Talk:Mandala (political model)

The origins of the system are a gap in my knowledge; I've come across hints that it may be connected to the Chinese or Indian systems, but Thongchai seems to say the term itself is of modern introduction. I don't know to what extent it existed under the Indianised states (Angkor and before). I have the impression that Angkor was more unitary, and that the others were too shadowy for us to know much about them. Markalexander100 03:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

the mandala state was regionwide
The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it. See |Mandala: From Sacred Origins to Sovereign Affairs in Traditional Southeast Asia. The article needs expansion. The mandala system is a modern heuristic, but it is used to describe the devaraja cult in the Indianised kingdoms of Southeast Asia, instead of being specific to the region the article describes. The Sultanate of Malacca has been described as a type example of the mandala state. Southeast Asian history articles have a common flaw of focusing on national histories, even though the contemporary national borders are of relatively recent origin. (Anon)


 * I don't understand your point. You say "the mandala state was regionwide"- assuming you mean the southeast Asia region, yes. That's what the article says.  If you're thinking of a larger region, which region? Malacca, the last time I looked was also in southeast Asia.  Your link doesn't work, by the way. HenryFlower 11:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Indian Origins and Citations
"The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it."

Now it points to Tambiah's work. I'll add some citations to Wolters, Chutintaranond, Lieberman's work, and Stuart-Fox.

The whole page might read a little bit better if the essentials were picked out of the defining works. Wolters revisted this idea that he largely created, with help from Tambiah and the Arthasastra, in 1999 right before he died. In the revised edition of his book, he reviews most of the progress in applying the term "mandala" to actual history since his original writing of 1982.

(Jonfernquest 17:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC))

Name change: Mandala (Southeast Asian history)
I've never seen the phrase "mandala system" even once. Naming it "Mandala (Southeast Asian history)" is really more accurate.

The historians who really make productive use of the concept like Sunait Chutintaranond, use the concept to help show that political structure was not as unified and centralized as previously thought.

The criteria I would use as to whether this article is accurate or not, is whether I would use it for a university class on Southeast Asian history or not, and I wouldn't. Why? It has to focus on what a "mandala" is and what it is not. Mandalas are a lot like the segmentary state in Indian history and like forms of social organization in political anthropology that come before the state like the chieftainship. It is not a universally accepted and used metaphor or idea. Lieberman does not use it.

I'll change the name, but the previous synonym will still exist.

(Jonfernquest 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

Cutting and Simplifying
"The term mandala in this context is of modern origin; as it was the standard system of the time, its practitioners did not require terminology to discuss the system or to contrast it with others."

I cut this because it is too long-winded. It's a model of Southeast Asian history that was originated in about 1982 with roots that go back deeper.

"This pattern of power relationships is said to have existed between the states of south-east Asia until the advent of European cultural and political colonisation in the mid-19th century."

I cut this because it isn't true. According to Stuart-Fox (1998) the Mandalas of Laos-Lan Xang ended with the conquest by Siam which was an indigenous Southeast Asian kingdom. Likewise, the the expansionary warfare of the Burmese state (c. 1539-1630) put an end to many of the mandalas in the Shan states.

The contributions of Wolter, Ajaan Sunait, and Thongchai Witichakun have to be made clearer with citations. (Jonfernquest 02:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC))

List of states
The list of states needs revision. Righty now it's just a list of contemporary Southeast Asian countries without mention of Srivijaya, any of the Javanese kingdoms, or historical formations like Champa or the Khmer empire. Alan 01:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Strange parallels
I found this article did not make clear who Tambiah and Lieberman are. Tambiah already has an article, so I linked it. Lieberman at present does not, so I foot-noted his official bio. As Tambiah is cited only indirectly as cited by Lieberman, I sorted out in just what pub it most likely was in. I haven't read it myself, but as it is e-pub'd, I'll try to get it. I've already found out his study goes far beyond SEA: Additional Physical Format: 	Print version: Strange parallels. New York : Cambridge University Press, 2003- (DLC) 2002071481 Document Type: 	Internet Resource, Computer File All Authors / Contributors: 	Victor B Lieberman ISBN: 	9786610160440 6610160449 0511119283 9780511119286 0511071752 9780511071751 OCLC Number: 	252482354 Description: 	1 online resource (v. <1->) Contents: 	v. 1. Integration on the mainland. Series Title: 	Studies in comparative world history. Responsibility: 	Victor Lieberman. This ambitious work has two novel goals: to overcome the extreme fragmentation of early Southeast Asian historiography, and to connect Southeast Asian to world history. Combining careful local research with wide-ranging theory Lieberman argues that over a thousand years, each of mainland Southeast Asia's great lowland corridors experienced a pattern of accelerating integration punctuated by recurrent collapse. These trajectories were synchronized not only between corridors, but most curiously, between the mainland as a whole, much of Europe, and other sectors of Eurasia. He describes in detail the nature of mainland consolidation - which was simultaneously territorial, religious, ethnic, and commercial - and dissects the mix of endogenous and external factors responsible. Here, then, is a fundamentally original analysis not only of Southeast Asia, but of the pre-modern world.--Publisher description. --Pawyilee (talk) 11:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Genre/Form: 	Electronic books
 * Lieberman, Victor B., 1945-
 * Material Type: 	Document, Internet resource
 * Find more information about:
 * Abstract:
 * PS: I don't start articles, myself, but maybe someone will be inspired to start one for Victor B. Lieberman after reading this review at Amazon.com. --Pawyilee (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Southeast Asian political model
Southeast Asian political model redirects to the section that initially constituted the whole article, to simplify linking from articles that want only the original. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

