Talk:Manga Kenkanryu/Archive 1

copyvio
The first paragraph of the "Main issues" section appears to come from an article by Norimitsu Onishi written for the New York Times (added during the 15:28, 11 March 2006 222.233.205.227 edit). --Tokek 11:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What? Someone has ruined this article with POV arguments
What is this with Japan always thinking they're always superior?

""The Hate Korea Wave" portrays Koreans and Chinese as base peoples, advocating confrontation with them."

I have read it. Nowhere does it portray Koreans and Chinese as "base peoples". Nor does it "advocate confrontation".

"The book says South Korea owes its current success to Japanese colonialism and describes China as the "world's prostitution superpower".

There is one line which mentions that Korea could not have reached its current level of development without the public goods left behind when Japan lost WW2. As for calling China the "world's prostitution superpower", it does not. No such sentence exists in The Hate Korea Wave. China and Chinese people are not even a subject in this comic, for that matter.

". Much of Japan's history in the last century and a half has been guided by the goal of becoming more like the West and less like Asia and the book, perhaps inadvertently, betrays Japan's conflicted identity: longstanding feelings of inferiority toward the West and superiority toward the rest of Asia. For example, the Japanese characters in the book are drawn with big eyes, blond hair, and Caucasian features; the Koreans are drawn with black hair, narrow eyes and very Asian features."

Not true. This is a black and white comic. No character in this comic has blond hair - all characters have either black hair or slightly dyed brown hair, as is popular in Japan. Differences in hair color are designed to assist in telling the characters apart.

"China and South Korea's rise to challenge Japan's position as Asia's economic, diplomatic and cultural leader has been inspiring renewed xenophobia against them, especially amongst the rising class of unemployed young Japanese."

More China? The comic has nothing to do with China. As for "renewed xenophobia" being inspired among "unemployed young Japanese", how about some proof?

"The reality that South Korea had especially emerged as a rival hit many Japanese with full force in 2002, when the countries were co-hosts of soccer's World Cup and South Korea advanced further than Japan. Television broadcasts from South Korea during the tournament showed that the country had surpassed Japan in some aspects of technology such as mobile phones and high-speed Internet. At the same time, the so-called Korean Wave (television dramas, movies and music from South Korea) swept Japan and the rest of Asia, often displacing Japanese pop cultural exports."

So what? This is purely POV. Why do Koreans want to come in and try to change every article on the English version of wikipedia to reflect their ethnic nationalism?

UPDATE: I am not very experienced with wikipedia, but this article has been vandalized. Ryosuke, if you can see this, please revert it to the Main Issues that you wrote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shakuhachi (talk • contribs).


 * What you say may very well be true, but such generalizing comments like: "So what? This is purely POV. Why do Koreans want to come in and try to change every article on the English version of wikipedia to reflect their ethnic nationalism?" reflect very badly on any point you're trying to make. In short, you sound racist. So knock it off.

My reply to the above: Knock what off? This is the talk section, I havent made any changes to the main body of the text (although I will if someone else does not). I write "So what" in response to something that is pure opinion, and contains numerous statements that are completely unsupported. As for me sounding racist, Koreans trying to change English articles to support the Korean viewpoint on wikipedia is a very well known problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shakuhachi (talk • contribs).


 * "...Korean viewpoint on wikipedia is a very well known problem..." Do you have any stats/surveys on this? This statement makes no impact in this discussion.
 * Additionally, it seems to me that Japanese Wikipedians are more active nationalists than Koreans are. Read the very early versions of Dokdo/Takeshima article. It sounds very very very Japanese-sided. So I changed it. Also read several early versions of the Sea of Japan naming dispute article. It sounds very very very Japanese. I changed it too, old sports.
 * And the very existence of this manga is the proof of the Japanese nationalism.
 * I am not surprised to see those POV statements criticizing this manga with those generalized, unreliable comments. This manga is outrageous in the first place. It deserves such comments.

(Wikimachine 18:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC))


 * "...Korean viewpoint on wikipedia is a very well known problem..." Do you have any stats/surveys on this? This statement makes no impact in this discussion.

I dont believe there are any organisations compiling these kinds of statistics, but in your profile, you admit it yourself.


 * I main objective in the English version of Wikipedia is to promote Korean history and culture, since I am one myself. I believe that working on Korean version of Wikipedia is not as meaningful as working on the English version because this is the international language and more people will learn about Korea through the English version than they would through the Korean version.

That is exactly the kind of problem I am talking about. You are trying to use wikipedia to "promote Korean history and culture", and certainly Korean viewpoints.


 * So writing about Korean history and culture automatically implies promoting a Korean bias? My, aren't you quick to jump to conclusions.--71.112.234.168 03:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not surprised to see those POV statements criticizing this manga with those generalized, unreliable comments. This manga is outrageous in the first place. It deserves such comments.

Just because you consider the manga to be "outrageous" does not mean untruthful statements should be written about it on wikipedia, whether you think it "deserves such comments" or not.

By the way, there is still no citation for this sentence in the main issues section.


