Talk:Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith)

Lesser Prophets
As a reference, the following text was put on the page and right now it's commented out:


 * ''In this case, the Messenger/Apostle can be a "prophet" if they fortell the coming of the End of Times. Muhammad is said to be the Apostle/Messenger of God and the "Seal of Prophets" meaning that He is the last Messenger of God prior to the End of Times. Bahá'ís believe that The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh come as the fulfillment of the End of Times prophecies and are thus not to be considered as "prophets" in the Muslim sense of the word.


 * ''Each religion is considered as having a series of these Minor Prophets. The 12 lesser-Prophets who came sussecively after Moses; the 12 Disciples of Christ; and the 12 Imams of religious authority who came after Muhammad. It is interesting to note that of the Western Religions, 12 Minor Prophets for each seems to be the pattern.


 * ''Lesser-Prophets are often called "Minor Prophets" and Greater-Prophets can be called "Major Prophets," although the term "Manifestation of God" is more appropriate. The term "prophet" in simplest terms is a reference to any teacher or expounder of religious truth whether they be of divine origin or not. Early Christian teachers were often referred to as "prophets". Within scripture, minor prophets are often indicated by a lower-case "p" while Major Prophets are often indicated by a capital "P".

In my understanding, some of the things presented here are not accurate to the Baha'i teachings. Some of them come down to just re-wording something, but others are more. Here's the issues:


 * the Messenger/Apostle can be a "prophet" if they fortell the coming of the End of Times.
 * As far as I know, the requirement is to have written a book, and something else. Foretelling end times is not on the list. I could be wrong.


 * meaning that He is the last Messenger of God prior to the End of Times.
 * This is not what Baha'u'llah said about the Seal thing in the Iqan. See Bahá'í apologetics


 * Bahá'ís believe that The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh come as the fulfillment of the End of Times prophecies and are thus not to be considered as "prophets"
 * Every prophet, including minor prophets, including Jesus and Baha'u'llah, are all considered Manifestations of God. The only distinction between them is how much light they give off.


 * Each religion is considered as having a series of these Minor Prophets.
 * The Baha'i Faith considers Quddus as a minor prophet, and nobody else that I know of. So this would be incorrect.


 * the 12 Disciples of Christ; and the 12 Imams of religious authority who came after Muhammad
 * I've never heard that all 12 disciples were minor prophets. And I've heard that the first and third Imams were minor prophets, but not the rest.

Once again, I realize I may be wrong on some of these, but if these cannot be referenced then the section should go. Cunado19 15:58, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It's been almost two weeks with no comments, I guess I'll fix this by myself Cunado19 02:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for not coming sooner. I am very busy and have not had time to comeback to Wikipedia for some time. I also have undergone a small surgery that I have had to recover from. Thus, I apologize.

You raise some very good points here about your concern of including some things.

I would like to suggest several things and make some recommendations. In regards to the Seal of Prophets, you are correct, however, let me begin by discussing the issues that you so eloquently have laid out (and yes I am a Baha'i as well :) Allah'u'abha.

Ok lets see: The requirement to have written a book and revealed both spiritual teachings and social laws is correct. There are other requirements as well, but this shall suffice for now. This is the requirement laid down by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan. However, perhaps I have confused the reader, because this is not what I was refering to. You may have heard of the "Adamic Era/Cycle" begun by Adam and ended by Muhammad (although completely closed by The Bab). This cycle is often refered to as the "Prophetic Cycle" the purpose of this is reference to all the Manifestations of God who would "foretell" of the coming of God Himself to bring His Kingdom to Earth. This has been foretold in many different ways from refering to promises such as "Shah Bahram", "Lord of Hosts", "Return of Christ", "Buddha Maitreye Amitabha", "Spirit of God" etc. (of which you are no doubt all familiar with) The Prophet Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) and the Prophet Bab'u'llah (Gate of God) are not "prophets" they are the "fulfillers". Perhaps any article that includes this discussion should be titled "Adamic Cycle" rather than on this page so as not to confuse the reader. The key is the capital letter in the name "prophet". I know that this is semantics, but Baha'u'llah speaks about "Prophets" as Manifestations of God this is not the same as "prophets" lower case "p".

