Talk:Mana (series)/Archive 4

Logos
Ok, as I look at the new change in the article, the SD names have been changed to Mana, and the SD4 logo has been moved to DoM. I have this one question, shouldn't we use the actual DoM logo instead of the SD4 logo if we are to name it DoM logo? It is just confusing to see a logo saying nothing about DoM and expect readers to understand it is actually the SD4 logo instead of the DoM logo. Same goes with the other logos as well, should we upload the English title versions(if available) or should we just keep the SD logos? MythSearchertalk 08:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Japanese names are clearly written in parentheses next to the international names, so confusion is not possible. Of course, it would still be better to show the international logos rather than the Japanese ones. Kariteh 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking on the matter, we still need the Friends of Mana logo. Anymone manage to snag it yet?--Claude 23:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added it. I couldn't find a bigger one though. Kariteh 10:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Merging into Seiken Densetsu
I think such a merger would be ill-advised as it would make the Seiken Densetsu article overly long, and disrupt the structure of that article by inserting an article-length text about one facet of the Seiken Densetsu series in said article. Shinobu 02:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea would be that the article would be trimmed to fit within the flow of the article. Judgesurreal777 02:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Rabites
This is Kelpie K here, I noticed something about the information about the rabites. Namely, that the green\great rabite was missing from the list. I have added it, and now that that's added I'm not sure if the king rabite really is the strongest normal rabite. Also, isn't the king rabite's color silverish white with a blue tail? Not lilac?

Kelpie K 20:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said on the old stand-alone Rabite article, on the screen I used to play Seiken Densetsu 3, they seemed lilac to me, but, that might be something to do with the shading and my prior experience with the Rabites in Legend of Mana. -LichYoshi 08:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The greenish great rabi is the more powerful of the two. About the colour of the kings, it is too hard to tell, from what I know, westerners and easterners have different views on colours(creating havoc in the early vehicle industry since the colour boards displayed to buyers seems to be the same as the car from the eastern dealer, but the western buyers always complaint about the colour being very different to a point where the colours fall into different category in their view point, and vice versa).  It is of a light greyish blue colour to me, with nothing close to lilac or purple. MythSearchertalk 17:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. more like a #CCCCFF Periwinkle (color) to me than the #C8A2C8 Lilac (color). MythSearchertalk 17:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review
{from the peer review} The main article of the Secret of Mana series (as most people know it), is in great need of help. I want to get it to at least GA. Thoughts? Thanks so much! Judgesurreal777 19:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow this article is long.


 * I would recommend splitting some of the common elements into their own articles, but make sure to include conception, creation, reception, and refs or it will be deleted as cruft. I think Rabites is a good example of something that needs to be split, expanded, and have a main article link in the series article.
 * Images need fair use rationales.
 * Lots of references are needed. Even has a couple of fact tags. Any fact that could be challenged needs a citation.
 * Where is the reception, development, and audio sections?
 * The games section needs to be structured more like this. I would suggest removing the images of every single game and summarize some of the games better.
 * Once you write more of the out of universe sections, I would expand and reference the lead.

Have fun.--Clyde (talk) 19:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Your first suggestion implies that a lot of this material deserves its own article, which it doesn't since most of it is fancruft. But thank you for your other suggestions! :) Judgesurreal777 23:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The long road to GA
This will be difficult to attain GA because of the Manga section... I can't find any reliable, non-commercial sources for Legend of Mana (haven't checked Princess of Mana yet). I tried to search for Japanese sources, but with no success as I can't speak Japanese and Shiro Amano's own official website has a 403 link error... :( Kariteh 08:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I read the first 2 book of the manga, but it is a long time ago and don't remember any of it. What kind of sources do you need? If you just want to have a source proving they existed, will amazon japan's page be helpful?


