Talk:Manorialism/Archive 1

Discussion
If a starting-point is wanted, the 3rd century Imperial decree that bound certain agricultural workers to their villa is the origin of "villein". The villas of Sicily, Magna Graecia, Provence, or Aquitaine, and the big ecclesiastical manors that originated in similar villas turned over to abbots, like Monte Cassino... Wetman 21:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Scottish feudal law
This information looked as though it should fit under Feudal land tenure, but that redirects here and it doesn't seem to fit: it's going under History of Scotland and slightly expanded under Scots law, think a version belongs here? (IANAL).. The feudal system lingered on in Scots law on land ownership, so that a landowner still had obligations to a feudal superior including payment of feu duty. In 1974 legislation began a process of redeeming feuduties so that most of these payments were ended, but it was only with the attention of the Scottish Parliament that a series of acts were passed, the first in 2000, for The Abolition of Feudal Tenure on November 28 2004.....dave souza 19:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Land tenure" article
How does this article relate to the land tenure article? Is there much room for overlap? This article seems mostly to describe the system and conditions of rural economy in medieval Europe. By contrast, the land tenure article should be mostly about the legal and ideological aspects of the concept of tenure itself. Also, I noticed that feudal land tenure redirects to this article rather than land tenure. Maybe it would be better linked to land tenure. --Yu Ninjie 23:52, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I've changed that redirect. I'm not sure if land tenure and manorialism ought to be merged or remain separate (though your rationale for the separation of topics seems convincing), but feudal land tenure is clearly better redirected to the former.  -- Rbellin|Talk 18:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Feudalism vs. Manoralism
What's the difference between feudalism and manoralism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Texas Drama King (talk • contribs).

It's a difficult question but basically what happened is by the middle of the 20th C there was a standard version of what feudalism was that only included the nobility. Manorialism expands feudalism to include not on the nobility but the peasants as well. This is briefly discussed in the feudalism article. -- Stbalbach 16:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not a difficult question. Simply put, feudalism was the political and military aspect of the feudal system, while manorialism was the economic aspect. The feudal system arose during the Early Middle ages, specifically in Western Europe during the 9th c. C.E., in response to foreign invasions into the rural Kingdoms which made up Western Europe. Manorialism was created in response to this as it allowed for a rural economy to stay afloat under the protection of Knights - the nobility which swore to protect the manor. Manorialism was mutually benificial for the three classes which resided within the manor: the Lord, who administrated, the Knight, who protected, and the Serf, who labored. To learn more on this subject DO NOT refer to the manorialism (or the feudalism)page as it is akward and quite incorrect, rather, respond directly to me and I'll give you the whole scoop on manorialism and feudalism. ---Dr. Owenby (UT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.191.184.194 (talk) 23:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
The image is fantastic, but a picture - perhaps an overhead helicopter shot - of an existing French or English manor home, with its various sub plots would paint a better picture for your students. Something like this perhaps http://museum.man.ac.uk/images/Higham4.jpg Unsigned, Mar 6, 23:15


 * Thanks for the link. We can't use it due to copyright problems, unless you are authorized to release it under a license suitable for Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 17:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is a mess!
Please someone help to re-write this page. It is so long and complex that it is doubtful that anyone can get a general idea of the "manorial system" is and what it meant in those times. Also, there are too many historical anecdotes throughout. This article appears to have been written by a medieval history professor or ??? How can this be edited to be more "reader-friendly?" BME (talk) 00:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Material moved from Feudalism
A large chunk of new material was added to the feudalism article which belongs in this article. It needs to be incorporated into this article. Here it is: Green Cardamom (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

==Feudal society==

Feudal society is a sometimes-debated term used to describe the social order in the Western Europe, Central Europe, and sometimes Japan and other regions in the Middle Ages, characterized by the legal subjection of a large part of the peasantry to a hereditary landholding elite exercising administrative and judicial power on the basis of reciprocal private undertakings.

The term's validity is questioned by many medieval historians who consider the description "feudal" appropriate only to the specifically voluntary and personal bonds of mutual protection, loyalty and support among members of the administrative, military or ecclesiastical elite, to the exclusion of involuntary obligations attached to tenure of "unfree" land. This stricter concept is discussed under feudalism, and the bonds which it excludes under manorialism. Examples of feudalism are helpful to fully understand feudalism and feudal society.

Feudal society was divided into three clases: the tillers of the soil, the citizens or bourgeoisie, and the nobility. Tillers of the soil were of two classes: peasants (rustici, villeins) and serfs. The former were free men who paid so much a year for the use of their lands, which were hereditary. Being independent of their lords, they were free to dispose of their possessions and might amass considerable property. The serfs were slaves who were attached to the soil. They were allowed to marry and each received a bit of land to cultivate. Each paid a head-tax to his lord. Serfs could neither leave their land nor be removed from it. If they ran away, they were returned if caught, unless they had entered the service of the clergy. Serfs might buy their freedom. Sometimes they were set free by the lord.

Citizens were inhabitants of cities. Since many cities arose after the establishment of feudalism, citizens were under the control of some lord. They resented this greatly. As cities grew large and rich, they resisted feudalism and ultimately contributed to its downfall.

Nobles were of two classes: secular and ecclesiastical. The only occupation of the former was the profession of arms. At first only those who could afford to equip themselves with arms could become nobles. By the 13th century, nobility had become hereditary. Wealth was no longer the passport to the noble rank. Marriage between nobles and commoners was forbidden, or else regarded as a méssalliance. In Germany and France, all chidren of a noble family inherited the title. In England only the eldest son received the family title and wealth, and only he was required to marry within the noble class.

