Talk:Mamma Mia! (film)/Archive 1

Release
uuum... i just saw the movie in greece! so it has been released commercially.... should i remove the "future movie" thing...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.191.236 (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ya --88.241.66.16 (talk) 06:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

May need to revisit Rotten Tomatoes this weekend
MM doesn't open in the U.S. until this week, so we may need to revisit Rotten Tomatoes' overall score once American reviews come out (traditionally in the paper the day of the opening). Also, some of the negative reviews are notable, as in the case of Peter Bradshaw's for The Guardian in the UK (see this link).Lawikitejana (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Buona Sera, Mrs. Campbell?
Have the writers of the musical said that the plot was adapted from "Buona Sera, Mrs. Campbell"? The two plots are indeed very similar, and I wanted to know if the similarities were acknowledged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.92.129 (talk) 18:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The answer to that is that Catherine Johnson has not ever stated that publicly to my knowledge. There are some slight similarities and I note that the Wikipedia article Buona Sera, Mrs. Campbell makes this claim, also Peter Bradshaw in his Guardian review. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:38, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Issues with Plot Summary
A user has rewritten the plot summary by removing most of it. Granted, the existing summary was poorly written and needs to be redone. But we should attempt to achieve that without leaving out most of the movie. --DavidK93 (talk) 19:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 22-July-08: Thank you for restoring the plot details. Yes, the film plot is quite complex (perhaps to encourage watching the film again). As someone noted, in the Music section, Streep is even humming "Fernando" in the goat house.  With all the comedic gags, the full plot would be overwhelming, so even a summary will be extensive.  I tried the technique of mentioning each major song when sung, as a guide to covering the main events, but then someone claimed "songs are not mentioned" in a musical-film summary (even for the most popular musical film ever released? whatever.).  Of course, wild ranges of edits are made in many Wikipedia articles, so bizarre hackings are typical: expect to revert more cuts.  I recommend to continue allowing others to expand/refine the plot details, until the full impact of the film's popularity can be understood by more people.  This is a very NOTABLE film, worthy of more description.  Eventually, the events concerning goddess Aphrodite should be described, plus I'm thinking about the "Greek chorus" in ancient Greek drama.  There are a lot of details to consider. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 23-July-2008: I have expanded the plot to include goddess Aphrodite. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 04-Aug-2008: I have created a new section "Themes" to explain use of the Greek chorus (plus source footnote). Discuss below under topic: "Added themes". -Wikid77 (talk) 22:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 22-Feb-2009: I'm wondering what's happened to Harry's coming out and making off with the Greek boy? DW

Song titles in plot
23-July-2008: I have restored some of the song titles removed from the Plot section. The songs are part of the plot in this film: it is notable that "Chiquitita" was not sung through the streets, but "Dancing Queen" was sung down to the harbor. Also, in this musical film, the song titles act as idioms in describing events, just as "Let It Be" is a cultural idiom from The Beatles. Perhaps in other musical films, the song titles might be less critical, but in this film, most of the songs were top hits, around the world, during 1974-1982. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've had this discussion in the past while working with Hairspray (2007 film) (I was actually on your side of the issue at the time, trying to add them to the plot), and from what I understand consensus seems to be that song titles are not to be included in the plot section of an article on a musical film. The songs have their own Musical numbers section, there can even be a section discussing the significance of the songs, there can be a section on the film's soundtrack, and the soundtrack can even have its own article, but the purpose of the plot section is not to list the songs that were sung but to describe the film's story in a way that can be easily understood by the average reader. Here are some examples of other notable musical film articles, none of which include the songs in the plot summary:


 * Grease (film)
 * Hairspray (2007 film)
 * Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (2007 film)
 * Dreamgirls (film)
 * The Sound of Music (film)
 * The Phantom of the Opera (2004 film)
 * Moulin Rouge!
 * All That Jazz
 * The Blues Brothers (film)
 * Beauty and the Beast (1991 film)
 * Mary Poppins (film)
 * The Wizard of Oz (1939 film)
 * Singin' in the Rain (film)


 * I'm sure there will be those who want to discuss this matter further, but it seems pretty clear to me that standard practice on Wikipedia is not to include the musical numbers in the plot synopsis (at least not in a ("Dancing Queen") sort of way), and I fail to see what makes this article so significantly different from the others that the film's songs should be listed in the synopsis. — MearsMan  talk  02:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to arguethe other side, I don't think there is a Wikipedia canonical form for articles on musical films. Precedent may be a guide, but it isn't binding. The songs in Mamma Mia! are familiar to many, and their placement in the plot description is useful in imagining the film if you haven't seen it, clarifying if you have. Barte (talk) 00:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

03-Aug-2008: There are many, many reasons to include the song titles within the film's Plot section:
 * many people want them in the plot (someone stuck them into article "Moulin Rouge!");
 * each song can be noted as tied to the plot events;
 * titles in the plot avoids repeating plot events in Soundtrack section where plot-spoilers are not expected/retained;
 * it's a compromise because "spoiler sections" are no longer retained in Wikipedia (due to narrow view of events being only revealed by plot, not by reviews or character changes, etc.), and relating music titles to plot events could reveal plot outcomes in Soundtrack sections, hence the best place to put song titles is in the Plot section where people can expect to get the plot spoiled by revealing the outcomes;
 * published reviews actually use song titles in plot descriptions, and Wikipedia is not allowed to ignore or subset reality (ya, right);
 * editors are getting burnout with all these articles, and extra forced rules do not help people write better articles.