You can find a scholarly article that discusses some of this here (I have seen better, but this is what I have for now): http://bahaistudies.net/kf/finality.html

This entire discussion is primarily for Muslims who deny Baha'u'llah to be a Prophet. According to this definition. Muhammad is titled as "Rasul" which means Apostle of God. He is considered as the Seal of prophets. But, he is not the Seal of Apostles. Thus, to say that Baha'u'llah is a "prophet" would be to deny Muhammad's claim to finality in prophethood. In other words, a "Prophet" with capital "P" is the same as an "Apostle" but a "prophet" with lower case "p" is associated with any one who fortells something and do not come with a "Book" unless they are also Apostles/Messengers etc. Thus, a Prophet can be a prophet, but not all prophets are Prophets. (This capitalization is not found in the Baha'i writings: I am drawing the difference between the common term "prophet" with the Baha'i "Prophet")

Why so confusing: because we are crossing the Christian definition, Muslim definition and the Baha'i definition (Each has completely different understanding of "Prophets" and "prophets"). We certainly do not need to confuse the reader, thus we may not need to discuss this. Although I would let it in the discussion.

The next thing, is the discussion of the concept of "Seal" I will discuss this in my next post.

The point after that is your discussion of "minor prophets" as Manifestations of God.


 * Unfortunatly, the idea that Minor prophets are Manifestations of God is not a Baha'i concept at all. Minor prophets are not Manifestations of God. Isaiah, Elijah, David, John the Babtist, Ali, Quddus, these are not Manifestations of God. They are lesser prophets, they don't bring a religion, they simply build upon and further refine a religion that already exists. They certainly don't proclaim to speak for God or as God unlike the Manifestations who for all intensive purposes are the closest thing we will ever know to God. I can give references on this if you would like. Perhaps this is where our misunderstanding lies.

About the series of Minor Prophets: there is a scriptural source that states that each religion has 12 minor prophets and that the Bab Faith has 18 and that the Baha'i Faith will have 24. For the religions of the Prophetic Cycle, there is a pattern of 12 always. Note: these are not necessarily all disciples such as the 12 Minor Prophets after Moses or the 12 Imams in Islam. Baha'u'llah only had 19 disciples, thus 5 others remain. I myself just recently learned about this. There are many sources, but:

"It is a fundamental belief of the Bahá'ís that Imam Ali was the lawful successor of the Prophet of Islam. After him his lineal male descendants known as the 'holy Imams' led the Shí'ah community until the year 260 AH. Bahá'u'lláh regarded the Imams as the legitimate successors of the Prophet, acknowledged the value of their work in the elucidation of the Qur'án, confirmed many of their sayings as recorded in the books of 'Ahadith' (traditions), quoted several of these in His Writings, interpreted their words, extolled their station (especially that of Husayn, the third Imam) in glowing terms, and referred to them as 'those unquenchable lights of divine guidance' [12-2] and 'those lamps of certitude'. [12-3]"

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 157)

In order to clarify the station of the 12 Imams, I will include some references here:

"Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among you invested with authority." By "those invested with authority" is meant primarily and more especially the Imams -- the blessings of God rest upon them! They, verily, are the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 89)

Note: "manifestations of the power of God" does not mean "Manifestation of God"


 * Who are the Manifestations of God:

"Bahá'u'lláh explained that the Divine Will of God does sometimes choose ordinary people as "prophets" and inspires them to play certain roles in human affairs. Examples include the Hebrew prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Still others have been inspired as "seers" or "saints." Not even the prophets, however, are anywhere close to the station of the Manifestations, Who provide humankind with God's infallible revelation. The prophets are still ordinary men and women whose powers of inspiration have been developed and used by God. They are referred to as "minor prophets" or "dependent prophets" in the Bahá'í writings. When this terminology is used, the Manifestations are called "universal" or "independent" Prophets"