New section
Whatever the heck happened to the new section? Whoever boldly cut it out without discussion better put it right back where and how it was, then come here to discuss why it doesn't belong in the lede. I might agree with that, and could agree whit its being moved to the end, since it is deep history. Simply whacking it out equates to what Vandals did to Rome. --Pawyilee (talk) 16:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * If you take a look at the article history, you'll be able to see the edit summary which stated: "Reverted to 20 May version - this article is about the Southeast Asian political model described by Wolters in 1982. Rajamandala may be appropriate as a separate article." --Paul_012 (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My bandwidth does not allow me to peruse article histories casually. Hatnote_talk addresses that with respect to cell-phone uses similar charged, so I propose we resolve this with new subjects, below.--Pawyilee (talk) 03:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Hatnote proposed

 * There being no objection, I put the hatnote on the article, though I really prefer that Rajamandala be merged write back here. --Pawyilee (talk) 16:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Redirects proposed
The government of Canton now claims our notice. Here, as in every other place throughout the dominions of the Mantchow Chinese, all power emanates from one man, honoured as the vice-regent of "High heaven;" hence the present line of monarchs have not been satisfied with the dignity of sovereigns but have laid claim to the character of sages.
 * Southeast Asian political model redirects here; ok?
 * South Asian political model redirect to Rajamandala?
 * Chinese political model needed? Sacred king redirects from Priest-King. A source for China:

The sovereign of men, say they, "is heaven's son; nobles and statesmen are the sovereign's children; the people are the children of nobles and statesmen. The sovereign should serve heaven as a father, never forgetting to cherish reverential thoughts, but exciting himself to illustrate his virtues, and looking up to receive from heaven, the vast patrimony which it confers; thus the emperors will daily increase in felicity and glory. Nobles and ministers of state should serve their sovereign as a father, never forgetting to cherish reverential thoughts, not harbouring covetous and sordid desires, nor engaging in wicked and clandestine thoughts, but faithfully and justly exerting themselves; thus their noble rank will be preserved. The people should never forget to cherish reverential thoughts towards the nobles and ministers of state, to obey and keep the laws; to excite no secret or open rebellion; then no great calamity will befall their persons.''

For Siam, H. G. Quaritch Wales, M.A., Ph.D. Late of the Lord Chamberlain's Department, Court of Siam, Siamese State Ceremonies, and W. A. R. Wood, A History Of Siam
 * Paul_12 neglected to create Rajamandala, so I did it, largely by retrieving User:Wiki-uk's addition from the memory hole; I hope to live to see it merged back here. Meanwhile, Priest-King and its Sacred king redirect it pitiful, having no reference to Melchizedek, who held both offices in Exodus, but who recommended to his son-in-law Moses that functions of the two offices be separated (though without calling for the non-priest function be called king. No mention is made that, for most of the history of the Emperors of Japan, they were priests, not rulers. Jaguars in Mesoamerican cultures only alludes to a priestly class called Jaguars, and does not adequately explain that Jaguars also represent the night-time sky - and by extension, Heaven. It does allude to kings crossing the line, to represent themselves as jaguars (i.e., priests) anf fails to say king really translates to Speaker [for the gods.] No, I'm not gonna live long enough to take care of that. --Pawyilee (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * According to me the pages should be:
 * Mandala (political model): Disambiguation page, introducing and linking to the regional pages.
 * Mandala (Southeast Asian political model)
 * Rajamandala


 * Redirects:
 * Mandala (Southeast Asian political model)
 * Mandala (South Asian political model)
 * Wiki-uk (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Moved this article to Mandala (Southeast Asian history); disambiguation is at Mandala (disambiguation). --Paul_012 (talk) 10:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

disambiguation inadequate
Today's disambiguation does not afford a fix the the very first complaint on this talk page, which can best be resolved by not being ambiguous in the first place. Merge Rejamandala back here where it belongs. I would put it last as the historical precedent, but write now this is costing me time AND money better spent elsewhere, the same reason I bailed out on trying to disambiguate the two different varieties of Banyan merchants related only by a word used in India for merchants and for the Hindu merchant caste that does not include merchants descended from merchants who were merchants before there was a caste system, or a Manadala political model. --Pawyilee (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 16 July 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/ c 16:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Mandala (Southeast Asian political model) → Mandala (political model) – As above, "Mandala" used to refer to two different political systems. One of the pages (Rajamandala) has been created but this page hasn't been moved back to reflect WP:DISAM 68.150.86.232 (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Support - As per WP:DISAM rationale stated by the anon above. - Alternativity (talk) 02:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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