Talk:Manny Ramirez/Archive 1

Nicknames
As I mentioned in an edit summary, referring to Ramirez by a nickname throughout the entire article is bad style; it shouldn't be used except to describe the nickname and its origins. See Manual of Style (biographies) – "Ramírez" should be used throughout. User:167.245.244.2 said in an edit summary, "If you think I used "man ram" too much, remove some of them. NOt all of them. Compare Alex Rodriguez". "A-Rod" shouldn't be used in Alex Rodriguez's article any more than "Man-Ram" ought to be used here. A &#1080; D &#1103; 01D TALK  EMAIL  July 7, 2005 19:37 (UTC)

The only person who still calls Manny "Man-Ram" is Jim Rome and he only uses it in hopes that he may have homosexual relations with him. Zzz345zzz

I've removed the nickname "Man Ram" from this article. Unlike "A-Rod", I have never heard Mr. Ramirez referred to as "Man Ram" by anybody, even casually (and I'm a Boston Red Sox fan). This seems to be a manifestation of the article writer's own confabulation, rather than a nickname for the aforementioned Mr. Ramirez (who is known as just "Manny" in these parts). July 7, 2005 16:33 (EST).
 * I was a bit wary of it, but since I don't follow the Red Sox I didn't question it. It appears to be in use by some people, but if it's not really a popular nickname like A-Rod, well... A &#1080; D &#1103; 01D  TALK  EMAIL  July 8, 2005 21:03 (UTC)


 * I'm a Red Sox fan, and I've never, ever heard anyone call Manny "Man Ram", nor have I seen this nickname in print. There may be some webloggers and/or bulletin board posters who use that nickname, and maybe they're trying to popularize it, but it's not in any widespread use among Sox fans or media.  If someone can come up with a citation or two (e.g. Boston Globe, Boston Herald, Providence Journal) (Jim Rome doesn't count), that would be helpful. --Jerry warriner 14:06, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

MANNY FUCKIN OWNS.

Man Ram was an affectionate nickname used in Cleveland. If you are not a baseball fan and only a red sox fan you should probably not contribute. After all he did have a career before Boston. But I am sure most sox fans never heard of him before he arrived in town.

here are some links: http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ramirma02 http://espn.go.com/eoe/rome7232004.html

I followed the Ivan Rodriguez format and included both Man Ram and Manny as nicknames to the profile. It is clear that a red sox fan is in charge here. Might I remind you that Manny had a career and fans long before he showed up to your neck of the woods. And these fans called him Man Ram.


 * I myself am a Sox fan, but I do agree with the Cleveland/non-Sox fans here. It was indeed Manny's nick-name before he came over to Boston. In fact, it does even enjoy some usage amongst Red Sox fans. The popular Red Sox blog Boston Dirt Dogs uses the nick-name on a fairly regular basis in their headlines. Personally I don't use it, prefering to stick to "Manny", but I did want to acknowledge that there are some Sox fans out there aware of Manny's history beyond his Boston days. Billgoode 22:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC

Just because Red Sox fans don't know a nickname doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Revert battle ongoing
There seems to be an ongoing revert duel going on regarding Ramirez's fielding. One person wants the disputed section to read as a fairly generic description of Ramirez's proclivities for miscues but gradual improvement in the field; another contributor insists on putting in an old (1998) misplay that, uncoincidentally it seems, involves the Yankees and Derek Jeter. Perhaps a compromise would be to insert Ramirez's misplays from Game 1 of the 2004 World Series as a representative example of his fielding problems. This would serve the dual purpose of eliminating a reference that is distant in time and designed to antagonize Red Sox fans, and keeping an example of Ramirez's fielding difficulties in a big game. What say you all? Friejose 19:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Why a Yankee fan seems hell-bent on defacing this article with an out-dated Derek Jeter anecdote is beyond me. The paragraph regarding his fielding was perfectly appropriate before the Jeter anecdote was inserted. This paragraph:

"He is a serviceable fielder, although is unlikely to win any Gold Glove Awards. He still has trouble at times with footwork, his range is limited, but his arm is fairly strong, he has soft hands, and his hard work improves every aspect of his game. Ramírez is an adept left fielder in Fenway Park, as he's learned to play all the corners and angles. He is aggressive playing balls off the Green Monster and holding runners to singles."


