Talk:María Lourdes Afiuni

Notability and Merge with Trial of Eligio Cedeño
Hello. This people is in the news here and here in France, which makes her notable and distinct from the case of Cadeño (notice how the second blog doesn't even mention his name). Therefore the old talks about that matter have been archived. Regards, Comte0 (talk) 12:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Time to re-create page Maria Lourdes Afiuni?
Originally a page about her was created, but it was moved to this page, the event of her arrest, since that was the only thing she was known for by the time. By now, however, she remains in jail awaiting trial, and she has become the most high profile political prisoner of the regime of Hugo Chavez. She is no longer known for her arrest, but for being a political prisoner. The name of the article is thus misleading, and it seems more prudent to move all of this content back to the page bearing her name (as it is in the French and Portuguese articles, and in all other articles in the categories Venezuelan prisoners and prisoners in Venezuela). I will await comments for only a short while before moving it, since the case for moving it seems very compelling. Lindorm (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * oppose I am perfectly aware of the French interwiki, since I did create it... Just remember that this wikipedia is independant from the French one. The article is certainly not misleading since it does cover her arrest and its aftermath; there is almost no information about the first 45 years of her life. Regards, Comte0 (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * support As it stands it is illogical, since the article title is about an event (the arrest), but the article is listed as a biography of a living person. It should either be changed to become a biography, or it should be removed from the list of biographies, and all other categories that have as members persons rather than events, and it should in that case be renamed Imprisonment of Maria Afiuni instead of arrest. As it stands it does not well reflect the subject matter. 74.164.41.7 (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * oppose WP:BLP1E clearly applies here, the subject is only known for the event of her arrest, there is no other notable information about her. BTW, the article is not "listed as a biography of a living person", there is only a reminder of the WP:BLP policy which applies to all content in wikipedia (biographies, other articles, talk pages, user pages, etc) and is valid for all information about living persons mentioned in the article (Afiuni, Cedeño, Chávez, etc). Additionally, I see no support to the claim that she is "the most high profile political prisoner of the regime of Hugo Chavez", even her status as political prisoner is a matter of contention. JRSP (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Her case has been the subject of a condemnation by the European Parliament, that was what I referred to. Lindorm (talk) 00:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Reconsidering the alternatives: 74.164.41.7 makes a good point above, arrest is a brief and almost monentary event which has long since ended, so if the article is not renamed Maria Lourdes Afiuni it should instead be renamed Imprisonment of Maria Lourdes Afiuni or Detention ... since those words refer to ongoing states. Which is better? And is either better than simply making it a bio? IMHO the worst solution is to leave the present name of the article since it has an NPOV feel in its very name. Lindorm (talk) 00:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I doubt that any source considers her the highest profile political prisoner (there are so many, and others are as well known), and BP1E seems to apply since I can't locate any indication she is known for anything else. However, I also agree that arrest is outdated, and "Detention" might be more relevant.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with moving to "Detention of Maria Lourdes Afiuni" JRSP (talk) 19:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Support The only reason we having a discussion about the notability of the subject is because: a)editors are not aware of the continuous international coverage b)Chavez enjoys a welcoming crowd in the English Wikipedia. I state that Chavez is not Bolivar. Chavez is not Che. Chavez is a charlatan, un caudillo, un Pinochet sin cojones. --Jmundo (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether any of that is true, I cannot come up with a convincing argument that BLP1E does not apply here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:07, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Moved to "detention of..." as an uncontroversial improvement. The word "detention" covers both the arrest and the ongoing status of being detained. BLP1E still applies, particularly as there seem little to no public information about the person not related to the detention with which to write a biography. Rd232 talk 17:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

robertamsterdam.com
robertamsterdam.com is a self-published source. I consider it should not be used as an external link. Additionally, the document is not about Afiuni's case; in fact, I could not find any mention of her in it. JRSP (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Chomsky
I deleted the following sentence from the article:
 * In an interview with The Observer, Chomsky "accused the socialist leader of amassing too much power and of making an 'assault' on Venezuela's democracy", and said Chávez "appeared to have intimidated the judicial system".