"The immortal souls of ordinary men, on the other hand, have no such preexistence, but come into existence at the moment of human conception. Of the preexistence of the souls of the Manifestations, Shoghi Effendi said: 'The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.'"

http://www.bci.org/losgatos/Principles/onegod.html

The term prophet in the past scriptures has been used in two different ways: "1- The independent or law-giving Messengers like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Muhammad and 2- dependent, or promulgator Messengers like the twelve Apostles of Christ, or Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul. Once again, the understanding of this issue is crucial in recognizing the meaning of "Seal of the Prophets" and Seal of the Apostles."

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/seal.htm

The one indicated as #1 are the Manifestations, #2 are dependent prophets (minor prophets) notice how the reference here includes the 12 Disciples of Christ (this is interesting, because this is not the source where I learned this, but it does confrim it).

Nmentha 06:17, 18 August 2005


 * What a response! Cunado19

Overall Look
This is getting quite interesting. I was just reading some of your thoughts on this page as well as the changes to the encyclopedia page. I must say: the overall result is very well done. I just noted the new changes. You are correct! We may have to add a new page, I will pray and meditate on it and I will let you know what page name I think will be good. Nice Quotes! I was going to put in some of those, but I am delighted with our discussion. Some of the more nigtty-gritty things like the "24" minor prophets, is very difficult to find. I would not worry about that for now until I can find some references. Nmentha 08:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Seal of the Prophets
I have heard almost every Baha'i I know talking on the subject use the same reasoning as you mentioned... that Muhammad was the Seal of the Ademic cycle, and that's why he said "Seal of the Prophets." But I have never heard this used anywhere in the writings, and in fact Baha'u'llah wrote an entire book on the subject and never mentioned it. Baha'u'llah referenced other verses in the Qur'an where Muhammad said that He is "all of the Prophets", as well as "the first Adam." Then Baha'u'llah says that every Messenger is the "first and the last", any one of them can say that they are the "Seal of the Prophets." I think this is the more correct way to deal with this subject, and I can respect other reasonings if they have references.

To make edits on this subject I suggest we use Bahá'í_Faith_and_World_Religions. Cunado19 03:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Bahaullah says this in a tablet to shahabadi: that Muhammad is last messenger and prophet.

Minor, Lesser, Dependent, Follower (P)prophets
Just to lay down some terminology...
 * Manifestation, Prophet, Messenger, Independent, Universal, Greater, Founder, and others all mean the same thing. Includes Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, etc.
 * minor prophet, prophet, follower, lesser, dependent, and others all mean the same thing. Who is included is discussed here.

Yes I agree the terminology can be very confusing, and if we want to go into much detail I think it needs its own page. Maybe Bahá'í Faith and Prophets or Prophets (Bahá'í), and link it from Manifestation of God and Baha'i Teachings. For now we can expand it on this page.

I'm not sure that I agree with everything so far. I think both our understanding of the Greater Prophets is the same. For the minor prophets, from the references you gave, I didn't see anywhere that pointed to the Baha'i Faith as having a series of minor prophets, let alone saying that there will be 24 of them. I found the following quotes, which after reading them, I'm a bit more confused than when I started. In almost every case, unless the reference to "Prophet" is accompanied by a more detailed explanation of what it means, it's hard to say that it's a conclusive statement.


 * “The Prophets ‘regarded as One and the same person’ include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a ‘Book”. The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours.
 * “In the prayer mentioned above Bahá’u’lláh identifies Himself with Imam Husayn. This does not make him a Prophet, but his position was very unique, and we know Bahá’u’lláh claims to be the ‘return’ of the Imam Husayn.
 * (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 498)


 * “As to the list of the prophets with whom Bahá’u’lláh identifies Himself... their names are as follows: Abraham, Moses, Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus, Imam Husayn...(and) the Báb.”
 * (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 475)

My question that this answered was: Abdu'l Baha defined three categories, God, the station of Prophethood, and mankind. Are the minor prophets in the station of Prophethood, or in the station of mankind? And notice that Imam Husayn is not a Prophet, but is a prophet.