 * accuratly describes Ramirez's strengths and weaknesses as a fielder. Littering every players Wikipedia bio with negative fielding anecdotes (every player makes errors - even the famous Mr. Jeter) seems nonsensical to me. For NPOV sake every negative fielding example would have to be countered with a positive one. I notice that Yankee fan Mr. Brian Brockmeyer didn't bother to include a more famous, recent example of Ramirez's fielding such as robbing Miguel Cairo of a homer in Yankee Stadium in Sep. of 2004 (which was nominated at mlb.com for play of the year) or throwing out Larry Walker at the plate during the 2004 World Series. No Mr. Brockmeyer just wants a Derek Jeter anecdote in the manny Ramirez article wether it makes any sense or not.70.66.244.236 22:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * He's stil reverting and refusing to explain himself. Is this what goes on at Wikipedia ? Somebody explain to me why I should bother becoming a registered user. 70.66.244.236 22:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd advise you that the use of sockpuppets is prohibited here at Wikipedia. I'd also advise you to familiarize yourself with Wiki's NPOV policy before you go about making more edits that contain a strong Red Sox POV.  Finally, your claim that Ramirez's fielding has somehow "improved" is ludicrous.  Noted Boston Red Sox loyalist Bill Simmons recently wrote a column about who was more valuable to the Red Sox, Ortiz or Manny, and had this to say about Ramirez's fielding:

"Would you rather have someone not playing the field [Ortiz], or someone who's a solid D-minus out in left like Manny?"

The fact of the matter is that Ramirez is a poor defensive outfielder, no matter how much you want to suppress that truth. You've been reverted multiple times by three different users on this issue. The passage is sound NPOV, so stop vandalizing this page, stop using sockpuppets, and learn to respect the Three Revert Rule if you wish to continue editing at Wikipedia.--Brian Brockmeyer 23:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Brian, I'm glad to see that you finally showed up on the discussion page (with your two sockpuppets in tow - 66.254.232.219 & 24.186.219.123). Wonderful. Can you now explain why this article needs a Derek Jeter reference. I know as a Yankee fan you spend a lot of time adoring Derek Jeter, but you never responded to my points above. Let's have a little balance in this fielding paragraph. Every player makes errors, Brian. Even the adorable Mr. Jeter. I challenge you to include a postive example of Ramirez's fielding ability (I suggest one of the two examples listed above. Or would doing this harm your agenda of vandalizing Red Sox-related articles ?


 * This article is a train wreck right now. My experience is that a comprimise of the two viewpoints can sometimes be helpful. I would suggest that the section in question could be re-written in the following way to represent both sides of this discussion.


 * He is a serviceable fielder, although is unlikely to win any Gold Glove Awards. He still has trouble at times with footwork, his range is limited, but his arm is fairly strong and has soft hands. Ramírez is aggressive playing balls off the Green Monster and holding runners to singles. Ramirez has been known to be involved in several comical misadventures while playing the outfield. While playing for Cleveland in the sixth inning of Game 6 of the 1998 American League Championship Series, he turned his back on a line drive off the bat of the New York Yankees Derek Jeter and attempted a leaping catch at the top of the right field wall, only to have the ball hit him in the back of the feet. During the 2004 season he was nominated for play of the year because of a spectacular catch he made in left field at Yankee Stadium to rob Miguel Cairo of a home-run.


 * Anybody care to comment on this.No Guru 00:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think this is a fair compromise, in that it includes Brian Brockmeyer's anecdote while balancing it (i.e. NPOV) with another, more recent anecdote. As for relying on Bill Simmons for your baseball information, that is a fool's errand.  I like the Sports Guy as much as the next guy, but he knows next to nothing beyond what the average fan knows.  I'd like to see what Ramirez's zone rating or range factor is, and that would give us a truer picture of his fielding skills.  In the meantime, I will change the debated paragraph to No Guru's fair compromise.  Friejose 12:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * NoGuru's compromise works for me. I think it fair and believe it represents the whole picture re: Manny's fielding.  One change I will make, however, is to Wikify to the general "American League Championship Series" article rather than the "1998 American League Championship Series" article, as none on that particular series exists at this time.--Brian Brockmeyer 22:05, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The use of range factor to denigrate Manny's fielding is garbage and completely misleading. Manny plays half his games in the smallest left field in the Major Leagues; of course he's going to be able to reach fewer balls. It's just common sense. I'd recommend UZR or PMR, which are fairer in that they judge fielding as a ratio of plays made to plays possibly made. (incidentally, I don't know Manny's numbers under those two systems. I'd suspect he's still below average, though not as dramatically as RF makes him appear to be.)

