Talk:Mar Thoma Syrian Church/Archive 4

Oriental Orthodox Church
Mar Thoma Syrian Church is an independent and autonomous Oriental Church. We agree that we are not in communion but no one has the right to say we are not part of the family. The only aspect that holds the Oriental Churches together is the Christology of the Ephesus Council. Please avoid unwanted edits by - MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 13:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

please stop unwanted edits. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 13:17, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The family does have the right. The Oriental Orthodox Churches are held together by a bond of communion that does not include the Mar Thoma Syrian Church. If you want to change the meaning of "Oriental Orthodox Churches" in Wikipedia, do so (or try to do so) in Talk:Oriental Orthodox Churches. Don't try to change it unlaterally: you won't succeed. Nor can you change unilaterally the meaning(s) of "Oriental Churches". Bealtainemí (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not going to stop reverting your WP:POV pushing. Veverve (talk) 14:22, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * See, this is the reason why, I had this problem for over almost two years with these users, who (pro)claimed to be member(s) of their church, even through judging the Church's history and theology are pointed to be theologically Anglican. Because again, their history give a huge clue, about this. Chad The Goatman (talk) 14:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The Oriental Orthodox Communion is a very recent development, historically they were the group of Churches (Copic,Syriac and Armenian from the 8th century), which had relations with each other. The common point that holds each church is the Miaphysite Christology eventhough the traditions and other aspects differ, Armenian being the most different. Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church that follows the teachings of the first 3 councils but avoids intercession and prayer for the departed as these are not standards of Orthodoxy.
 * I agree Mar Thoma Church is not part of the communion, but we have the right to define who we are, hence we are an Oriental Orthodox Church. IOC media wing editors like you dont have the right to define who we are. We have avoided editing your page. Please show the same respect vice versa. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 14:51, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course you "have the right to define who you are" and to publish in appropriate media your own definition, but Wikipedia is not a blog. Bealtainemí (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want a drastic move from our side, we will make that move. Marthomites are known for our forgiveness, if you insist we will have to take action. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 14:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello MalankaraSuriyanNazrani. Your phrase was 'drastic move'. That sounds like a threat against another editor. Please withdraw it or you may be indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia. EdJohnston (talk) 14:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Please avoid what could be interpreted as WP:THREATENing other users. Veverve (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * @EdJohnston How is that supposed be threatening. I dont even know who these people are !!
 * Anyways how do I withdraw? MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 17:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have struck out the threat, so it is taken care of. You can use several colons to indent your posts so they line up with those above. EdJohnston (talk) 19:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

independent sources have been cited about the Oriental Orthodox nature of the Church.Please make sure that people dont make unwanted edits. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 04:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Leaders of this denomination defines it as a Protestant Reformed Eastern Church
A simple google search for the definition of Protestant defines it as follows:

"a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches."

So in this wikipedia page, staunch Marthomites like Abel denounce the term "protestant", but make heavy use of the term "reformed", but as you can see in the above definition, "reformation" is synonymous with "protestant". So we all can finally agree that from a doctrinal standpoint, the Marthoma Church is a Protestant Church. There is no such thing as "reformed Orthodox", either you are Orthodox or you are not. Also, stealing information from Syriac Orthodox resources to further "Syrianize" your wikipage is cheap.

According to bishop Alexander Thoma, "The Mar Thoma Church combines evangelical and reformed doctrines with ancient forms of worship and practices. As a reformed Church with progressive outlook, it agrees with the reformed doctrines of Western Churches. Therefore, in the days of ecumenism, there is much in common between the Mar Thoma Church and other reformed Churches. At the same time as it continues the Apostolic Episcopal tradition and ancient Oriental practices, it has much in common with the Orthodox Churches. Thus it is regarded by many in the ecumenical world as a bridging Church."

According to bishop Juhanon Thoma the Mar Thoma church is, "A Protestant Church in an oriental garb."

The canonical Oriental Orthodox Churches are homogeneous in their Miaphysite Orthodox Christian faith and sacred traditions. They are in full communion with one another. On the other hand, the Mar Thoma church, based on the above statements from its own leaders is Protestant Oriental combining Oriental episcopacy and way of worship with Protestant faith. This denomination has never been part of the Oriental Orthodox communion but rather in full communion with Anglican Communion. The Mar Thoma church self-identifies as a Reformed Eastern church in its official website while explaining its relations with the Anglican Communion. "As a reformed Church with Episcopal tradition, the Mar Thoma Church entered in to a dialogue with the Anglican Church quite early as 1937. Through a process of consultation and dialogue, the two Churches are today in full Communion relationship. The ministry of the two Churches is mutually accepted in full. The Lambeth Conference is attended by Bishops of the Mar Thoma Church. In recent years, when parishes of the Mar Thoma Church were organized in the United States, Canada and Australia, pastoral care for the members of the Mar Thoma Church came from their counter parts in the Anglican Communion. We remember with immense gratitude, the support and pastoral care, Your Grace extends to our small Diaspora in the United Kingdom. The many gestures of solidarity by the Anglican Church and its presence in our midst on several important occasions are, well remembered and deeply appreciated. The relationship of the Mar Thoma Church and the Church of England is a living example of how we can become agents of change within our own culture and traditions rather than be drawn out of it, in to an alien culture. The relationship of this Reformed Church in the Eastern Tradition, with the Anglican Church, is an enduring and time tested relationship. We are confident that this happy relationship will grow from strength to strength in the years to come under the stewardship of Your Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury and Your Grace the 21st Mar Thoma."