 * “Regarding Lao-Tse; the Bahá’ís do not consider him a prophet, or even a secondary prophet or messenger, unlike Buddha or Zoroaster, both of whom were Divinely-appointed and fully independent Manifestations of God.
 * (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 502)


 * “Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise.
 * (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 484)


 * "Abdu’l-Bahá’s station is not that of a Manifestation of God
 * (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 18)


 * "That Abdu’l-Bahá is not a Manifestation of God, that, though the successor of His Father, He does not occupy a cognate station
 * (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 132)


 * "He is, above and beyond these appellations, the “Mystery of God”—an expression by which Bahá’u’lláh Himself has chosen to designate Him, and which, while it does not by any means justify us to assign to Him the station of Prophethood, indicates how in the person of Abdu’l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized.
 * (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 134)


 * "That Abdu’l-Bahá is not a Manifestation of God, that He gets His light, His inspiration and sustenance direct from the Fountain-head of the Bahá’í Revelation; that He reflects even as a clear and perfect Mirror the rays of Bahá’u’lláh’s glory, and does not inherently possess that indefinable yet all-pervading reality the exclusive possession of which is the hallmark of Prophethood;"
 * (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)


 * "however great the gulf that separates Him from the Author of a Divine Revelation it can never measure with the distance that stands between Him Who is the Center of Bahá’u’lláh’s Covenant and the Guardians who are its chosen ministers. There is a far, far greater distance separating the Guardian from the Center of the Covenant than there is between the Center of the Covenant and its Author."
 * (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 150)


 * "For example, Peter cannot become Christ. All that he can do is, in the condition of servitude, to attain endless perfections..."
 * (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 329)

It's remarkably clear that Abdu'l Baha was not a Greater Prophet. Being a minor prophet is possible but not explicitly clear. From these and other verses I would guess that He was not. And certainly Shoghi Effendi was not.

It is clear that John the Baptist was, Imam Ali was, Imam Husayn was, and Quddus was. Peter appears to be mentioned as not being a prophet, and nothing suggests that he was. If he was the "Chief of the Apostles" then certainly the others weren't prophets. Other than these, the reference you have saying that all the apostles of Christ were minor prophets is from an individual's article, and not any kind of authoritative Baha'i text. At the end of the article it says
 * "Kamran Hakim is a member of the Baha'i Faith. The opinions expressed in this article constitute his own personal understanding and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Baha'i Faith or it's teachings."

I don't see any reference beyond the above mentioned individuals as being minor prophets since the appearance of Jesus.

This was very interesting, if you find more information please continue the discussion, and maybe we can consolidate all this work onto a wiki page. Cunado19 03:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Mahabad
Zazaban, I can't find a reference to Mahabad in the writings. Is there an alternate spelling? Please provide a source. This is an interesting person, but I have to take it down pending a source per WP:Verify "Burden of Evidence".

As an aside, I think there are tons of minor prophets lost to antiquity. My personal favourite these days is Deganawida of the Iroquois. MARussellPESE 16:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * He was mentoned in Tabernacle of Unity. Or at least his Faith was. and Deganawida sounds more like a Major Prophet to me. Zazaban 19:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good catch on Mahabad. Thank you. Haven't read Tabernacle yet, but that would be exactly where He'd do it, no?