Picture
Can we get a different picture, it would be better to see an at-bat not him looking back while the catcher throws the ball back. Random minor comment. Yanksox 00:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Manny's Weight
There is now way that Manny weighs only 200 lbs.--MP123 18:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. There is absolutely no way that he weighs 200 lbs. 204.193.127.4 16:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Like the article says, he wears his uniform really baggy. Baseball-reference.com actually lists him at 190. RedSox.com and Yahoo! Sports have him at 200. Wikitoddia 06:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Manny Being Manny Incident
The following event has been posted - and removed - twice:


 * The Original Incident September 3, 1993 - In his second game as a Cleveland Indian, Manny hit two home runs and a ground rule double. After the double the announcers commented on how he is a tremendous young hitter, but his concentration has been questioned. Manny was then picked off at second base.

First off, the Manny Ramirez website has nothing about this event ever happening. Secondly, after consulting Retrosheet, their record of the play-by-play shows Ramirez doubled and scored in the second inning of the game. He was not picked off.

If this event actually happened, please find it, but check your facts. - Doc502 20:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My bad, I thought it was his first MLB game, it ended up being his first game of his rookie season. i got it sourced from retrosheet. Zzz345zzZ 22:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Can it be added in the Manny being Manny section that in 2005 many accused him of wearing sunglasses (Oakley) with the built in MP3 player in it. basically accusing him of listening to music during the game. there is no real proof of him using the MP3, but he does own those specific sunglasses...


 * Sounds fine to me....sounds typically free-spirited...but document it. Wikitoddia 06:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations needed
Parts of this article are unsourced and i added the {fact} template to them. The fact that Aramis Ramirez and Manny Ramirez are cousins seems to dubious to me, especially since I am a lifelong Red Sox fan and have never heard that before.--Thomas.macmillan 21:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya I don't think they are either. BR usually is pretty good about family ties and they don't have anything like that. The incident with the flag should be easy to find a few sources for since it was pretty widely covered. Also in the Manni Being Manny section, I think the time when he had the Poland Springs water bottle in his back pocket while fielding should be thrown in there. Zzz345zzZ 21:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Kerry Blunder
Kerry saying his favorite player on the Red Sox was "Manny Ortiz" was pretty funny, but is it really germane to the article? It's tagged onto the trivia at the end and makes it seem like there was a political motivation to put it into the article. If no one objects I'm going to remove it.


 * Personally I would keep it there, because I don't think it does much harm. I'm going restore it for now and wait to see if anyone else says anything.   Pats Sox Princess  17:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ebay Grill
Why is this story about an Ebay Grill listed in "Manny Moments off the Field" if the story specifically states "It couldn't be proven if the listing was actually from Ramirez?" Also there's a citation there that leads to a blank page. 68.45.106.216 20:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have removed the reference about the Ebay Grill has not verifiable. 68.45.106.216 18:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

2007 Changes
"On June 20 he hit a solo Home Run against the Atlanta Braves."

I took out this line as it was a bit bland and random, and replaced it with his June performance and how his production has been below average up to the All Star Break). Peach freak

I also revamped the 2007 season section, as it has been outdated for several months. I included his below average year, his strained left oblique, and ALDS game 2. Peach freak 05:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Led team to 2007 World series
Something should be added from this ref: -- 67.98.206.2 20:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't get carried away. Without MVP Josh Beckett, the Red Sox would be golfing in Florida about now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Team

Headline text
Was mann traded or did he sign as a free agent and if he got traded what was the trade?

