Talk:Manuel Belgrano/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Dana boomer (talk · contribs) 14:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I'll be reviewing this article for GA status and should have the full review up within a day. Dana boomer (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * I'm making quite a few copyedits to the article as I go along. Please feel free to revert those you don't like, or bring them here for discussion if you would like clarification of my rationales.
 * The repeated use of "patriot" and "patriotic" needs to be addressed. The term is rather a loaded one that makes the revolutionaries look like the good guys and Spain look like the bad guys, which is not neutral. Because the term doesn't seem to be an official one (rather, it was what the people called themselves), the majority of the instances of it in the article should probably be changed.
 * "Patriot" is about Patriot (Spanish American Revolution), it is not the current meaning of the word, but rather a word that denoted affiliation to specific political ideas. Within its specific context, it's similar to the North American Patriot (American Revolution).
 * Lead, "was strongly rejected by Buenos Aires." A city cannot reject anything. People within a city can, however. Also "When Buenos Aires entered war" - a city cannot enter a war.
 * No on the second one. A city cannot be at war. Perhaps "When the government in Buenos Aires was at war..." or "When troops from Buenos Aires were at war..." or something similar.
 * ✅, written as "Buenos Aires was about to be invaded by...".
 * Ancestry, "Domingo Belgrano Pérez" - is this the father? At the beginning of the paragraph it says his name was Domenico...
 * ✅ It is the same man, Domenico was his Italian name, changed to "Domingo" when he became Spanish (I guess that because of the similarity)
 * European studies, "Quesnay's book Maximes générales de gouvernement economique d'un royaume agricole" Can we get an English translation of this title so that readers have some idea what its subject was?
 * ✅ (there's no article on that book yet)
 * Work in the Consulate, what does "perpetual secretary" mean?
 * It was just the name of the office.
 * Work in the Consulate, "This date would be later known in Argentina as the economist day." I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this. Was it official declared "economist day" like Independence Day or May Day? Was it known as this because of Belgrano's return, or was it just coincidence?
 * Yes, it's a national observance, remembering the things detailed (don't forget that Manuel Belgrano is a national hero of Argentina). If it was a mere coincidence, I wouldn't had mentioned it at all.
 * Work in the Consulate, "with the vocals of the Consulate," does this mean with the members of the Consulate who were vocal? The word "vocals" is used as a descriptor several times, and it just feels...odd. Or is "vocals" a special term for members of the Consulate?
 * ✅ it's a type of office within the Spanish administration. It was translated somewhere else as "comitee member", so I changed to that.
 * Work in the Consulate, "or deforest the pampas." He was going to give prizes for deforestation?
 * Yes. Remember, it was the XIX century, many things were diferent than in our days.
 * Work in the Consulate, "The system did not work as expected, and no such prize was ever given." Why didn't it work?
 * Because nobody met the conditions to earn a prize
 * Right. But why? Was the system itself flawed/broken? Was no-one interested in it? Were the criteria too difficult?
 * Simply, there were requirements, and nobody met them. The books do not go as far as to study why the system failed, they just point that it failed. I made it closer to the book, and provided a specific reference.
 * Work in the Consulate, "He used this newspaper to explain his economic ideas:..." Is this back to discussing the Telégrafo Mercantil? If so, the intervening sentence about working at the Semanario is misplaced, because as it now stands it sounds like he used the Semanario to explain his ideas.
 * It's the "Semanario". When someone says "this", it is implied that the reference is to the last item mentioned.
 * Ah, I see now. From the context I thought the Semanario was a school or other business, not a newspaper. I have tweaked the article to make this slightly more clear.
 * British invasions, "During the battle he served" What battle?
 * British invasions, "After the successful resistance," Resistance against what?
 * Carlotism, "to foreign trade, ruled by Cisneros," What was ruled by Cisneros? Foreign trade? The port?
