Talk:Mangalorean Catholics/Archive 1

Konkani Wikipedia
Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006.

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones.

We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts.

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D&#39;Souza 05:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Please contribute
All Mangalorean Catholics, please contribute towards this page. I really don't know whether my text meets encyclopedic standards or no. Neither do I know whether the references meet the standards. Whwtever I am doing is just to expand the page. Please improve the page. Since there is no discussion, I don't know what is right and what is wrong. Kensplanet (talk) 14:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Good Work Ken. This page reall needed some work and you have done a good job. A suggestion: why not remove the surnames part. I feel it is really unnecessary as it includes a broad range of Lusitanic surnames and does not add anything of value . Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 10:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I have removed it.Kensplanet (talk) 11:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Please Refer
I suggest editors to refer to the below mentioned articles since they all are featured articles. We should try to emulate these articles on People. Our Article should be somewhere near these articles...............Kensplanet (talk) 11:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Azerbaijani people
 * Iranian peoples
 * Pashtun people
 * Taiwanese aborigines
 * Tamil people


 * Well, we disagree on a lot of points, so let me list out each item and my points so you can ad your comments there:

|popplace The articles you have pointed to are good but the situaltions arent the same. For instance :
 * 1) Do we have exact figures for the population of Mangalorean Catholics in each country? The actual numbers are miniscule. The total number of Indians in USA is less than 1 %. forget counting Magaloreans.
 * So what do U recommend. Can U show me the template here on the talk page.====Kensplanet (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) Mangaloreans have migrated to practically every country that has a better GDP than India(and I am sure there are plenty of them!). Cna we list them all? There are a few in Karachi too!
 * 2) Unlike Tamil people who have been present in Singapore, Malaysia etc for centuries and have become part and parcel of the local life and culture, in most places Manglaoreans are at most 2nd generation migrants. Their numbers and concentrations do not have a significant impact on the regions outside the west coast of India.
 * 3) Lastly as far as POV is concerned mentioning India would give the cursory reader the impression that they are spread all over India. And how many non_mangaloreans or non-Konkanis would read this article anyway. If someone is intersted they will take the trouble to find out what Canara is. Most foreigners dont know where Mumbai is!! Forget that most Americans cannot point out where Iraq is on a blank map! Like we say in the IT industry: You can make a program bug-free but you can't make it idiot proof :-) --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The article Roman Catholicism in Managlore has to be seperated from this article. They aren't meant to be the same. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Completely Agree.... Roman Catholicism in Mangalore and Mangalorean Catholics are totally different.====Kensplanet (talk) 07:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

& While the surnames section was removed for good, I feel the localized names is good. The notable peoples sectionshould stay. It is present in most articles about communities. However it needs to be reviewed from time to time to weed out non-notable entires. Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK I am adding both. But however please do not allow it to have subsections,--Kensplanet (talk) 08:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

& Three notable sies mention Kasargod as a part of Mangalore diocese. No differnetiation is made between Kasargod taluka and district. the article clearly states Konkani speaking catholics and not others(including Tulu Protestants in M'lore). If someone makes assumptions, it is not our problem. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely agree the entire Kasargod district comes under the Mangalore Diocese. But the problem is whether can we call the Catholics of Kasargod as Mangalorean Catholics. There is no mention anywhere that Catholics under the Mangalore Diocese are Mangalorean Catholics. If we include all the Catholics of Kasargod, then we are including even the Malyalee Catholics of Kasargod. Kerala has a huge (arounfd 20%) Xtians. Protestants are not our concern................Kensplanet (talk) 08:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggested new intro paragraph
Friends, since this page seems to be the work of a small group of dedicated people, I hesitate to come in and make significant edits. But the opening paragraph, I feel, needs work. The editorial tone is not neutral enough, and I'm not certain that the facts are flowing in a logical order.

Here's a draft of a new introductory paragraph -- still needs work, but I believe that this kind of tone is what's appropriate.

