Talk:Mamma (song)

Title
Not sure that "Mama (Connie Francis song)" is the right title for this article as the song was actually written two decades or so before Francis recorded it, and recorded by several other artists before, though hers is probably the most well known version. I recently moved it to "Mama (1941 song)" but decided against that as it had been at "Mama (1960 song)" for a few years. Anybody have any thoughts on this? TheRetroGuy (talk) 19:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with your original move to 1941 song since that is when it was written. Many older songs on Wikipedia are done that way since there is no clear cut original performance, even though the song itself had become popular. It definitely shouldn't be disambiguated with the Connie Francis tag, and I am proposing it be changed back to Mama (1941 song). Thanks. --Wolfer68 (talk) 00:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
do not move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC) Mama (Connie Francis song) → Mama (1941 song) — Convention of older songs on wikipedia seem to follow this format. Normally, the artist who covers the song, even if it is the most well known version, does not get the disambiguation tag following the title. — Wolfer68 (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Oppose per WikiProject Songs, which says songs are disambiguated first by artist name. I think it should be by year, but the current style guideline says artist.  TJ   Spyke   00:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The article states that it was a popular hit recording in 1946 as well, so why should the disambiguation be "Connie Francis song". We don't have "It's My Life (No Doubt song)" even though their version was arguably the bigger hit and became more well known then the original Talk Talk version. --Wolfer68 (talk) 05:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So what if it was re-released a few years later? If anything, that is more evidence for keeping it at the current (correct) name. If the song was re-released a few years later, why list one year?  TJ   Spyke   00:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. The guideline at WP:NAME falls apart for standards where there are often numerous notable artists for a song. This has been raised a couple of times on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs, with the year being suggested for disambiguation, but there has never been extended discussion, a clear concensus, or an addendum to the naming guidelines. I think the year is the more neutral tag for instances like these. dissolve  talk  21:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Take a look at my comment, their is already a guideline for songs and that guideline supports the current name. If you disagree with the guideline, suggest a change their rather than supporting a article go against the guideline.  TJ   Spyke   00:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Comment. Mama lists nine other songs named "Mama" and each is disambiguated by the artist who made them famous. Listeners rarely know who wrote a song, or when it was written. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 21:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Additonal comments on the article title
The issue wasn't the year but the credit to Connie Francis. This is not a Connie Francis song, and I don't know of any other disambiguated titles that use the more popular version over the original artist's version. See Step by Step (Annie Lennox song), an album cut by Annie Lennox but a hit song by Whitney Houston. The convention of years comes from many songs in the 40s and 50s being recorded as hit versions by multiple artists often at the same time, such as Young Love (1956 song). --Wolfer68 (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to me, that the article's title is incorrect. Why is "David Whitfield song" or "Connie Francis song"? It is better "Cesare Andrea Bixio song". Marchfishka (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. The composer should get the credit in the disambig tag, not just one of the many people who happened to record their version of it. Performers come and go, and everyone will have their own personal favourites depending on which generation they most associate with, but the composer will always be the composer.  The title ought to be Mama (Bixio).   --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  02:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Bruno or Bixio Cherubini?
Until I recently updated it, the article had contradicted itself by specifying the original Italian lyricist as Bixio Cherubini in the lead, but Bruno Cherubini in the infobox. These are two different people, the latter being the elder brother of the former. Unfortunately, the original scores from the 1940s only give the lyricist as "B. Cherubini", and this, together with the younger Cherubini's given name being the same as the composer's (Cesare Andrea Bixio) surname, seems to have led to a hopeless confusion as to who the lyricist really was. This confusion extends even to printed literature, some of which give Bixio C. As the lyricist (e.g., , ) while others give Bruno (e.g. , , ).

The article's citations to the Italian Wikipedia articles Bixio Cherubini and Cesare Andrea Bixio aren't of much help in resolving the issue. Apart from the fact that Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, these two articles had also contradicted each other (until I updated the latter), since the first says that Bixio C. was the lyricist of Mamma while the second had said that Bruno was.

I'm fairly sure, but not yet completely convinced, that the article's lead is actually correct in specifying Bixio Cherubini as the lyricist. My reasons for this belief are: David Wilson (talk · cont) 14:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * there are impeccable sources (e.g., ) which identify a collaboration between Cesare Andrea Bixio and Bixio Cherubini as famously responsible for a plethora of enormously successful italiian songs from the 1920s to the 1950s. However, I've yet to find an explicit statement in any such source that Mamma was one of the results of this collaboration, so this doesn't entirely rule out the possibility of Bruno's being the lyricist of that song.
 * The current online catalogue of Bixio Music Group, the original publisher of the song, lists Cherubini Bixio as the lyricist.
 * The credit on the label of Connie Francis's album, Connie Francis sings Italian Favorites, for the song Mama is Bixio-Barlow-Brito-Cherubini, with nothing at all to indicate that the Cherubini being referred to is Bruno (or that it is Bixio, for that matter).   That on the label of her 1959 Mama/Teddy single is merely Barlow-Brito.  However, since the Italian text included in this version is a verbatim copy of part of the original Italian version, I strongly suspect that the Cherubini being referred to in the former credit is Bixio rather than Bruno.
 * David Wilson (talk · cont) ,

I have just taken delivery of ''[http://www.donzelli.it/libro/9788860361905 Mamma. Alle origini di uno stereotipo italiano]'', which confirms beyond any reasonable doubt that the original Italian lyricist was Bixio Cherubini. David Wilson (talk · cont) 12:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)