 * "The Hate Korea Wave" portrays Koreans and Chinese as base peoples, advocating confrontation with them. The book says South Korea owes its current success to Japan and describes China as the "world's pirating king"

No such information or quotes are to be found in Kenkanryu. Shakuhachi 06:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I edited out most of the POV, but it's kinda obvious that the content and subject matter of the manga speaks for itself. 66.229.182.113 05:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I really can't believe the Japanese people imply this to their own culture of comics, just to insult South Korea, have not the Japanese people gotten greedy enough to steal more than 70,000 ancient Korean artifacts in the Japanese invasion of Korea??? Plus, to add to that, the Japanese people are getting more arrogant, thinking that they, themselves are too superior to be Asian. This is just making the relationship with Korea, and the rest of Asia's ( majority of SE and E Asia)with Japan's worst, and worst.

Are Japanese people that desperate to such things? I viewed Japan positively until I found out about this. If they think they're the genuine superpower of Asia, why don't they leave Korea and China alone? Oh that's right, they realize Korea and China are quickly catching up, even surpassing Japan in some areas so the best they could come up with is writing a manga that says BS like "Without us, you would never have been civilized."

By the way, it said somewhere, if I'm not wrong, that Japanese media view Koreans positively while Korean media view Japanese maliciously or something close to that. Is that supposed to be a joke? I'm not even sure if Japan EVER viewed any nation other than themselves positively. Ask any unbiased knowledgeable person which media creates more hatred amongst nations, Korea or Japan.

Yea, we know Japan is wealthy and a superpower country but do you see U.S. or Germany telling them "Hey Thank us for producing you with ideas, which you have borrowed to cultivate your nation"? This book's intention is basically to promote the theme "Korea's civilization could not have come through Japan and their development is nothing to be boasted about" Japan is the same country that says "Hey Korea why are you copying our culture?" Go take a look at mirror first. If we were to create a slideshow that presents how much you have copied the West over the years, I guarantee you it would take a good amount. Japan should be among the last nation to be criticizing others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mit923 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "BS like "Without us, you would never have been civilized." Heh, ain't it funny how most of Korean nationalist arguments on wikipedia are exactly the same BS? Just read any random talk page about any random Japan-related topic, and you'll come across a comment like: "Well, Korea taught Japan how to grow rice!!1!" Heck, no need to go to other pages, you make a strikingly similar argument yourself.
 * Listen, this is controversial, I agree. It seems to be a distasteful comic, to say the least. And certainly, a lot of people are touchy about it. But it seems like you never even read the damn thing, and are just spewing talk-points. That's not good policy. Also, in regard to editing articles regarding one's country (per a poster higher on): personaly, I don't do that (or at least try to avoid it), since I realise - have realised so while browsing wiki, in fact - that someone who was born and raised in a country will, while having more extensive knowledge of it, also inevitably have a skewed view of it, without even knowing it. Think of it as a grander version of the reason why editing articles about oneself is discouraged. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

anime
is there by any chance this manga will be turned into anime. If it does, that'd be great! 203.217.7.66 12:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I seriously doubt it.--Ryoske 23:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So do I, if this manga is to be an anime, I believe this issue will get even worst. Noting that this manga has already made things for the worst.


 * Heh, this pile of shit trash paper even has the slightest chance of being made into an anime?
 * Starshade17 (talk) 13:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

copyvio
"translated from official website" is a copyvio?--Zoradish 15:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed the large segments of copyvio text that were translated directing from a Japanese-language web site. -- Aguerriero  ( talk ) 14:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is an idea...
How about limiting descriptions of the content to those people that have actually read the manga? How can someone come here, have never read it, and give details about the content? That is how we can still have a quote saying "China is the worlds pirating king", a quote that definitely does not exist in the manga.

I find it very, very difficult to understand the mentality of people that think they can have an informed opinion without ever having read the manga. Shakuhachi 05:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't agree with you more!

No one can criticize the book itself
All you Wikipedians here can do is to watch our "weak points" and despise it. You can't controvert the contents of this book.

That's your limit.（ ´,_ゝ｀）PU


 * Actually, we despise it because It's a dumb piece of shit, claiming that Japan is better than Korea and China. Ass. And before you bitch about me being a korean, I'm not from China, Korea, or Japan, you dipwad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The velociraptor (talk • contribs) 07:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I'm afraid someone already has (see also this blog). Although I don't entirely agree with all of their viewpoints either.  May I also remind you to please refrain from personal attacks.--Ryoske 23:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Ryosuke, have you read "koko ga detarame"? I read a little bit of the bits that were available online, and from what was available I did not really notice a "majime na hanron". Could you elaborate on the contents? Shakuhachi 03:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is an interesting review of "koko ga detarame". It rigs true to me because the quotes are very similar to those made on TV by the author. 未読破ですが我慢出来ず, 2006/11/12 レビュアー：	ダミッポス - レビューをすべて見る