He was a free agent signing. Tithonfury (talk) 05:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Fail
I am failing this article because it does not meet the GA requirements at this time. The biggest problem is that the majority of the article is unreferenced. Other problems include a lead that needs expansion and the presence of a trivia section. For an article of this length, the lead should be 2-3 solid paragraphs and should summarize all of the key points of the article. Please work on these items before nominating this article again. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 19:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * A couple more things that should be addressed:


 * 1) His last name needs to be consistent.
 * 2) The "Manny being Manny" section would be better if it was converted to prose. A long list like this really breaks up the article.
 * 3) The beginning of the "Personality" section should also be converted to prose.
 * 4) References need proper formatting, including title, publisher, url and accessdate.
 * 5) For such a well-known and accomplished player, some of the sections seem really short. Can nothing more be said about the 2006 season?
 * 6) "in heartbreaking fashion" is too POV for an encyclopedia article.
 * 7) Colloquial phrases like "feast or famine" are not really suitable for an encyclopedia article.
 * 8) Please note that I don't agree with the "trivia" banner on the "Highlights" section. I see no problem with this section aside from a lack of references.
 * 9) The "Miscellaneous statistics and facts" section could be considered listcruft, as could the "Salary history" section. Someone from WP:Baseball might be better to ask about this. GaryColemanFan (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone may also want to look at the statistics section. I'm not sure where they were copy and pasted from, but at a glance I can tell they're wrong. If in 1998 he hit 52 home runs as stated, he would've set the Cleveland Indians single season home run record. He hit 45 home runs that year. http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml 65.189.184.125 (talk) 16:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)unregistered user.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 18:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Manny Ramírez → Manny Ramirez

Ramirez notability is entirely in the USA and US media do not usually use the diacritic on his name. Ramirez himself does not use an accent on his name at either his official website or at his Major League Baseball page.

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support as nominator. —  AjaxSmack   01:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. If he doesnt use it, and majority of reliable sources dont use it, we should not. Compulsions70 (talk) 21:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Career average
Manny's career avg is .312 not .299, there is a large difference between the two when we're talking about a career.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5132/career;_ylt=AkoAun7OWlx2zsmQF7LcyXaFCLcF —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.141.164.254 (talk) 18:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for notifying us. That is updated every so often you know. I'll fix it. -- RyRy5 ( talk ) 18:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is a little biased isn't it?
There is a huge amount of info on Ramirez with the Rex Sox but all there is for the Indians is a short paragraph, I think playing in two world series and the first 7 years of his carear deserve a better description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.241.134.142 (talk) 09:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed this article is biased to the Red Sox era and I think it should be changed many of his great numbers came when he was in Cleveland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.118.176 (talk) 22:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

If you think it is biased, then go ahead and make some edits to the sections you want expanded.--WildWikiGuy (talk) 05:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Article name conflict
I'm not sure why moving the page to Manny Ramírez would require a wp:rm, can someone explain to me and the person trying to move the page there? Louis Waweru  Talk  02:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Look two sections up. It was just moved to the current title a few weeks ago.  If a move is controversial - as this one is - it should go through WP:RM.  —Wknight94 (talk) 02:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahah, thank for pointing it out. =)  Louis Waweru   Talk  02:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Multiple Edits
Sorry for the multiple edits, I was forgetting to hit preview to the updates I was making. I referenced most of the stats, as well as updated the correct format for his name with the (Onelcida) in the correct location, as well as adding in the ManRam as a nickname, which it legitimately is, and it is used by many sports reporters out there.

Also, I updated all the references to his last name in the article to Ramirez - which is what he himself uses, he doesn't use Ramírez, and very few if any news sources use it while printing his name, plus the name in the title of the Article is Ramirez. Just keeping it consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WildWikiGuy (talk • contribs) 05:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Further edits
I cleaned up the prose, and removed some trivial stuff (like Ortiz injuring himself the night Manny set a record), as well as excessive wikilinking of years. I also wasn't quite satisfied with the number of hits of "ManRam" (which seems to be a Jim Rome only usage) to keep it as one of his nicknames. All of the other outlets seem to use "Manny" exclusively. I also rm'ed the "African-American" player cat because Manny clearly identifies as Latino, as do most Dominicans (for example, there were three on the "Latino Legends" team mentioned in the article). MSJapan (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