Mangalorean Catholics (Konkani: Kodialche Katholik) are Catholics from the Mangalore Region of India which consists of the present South Canara and Udupi districts. They are Konkani people belonging to the Konkani ethnicity; their mother tongue is Konkani. They are the descendants of Goan Catholics who fled Goa during the Portuguese-Maratha Wars and the Goa Inquisition. The history and existence of Mangalorean Catholics in Mangalore dates back to the 15th century. Today, a large Mangalorean Catholic diaspora is scattered across the globe, with emigrant communities in Arab Gulf nations and Anglosphere still closely tied to Mangalore culturally and traditionally.

Hope this helps. God bless.

--Athansor (talk) 23:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree Words like "bastions" etc dont sound encyclopeadic.--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 06:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. The Lead In has been modified. Thank you for your suggestions.Kensplanet (talk) 08:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Review
I can see that a lot of work has been put into this article, but I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to list it as a GA. Having assessed the article against the good article criteria there are three problems I think:


 * There are many unreferenced sections. The Origins subsection, for instance, is completely unreferenced. As a rule of thumb I would expect to see at least one citation per paragraph.


 * Weasel and peacock words:
 * "This migration is suppposed to be one of the major contributions for the Mangalorean Catholic community." Who says so? "A recent cultural event held by them had entered the Guinness Book of World Records by creating an astounded continuous singing record for 40 hours." Who's astounded?
 * "During the 15th century, the Portuguese were not successful in establishig their presence in Mangalore due to the ardous resistance from the valiant Vijayanagara ruler Krishnadevraya and the dauntless Bednore Queen of Mangalore Abbakka Rani of Ullal." I'm not sure what arduous resistance is anyway.
 * "Some experts had estimated that approximately 30% have moved to other parts of India." Who are these experts?
 * "Some experts have estimated that the remaining 20% of the population have left India for greener pastures abroad." Again, who are these experts?
 * "It is estimated that there are over 300 Mangalorean Catholic families in Sydney with quite a number of second-generation families." Estimated by who?


 * The text needs a thorough copyedit:
 * "Culturally, due to the forced imposition of the Western culture. Politically, due to the military attacks by the Sultans of Bijapur and the Maratha warriors." Sentences have to include a verb.
 * "Gradually these Christians learnt the local languages of Mangalore, but retained Konkani as their mother tongue, they built churches, organized parishes, started industries and warehouses in Mangalore to promote socio-economic and cultural development in their own way." Run-on sentences.
 * "The consternation of the Maratha Empire was a major cause of the migration of the Goan Catholics towards Mangalore." How does consternation cause migration?
 * "Combining Mangalore which is in India, approximately 80% of the Mangalorean Catholics live in India." I don't understand what this is trying to say.
 * "The St. Lawrence Shrine which is located here, has a rich history of miracules with its origin tracing back to 1759 A.D". Is that meant to be miracles?
 * "The Fried Fish of the Mangalorean Catholics is a gourmets all time favourite." Reads like a travel brochure.
 * "Tipu committed several excess on the Christians ...". Several has to be followed by a plural, for example excesses.

This list is not exhaustive, I have just tried to give an idea of the sorts of issues that need to be addressed before a successful GA nomination. I would suggest listing this article for a peer review, and/or asking a member of the League of Copyeditors to go through it before nominating it again. If you disagree with my decision not to list this article, then please feel free to request further opinions at WP:GAR. Good luck, and I hope to see this article back at GAN very soon. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyeditor's thoughts
I made many small changes to improve prose flow, reduce redundancy, fix punctuation, and the like, and I removed the date autoformatting from the main text. I read the peer review before I started, and it includes several good suggestions not covered by this copyedit. After you make the changes suggested by the peer reviewer, another copyedit by an entirely different editor would move you in the direction of GA. I have a couple of other thoughts. Does the father of the bridegroom give away the bride? Or is it the father or guardian of the bride? (See "Traditions and festivals".) Why is Joachim Alva in the infobox? His importance does not seem to be stressed in the text. The table of names lists seven for men and only one for women. Since the population is probably split about 1 to 1, the 7 to 1 ratio in the table looks like POV. I might suggest four of each. Finetooth (talk) 04:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Further comments

 * This sentence is confusing-Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians. British general Arthur Wellesley helped 10,000 of them return to Mangalore and resettle on their lands. According to British Government records, 20,000 died on the march to Srirangapatna, and 21,000 women and 9,000 men were converted to Islam. Did the 21,000 women and 9000 men who were converted, die after conversion?
 * No, they didn't die. They were allowed to practise Islam and settle there. Their descendants are even found today. Kensplanet (talk) 14:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed alive. So the new sentence reads as Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians. Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians.