Ecclesiastical nobles were the great cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and abbots. Since many people gave liberally to the Church, the Church soon acquired great properties. The income from these properties was considerable. It early became the custom to put the younger sons of nobles into the best Church positions.

=====Conception of feudal society=====

In the broader conception of feudal society, as developed in the 1930s by the French Annaliste historian Marc Bloch, the prevailing features include:
 * 1) The absence of a strong central authority, and the diffusion of governmental power through the granting of administrative and legal authority over particular lands (fiefs) by higher lords (including the king) to vassals sworn by voluntary oath, also called an act of homage, to support or serve them, usually (though not exclusively) by military means.
 * 2) The obligation attached to particular holdings of land that the peasant household should supply the lord with specified labour services or a part of its output (or cash in lieu thereof) subject to the custom of the holding.

===Common features of feudal societies===

Features common among feudal societies, but which do not necessarily define them, include:
 * 1) An overwhelmingly agrarian economy, with limited money exchange, necessitating the dispersion of political authority and the substitution of arrangements involving economic support from local resources;
 * 2) The strength of the Roman Catholic Church as an ally and counterpart to the civil-military structure, supported by its right to a share (tithe) of society's output as well as substantial landholdings, and endowed with specific authority and responsibility for moral and material welfare.
 * 3) The existence of structures and phenomena not of themselves explicitly feudal (urban and village organisations, royal executive power, free peasant holdings, financial and commercial activity) but each incorporated into the whole.

Alongside such broad similarities, it is important to note the divergences both within and between feudal societies (in forms or complexity of noble association, the extent of peasant dependency or the importance of money payments) as well as the changes which occurred over time within the overall structure (as in Bloch's characterisation of the 11th-century onset of a "second feudal age").

In particular, one should avoid envisaging the social order in terms of a regular "feudal pyramid" with each man bound to one superior lord and the rank of each clearly defined, in a regular chain of allegiances extending from the king at the top to the peasantry at the bottom: aside from the contrast between free and unfree obligation, allegiance was often given to more than one lord, while an individual might possess attributes of more than one rank.

Nor should the medieval theory of the "estates of the realm" or the "three orders" of feudal society&mdash;"those who make war" (miles, knights), "those who pray" (priests, monks) and "those who labour" (peasants, serfs)" (bellatores, oratores, et laboratores)&mdash;be considered a full description of the social order: while those excluded from the first two came over time to be counted among the third, nobles and clerics alike assumed administrative functions in the feudal state, while financial support was relied upon increasingly as a substitute for direct military service. Nobles were defined by the occupation they obtained and no longer by right of birth and are placed in power by the investiture.

The values of men who fought under the first of the "three orders" were first his horse, second his son, and third his wife. A soldier's horse, in feudal society, was considered the price of two and a half generations or two men and a boy. The role of women consisted of maintaining the household economy: controlled peasants and regulating what crops will and will not be grown and sold.

"Those who prayed" consisted of priests, monk, and other authorities of the church. The church willingly supported the three orders. "Those who work," peasants and serfs, consisted of the majority of the population and suffered the most.

While few would deny that most of France, England, parts of Spain and the Low Countries, western and central Germany and (at least for a time) northern and central Italy satisfied Bloch's criteria over much of the period, the concept remains of greatest use as an interpretive device for comparative study of local phenomena, rather than as a blanket definition of the medieval social order.

Reverts
Reverted two edits just now, forgot I wasn't logged in.Korin43 (talk) 19:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Title
With the greatest respect- what is a manorialism. I come here following a bot rename- trying to discover why a reference to a unit of administration has suddennly become an -ism-. Please can we stick to real words. I see this weird hybrid- and work out it must refer to a new religion when the believers worship a manor (as Buddhism relates to the Buddha) or worse a manorial! Come on- title your article sensibly. Manor (feudal) or Manor (unit of administration) would do fine. Please edit a few other articles to remind yourselves how English works. --ClemRutter (talk) 00:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * With greatest respect, when would you refer to "a" communism or "a" militarism? --To be fair, wiki spell-check redlines the word "manorialism", but one ought to Google before complaining about choice of nomenclature:
 * 111,000 hits on Google, including Britannica:
 * http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/362699/manorialism
 * 774 hits on Google Books:
 * http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=Manorialism
 * Including one from 1907:
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=Hl8NAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=Manorialism&ei=X4iISvKeA4vgyQTxqbmKDg#v=onepage&q=Manorialism&f=false
 * I'm not married to it, but the word-construct has come naturally to people for at least a century now. --Yamara ✉  22:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Manor
Currently articles linking to Manor usually need to be redirected to this page. I was wondering does anyone think there could be a brief explanation of "manors" in the introduction, it currently does not explain it apart from a single mention of manors in Germany. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ownership
For land owned outright, rather than being granted by a monarch, how did people come into possession of it? Were they able to accumulate money through some sort of enterprise, or was wealth always hereditary, or what? Was land bought and sold like it is today? -- Beland (talk) 18:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Information?
Just wanted to sound this out, would anyone be opposed to moving the information to do with the origins of Chinese manorialism to a separate section/article? It seems out of place, given that the rest of the article is to do with the European medieval system. Mrlimmer (talk)