 * I'm a little confused by the sequence of events in the Work in the Consulate, British invasions and Carlotism sections. In the Work section, it says he suggested Castelli as a replacement for himself in the Consulate, and Castelli was approved as such in 1796. If Castelli was his replacement, it could be assumed that Belgrano left the employment of the Consulate. However, in the British and Carlotism sections, it says that he was still working for the Consulate and didn't leave it's employ until 1810... So, did Castelli replace him or not?
 * Castelli was not meant to be a replacement, but a "vice secretary", someone that would replace Belgrano in case he had to resign or died because of his illness. As seen, he did not need to replace him.
 * May Revolution, "The open cabildo was celebrated" Was this event really a celebration, or did it just occur?
 * "Celebration" is not just for parties, but also for congress and special meetings.
 * My dictionary says that to celebrate is "to observe (a day) or commemorate (an event) with ceremonies or festivities". Were there ceremonies and festivities? "The open cabildo was held..." might make the wording a bit less loaded with extraneous meaning.
 * ✅, changed to "held"
 * Expedition to Paraguay, "The terrain gave a clear advantage to Velazco against Belgrano:" You need to tell the reader who Velazco is...remember that no new information should be contained in the lead, only a summary of what's in the body of the article.
 * Creation of the flag of Argentina, "On that same day" What day?
 * The same day that Belgrano raised the flag in Rosario (immediate previous sentence), he was appointed to the new military task.
 * Right. What day? Do we have a date?
 * Creation of the flag of Argentina, "Salta was menaced by Goyeneche" Who is Goyeneche?
 * Campaign to Upper Peru, "Hastened by Belgrano's illness," I'm assuming this was another flareup of his syphilis, but since that hasn't been mentioned in several sections, you may want to remind the reader what illness you're talking about...
 * Campaign to Upper Peru, "The new government, with a better concept of Belgrano," What do you mean by a "better concept"?
 * ✅ (rewritten)
 * Declaration of Independence, "the caudillos" What is a caudillo?
 * Long and off-topic to explain, so let's just say "Artigas" and "López"
 * Declaration of Independence, "appointed Belgrano for the army at Rosario," Appointed him to do what?
 * Declaration of Independence, "due to several states of emergency in the provinces" What kind of states of emergency?
 * Last years, "The governor of Tucuman, Feliciano de la Motta, was deposed during his stay, and he was taken prisoner." Who was taken prisoner? De la Motta or Belgrano?
 * Last years, "but his doctor Josef Redhead objected," Whose doctor? Belgrano's or Gonzalez's?
 * Last years, "Due to his poverty," Nothing has been mentioned of his poverty before this...weren't his parents fairly wealthy, and hadn't he held fairly good jobs?
 * Diseases, what are "disorganised kidneys,"?
 * I see that you have linked it, but nowhere in that article is the term "disorganized kidneys". If there was in fact a hamartoma in his kidneys, say something like, "...there were hamartomas in his kidneys...".
 * Diseases - The majority of the last half of the last paragraph of this section is a repetition of information found in the Last years section almost immediately prior. Because this article is already fairly long, we don't need to have duplicate information, especially so close together.
 * Political thought, "protected weaving manufacturing." How did he do this?
 * Political thought, "and boosted the livestock production of local fauna." What is meant by this?
 * There were bovines living in the wild in the countryside, gauchos and indians hunted them and took the meat and leather. The "the livestock production of local fauna" would be to capture the wild animals, and breed, feed and kill them in a controlled context. Meaning, Buenos Aires did not had a proper ranching system, just hunters, and Belgrano sought to take those primitive practices one step above.
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * Are the Lagleyze and Saavedra refs (in the Bibliography section) in Spanish? If so, please mark as such.
 * Alphabetize refs in Bibliography section by author.
 * Web refs need publishers, access dates and authors if known.
 * No. You just removed a bunch of the web links, so that now readers have to go searching through the BNI website to find the information. The web links to specific pages should be kept, and publishers and access dates added as needed.