 * Legend of Mana 01
 * Legend of Mana 02
 * Legend of Mana 03
 * Legend of Mana 04
 * Legend of Mana 05
 * MythSearchertalk 11:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The section needs a proof that they exist, but commercial sites like Amazon are not accepted apparently: External links, ISBN.
 * There was a similar case with the Chrono Trigger promo anime; it's an obscure Japanese-only stuff but I managed to source it because it has an official site at Production I.G. I can't find the official site for the Legend of Mana manga though, if there's any. It's a shame because this manga is not even Japanese-exclusive, unlike the CT promo anime. Kariteh 14:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that depends on what you want to source. If you are just sourcing that they existed, the amazon links are not external links but only there to proof its commerciality.  If you are sourcing what the story is, then the amazon link is definitely not a good source. MythSearchertalk 15:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, found a Sword of Mana comic instead of Legend... I'll keep searching a bit. Kariteh 19:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * lol, You just found a perfect source for the comics, this is created by the same artist: 「新約 聖剣伝説」が待望のコミック化！　「聖剣伝説レジェンドオブマナ」の天野シロを筆頭とした実力派作家たちの... = The longed for comicize "Shinyaku Seiken Densetsu", Drawn by the skillful Shiro Amano who did "Seiken Densetsu Legend of Mana".... MythSearchertalk 02:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There's also a link to a list of all his mangas published by Enterbrain. Let's fly this article to GA now, slowly but surely! Kariteh 08:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Archive
This talk page is really really long. I think it might be good to archive any discussions before 2007 and perhaps move the long Mana discussion to a subpage (either now, when it dies, or when consensus is reached.) Thoughts or a better ideas? At around 120k, it uses almost twice as much space as the actual article.--Clyde (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Kariteh 08:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Merger reconsider
Elemental spirites is the last of the game articles that should be merged here. Now that this article has been trimmed down to size, I think it should fit nicely here. Judgesurreal777 20:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Elemental spirits (Mana) is much too long to fit here nicely in my opinion. It can be trimmed to some extent (there's a lot of original research in there), but I'm not sure that even if perfectly trimmed down it would be short enough. In that case, perhaps we could move all these Flammies, Rabites, Elemental Spirits to a separate "Common themes of the Mana series" article... But I think we will be able to make a good decision only when the Elemental spirits article is improved. It's hard to decide as of now. Kariteh 20:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it might be a good idea since Elemental spirites is probably never going to stand on its own, and I am not even sure about a common themes of the mana series article, and if it doesn't go there, this is the last stop :) Judgesurreal777 19:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Merged. Kariteh 16:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * plays a funerary dirge for his article* Ah well. It had to happen sometime. :) -LichYoshi 07:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Flammie
From what I recall, in SoM, there are God beasts(Yes, it is in fact the same kanji as the God beasts in SD3) that looks the same as Flammie. And in SD3, Flammie is called the father of all winged creatures (and is angry by that title since the one we met is actually a new born female) I think these are pretty important facts that should be included in the section, since they are describing the creature's nature and type of being in the World of Mana as primary sources. MythSearchertalk 16:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source that God Beasts look like Flammies? I don't think we can put it if not, because that would be original research. Kariteh 19:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, this is not OR, it is just a script in-game. In SD2(Jap version to be clearer), the Flammie is called a God beast, with a bunch of same looking but different coloured sprit flying in a certain map, which is different from the elemental God beasts in SD3 but the naming in-game is the same: 神獣 (Literally God Beast).  It might be good to get a screen cap from the game, but it is pretty far into the game and will take some time because I do not have any saves left due to the age of the game.  I might be able to find the dust covered official walkthrough, but that will also take a while since my house is basically a library unorganized.  Meanwhile, we can add the SD3 part into the article first. MythSearchertalk 04:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This quote from the GameFAQs SoM script is probably useful too: Hero: I guess Flammies were once Mana Beasts.... I'm going to add some of these stuff in the article, but feel free to correct me if there's something inaccurate (it's been so long since I played SoM, and I've never finished SD3). In any case, it would be awesome for the Rabite section if you could retrieve that official walkthrough: I can't find any "reliable source" mentioning the colored Rabites, and we may unfortunately have to remove them from the article if it can't be sourced. Kariteh 08:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be easy, although the SD2 book is hard to find, the SD3 book is in a pretty handy place. I will give you the details:
 * ラビ(Rabi): 丸い身体を持った黃色いウサギ(Yellow Rabbit with a round body). 常にぴょんぴょん跳ねながら移動しており, 銳い歯を使って攻擊してくる(Always bouncing around and attack with its sharp teeth.)
 * ラビリオン(Rabirion/Rabilion): マナの減少によって出現したラビ(Rabi that appeared due to the decreasing of Mana). そのラビが狂暴化した突然変異体がこの動物(This animal is the sudden metamophor of the Beserked Rabi). いつも顏が上気している(Its face is always red[due to the beserkness]).
 * キングラビ(King Rabi): ラビの中でも知能が高く(Intelligence even between the rabi), 滅多に人前に姿を見せることがないラビの王(The king of rabi that rarely appear before humans). 怒りのパワーで体を巨大化できる(Can amplify its own size using the power of anger).
 * グレートラビ(Great Rabi): 集団で生活するラビ族を統べる(Leading the rabi clan that lives a grouped life), 強力なラビ(Powerful rabi). その姿から威厳は感じられないが(Its appearance cannot show its dignity), 侮れない攻擊力を持つ(but its attack power is not insulting its title).
 * Seiken Densetsu 3 基礎知識編, Monster Picture Book, P.131, ISBN4-87188-805-3
 * MythSearchertalk 10:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks! Kariteh 16:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Friends of Mana's world
According to what I can gather from Japanese automatic translation tools, Friends of Mana is set in the world of Mi'Diel, not Fa'Diel. I can't find anything about it taking place 10 years before Legend of Mana, but I don't speak Japanese so maybe that's why. Maybe these two worlds are related (it seems like there's a pun... Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si). In any case, I took out the sentence about the 10 years and LoM for now since it's unsourced. Kariteh 08:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