Overall, remember that Wikipedia is a can of worms and hornet's nest of dozens of invented, artificial rules that should be used with caution, mostly ignored. The most important thing is: be cordial to other people, because writing words becomes a Tower of Babel that can foster vanity and disarray. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Brosnan's Singing
The majority of the reviews commented on how atrocious Pierce Brosnan's singing is (the audience actually was laughing during his later songs when I saw it), should this be included somewhere? MatthewBrooklyn (talk) 14:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * 02-August-2008: I agree that it should be mentioned in a separate sub-section: although he sang in tune, it sounded like a forced tenor voice beyond his baritone range, coupled with unusually close-up filming (for TV presentation) which seemed excessively close-up for the broader setting, perhaps causing more laughter (his face was the only image on screen). I wondered if his contract demanded a minimum number of minutes of close-up scenes in the film. I think several other issues should be expanded as well in that proposed sub-section. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the film intentionally capitalized on Brosnan's atrocious singing voice. Didn't the reviewers get this? I dont think he was taking himself seriously. Everyone viewing thought this was hilarious. Surely the producers of tha film were well aware of this. 61.88.61.66 (talk) 05:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I laughed myself silly when Brosnan began singing SOS, and that was because he war his best James Bond "i'm about to avenge someone's death" look on his face will doing so. Very comic, and obviously intentionally so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.71.6 (talk) 21:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Same - I laughed when he started singing SOS and Our Last Summer (after colin's line). but wikipedia is not about point of view. See WP:NPOV. I am not sure whether this is intentional or not. --w_tanoto (talk) 12:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Expand oversimplified plot
03-Aug-2008: Due to fears of the tag "plot-too-long" the Plot section was chopped in July to be even less complete. This has been a common problem in Wikipedia: plot sections are often condensed to a prejudged size, despite some plots involving psychological events that are not simple to describe. Psychological plots (such as in the film Bounce) cannot be described as easily as: "a bunch of clowns rob a bank, cutting the alarm system, kill each other, and the last clown escapes on a schoolbus into the school convoy". Instead, psychological plots involve more complex sentences describing misperceptions and motives, such as Romeo's actions when he finds Juliet asleep. The plot for Mamma Mia! must be expanded to include the details of the psychological events that affect the actions. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 04-Aug-2008: Several people have expanded the plot, and most songs are finally noted in the events (thanks everybody). To avoid future complaints (about "plot-too-long"), I have added an internal HTML comment note:
 * -- This plot section might seem long, but covers 8 characters + Aphrodite,
 * -- mixed in with a Greek chorus: a lot happens on the island.
 * The plot now reflects the full story, with events in sequence. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Romeo and Juliet is in the public domain, so you can paraphrase the plot as much you like. A plot 'summary' that is a complete exposition of the plot of a copyright motion picture is unlikely to be 'fair use' even if it is written in your own words.  Sorry to be a killjoy. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 22:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation of song titles
03-Aug-2008: Because there are so many songs in the film, this is a reminder that Wikipedia uses the system of logical quotations, putting commas/periods outside of quotation marks, unless quoting an entire sentence. Unlike in English grammar, commas should be placed after quotation marks in listing song titles, such as: "Chiquitita", "Fernando", "I Have a Dream". -Wikid77 (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Added themes
04-Aug-2008: To help explain the larger scope of the plot (and avoid "plot-too-long" tagging), I finally realized ("Eureka") that a controlled solution was to create the new section "Themes" which can explain Greek comedy and denote activities of the townspeople as the Greek chorus. As a separate section, "Themes" also allows more drama-related references to be added as ref-tags without further cluttering the Plot section. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with this is that the section violates several Wikipedia policies, including WP:RS, WP:ELNO, and WP:OR. The issue of Themes is largely based on opinion, and the main source that was given is not by a reputable film critic. The section really is unnecessary anyway and best left out of the article.79.66.102.214 (talk) 01:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Opening Scene
I heard that in some theatres they showed the opening scene of the 1999 film Summer of Sam (in which two women are sitting in a car listening to ABBA's Fernando on the radio, then are approached by a gunman who shoots and kills them) instead of the real opening scene, as some kind of joke. If there's any proof that that has happened, then it should probibly be mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.46.103 (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Move to "Mamma Mia! - The Movie"
Shouldn't this article be moved to "Mamma Mia! - The Movie", as it's the complete title of the film? Pardy (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC).


