Talk:Mamert Giedgowd

Requested move 28 June 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. at 20:16, 12 July 2022‎ (UTC) by Mellohi!. Courtesy close as rmCloser may have experienced a bug. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 21:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Mamertas Gedgaudas → Mamert Giedgowd – Similar situation to Talk:Romuald Giedroyć, Polish-Lithuanian figure of January Uprising, from the Polish-speaking family. Mamert Giedgowd is the name used by contemporaries, as you can see here. Marcelus (talk) 18:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Judekkan (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per contemporary use. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose - this person came from a Lithuanian noble family, fought in ethnically Lithuanian lands with units composed of locals (i.e. Lithuanians). Contemporary Polish-language sources are useless in determining a person's real name, especially that of a Lithuanian, because Poles would have necessarily Polonized his name for it to fit into their language, ergo, Polish sources give no justification for presuming that his real name was Polish.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 11:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * do you have a contemporary source for Lithuanian sounding name? Marcelus (talk) 12:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No, but the case of Adomas Bitė is enlightening, because contemporary sources, i.e. essentially Polish-language ones, give his name as Adam Bitis, while in reality, he was Adomas Bitė, as written here . And, just like Adomas Bitė, Mamertas Gedgaudas was deep in ethnographic Lithuania. Contemporary Polish-language sources are insufficient to establish a person's real name, and the wider context must be taken into account. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Adam Bitis isn't Polish name, but a Lithuanian one, Polish name would be: Adam Pszczoła. Linked text isn't from 1860 so I don't know how it's relevant here 15:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It is Polish. To claim that it is a Lithuanian name is nonsense, Adam is clearly Polish, while Bitis is not Lithuanian, but pseudo-Lithuanian at best. As I said before, Contemporary Polish-language sources are insufficient to establish a person's real name, and the wider context must be taken into account.. The linked text is not from the 1860s, but it is relevant in that it precizes that it was Bitė instead of Bitis, because the Bitis family is non-existent, while relatives of Adomas Bitė still kept the memory of him going and there actually is a Bitė family in Lithuania.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:22, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Bitis isn't Polish either, it's probably old-Lithuanian, Lithuanian language changed a lot since then. Same situation with Kajetonas Nezabitauskis who actually was using Kajeton Niezabitawski name in his Lithuanian books, and Kajetan Niezabitowski in his Polish texts. Marcelus (talk) 15:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it's not Old Lithuanian, I am absolutely certain of that. Lithuanian language has not changed that much (at least since the 19th century), Lithuanian writing from mid-19th century by Motiejus Valančius is mostly easy reading, except for some words here and there that might be unused now. A Lithuanian-language manifesto from the Uprising of 1794 is harder to read, but the majority of the text is clear, notwithstanding the many Polish words. By comparison, the 16th-century Postil of Mikalojus Daukša is harder, although the reading is complicated mostly by the complicated font instead of anything else; at the comprehension level, it is surprisingly more understandable than not.
 * As for Kajetonas Nezabitauskis, his name in the Lithuanian-language publication is marked Kajetona Niezabitawski, meaning he did not put the same name as he did on the Polish publication. I would say that the difference between his name in contemporary Lithuanian-language publications and what is written now is because of lack of codification of Lithuanian. Furthermore, the Nezabitauskai (family name in plural; male singular is Nezabitauskas) are also known as Zabičiai (also in plural; male singular is Zabitis). Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that Kajetona is declension, in nominative it would be "Kajeton", but I can be wrong. Nonetheless my point is the same, he used Lithuanian version of his name, that's very different from the modern spelling Nezabitauskas, but still it's Lithuanian name.
 * Also you are wrong that Polish texts use only Polish version of names. As for January Uprising there are several participants that in Polish texts are always under Lithuanian names: Adam Bitis, Kazimierz Łukaszunas, Diekwis, Guges, Pujdokas, Luges, Józef Zybers, Brazalis. I don't how they suppose to be spelled in modern Lithuanian, but certainly they aren't Polish or Polonised Marcelus (talk) 19:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Those names you call "Lithuanian names" are not so - for Adam Bitis, I will not reexplain - for Kazimierz Łukaszunas, his Lithuanian name is Kazimieras Lukošiūnas, Mikołaj Pujdokas → Mykolas Puidokas. In fact, regarding Pujdokas, he's mentioned as Pujdak in Ojczyzna, dziennik polityczny, literacki i naukowy 1865 nr 59 i 60 (also see this ). So, we have an undebatable case where a Lithuanian is given a Polonized name.
 * I am very surprised about the names Diekwis, Luges, Guges... Regarding the last name, maybe Guges → Gugis (maybe?); there's a village in Lithuania called Gugiai and there was a person named Kazys Gugis, which could be totally unrelated to the person in question. The case of Józef Zybers is also bizarre, because neither the first name, nor the surname don't seem like anything Lithuanian - Józef would've been Juozas/Juozapas in Lithuanian, but Zybers? I have no clue, perhaps something later will come up. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Guges is sometimes written as Gugis yes. The point is that as you can see Lithuanian speaking insurgents were using Lithuanian names, and Polish writers didn't change them, in the worst case they were writing them down the way they heard them. Another interesting example is Seweryn Gross, son of Aleksander, who was using alias Aleksandrajtis/Aleksandrajtys. And the alias is never Polonized as "Aleksandrowicz". As you can see your point cannot stand. You just need to accept that the vast majority of Uprising commanders in Lithuania were Polish speakers Marcelus (talk) 07:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Guges is sometimes written as Gugis yes. No, your fake surety is problematic. It's not Guges is sometimes written as Gugis, it's the reverse. Gugis, or equally as likely Gugas, is malformed into a bizarre name by a foreign writer.
 * in the worst case they were writing them down the way they heard them No - The case of Mykolas Puidokas proves you wrong, where his name is polonized as Pujdok (ctrl+f for "Pujdok" in ) or even Pujdak . As for Seweryn Gross, there's Artūras Severinas Grosas. Btw, Aleksandraitis means the son of Aleksandras, so he must have known at least basic Lithuanian. My point still stands, because Polonization still occurs in cases like Mykolas Puidokas - whose first name is seemingly missing while his surname is turned into Pujdok/Pujdak in Polish sources. Another case I found is Eliziejus Liutkevičius →  Polonized as Elizeusz Ludkiewicz (also as: Ludobroński, Ludwikiewicz, Lutkiewicz, Litkiewicz) ), from whose writing it is clear with who he sympathized:
 * With us in Lithuania, in principle, neither freedom, nor the homeland, nor success, nor the spirit of the time cannot rely upon this class [the Polonized higher nobility]. Therefore, in my opinion, we need to raise ordinary people in Lithuania and, based on this waking or partially awakened people /.../, we must build the future..
 * You just need to accept that the vast majority of Uprising commanders in Lithuania were Polish speakers I am not denying that they would have known how to speak Polish. However, Polonization of the authentic Lithuanian names of those who were Lithuanians from ethnographic Lithuania, especially Samogitia, and were rather distant from Poland (it was neither their birthplace, it was neither their battleground for liberty, etc., etc.), is unacceptable. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Change your tone Marcelus (talk) 08:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.