Both these quotes are from the journalist, not Chomsky. The text of Chomsky's letter is reproduced in the Observer, so we should let him speak for himself rather than quoting the journalist's interpretation of his remarks. This is particularly important because Chomsky has strenuously protested the presentation of his views by the Observer article (see http://chomsky.info/onchomsky/20110706.htm for the full story), saying:
 * The Guardian/Observer version, as I anticipated, is quite deceptive. The report in the NY Times is considerably more honest. Both omit much of relevance that I stressed throughout, including the fact that criticisms from the US government or anyone who supports its actions can hardly be taken seriously, considering Washington's far worse record without any of the real concerns that Venezuela faces, the Manning case for one [Manning is the alleged source for huge amounts of restricted material passed on to WikiLeaks], which is much worse than Judge Afiuni's. And much else.

If we consider Chomsky's views on this notable we ought to report what he says his views are, not what the Observer says his views are when he has explicitly stated that their article does not reflect them. We can leave in the quote about "a humanitarian act that ends judge Maria Lourdes detention", since it comes from Chomsky himself (although I've had to correct the wording as that is not an exact quote), and we can leave in "Chávez has long considered [Chomsky] one of his best friends in the west" since this assertion is credited to the Observer (it said Guardian but I've corrected that). My Spanish is not good enough to assess the accuracy of the Globovision article that is cited, so someone else will have to decide if it should stay in or not. Everything in that paragraph can now be sourced from the Observer article and the Media Lens response, so the Globovision article is actually surplus to requirements in terms of sourcing. 82.32.186.24 (talk) 23:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This article is about the detention of Maria Lourdes Afiuni, not Chomsky's objections to the mainstream media's coverage of his opinions; the omitted details are not in the main about the case. His objections to Rory Carroll's use of the interview are (rightly) covered in the Wikipedia article about the journalist. Philip Cross (talk) 12:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100329091738/http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/03/24/en_pol_esp_human-rights-groups_24A3637413.shtml to http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/03/24/en_pol_esp_human-rights-groups_24A3637413.shtml
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101215042240/http://www.robertamsterdam.com/venezuela/2009/12/eligio_cedenos_first_statement_in_freedom.htm to http://www.robertamsterdam.com/venezuela/2009/12/eligio_cedenos_first_statement_in_freedom.htm

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Released or not 2019
maybe you know better. What is the status of Afiuni, Jatar and the 20 students? I thought they were released but there is still some buzz on how it was not done. I have edited out the text that said they were released for the moment. --MaoGo (talk) 07:33, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi! Thanks for the ping! Afiuni's brother, Nelson, has denounced that Caracas' tribunals don't recognize the removal of the precautionary measures, declaring that Maduro lied to Bachelet. It's important to note that Afiuni was already released before, while being subject of house arrest. Afiuni still has these precautionary measures, she's forbidden to giving declarations to media outlets and from exiting the country. As for Braulio, I can't remember if he was only subject to house arrest, but he was freed with at least the precautionary measure of having to report to court during a period of time; I guess the equivalent abroad would be probation. I haven't read or heard news about the 20 students, my best guest is that they're also subject to these measures and that they have to report in court every once in a while. I should also add that Foro Penal has denounced that while some political prisoners have been freed, other persons have been jailed shortly after. I could look further into further details if needed. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Name change
Maybe this article should be move to Maria Lourdes Afiuni, the detention was a major event but she is still being victim of several arrest-release events that have notability.--MaoGo (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * A related move discussion has been started below. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:24, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Detention of María Lourdes Afiuni → María Lourdes Afiuni – The article does not only deal with her detention, and she has gained enough international notoriety for a stand alone article. All of the rest of the Wikipedia languages use only her name as title. NoonIcarus (talk) 10:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Move per talk section above.--ReyHahn (talk) 11:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)