 * Sure. I am not sure if the hyphen matches Wikipedia style, but Mamma Mia! (film) seems far less appropriate. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * 07-Sep-2008: Well, as step one, I just added "The Movie" into the text, so the film title shows as "Mamma Mia! The Movie" which also appears as the film title in many webpages about the film. I don't see many using the hyphen, so that's still a question. There is already a Wikipedia name-redirection from "Mamma Mia! The Movie" to link the article as well. So far, that first step allows searching for "~The Movie" and matching with that part also. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Done (no hyphen). The topnote is now unnecessary (and duplicated by links in the lead section) so I removed that. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why this has been moved back.. there doesn't seem to be a discussion on the subject? »— Mikay —  talk  —  contribs  →  18:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There is sometimes a problem on Wikipedia with film titles, particularly where the actual, on-screen title differs from the promotional one displayed on posters and DVDs. I would follow the IMDb's example and treat the on-screen title as the one that counts. Therefore: Raiders of the Lost Ark and not Indiana Jones and...; Superman and not Superman: The Movie; X2 and not X-Men 2, etc. It is perfectly acceptable to mention the promotional title within the opening, but to rename the article as such would be misleading. Chris 42 (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Guidelines for writing this film article
07-Sep-2008: There are some ground rules or guidelines for writing about musical films on Wikipedia, beginning with the basics for any article, such as only adding statements which are verifiable (WP:VERIFY), plus the basics for grammar (whole sentences within paragraphs) and punctuation. Another issue is to keep most plot details in a section called "Plot" because the use of plot-spoiler tags was cut from Wikipedia (circa 2006); hence, revealing plot outcomes in other sections (such as "Cast" descriptions) does not let readers skip the Plot section without having the plot revealed by other text. I realize that not having most of the film-article guidelines listed here (or somewhere) tends to mislead people into thinking that this film article could be changed in just about any consistent manner, but that is not the case, and using other writing styles would cause conflicts with Wikipedia film-article writers. We need a specification section (attached to the talk-page) to list and explain more of the ground rules about writing film-articles, so that people will not be continually shocked to find the article is being implicitly controlled by those unseen rules about writing this article. I apologize that I did not clarify those "hidden" guidelines weeks ago, but I have been distracted by other issues recently. More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism in "Plot" Section?
20-Sep-2008: I'm thinking the Plot section was vandalized at some point....I haven't gone back to look at the compare versions, but the sentence, she concludes he is one of three men: David Kolesinski (David Kolesinski), David Newton (David Newton), or Mark Kolesinski (Mark Kolesinski) clearly isn't right.

British Bias in review section
The review section should be revised to include a more global reception. While it gives aggregates, the quotes and mentions in the first paragraph (all 6) are taken from british reviewers. While some american reviewers are used in the next paragraph its solely to comment on Brosnan.--Crossmr (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

changes I made to the infobox
I added germany as one of the country (according to imdb), and French as one of the language because the song Voulez-vous contains french phrase.--w_tanoto (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That hardly qualifies as a language for the film, removed. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:09, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Differences from the stage production
Wasn't Harry (Colin Firth's character) revealed as the real father in the stage production? I remember him being revealed as the father, but in the movie it's left unresolved. Cactusjump (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Additional Songs
So which are the additional songs written for Mamma Mia? The tracks listed here all seem to be ABBA originals. Pedrocelli (talk) 22:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
This page has clearly been vandalised. I leave it to more experienced Wikipedia users to remove the offending phrases (which have been repeated several times), and to check for any other, less obvious, changes which may have been made. Larmel (talk) 11:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Was "Under Attack" planned to be used in the movie?
I noticed a short scene while watching the third german trailer of Mamma Mia. There is a moment in this trailer, where Sophie wakes up like shocked. This is definetely not in the final version of the movie, but it fits perfect in between the final of Voulez-Vous, where she collapses and the "next day" (hard cut in my opinion, like the moment where Name of the Game has been cut out) where she enters Ali's and Lisa's room. And it would explain why Sophies collapse wasn't mentioned it all after it happened. I guess it was planned that Under Attack would be in the movie as the same dream sequence like in the musical. Has anyone more information about it to mention in the article? --192.129.26.10 (talk) 23:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC) (sorry for my english, i'm no native speaker)

the role of christine baranski
Are you absoulutly sure of the last name of tonya because they don't mention her last name in the movie and if you found this information some where would you please inform me of where?24.167.161.77 (talk)mamma mia fan24.167.161.77 (talk) 00:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)