 * I dont think you should discuss recent events in this article because a few months from now, it wont be recent anymore.Recent events related to Mangalorean Catholics that took place in Mangalore, and made national newspaper headlines were the occasional attacks on Christian churches in September 2008.
 * Removed the word Recent. Kensplanet (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you should create a seperate paragraph titled "Persecution of Mangalorean Catholics" instead of scattering the issue over various parts of the article. This way, you can consolidate the section with suitable citations.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * But these are not pesecutions. These are just attacks by some foolish vested interests. These cannot be compared with Tippu's persecutions. Kensplanet (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The architecture of Mangalorean Catholics has strong Mangalorean, Italian, and Portuguese influences. Their Mangalore tiles are considered to be the most notable contribution to the world. Does this sentence mean that Mangalorean catholics discovered the making of Mangalorean tiles? Are there any notable architects from the community who pioneered the making of these tiles? Any such info would help throw more light on the subject.
 * Well, I am not sure who introduced Mangalore tiles. Perhaps it may be the Germans or Mangalorean Catholics. But however, the first Indian tile factory, which produced Mangalore tiles, the Albuquerque tile factory was started in Mangalore by Pascal Albuquerque, a Mangalorean Catholic, at Pane mangalore in 1868. Kensplanet (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The usage of several web pages such as will be questioned if this article goes for review. Refrain from using too many web sources, and if you do, make sure the sources references reliable books. A few web sources is ok, if it only strengthens existing book citations or cites topics that are non-controversial. Some of the web links also appear broken.
 * Well, Mangalorean.Com is basically an e-paper (newspaper). So it can be considered reliable for some news articles typically related to the city. You are right, it cannot be considered as a RS for contentious claims. I had already clarified that on WP:RSN during the Mangalore FAC. (Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 17). If you check the claims for which it it is cited, all are absolutely non-contentious claims. Those articles just give a coverage of the celebration of a festival by different organizations. Kensplanet (talk) 15:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a mistake here, the Onpnni (giving away the bride formally by the father or the guardian of the bridegroom). Should it not be guardian of the bride?
 * Sounds like a big mistake. :) I have corrected it. Thanks, Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  13:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The local Jain converts from the fisher-castes were known as Padvals.. The para starts with four castes only, then the fifth is mentioned. Need to correct this or say other 'minor castes' included...
 * ✅ Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  13:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Though I personally like the lead image and enjoy her movies, I dont think it is the correct image to represent Mangalorean Catholics in general. You should use something more general.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well if you observe in most of the ethnic group articles, the infobox image is sustituted by notable group personalities. Done the same here. I have no more images. If you find some, then do add it here. Thanks, Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  13:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have been thinking about this for a long time, instead of an eminent personalities collage, why not have a copmosite of the following images:1) a roce ceremony 2) Monti fest celebration 3)3) a prminent mangalorean church 3) a traditional Mamglaorean wedding etc; basically images about the community life rather than eminent personalities. It will take some time time and effort collecting this photos(after contacting respecive owners) and putting them together in such a way that it does not become a vanity image. What do you think? --Deepak D'Souza 08:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. It'll be very difficult to get images. We can try on cc 2.5 or 3.0 licensed blogs. But don't you think it'll replicate Culture. Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  08:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ill try, although I cannot say how much time I will take.What we can do is contact friends or relatives who may have photos, or make a request on online groups for such images and then ask them to grant it on a GFDL license.We can also ask websites such as daijiworld and mangalorean.com. The images should be such that they do not feature the persons prominently(for privacy as well as context issues). I dont think it will replicate the culture section, the photos will have to be collaged together properly into a single image. Rather it will become a sort of "snapshot" of community life--Deepak D'Souza 09:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's do it. Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  10:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Be sure that it is either CC licensed or public domain images. The Infobox Image can only have free images. Be sure the author of the Image allows us to modify the work as per our requirements. If the author doesn't allow us to modify the work, then it falls in the non-free blanket. Hence, cannot be put in the Infobox. Thanks, Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  13:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Mangalorean v/s Canara Associations
Regarding this edit. I dont think it is neccesary to exclude " Kanara Catholic Association(s)" just because they call themselves Kanara CA and not Mangalore CA. From personal experience I can say that these are heavily dominated by Mangaloreans if not totally Mangalorean. Although Kanara also contains North Kanara district, and Belgaum also has a Konkani catholic population the number of Catholics there is small as compared to Mangaloreans. In cities like Mumbai they have seperate associations, in cities where they do not have sufficient numbers they ususally become members of Kanara associations. --Deepak D'Souza 08:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅. I was a bit bothered that reviewers don't feel that there are many North Canarites in the association. Hence, it is not very much unique to the Mangalorean Catholic community. That's for sure, that the KCA is dominated by 95%+ Mangalorean Catholics. I have reverted my edit. Thanks, Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  08:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