GA push
Alright, I cleaned and sourced as many statements as I could in the article. A few unreferenced sentences remain in the Mana Tree and Rabites sections; I'm going to wait one more day and if they can't be sourced, I'll just move them to the talk page (so that they're not totally lost) and I'll nominate the article for GAC. Kariteh 11:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ...Oh, and the introduction could be improved too I suppose. Kariteh 11:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I fixed the SD3 part in the Mana tree and Elemental spirits. The Mana tree is kinda destroyed before fighting the last boss, but in the Ending sequence, a tiny version is seen springing up from the root the Mana sword used to be, so it will be hard to source it is destroyed in SD3.(although a screen cap showing the small one is easier).  And I fixed the picture of the E. spirits, it is Lunar, not Aura in SD3.  I will check later on sources I can find about the Mana tree in SD3, for now, just leave it out. MythSearchertalk 13:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

GAC
Ok, looking through it appears pretty well done, but I have some thoughts as to layout, etc. David Fuchs 13:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * the 'Design' section- design? Doesn't really have anything to do with "design", or even development. I think that the information in this section might be better distributed amongst the relative sections (for instance, the chronological bit put into the lead or close to the beginning, or even in common elements).
 * pictures in 'Common Elements'- with so many, they just appear a little scattered and haphazard. Maybe take out one or two so the flow isn't as jumpy?
 * as for the pics, all have RU rationale, which is good.
 * Reception... don't think it needs its own section either, since this is an overview of the series and not addressing the games specifically. The piece about how it was in the top 100 games, et al might be worth using in the lead, but either way a small paragraph isn't going into exhaustive detail beyond the games as units.
 * Alright, I've merged the "History" and "Design" sections into one named "Creation and influence". I've removed the second Elemental Spirits picture since it was a bit redundant; it was interesting in that it showed the spirit Aura who replaces Luna, but I moved the pic to the Legend of Mana article anyway so the information is still there for people who want to see it. The "Reception" section is now recycled in the "Games" section with also a mention in the lead. I suppose the Rabite plush toy picture could also be removed, but I think it might be important to show it to affirm the necessary out-of-universe perspective of the article.
 * The article does flow better now, I hope the issues have been addressed. Kariteh 08:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good, nice and snappy too. I like that... ;) Just going to look through one final time, check copyediting, etc. and I'll get back to you. David Fuchs 14:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, can't say I'm one for noticing many spelling errors, but no awkward sentences or serious grammar probs. I'll pass, good job and good luck. David Fuchs 14:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The long road to FA is open now... Kariteh 14:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge in cell phone game
Article is a grand total of a sentence long, thought it would make a better whole in this one. Judgesurreal777 00:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. The release date wasn't even correct... Kariteh 14:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

FA?
I thought there would still be more things to add before this goes to FAC, but looking back, what could be added in fact? Apart from the little sentences in the To-Do list that were removed from the article, I don't know what more could be added. Kariteh 08:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Images in the "common elements" section
There are currently four images in this section, which I think is a little too much. I'm not saying this to be nitpicky, but cramming the majority of an article's images into one section does not look very good. I suggest at least removing one of the images, to make sure the article is up to the FA standards. The Prince (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It is up to FA standards, it passed about a month ago and standards haven't changed. Besides, they are there to show what the recurring gameplay elements are, and to make sure we don't have to delve into detail on what each of them looks like. Also, what other section should they go in? They are there because they are next to their descriptions so people can look from the text of the character to the image of the character. For it to be up to current FA standards, it should stay as it is. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about overuse of fair use images. I know the article is up to the standards, I'm just trying to say that this may be an issue if an FA review takes place. They couldn't go in any of the other sections, so it would be best to simply remove one of the images. Personally, I (who has not played any of the games) would recommend removing the Flammie image, as I pretty much can figure out what "fictional species of flying dragons" looks like without having an image showing me what it actually looks like. Again, I'm not doing this to cause any trouble, I just think the section looks kinda cluttered with FU images at the moment. The Prince (talk) 02:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just kinda puzzled why we are talking about FA review when it just passed FA. If there had been too many images, someone would have said something then, wouldn't they? But if you really think it could do with one less, I guess we can nix that one. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, there was one comment on the overall usage of images:. Anyway, I won't take this any further, but now you know how I feel about the matter. I didn't get the chance to comment during the FAC, and that's why I'm mentioning it now. But I'll let you decide what should be done, as I'm actually just suggesting stuff. Thanks. The Prince (talk) 11:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right though that the flammie image is the least crucial image...perhaps we should get another opinion? Anyone else out there have an opinion? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 15:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Intro
I am am Elbarto000 and I have created the page Cronology of Mana (video game series) It is the timeline of the series just to clean up Rumors about when what happend.
 * I believe it should be Chronology. MythSearchertalk 10:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Your page appeared to contain only one sentence, no timeline. Also, someone redirected it to this article because it already covers the timeline information. Kariteh (talk) 10:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)