 * Deganawida, as gifted as he was, wouldn't have been a Manifestation of God, I don't think, as he didn't claim to be one. None of Them have been shy or cagey about from Whom they received their message; and all have said that the faithful should look for a "return". Nothing is attributed to Deganawida having made these kinds of statements that I know of. Also, being a mid-fifteen century figure. the timing would be off. That said, his message was no-doubt inspired and has had a lasting effect. MARussellPESE 21:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

hmm... perhaps he was a seer. Zazaban 21:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While I do agree that a Manifestation of God would have clearly stated their station and pronouncement, at least by the passing of time, I wish to enquire of MARussellPESE what is meant by: "being a mid-fifteen century figure. the timing would be off". Please explain in your view why a timing such as this would be "off". Thanks. Nmentha 11:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Tabernacle of Unity, Mahabad is not a name used to describe a particlular Messenger of God according to the words of Baha'u'llah. It is quoted as: "Prophets of Mahabad, together with Zoroaster, were twenty-eight in number" (Prophets with an "s") and later "Mahabad and Hindu religions" and "Mahabad and Zoroastrian religions" and finally: "The followers of Zoroaster say: 'God, through the agency of the Primal Intellect, created a man whose name is Mahabad and who is our ancestor'". In Baha'u'llah's response to this, He discusses Adam in the same way that Mahabad is mentioned in the question from Mirza Abu'l-Fadl. Therefore it is not certain whether Mahabad is the ancient Persian/Zoroastrian name for Adam or whether He is simply speaking about it in a figurative manner. Either way, Baha'u'llah does not actually mention Mahabad Himself. What we do know from other places in the writings is that Adam is a Manifestation of God. Another point to consider is that it is possible that the 28 refered to are those of the "Adamic" or "Prophetic" cycle, including all the major ones we know of already as well as Zoroaster. Therefore, while this explaination is not extensive, I suggest that we remove Mahabad and replace the name with Adam. Nmentha 12:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but that's speculation on your part. it doesn't at all look conclusive that he was Adam to me. Zazaban 18:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not intend to speculate about anything. I never said that Mahabad is Adam. Rather, what I hoped to show is that it is not clear Mahabad is Adam or is another Figure. My suggestion to remove Mahabad and list Adam is not because they are synonymous. My suggestion is that we remove Mahabad because it is not conclusive as to whether Mahabad is actually a Manifestation of God. I say this after careful study of the text which seems to indicate that the statements referring to Mahabad were never part of Baha'u'llah's Revelation but rather part of the questions that were asked to Baha'u'llah. Therefore we cannot use a seekers question as proof to support this claim. If I was to write 'candles are useful' as part of a statement to Baha'u'llah; when He replies, that does not mean that Baha'u'llah agrees but it simply means that He is relating to the reader the nature of the question. The reason I suggest to put Adam, is because He is a verifiable Manifestation of God according to the Baha'i writings. Nmentha 08:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

"A further question that he hath asked: “The Hindus assert that God fashioned the Intellect in the form of a man named Brahma, Who came into this world and was the cause of its progress and development, and that all Hindus are His descendants. The followers of Zoroaster say: ‘God, through the agency of the Primal Intellect, created a man whose name is Mahábád and who is our ancestor.’ They believe the modes of creation to be six in number. Two were mentioned above; the others are creation from water, earth, fire, and from bears and monkeys. The Hindus and Zoroastrians both say that they are begotten of the Intellect, and thus do not admit others into their folds. Are these assertions true or not? That wise Master is requested to indicate that which he deemeth appropriate.” Therefore Mahabad was a man. Zazaban 18:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Nmentha. I think we can avoid this issue by just changing it to Noah. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  06:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you please wait untill any changeds are made? I am asking about Mahabad at Baha'i Library. Zazaban 23:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The forums at baha'i-library.org would not be considered reliable sources as they are forums, and cannot be used. -- Jeff3000 23:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Baha'i Libray is one of the most trusted sources of Baha'i texts on the net. I obviously don'r expect people to just post opinions I expect them to back them up with sources and quotes. Zazaban 00:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it doesn't really matter what people at Baha'i library say. There is no evidence that Mahabad is an independent Manifestation of God. The rest of the Prophets mentioned are clearly mentioned in the writings. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  01:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Which, Zazaban, means you need to back them up with sources. I agree with Cuñado and Jeff3000, it is inappropriate for work to be entered in wikipedia until it's properly sourced. "Waiting for Baha'i library to answer", which Jeff3000 correctly notes isn't a reliable source in the first place, is not appropriate for editing an article here. I'm reverting to Cuñado's last. It should stay there until you can provide solid sources. The burden is on an editor to provide backup for all additions.