 * ✅ But, as with books, all the general information is mentioned once in "Bibliography", and the details of each specific reference, at each one.
 * Carlotism, "The support of Cornelio Saavedra for Carlota is disputed." This needs a reference (or more, if different sources give different opinions and there is no one source giving the entire argument for both sides).
 * Removed for the moment, until I locate the book.
 * Carlotism, "Belgrano may not have been able to present such a work himself,..." Sentence needs a reference.
 * Diseases, "It is thought that those vomits originated..." Sentence needs a reference.
 * Not done...
 * ✅ (it's all in the same reference)
 * Political thought - the majority of the first paragraph needs a reference - it's sourcing his opinions.
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * File:Cabildoabierto-Subercaseaux-edit.jpg needs an actual description of what's going on in the painting, rather than a description of how it was restored.
 * File:Castelli.jpg, File:Carlota Joaquina.jpg, File:Belgrano y San Martín.jpg, File:Buenos Aires-Plaza de Mayo-Estatua Belgrano.jpg need descriptions in English. I've already added English descriptions to several images within the article, but I wasn't sure on the specifics of these.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * ✅ But, as with books, all the general information is mentioned once in "Bibliography", and the details of each specific reference, at each one.
 * Carlotism, "The support of Cornelio Saavedra for Carlota is disputed." This needs a reference (or more, if different sources give different opinions and there is no one source giving the entire argument for both sides).
 * Removed for the moment, until I locate the book.
 * Carlotism, "Belgrano may not have been able to present such a work himself,..." Sentence needs a reference.
 * Diseases, "It is thought that those vomits originated..." Sentence needs a reference.
 * Not done...
 * ✅ (it's all in the same reference)
 * Political thought - the majority of the first paragraph needs a reference - it's sourcing his opinions.
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * File:Cabildoabierto-Subercaseaux-edit.jpg needs an actual description of what's going on in the painting, rather than a description of how it was restored.
 * File:Castelli.jpg, File:Carlota Joaquina.jpg, File:Belgrano y San Martín.jpg, File:Buenos Aires-Plaza de Mayo-Estatua Belgrano.jpg need descriptions in English. I've already added English descriptions to several images within the article, but I wasn't sure on the specifics of these.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * File:Cabildoabierto-Subercaseaux-edit.jpg needs an actual description of what's going on in the painting, rather than a description of how it was restored.
 * File:Castelli.jpg, File:Carlota Joaquina.jpg, File:Belgrano y San Martín.jpg, File:Buenos Aires-Plaza de Mayo-Estatua Belgrano.jpg need descriptions in English. I've already added English descriptions to several images within the article, but I wasn't sure on the specifics of these.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

I realize apologize that my review is taking so long - RL got a bit busier than I had expected it to be. I am going to try very hard to finish this tonight... Thank you for your patience, Dana boomer (talk) 12:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Allright, I'm done with my initial review. Once the issues above are addressed I'll take another look at the article and see if there's anything else, but at this point I think the article is fairly close to GA status. Nice work! Dana boomer (talk) 03:13, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've gone through the article again and made a few more tweaks, and left strikes and replies above as needed. There are several things that still need additional work - anything not struck (there's several in the prose section and a couple in the references section) still need more work. Dana boomer (talk) 19:15, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Cambalachero, would you give me an update on where you are on the last issues, please? Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 03:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay. I got real-world things to consider some days ago, and when I returned I had forgot about this nomination. However, many things were already done, and I forgot back then to mention they were done.
 * I realize this took long, and I will have to leave for some days in a pair of days. So, let's end this here. If my latest fixes are enough, let's promote the article, if they are not, let's fail it, and I would fix whatever I missed when I return. Cambalachero (talk) 04:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, everything looks fine now, so I'm passing to GA. Nice work - thanks for sticking with it! Dana boomer (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)