Talk:Manulife/Archive 4

Name and logo
COI disclosure: I am an employee of Manulife. The logo included in this page is out of date. As you can see here, the company’s current logo no longer contains “Financial” as part of the wordmark.

In addition, the article lead currently reads “the company operates in Canada and Asia as "Manulife Financial" and in the United States primarily through its John Hancock division.” Along with the logo change, this is no longer accurate. I would like to ask if a non-COI editor could update the company logo and make changes the lead. I would suggest “the company operates as John Hancock in the U.S. and as Manulife in other parts of the world.” Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. KABannister (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Could you provide a reliable source for this information? Otherwise I change can't be made. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your quick response. You can find information about the Manulife logo and brand here (http://www.manulife.com/public/about/index/0,,lang=en&navId=610028,00.html), which includes information about the change and the timing behind it and the brand names. Please let me know if you have any further questions. KABannister (talk) 17:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Just giving a heads up that I'm checking into this. I'm not sure how company logos are handled in terms of copyright (we can't upload images that have copyright without permission), and I'm not particularly experienced with images anyways here, so I'm asking the folks over at WT:Image use policy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You have to use the organization logo upload form. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The logo is updated. I'll get to updated the text and most likely renaming the article later. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much. I really appreciate the time you’ve put into this. KABannister (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've struck most instances of Financial and Corporation coming after. In addition to the mention of the brand change, it seems to cut down on extra wording as I'm not so sure we need to include corporation in the name. Before I do a name change on the article though, are there any other sources mentioning the rebranding? I'd like to make sure this isn't just a rebranding just for the logo where the company still refers to itself as Manulife Financial as well. For now I think I'll leave the title as is since it's been known by that name for so long and include text specifying the name change as described. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Financial Numbers
I noticed that the financial numbers on the page haven’t been updated since 2012. Our 2014 annual report is available here: http://www.manulife.com/public/files/202/1/mfc_annualreport2014.pdf and shows revenues of $54,522 million and net income of $3,501 million (both shown in independently audited results on page 16). I’m happy to simply replace the old numbers myself, if any non-COI editors reading this agree that it’s a beneficial edit. KABannister (talk) 15:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm pressed for time with work until next week(trying to avoid Wikipedia until then), so I'm fine with you making a mundane edit like this. I'll try tackling the rest of your COI requested edit above related to the company name then too. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:37, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for your help! I noticed that the top of the page states the article relies too much on primary sources.  We’ll do some digging around to find more secondary and tertiary sources if that would be helpful. KABannister (talk) 17:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That would help a lot. One of the reasons why we want folks with a COI to request edits is because pulling from primary sources (in this case directly from the company) can result in WP:UNDUE weight by including no so important details. Secondary sources tell us what is noteworthy about the company aside from some of the standard things we've discussed so far. If it's going to be developed much further, we'll definitely need secondary sources. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:40, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for engaging with me on the above changes Kingofaces43. I have spent some time finding credible sources to improve the page. I will be adding a new section below.KABannister (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Sources and Updates
In response to a previous discussion about third party references for this article, I have taken some time to identify some additional ones here. These suggested sources are listed below: I also wanted to provide a few suggested updates that, I think, are supported by credible third party sources. I'd welcome your feedback on whether you agree these are valuable for the page:
 * Reference #5 - merger with Temperance and General Life Assurance Company: McQueen, Rod (1999)., Manulife: How Domenic D'Alessandro Built A Global Giant And Fought To Save It, p. 1913, par. 4 (Note: this reference and a number of others throughout the article reference Mr. McQueen's book, but it is no longer available at the hyperlink provided. It is, however, available here)
 * Reference #17 - new board chair, from National Post: http://business.financialpost.com/news/fp-street/manulife-names-richard-dewolfe-next-chairman-after-gail-cook-bennett-retires
 * Reference #20 - acquisition of AIC, from Toronto Star: http://www.thestar.com/business/2009/08/13/manulife_buys_aic_as_leechin_retreats.html
 * Reference #21 - acquisition of Potruff & Smith, from Toronto Star: http://www.thestar.com/business/2009/10/15/manulife_buys_woodbridge_brokerage_pottruff_smith.html
 * Reference #23 - opening in Cambodia, from Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-06-28/manulife-enters-cambodia-market-with-phnom-penh-office
 * Reference #29 - Boston Marathon sponsorship, from Mass Live: http://www.masslive.com/news/boston/index.ssf/2015/04/2015_boston_marathon_what_does.html
 * Wealth and asset management has become a bigger and bigger focus for the company (now representing nearly 40% of our business and $680 billion US under management), so I recommend editing the first sentence to read “Manulife or Manulife Financial is a Canadian insurance, wealth management and financial services company, with a head office in Toronto, Canada.” This shift has been covered in a variety of media sources including the National Post and Investment Executive
 * In the history section, the development of a joint venture in China is listed twice (in the first paragraph under "Mutual Company" and in the third paragraph of the same section. Obviously this shouldn't be duplicated. The second description fits, chronologically, into the article, so I recommend deleting the first.
 * A recent partnership with DBS Bank, with a value of $1.2 billion, changed our operations in Asia significantly. It was covered extensively in the media, including in the Globe and Mail, Wall Street Journal, Financial Times and numerous other major national and international outlets. As a result, I recommend adding the following description at the end of the article, using the Globe and Mail reference above as a credible third-party reference:
 * In April 2015, the company announced a partnership with DBS Bank, providing Manulife exclusive access to DBS customers in Singapore, Hong Kong, China and Indonesia in exchange for an initial payment of $1.2 billion USD.


