Talk:Manuel, Hereditary Prince of Portugal

Request Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 20:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Manuel, Prince Hereditary of Portugal → ? – Manuel, Prince of Portugal (pretender) or Manuel, "Prince" of Portugal — because the title "Prince of Portugal" is used more often than "Prince Hereditary of Portugal" in English source, and so is it in Portuguese sources, see de Portugal" versus "Principe Herdeiro de Portugal". --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose The quation marks seem to make a mockery of the article subject's claim, which is not wikipedia's place to do. His legitimacy will be described on the article, not be ridiculed in the title. It is also never put (pretender) in a title, once again something to be described in the article, not its title. Thank you, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 03:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Albert, Margrave of Meissen (pretender) is a perfect example. I don't see how the paranthese with and the word pretender is a ridicule. We have no need to give any preferencial respect to his claim with his title on wikipedia or we would move his father's article to António I of Portugal instead of António, Prior of Crato or him as (King) "Manuel II of Portugal", a title he probably claimed. The fact is that the actual "Manuel, Prince of Portugal" is Manuel, Prince of Portugal (1531–1537) and Manuel I and Manuel II before they became Kings. The Portuguese wikipedia use the title de:Manuel, "príncipe" de Portugal for this man. --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 03:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Albert, Margrave of Meissen (pretender)" is a recent innovation in Wikipedia and, even if not unique, is rare and ill-considered because unnecessary. "Margrave of Meissen" is a title of pretence that is less than 100 years old. But the label "pretender" is intended to refer not to that title, but to his claim to be rightful heir to the legacy of the defunct throne of the Kingdom of Saxony. It's a bad and novel title, and therefore a bad precedent. FactStraight (talk) 03:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The title Margrave of Meissen predates the Kingdom of Saxony and was used by two Alberts in Medieval times. The label "pretender" is used to distinguish him from these two previous margraves. --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 04:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a novel but unconvincing argument for the parenthetical use of "pretender" in this article's name. Especially so because, as you know, the margravial title, as most of those below electoral rank in the Holy Roman Empire, did not descend according to primogeniture. Insofar as it was a subsidiary title in the modern royal House of Saxony (and thus became part of the family's potential legal surname in the German Republic) it is heritable by all males of the dynasty. Thanks to the 1999 adoption initiated by the late Margrave Max Emanuel, unanimously approved by the other royal dynasts, Margrave Albert's nephew and current rival, Alexander of Saxe-Gessaphe, shares the claim to be "margravial". Since one margrave is named "Alexander" and the other is "Albert" (whereas all the ruling Meissen margraves named "Albert" bear ordinals), for Wikipedia's purposes there is no need to disambiguate these pretenders. FactStraight (talk) 04:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per arguments of Cristiano Tomás. After this move is defeated, however, another will be in order: "Prince Hereditary of Portugal" appears to be neither prevalent historical usage nor correct translation. If what is meant is that he was titled as heir to (rather than as incumbent of) the claimed throne, in English that title (Erbprinz in German, prince heritier in French) is translated as "Hereditary Prince" and never as "Prince Hereditary". It is time that these articles on Portuguese royalty begin to recognise that English has a grammar which cannot be ignored in editing English Wikipedia without leaving the articles sounding sub-encyclopedic. OTOH, it is also long past time to recognise that the names of articles on royalty are invariably likely to be matters of disagreement, so that editors should refrain from these unilateral moves, and submit move requests instead, seeking consensus. FactStraight (talk) 03:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How about Manuel, Prince of Portugal (Crato) or Emanuel van Portugal since he lived out most of his life in the Netherlands and married a Dutch wife.--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 19:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.