The book "The Eucharistic Liturgy A Liturgical Foundation for Mission in the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church", written by Mar thoma priest Jameson K. Pallikunnil offers further insights. According to him, "As a reformed Oriental Church, it agrees with the reformed doctrines of the Western Churches. Therefore, there is much in common in faith and doctrine between the MTC and the reformed Churches of the West. As the Church now sees it, just as the Anglican Church is a Western Reformed Church, the MTC is an Eastern Reformed Church. At the same time as it continues in the apostolic episcopal tradition and ancient oriental practices, it has much in common with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Thus, it is regarded as a “bridging Church”."

Based on the above statements from Mar thoma bishops and priests, this denomination is Protestant Eastern Christian. Additionally, reliable sources on Oriental Orthodoxy doesn't at all mention the Mar Thoma church. Thus attempts to portray it as an Oriental Orthodox church, using unreliable blog type sources to twist facts, is nothing but blatant WP:POV pushing with which this article is presently replete. Veverve, EdJohnston, Chad The Goatman, Bealtainemí, if you are convinced by the sources, I can make the necessary changes, which you may validate. Or any one of you, may make the changes. But if you are not convinced by the sources, let the article remain as it is. Macinderum (talk) 12:28, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello User:Macinderum. While acting as an admin I don't have any vote on questions of content. But I don't actually see the phrase 'Protestant Eastern Christian' in any of the words that you directly quoted from the bishops and priests. Maybe you can try to search other sources (like scholars) to see if they use that phrase. Whether it is part of Oriental Orthodoxy might take a longer discussion and additional sources. EdJohnston (talk) 14:58, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello EdJohnston. Thanks for the response. I agree that the quoted clerics does not use the specific phrase 'Protestant Eastern Christian'. Alternatively, they use similar words like Reformed Oriental, Protestant Oriental, Reformed Eastern etc, describing it as a bridge between Eastern Christianity (form of worship) and Protestantism (theology and doctrines). There is a certain dearth of academic literature about this church, possibly due to its relative obscurity. But available scholarly sources endorse the definitions of its clerics. As the reformation happened due to Anglican missionary influence, its agenda was very much determined by the issues which had dominated the English Reformation. Oriental episcopacy and form of worship were retained along with a reformed translated liturgy. But the theology and doctrines are Protestant, emphasising the Bible as the basis for all matters of faith and doctrine, sole mediation of Christ, priesthood of all believers etc.   It is also specially noteworthy that the bishops of the Mar Thoma church preferred their American diaspora to become part of Protestant Episcopal Church (not Orthodox) instead of starting new congregations. Even though a local Mar Thoma hierarchy was subsequently established in the US, it still remains under the auspices and oversight of the Episcopal Church.  Additional sources on Oriental Orthodoxy are available, but none of them includes the Mar Thoma church in that group, although a couple of them mentions it in passing, as a Protestant Reformed denomination.   Macinderum (talk) 12:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC)


 * One would think that a church's latest theological choice is what most defines its character. This church claims to have originated as part of the Saint Thomas Christians who were in union with the Church of the East, a church strongly opposed to Miaphysitism. From the time of their adoption of Miaphysite theology, they were essentially of a different category, even if some earlier influences may perhaps have persisted. From the time of their adoption of Reformation theology (rejection of intercession of the saints being just one aspect of that theology), they were essentially of yet another category, even if some elements of their previous history persisted. The category to which they now belong is indicated clearly by the relationship of communion accorded to them, not by the churches of Church of the East tradition, nor by the churches of the Miaphysite tradition, but only by some of the Reformation tradition. Essentially, therefore, the church must be classified as a Reformation church. Its Miaphysite influences are at a secondary non-essential level and may be mentioned as such. Its description as Eastern or Oriental is of even less importance, being a matter of geography and meaning no more than absence of historical connection with the Latin Church. That is, at least, how I see its situation. Bealtainemí (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

On top of that, the bishops commemorated in the Eucharist inescapably makes known the nature and identity of any denomination. While Orthodox churches intercede for the bishops/metropolitans/Patriarchs part of Orthodoxy, the Mar Thoma church commemorates Anglican primates along with their own, as the church's doctrinal positions are closest to that of Anglicans. The liturgy, though derived from the West Syriac Rite, is reformed at its core, making it similar in essence to other reformed liturgies. The following is excerpted from the Eucharistic intercession. "Look with mercy, O Lord on Your holy Church throughout the world, all the Bishops Who bear the burden of leading and guiding her; Especially our Father in God, Philipose Mar Chrysostom Mar Thoma Valiya Metropolitan, Joseph Mar Thoma Metropolitan, The moderators of CSI and CNI, Archbishop of the Anglican Church, Our fathers, the Bishops: Zacharias Mar Theophilus Suffragan Metropolitan,......priests, deacons, evangelists, faithful members of our church and seekers of the faith."