第２話まで読み、他の方が第２話を特筆していない事から、他も同じレベルと推測される. 「マンガ嫌韓流」を「歴史修正主義」と決め付ける事から始まるが、主義・思想的な文章を書く場合には仕方がないのだろう. 「日韓基本条約で補償は解決された」は嘘の章 事実は変わらない. 言い方が違うと揚げ足をとっただけ. 「日本が個人補償を主張していた」は嘘の章 「個人ごと支払うから金額示してくれ」と言えば「特定出来ないと思って、支払いたいと嘘をついてる」 国から個人に払うと言うから「どれくらいの金額か一回で言ってね」と言えば「後でもっと請求するつもりなのに一回なんてずるい」 言いがかりですか？ さらに「支払う」という発言は異例の事なので、これらを取り上げる事は不正である！とまで書いてある始末. 「日本は莫大な資産を残してきた. 莫大な経済協力金を支払った」は嘘の章 「多大な被害を被ったので、それを差し引いたら莫大じゃない」 そもそも「多大な被害」とは何を指しているのかが書いていない. 「他の国に支払った金額の方が多いから莫大じゃない」 子供か！ 「湾岸戦争には１３０億、韓国には３億だから莫大じゃない」 「戦後まもなくの日本」と「経済大国になった日本」時代背景を無視. 「経済協力金は貰ったが賠償金は貰ってない」 「事故の慰謝料は貰ったが治療費は貰ってない」と当たり屋のような反論. 一番大事な事. 著者は何度も「真実究明」と「補償」をセットにして使っている. つまり自分の思想こそが彼の真実なのだ！日本が悪前提. 結論は最初から決まっていて、そこに向かう事を目的に話を組み立てている事がわかる. あえて「反日原理主義」と決めつけよう. 反論も一貫して「言い方が間違っている」→「主張が間違っている」という印象操作を行い「マンガ嫌韓流」が嘘を書いていると思い込ませている. 文字数足りなく半分以上消した. １つの話でこれだけボロボロ. でも主義思想の反論本は大切.

How does this gel with what you read, Ryosuke? Shakuhachi 03:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Which author spoke on TV? I agree that the arguments mentioned in that review do not seem like a "serious rebuttal".  I do own this book, but I haven't read too much of it yet as Japanese is not my native language.  From what I have read of it though, it seems to have a liberal/pro-Zainichi bias.  Politics aside, people have managed to debunk errors in Kenkanryu's arguments, however (I wrote a section on the World Cup chapter based on information from the 色即是空 blog).--Ryoske 10:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about 朴 一, one of the authors. He frequently appears on Japanese TV and forcefully presents the Korean point of view. He is a professor at a Japanese university, and is able to make statements against the Japanese viewpoint without any official retribution (unlike the recent case of an English teacher in Korea being let go for saying Dokdo belongs to Japan - link http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200701/kt2007010720352211980.htm ).

Here is the link for 朴 一 on the Japanese wikipedia - http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9C%B4%E4%B8%80

You can see 朴 一 on youtube. Here is an example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7c9QEwPinY He is on Japanese TV quite often when there are Korea-Japan issues. Shakuhachi 01:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The second chapter (「補償問題」は解決したのか？〔検証〕「戦後補償問題」; Was the "Reparations Issue" Solved? Verifying "The Postwar Reparations Issue") discussed in the review you mentioned wasn't written by Pak Il, but by Osamu Ōta (太田修). Pak Yi, however, wrote Chapter 3 (在日コリアンへの誤解と偏見の増幅を斬る！〔検証〕「在日韓国・朝鮮人の来歴」; Killing the Amplification of Misunderstanding and Prejudice Toward Zainichi Koreans! Verifying "The History of Zainichi North and South Koreans") and the Epilogue (「嫌韓」「反日」から「好韓」「知日」へ; From "Hating Korea"/"Anti-Japan" to "Liking Korea"/"Knowing Japan").  I also read your blog, so I am familiar with what happened to Gerry Bevers.--Ryoske 06:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Surp.
Wow. I didn't now that Japanese hate Koreans this much.

P.S. It is true that the modern South Korea derived from both Japan and USA. MSK has a head of Japan and a body of USA. But, before the revolution, Koreans went/taken to Japan and delivered many ideas, concepts, and other useful abiotic factors. And, the same Ancient Korea affected the MSK. Therefore, it is not completely true that the whole MSK is Japanese.

-Please excuse my personal comments above. They are just my point of view.

Younila 03:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, both China and Korea influenced Japan, but there's a lot of hate because of how Japan treated the two nations. Hence, this distasteful piece of crap. O RLY? 18:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think it would be fun reading the book in the original Japanese language? I'm taking a number of Japanese classes at my school. Good friend100 04:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And if it wasnt for Korea and China, Japan would lose its language and most of its culture. A good will never correct a wrong. --DandanxD 13:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Pardon, but what's MSK? As for "Japanese hating Koreans", consider please that (a) this is just one manga/novelist's opinion, and that a great number of people in Japan disagree quite strongly with him, and that (b) a great many Koreans hate Japan just as much, if not more. This is not a matter of spontaneous racist hatred on the part of the Japanese (or, for that matter, on the part of the Koreans) but rather something deeply rooted in each nation's perceptions of history, etc. LordAmeth 14:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan Assessment
A long, detailed, and mostly (upon cursory examination) fair and balanced treatment. Needs a ton of clean-up however. LordAmeth 14:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)