 * Not that this topic is uninteresting, but it's not appropriate to add speculation here. MARussellPESE 03:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not speculation. Baha'u'llah refered to a prophet named Mahabad. The people on a forum should have as much a right to find sources as people here. Zazaban 04:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Zazaban, the point is that you are responsible for producing your sources. I just bought Tabernacle and I'm not sure that Mahabad refers to a specific person or a place — the passages are obscure to me at least. The fact that Mahabad is also a very old place doesn't help clarify the issue on its face. Please wait until some clarity can be presented. MARussellPESE 23:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I realise, but a lot of people are more learned of this than me and could probably do a better job. Zazaban 00:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If sources are found, then Mahabad can be included here as per Wikipedia policy. -- Jeff3000 04:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to take this opportunity to reiterate that Baha'u'llah does not refer to a prophet named Mahabad, but rather quotes a question from someone else that refers to Mahabad an ancient figure or prophet that is not verifiable. Nmentha 17:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I was suggesting that we include Adam although Noah is also verifiable. Perhaps we would consider adding Adam. Nmentha 17:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think adding Adam would confuse the issue. The story of Adam and Eve is not an event, but a description of relationships. There is also Adam, the first prophet of the Adamic cycle. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  00:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Station of founders of New religious movements
In a letter from the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice of 6 July 1994 some statements are made on this subject. Maybe you'd like to use them. Wiki-uk 16:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Quetzalcoatl
Why was here removed from "Other possible divine teachers?" Zazaban 18:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any source that states that in the Baha'i view he was a possible divine teacher? No source, no inclusion. -- Jeff3000 19:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It's called other Possible Divine teachers, never specifying by what criteria. Zazaban 00:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * All other possible divine teachers have a reference for the Baha'i viewpoint; usually from Lights of Guidance or from Shoghi Effendi's writings. -- Jeff3000 00:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

List.
Why not add a list of all the Manifestations somewhere in the article? It would be much better than a simple reference to the most major ones. Zazaban 15:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the way that it is currently is just fine. There is no authoritative list of who Baha'is think is a Manifestation of God. -- Jeff3000 15:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I realise that, but we should have a list of people considered by baha'is to be Manifestations. Zazaban 18:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * they are already there. -- Jeff3000 18:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Then I'll just turn that into a proper list. Zazaban 16:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Prose is always preffered to lists in pages, unless the page is a list. -- Jeff3000 16:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * there, it's done. fix it as you like. Zazaban 16:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I did, I put it back to the way it was, which is in prose. -- Jeff3000 16:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Lists are much easier to navigate. Zazaban 16:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I think they are disruptive. -- Jeff3000 16:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a list somewhere else in the article? Zazaban 16:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * From Embedded list:
 * "As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. ... Instead of giving a list of items, the significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text."
 * -- Jeff3000 16:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Lists are somewhat easier for studying. see Islamic Prophet Zazaban 16:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That page is not a list, but subsectioned content. Fundamentally different. -- Jeff3000 16:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Then why don't we make something like that? Actually it is a list.... A very detailed list but still a list. Zazaban 17:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That could be done. Someone would need to do the research and find the sources. -- Jeff3000 19:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Baha'i library would be a good place to start. I suggest looking at Baha'i sources, Islamic sources and Sources of the original religion of the mentioned Prophet. Zazaban 20:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

A friend wrote this: "Those following immediately do have confirmation of being Manifestations of God as far as I could find:

Baha'u'llah The Bab Muhammad Christ Buddha Zoroaster Elijah (Elias) Jonah (Jonas) Jethro Moses Krishna Joseph Ishmael (not necessarily the son of Abraham--Ismael) Lot (Lut) Abraham (Ibráhím) David (not King David) Sálih Húd Noah Founder of Sabaeanism; same as Seth and/or Idrís?) Idrís (or Hermes, etc.; same as Enoch?) Abel (indirect statements for) Adam

The following have some possible evidence stating they were: Enoch? (same as Idris perhaps) Seth? (Founder of Sabaeaenism?) Jacob? (per 'Abdu'l-Baha, some food was forbidden during this time...perhaps a law of the Manifestation?)