 * Manulife recently introduced a new approach to life insurance in the United States and Indonesia where policy holders are provided with opportunities to significantly save on their annual premiums and earn valuable rewards and discounts for taking steps to improve their health. New policyholders receive a free Fitbit to help track their progress.  This has been noted as innovative in a variety of media outlets, including the Globe and Mail . If you think it’s sufficiently notable, I’d suggest an addition that says “In 2014, Manulife’s U.S. division, John Hancock introduced a partnership with Vitality, and MiUltimate healthcare in Indonesia to offer discounts to policy holders who take steps to adopt a healthier lifestyle.”
 * Manulife has stopped using the reference slogan “for your future” as indicated in the infobox. We didn’t make an announcement of this change but you can see it is no longer used on our website manulife.com or in our logo. KABannister (talk) 17:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look over these and probably get back to edits on them tomorrow. Also as an FYI, I've put this article on my watchlist, so I should check when there's an update, but feel free to ping me if you open up a new section after this conversation dies down in case I miss my watchlist update. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the late action, got caught up in work and travel. I didn't add the first reference since it's not readily available, but the content should be fine for now as sourced. The second is actually used as ref #18. I added the rest.
 * For suggested edits:
 * To me, adding the term wealth management seems redundant. Isn't this already covered in financial services? Following WP:LEDE we actually shouldn't need sources in the lede because we should only be summarizing what's already sourced in the main body of the article. If it's worthwhile to describe what they actually do in more detail, a services/products section might be worthwhile to develop first.
 * Deleted the first.
 * Added.
 * A bit iffy on the Fitbit one. Insurance companies have various deals for customers, so this one doesn't quite seem to pass WP:WEIGHT at my read of the source.
 * I went ahead and removed the slogan. It wasn't sourced before, so I'm fine removing it without a source for the change.
 * Let me know if there are any questions or additions. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Primary sources tag
I just removed the primary sources tag. There are some primary sources, but in most cases they are for content that's plenty fine to cite the company website itself. Other cases have a good blend of primary and secondary sources. If there are individual primary source issues, they should be able to be addressed individually at this point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delayed response, but I wanted to thank you for being so helpful. I’m glad that you feel we’ve improved things from the perspective of sources, and I'm happy that we’ve made progress on improving the page overall. KABannister (talk) 20:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)