When you say ethnic identity you either give a brief summary of the community at the top or only write the ethnic identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.11.242 (talk) 08:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Mangalore to South Canara
I have replaced Mangalore with South Canara throughout the article. Mangalore was initially used to represent the South Canara district. However, no such term as Mangalore was ever used officially to represent South Canara and hence violates WP:OR policies. Whereas South Canara was the official name of the region. Any suggestions are welcomed. Kensplanet Talk  Contributions  18:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Montage
Can Image:Mangalorean Catholic Ros.jpg serve as a candidate for the Infobox Montage. Any suggestions. Kensplanet Talk  Contributions  11:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

project templates
kensplanet, you've removed project templates..why??

i added those templates because,in infobox,it says Regions with significant populations--> south canara(Kar) & mumbai(Mah) Kannadiga Warrior (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * After a careful analysis, I have readded the Karnataka Wikiproject. But not Maharashtra. Having a significant population in a specific region is not a sufficient criteria for inclusion. We look for how can the Wikiproject help the article. Thanks, Kensplanet  Talk  Contributions  05:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Mangalorean Goans
I moved the page to Mangalorean Goans because in this newspaper it clearly states that the community's name is Mangalorean Goans and not Mangalorean Catholics.--Sanfy talk 15:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * O, So you have found a new way of vandalizing the article. looks like you are not going to budge. Let's see your fate at WP:ANI. Kensplanet TC 16:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Pictures of Actresses in InfoBox
Why are there pictures of two actresses in the Mangalorean Catholics Infobox? They're not part of the hierarchy, and not official representatives. It would be like having a picture of Mel Gibson on top of the Roman Catholic article. Wouldn't it be better to have a more "official" picture or representation there? Even a generic Christian symbol would seem better. Any thoughts? --anietor (talk) 23:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I will change the images, since this isn't an article about famous Mangaloreans. --anietor (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No response doesn't mean No objections. This is not a very popular page. You have to gain consensus. You should have tried Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism. Kensplanet TC 05:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is an article about Mangalorean Catholics - the people, NOT just their religion. See FA Tamil people, the infobox has images of people Not a Om. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Mangalorean Catholicism is not a seperate branch of Christianity. This article is about an ethnic group. Please note Roman Catholic is not an ethnic group. Roman Catholics in France speak French. Roman Catholics in Ireland speak English. Roman Catholics in Spain speak Spanish. So different regions, different cultures and languages. So, you cannot call Roman Catholic as an ethnic group. So Mel Gibson cannot represent Roman Catholics. However, Mangalorean Catholics speak a common language and have a common culture. They can be called as an ethnic group. Kensplanet TC 06:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a standard across all Ethnic group articles to have Images of Notable personalities. You can check, English people, Irish people, French Canadians, or any ethnic group article. All have images of notable personalities. Same has to be followed here. It's a standard Kensplanet T<b style="color:green;">C</b> 06:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Image use