20 Career Grand Slams
Is this really a necessary section? Manny is NOT the record holder for most career grand slams (although he is second) -- that record is held by Lou Gehrig with 23. With his last grand slam over three years ago, Manny needs three in the next handful of his remaining years to tie this record. Red Sox Nation bias?Theodork (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Florida Marlins
Can someone explain why what I wrote about him was deleted? there was no reason to delete that all. Im sorry that you werent watching ESPN tonight or went to espn.com but whoever deleted it had no reason to. Thanks. Rwhollywoodfan (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a messageboard for rumors. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 05:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I never heard of this policy regarding rumors. I do know, however, that informative important sourced information belongs in a Wikipedia article and Rwhollywoodfan's edit certaintly fit under that criteria. His edit should have not been removed. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 01:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

New team
Man, are we Dodgers fans now going to have to keep up with the obsessiveness that the Sox fans have put into this page? --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 01:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Good luck with that Jamoc74 (talk) 05:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Only for another few months I would guess. Then the Yankee fans can take over editing.162.136.192.1 (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well recognized for his...
"strong offensive abilities." Should the first paragraph *possibly* also address him as being a "loose cannon?" I can't help but feel this is quite notable, and I know it comes up later in the article... but if this were a player from, say, the 1950s, wouldn't his bizarre behavior come up sooner? When he becomes a Hall of Famer, and beyond that... I'd bet his legacy reflects his bizarre behavior nearly as much as his incredible hitting (8th all-time slugging percentage!!). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.87.8 (talk) 04:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move, Part 2
Regardless of what happened here with the vote (or whatever it was), there is absolutely no question that "Manny Ramirez" should be a redirect page to the full article "Manny Ramírez": that is his real name, plain and simple. The fact that "US media does not usually use the diacritic on his name" means nothing: they usually don't use the diacritic at all, for anyone's name. That does not mean the man's name is legally changed: on his birth certificate in the Dominican Republic, it no doubt still says "Ramírez". Likewise, http://www.mannyramirez.com/ is not a good source: on the opening page header of the java intro, it actually says "Welcome to the Official Site of Manny Ramiez", so take it for what it is (and no, Manny himself did not write any of it!). This sort of dumbing-down is what really hurts Wikipedia's credibility: the man's name is Ramírez, and popular opinion does not affect it whatsoever. If anyone needs confirmation from the US media on this point, please check any Ramírez article in the Boston Globe or New York Times: they are the newspapers of record, and they always use the diacritic. SteveStrummer (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I was against this, but now I'm neutral. I just want to explain a point of Spanish orthography, as my misconception on this point was influencing my opinion.  The acute diacritic is used only when the word's pronunciation is an exception to the usual rule, but that is in fact the case here.  As explained here, while most Spanish words have the emphasis on the penultimate syllable (as Ramirez does), that rule only applies to words ending in a vowel or n or s.  Words ending in z regularly have the emphasis on the last syllable (e.g., "Ortiz" does not require a diacritic, because it follows the regular rule).
 * So the diacritic is not suprefluous, and I just wanted to make that clear in case people were thinking that it is. However, my belief is that WP should follow the sources rather than leading them.  We should do what most English-language media do.  It may be worth noting that Manny's new hometown paper, the L.A. Times, does not use the diacritic.  --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 10:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivia?
There is a trivia tag on the section of career accomplishments. This section seems to be a normal and appropriate section for an athlete. Is there something specific in the style guide that discourages it in this context, or should we remove the tag? Matchups 15:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed it, since Wikipedia's own page says "A selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information." WildWikiGuy (talk) 19:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life
In the first paragraph of the article it is claimed that Manny has a son, Alejandro Pina, who lives in Bell Gardens, California. Then under the section "personal life" it says he has three sons, Manuelito, Manny, Jr. and Lucas. There is no mention of Alejandro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albatross48 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

HR total
The HR totals should be eliminated or corrected... In three different spots in the article, it says 521, 524, and 527 HR. 162.136.192.1 (talk) 22:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Joining the Yankees
The current reference is a Spanish language item. The official Yankees website doesn't have it. If an English language source becomes available, please add it. Crystal whacker (talk) 05:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

They would've announced it and they wouldn't have signed Teixeria. He's coming to Queens. That's not official or even announced. That's just me wishing (Metfan722 (talk) 13:18, 25 December 2008

Mets?
Nothing official or reported just my wishful thinking. I hope to god Omar signs him. We'd be BEAST! (talk) :42, 29 January 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.68.58.219 (talk) 05:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)