The following are additional prophets in the Qur'an, though they are only mentioned as nabi, not the rasul of Manifestations (though they could be):

Elisha? Dhu'l Kifl? Isaac? Aaron? (possibly he was stated as NOT being one, I forget...)" I know for a fact Aaron was not though. Zazaban 23:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Aaron was the minor prophet associated with Moses. In Exodus 4:15 God tells Moses "You are to speak to him (Aaron) and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do. 16 Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him." Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  03:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Adam
Shouldn't he be on the list? He is clearly stated as being a Manifestation; He even got a cycle named after him! Zazaban 04:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

regarding some large number of unknown prophets
very indirectly, I beleive this quote supports the idea: ''For more than twenty years this people have, day and night, been subjected to the fury of the Sovereign's wrath, and have been scattered by the tempestuous gales of his displeasure, each to a different land. How many the children who have been left fatherless, and how many the fathers who have lost their sons! How many the mothers who have dared not, out of fear and dread, to mourn their slaughtered offspring! How numerous those who, at eventide, were possessed of utmost wealth and affluence, and who, when morning came, had fallen into utter abasement and destitution! No land is there whose soil hath not been tinged with their blood, nor reach of heaven unto which their sighs have not ascended. Throughout the years the darts of affliction have unceasingly rained down from the clouds of God's decree, yet despite all these calamities and tribulations, the flame of divine love hath so blazed in their hearts that even should their bodies be torn asunder they would not forsake their love of Him Who is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, but would welcome with heart and soul whatever might befall them in the path of God.'' In context this is talking about the martyrs in Persia - from the Tablet to Násiri'd-Dín Sháh, paragraph 220 here. However the line "No land is there whose soil hath not been tinged with their blood, nor reach of heaven unto which their sighs have not ascended." is superlative - and martyrs are associated with Prophets, so therefore I think it's fair to conclude that no land is there who has not seen God's Prophets. Exactly what line to use I life to our mutual creativity and critical thought.--Smkolins 06:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Quddus
In a few statements above, Quddus was said to be a prophet of God. Can someone provide a source to support those statements? - Parsa (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Prophets lists, minor, major, etc.
I just read this article and most of the discussions, and I have to say it was pretty muddled and in my opinion did not well represent canonical Baha'i belief. For instance an unsourced statement is: "Bahá'u'lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad." If this were true, each should really have a source citation from the writings. Some of these would not be specifically refered to as "Manifestations" in Baha'u'llah's writings currently translated into English, and I believe would probably not even be found in statements attributed to Baha'u'llah in other writings. It may be that Abdu'l-Baha, as interpreter, refered to them as such, but the statement would need to be altered to indicate they were Manifestations according to canonical Baha'i belief. Baha'u'llah does refer to Hud and Saleh as prophets of God, but these are not included. Baha'u'llah himself spoke of the station of Manifestations of God "endowed with constancy" in His writings. I would feel more comfortable with an article refering to the station of the Manifestation rather than trying to list them all.