 * Can we use this img in the Costumes section?--<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva, cursive;font-size: 15pt;color:red">Sanfy <span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva, cursive;font-size: 12pt;color:red">talk 13:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the Image. But it cannot be added. There are several reasons..... Reason 1: Although Commons allows CC licensed images to be uploaded, but there's also something like personality infringement rights. Apart from Flickr, you also have to request permission from the 3 people standing there. The permission should clearly state that they have no problem with the Image being used for Wikipedia. This has to be done since all our Images are free and can be used by anyone. Ofcourse, this may not be valid for notable personalities. Reason 2: It's not neutral. The Image gives the reader the feeling that all Mangalorean Catholic brides wear white sarees, which is surely not the case. For example, in a New York City article, you cannot have the Image of a slum, with the caption saying that "A very small percentage of poor people live in Slums." This gives the reader a feeling that NYC is a poor city. All know that NYC is one of the richest cities of the world. Reason 3: It's not a Mangalorean Catholic wedding. It's an Indian wedding, which by no means, can be assumed as a M'lorean Catholic one. We must stick only and only with M'lorean Catholic wedding Images. No assumptions, approximations allowed. It just enhances the encyclopaedability of the article. Anyway, is it a Mangalorean Catholic wedding? Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 14:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right. No assumptions on my side, pls read Faces of Goa, p.360. The authors says that Mangalorean Catholic brides wear a white sari on their wedding. Confusion? Yes I too am confused that it could be a Goan Catholic or Mayali Catholic wedding as the family has "Saraswati's Children" oriented features.--<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva, cursive;font-size: 15pt;color:red">Sanfy <span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva, cursive;font-size: 12pt;color:red">talk 14:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if the author says then it has to be true, since Larsen is an expert on such topics. It may perhaps be practised by some traditional people. The assumption was not that the bride wears the white saree; the assumption was that the 3 people are M'lorean Catholics. Yes, they have strong Catholic features. I have 1000s of such images of weddings. But I refuse to upload them on Commons just because I don't have the necessary permission to do so. Kensplanet <b style="color:black;">T</b><b style="color:green;">C</b> 15:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Secular Citizen
What makes the Secular citizen a reliable source? If its reliability cannot be proved, it needs to be removed from the article. 115.184.119.95 (talk) 16:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Too.. length
The article has become too. lengthy. The History section has become too... lengthy. I'll try to condense it. Please help me in doing so. 115.184.119.95 (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Please refrain from adding Kannada script
Please do not add Kannada script here. Please check Naming conventions (use English), 4th para. I'll quote it for you, The native spelling of a name should generally be included in the first line of the article, with a transliteration if the Anglicization isn't identical. Neither Konkani can be represented in Roman script properly, nor can it be in Kannada script properly. These are not the native and original scripts for writing Konkani —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.97.18 (talk) 17:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There has never been a uniform script for Konkani. It has always varied depending on the place and people. Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. Joyson Noel  Holla at me  17:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding other featured articles, let us consider Pashtun people. I can see something like, Pashtuns (Pashto: پښتون Paṣ̌tun, Pax̌tun. You might ask why is the Arabic script پښتون required, when the English script is already present. The reason being, the way people pronounce پښتون may not always be how the way people pronounce Paṣ̌tun, Pax̌tun. Romanization is never cent percent accurate, but is very close to the orginal pronounciation. However, پښتون is 100% accurate. That's the reason to maintain the accuracy of the article and pronounciation, native scripts are always used. But in our case, Kannada is not the native script of Konkani, and is quite possible that some Konkani sounds may not be accurately represented by Kannada script. So, generally speaking, addition of Kannada script doesn't add any accuracy to the page, as it itself cannot represent many Konkani sounds. It cannot offer anything more what Anglicization offers, and hence should be avoided as some browsers may have problems displaying the same. 115.184.40.33 (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There have been several discussions on the village pump regarding this, with no clear consensus. Check Vernacular scripts,

,. 115.184.40.33 (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Milagres church
The image of the Milagres church in this article is of the wrong Milagres church, i.e, the one in Kallianpur, Udupi. Either change the caption, or replace it with the image of the Mangalore Milagres church. 46.184.128.40 (talk) 09:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)