Talk:Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi

birthdate?
Someone added a birthday for Al Utaybi. I'd like to know their source for that birthdate  --  Geo Swan 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It is rather confusing to have two birth years, one from the birth date and the other from the US estimate. Which is correct? Loggie 17:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

page move
I plan to move the page to Mana Shaman Allabardi al Tabi. What i can see the old name is mostly based older primary sources. The new one is based on the NYT's and many other secondary sources. I did a very carefull checking and will move the page if there is no objection? IQinn (talk) 01:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd initially disapprove until we can figure out his actual name, but "al-Habardi" is a legitimate Arabic name. I have no idea what "Allabardi" is, it's certainly not a real name...looking at Google, it looks like NYT made it up themselves. I'm not sure on Mana/Mani, although Mani seems more likely to be the proper transliteration. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead) 16:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This article is a particularly difficult one to determine a definitive name.


 * His lawyers described ugly obfuscation over his name, spending the first year after they took on his case, trying to reach him, only to be told that the mail sent to them couldn't be delivered, because they had no captives with that name. His lawyers accused camp authorites were maliciously continually changing the official version of his name, so they could keep refusing to deliver his mail.  He was listed under three different names on April 20th, 2006, May 15th, 2006; the dates of the two first official lists of names, and on June 10th, 2006, the date of his death.


 * I think basing the name we choose on the name NYTimes chose should be done with care. It would be a mistake to imply that the NYTimes choice was based after consulting experts in the transliteration of Arabic names.  The New York Times certainly hasn't made this claim.


 * You say you consulted many other secondary sources. Did any of those other secondary sources explicitly address the issue of transliteration?  If they haven't they are probably making an uneducated guess -- same as you and I.  The Miami Herald recently republished documents concerned with Ismael Arale's habeas.  At around page 36 it had a tutorial, of about a couple of pages, addressing how to transliterate Arabic names.  I'll provide the URL to that document later.


 * Some people might suggest that we should change all the names to match that chosen by the NYTimes. I'd disagree.  There are other factors, including the simple maintenance burden.


 * Both Chinese and Arabic are widely used languages, with many dialects, that don't use a version of the European alphabet. They differ in tha for Chinese there were methodical transliteration schemes.  I am old enough I learned some Chinese words transliterated into the older Wade-Giles transliteration scheme.  It was a transliteration scheme designed for English speakers.  There were complementary transliteration schemes designed for Francophones, Germans and other European languages.  Mao Zedong was Mao Tse Tung in Wade-Giles.  Now everyone used the Pinyin system.


 * There is nothing link Pinyin or Wade-Giles for Arabic.


 * Should the name we use be chosen with a high regard to the name used by the captive's lawyers or family? Maybe.  Maybe not.  There was a guy with an Arabic name in my Department, at University.  Our Departmental secretary told me how frustrated she was with him, because he didn't seem to be taking seriously her request to pick one specific transliteration for his name and use it consistently, from then on, because she had keep his file in alphabet order within the files, and he had used five different transliterations within his first couple of months.


 * Some people might suggest that since "al" is an article -- the Arabic equivalent to "the" -- it should always be in lower case. Some people always use a hyphen to connect "al" to the following part of the name.  Similar reasoning applies to "bin" and "ibn" -- two different transliteration of the same word.


 * Larry Niven wrote a Science Fiction story about these time travelers who had been told to travel to the past, and duplicate the world's first car. They consulted the references they had available, and, after reviewing their references, they found that no one invented the car, there was no clear point where one could say "this was the first car".  It looks their mission will be a failure, before it really began.  But one of them says: "Well, if we ignore all those other references, and only pay attention to these references the Henry Ford invented the first car -- and invented the automated production line as well."


 * I am concerned that choosing to move every article to the transliteration chosen by the New York Times is similar to the decision made by Larry Niven's time travelers. It implies that the NYTimes chose its names on expert advice, when there is no evidence for that, when, in fact, the NYTimes partially repeats the bone-head mistake made by the Washington Post, and when their choice is based on only a limited selection of the published documents.  They did not review the names used in the CSR Tribunal unclassified dossiers, or the captives habeas proceedings.  Geo Swan (talk) 13:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I read your post with interest and i disagree with your assumption that secondary are unreliable. The New York Times for example has professional translators and experts from around the world. And as i did and told you i compared multiple secondary sources what always should be done. You are right we should not only rely on one secondary source. If you do not want to rely on secondary sources what is unusual. Where you want to rely on? How would you choose the name? 2) Do you think the name now is the best choice? What is the basic for this name? Could you please explain how you came up with the name that is used now? Thank's in advanced for your answers. IQinn (talk) 14:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You have assured us, multiple times, that you checked multiple secondary sources. But you haven't, as the saying goes, shown your work.  Which other references did you check?  Did any of them explicitly state they consulted experts in the transliteration of Arabic names?  In every single instance where you have told us you checked other references you haven't said what those references said.  In every instance you have merely recommended following the NYTimes example.


 * I think I pointed out to you that nowhere does the NYTimes assert they called on experts in transliteration in chooseing their names. I think I pointed out to you that the NYTimes couldn't decide whether or not to shoehorn the names into European form.  I think I pointed out to that there is a maintenance burden with renamings that are not backed by a good reason.  I don't think you have responded to any of my points.


 * If you check the revision history, the article's first name was drafted shortly following reports of his death, and was based on an early transliteration of his name from a Saudi press report. Initially the DoD was withholding the dead men's names.  The rename was made when a DoD transliteration was made public.  That was useful, IMO, because it allowed reconciliation with the DoD's official lists.  Geo Swan (talk) 20:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

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