In some academic works discussing the battle at Shaykh Tabarsi, and writings by the Bab and Islamic hadith related to it, the number of "Messengers" (probably analogous to rasul) is given as 313. The number of lesser prophets or prophets in general is given as over 124000. The 313 defenders at the shrine represented all of God's Messengers, with Quddus as representative of the missing Bab. The completeness of this number is discussed by Nabil (Dawnbreakers p.352, also see p. 15). Then Baha'u'llah arrived as the culmination of prophecies related to the struggle:
 * 'The first words that fell from the lips of Quddus after he had dismounted and leaned against the shrine were the following: "The Baqiyyatu'llah [The Remnant of God] will be best for you if ye are of those who believe." [Qur’an 11:85] By this utterance was fulfilled the prophecy of Muhammad as recorded in the following tradition: "And when the Mihdi is made manifest, He shall lean His back against the Ka'bih and shall address to the three hundred and thirteen followers who will have grouped around Him, these words: `The Baqiyyatu'llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.'" By "Baqiyyatu'llah" Quddus meant none other than Baha'u'llah.'

The point is, nobody can definitively say who is major, who is minor, or even if somebody were a prophet or Manifestation at all, unless the writings say so very explicitly. These explicit instances can be given as examples of the type. The number of prophets and even Manifestations could have been very great. Baha'u'llah himself says, "God hath raised up Prophets and revealed Books as numerous as the creatures of the world, and will continue to do so to everlasting." Notice the "revealed Books", which is given by some as a definition of a major prophet. The quote by Abdu'l-Baha given on the page seems to indicate that none of it really matters greatly. It's the station that counts. We as mortals can probably not make the call of just who is major and minor when it comes to prophets. The station is one of degree, and may have more to do with the strength of the revelation rather than on the revealer himself.

On this Baha'u'llah says:
 * 'The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit." ' (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p.50-6)

Baha'u'llah states that "Messengers" have been sent to all parts of the world:
 * "Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him.  He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.  Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.:

Baha'u'llah even indicates that all worlds have Manifestations and prophets when he says:
 * "O people! I swear by the one true God! This is the Ocean out of which all seas have proceeded, and with which every one of them will ultimately be united. From Him all the Suns have been generated, and unto Him they will all return. Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God's creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon. This He hath accomplished through the agency of but one Letter of His Word, revealed by His Pen&#8212;a Pen moved by His directing Finger&#8212;His Finger itself sustained by the power of God's Truth."   (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p.104)

The listing of Manifestations and prophets I think is counterproductive to the thrust of the article which is about the station of the Manifestation of God. A few certain examples would suffice to illustrate who Baha'u'llah categorized as Manifestations. - Parsa (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Your whole argument is based on primary sources which is considered original research and is not permissible. The fact is that most secondary sources that discuss the term Manifestations of God refer to the personages above including Martin and Hatcher's The Baha'i Faith, Peter Smith's A concise Encyclopedia, and the Iranica article among others.  There are no secondary sources that state that Hud or Saleh are Manifestations of God.  I've looked long and hard.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Jeff, my point wasn't to rely in the article on primary source materials. I provided the quotes in this discussion to show that it's limiting to have the "nine Manifestations" mindset, or to attempt to distinguish who is a major prophet, minor prophet, Messenger, Maniefestation, etc. Or for that matter, to make lists of who isn't a Manifestation, even if they are mentioned in secondary or tertiary sources. I find it hard to believe that Hatcher or anyone else with academic standing would claim for instance that Baha'u'llah stated explicitly that Krishna was a Manifestation of God. That's what the statement in the article implies. I don't see Light of Guidance as canonical primary scripture, but I also don't see it as a normal secondary source either. Most of it is categorized answers to individuals and assemblies by Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice. It does not examine and discuss primary source material so much as compile non-canonical religious statements from the faith's leaders. As such it is more a primary rather than secondary source. I've got a whole shelf full of academic secondary source material. I'll see what I can find examining definite statements by Baha'u'llah on who is a Manifestation. - Parsa (talk) 02:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you read how I changed the article; it states that Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha named some personages as Manifestations of God. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Confucius
Is Confucius among any minor prophet narrations? Someone65 (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * He's not. Various quotes mentions him in the same breath as Buddha but other quotes make it clear Confucius is considered a divine philosopher, like Socrates. See to clarify several quotes near the top of . Smkolins (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Guru Nanak Dev
Is he considered a manifestation or a minor prophet of the Baha'i religion?--Splashen (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)