart from the discussion of (non-)visits in years other than 1889, the content of the Hyde Park archivist's message can be completely verified by the three reliable secondary sources I used above, and completely agrees with the narrative established from these sources above.

Concerning Michael's question about original research, Wikipedia articles do not have to include all material, and excluding material from an isolated source is not original research. If source material is dubious, but notable, then one option is to include it with in-text attribution, and let the reader decide. Geometry guy 20:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

proof of FDR visit
I have received this night the following  communication containing transcript of a letter penned by FDR. The original is in the Malvern Museum. It may  also  be possible to  have an electronic copy  of it  sent to  OTRS for approval, but  I  have not asked this favour yet:

F D Roosevelt @ Aldwyn Tower, Malvern – 1889

Letter from FDR to his mother;

1889

Aldwyn Tower Great Malvern

My dear Mama,

We have not been able to go out today. We have been play- Ing games. One game was Steeplechase the other was Soldiers the other Dominoes, and it took up all the morning. We played some more this afternoon. We made a great discovery of a box of Dominoes and Draughts with the red and white kings and queen just like that book THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS. We nearly went to the beacon this morning and we picked a lot of wild flowers. Your loving FRANKLIN Written across the outside of the letter, to show when folded:

In the summer of 1889 he went abroad, and the slight illness with which he boarded the boat was soon diagnosed as typhoid fever, necessitating his going to the Royal Infirmary in Liverpool immediately after his landing. He convalesced under the care of his governess at Great Malvern, in Worces- tershire, while his parents were away visiting various friends – hence his letter. It was printed in ink, and the date ‘1889’ added by his mother.

My comment  further up:
 * as a sick child in the days of relatively primitive trans-oceanic travel, shipping the ailing FDR to the UK must have been quite an ordeal; he was more than just a passing hotel guest and he went there for reasons of Malvern's reputation as a leading Victorian health spa
 * is not in  the article, and does not  need a reference. We need to  differentiate between discussing improvements to the article (additions and/or deletions), which my  statement  does, and what is actually in it and needs sourcing. Kudpung (talk) 04:30, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are aware of the letter. Please read the beginning of the thread (FDR redux). It would be great to have an electronic copy (if not possible, I could visit Malvern). Geometry guy 08:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Returning to this, I am now extremely intrigued to see the original letter for the following reason: the above transcript uses identical line breaks (including hyphens) to the book "F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Early Years", the 1947 collection of FDR letters, edited by his son, and quoted in FDR redux above. This is interesting because the book, which has a full preview on Google books, does not contain a facsimile of this particular letter, and does not format or hyphenate other letters according to the original. The book contains multiple facsimiles of FDR's letters at this age, and they use far fewer words per line, because of the large writing of a seven or eight year old.
 * The most obvious conclusion is that the above transcript is taken from the book (1947 collection) or some derivative. The second part of the transcript is actually an editorial note in the book: according to the editor, the message readable on the outside of the letter, when folded, is "FROM FRANKLIN". All this can be checked on Google books. Geometry guy 21:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have written again to the curator of the Malvern Museum and I  have sent you  a copy  of the communication. If  the museum indeed has the original letter, they  will doubtless confirm it.  Kudpung (talk) 01:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be great. Geometry guy 02:12, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Personal connections can work wonders, but in  order to  avoid any  possible COI  issues, I'll have to stop  doing  this ;) Kudpung (talk) 06:39, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I've been slightly wrong  about Aldwyn Tower. My  father stayed there for a while around 1940/42 when TRE  was moved to  Malvern  before he was finally  billeted in  rooms at  what  is now Malvern College. In those days is was already  not  a 'Grand hotel', but  apparently  more of a rooming  house. Some time after the war it  became a private, rather than a commercial hotel, and did not  extend to providing  food or refreshment for the guests. It  was owned by  a Mr Reg Weeden and continued to  be run as an economy  hotel - probably  a bit  Fawlty, without  the food -  until Weeden passed away at  the age of 100 about  15 years ago, after which  it  was finally converted into studio flats (apartments). Kudpung (talk) 14:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. This slightly improves the chances of their being extant records, but not much! Geometry guy 00:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * An RS from the BBC has since been added. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)