In the light of information available from the cited reliable sources, does anyone else have an opinion? Macinderum (talk) 12:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * From what I see, they are the Indian equivalent of Anglicans: they have an episcopal polity, with a protestant theology which on some points leans toward Catholicism/E. Orthodoxy. Veverve (talk) 12:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello EdJohnston. The only logical inference that could be drawn from the cited reliable sources as well as the discernible consensus is that the Mar Thoma church is Oriental in episcopacy and worship style, while being Reformed in theology and doctrines. Its place in Eastern Christianity is analogous to that of Anglicanism in Western Christianity. So I'm thinking of modifying this article to that effect, citing reliable sources. Presently this article falsely characterizes Mar Thoma as an Oriental Orthodox church. To neutralize some of the WP:POV pushing, I would be making some additions about their reformed faith plus past and present ties to Anglicans, with references. I understand that you would not vote on article content, but do you have any objections to such a course of action? Macinderum (talk) 12:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I could raise distinctions regarding "Oriental in episcopacy and worship style" (Anglican Orders? Moderators on a level with Bishops?), but won't. Go ahead. Bealtainemí (talk) 18:57, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * go ahead. Veverve (talk) 01:39, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I have started the work. Veverve, Bealtainemí, Chad The Goatman, if it wouldn't be too inconvenient, please keep this article and talk page in your watch-list, so that user's who dispute the article content would discuss issues in the talk page with sources, instead of disruptive work. Thanks again. Macinderum (talk) 12:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Mar Thoma Syrian Church as a Protestant Church, bit of a stretch?
It is very weird and intersting at the same time to see the Mar Thoma Church as a Protestant Church. In essence Protestantism should be completely a western Church that follows the theological attributes of Luther,Calvin,Zwingli etc or it should be a Church directly under some protestant church. Please forgive my mistakes in the talk page as I am new to wikipedia. I was going through the conversations and quotes that we put by Macinderum, but I doubt any of these words suggests that the Mar Thoma Church is protestant. In my studies I have come to understand the Mar Thoma Church as an Independent Church having an Oriental Orthodox nature and Reformed in Charactar.

The word "Orthodox" is not monotonous or monopolised within Christinaity. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware explains

This is the very reason why the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East all claim to be Orthodox as they follow the to the faith formulated in accordance to particular person or era or council.

The word "Oriental" on the other hand is attributed to the Churches that follow Miaphysitism. The Mar Thoma Syrian Church in all its liturgies seems to be holding the Miaphysite Christology as the centre of the liturgy. Mr Abel Joshua Abey, a Marthomite writes the following:

I see that you quoted a few of the leaders in the Mar Thoma Church but I certainely believe there is a misrepresentation here. "Reformation" is not static either, Reformation is continuos in all Churches. Late Lamented Paulos Mar Gregorios,an Orthodox bishop of Malankara and who was one of the best intellectuals in Eastern Christianity in one of his article writes the following: . Just because the Mar Thoma Church has accepted the help of the Anglican Church more than the sister Churches and also has reformed many aspects in doing social and evangelical activities, the missionary zeal etc, I highly doubt if we should use the term protestant. The theology still remains intact as Oriental and faith remains intact as that of the early Church. Alexander Mar Thoma has written the following to the Holy Episcopal Synod.

Alexander Mar Thoma's succesor, Philipose Mar Chrysostom also writes the following in his book mission in the market place

The quote by Juhanon Mar Thoma is again misinterpreted. He does not deny that all of Malankara Church has been influenced by Protestants over the years, and certain aspects were taken or borrowed from the Protestants in the way of doing things, such as spreading the gospel, uplifting the society. Quoting Juhanon Mar Thoma from his book "Memories and Notes".

The quote that was used from the book "The Eucharistic Liturgy" is also misinterpreted. It is important that the introduction by the Priest Fr Jameson must also be read in a careful manner.

The Anglican Arch Bishop of Perth, in the official magazine and website of the Diocese of Perth writes the following :

The International Syriac Institute Beth Mardutho refers the following about the Mar Thoma Syrian Church

^^The last we checked, Beth Mardutho is based out of California and is not part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. They obviously haven't read the history or learned of the Marthoma doctrine.

I hope I would like to change the following User:EdJohnston User:Veverve Classification as Independent Oriental Orthodox, Orientation as Syrian, Theology as Miaphysite, Nature as Orthodox and Charactar as Reformed. I would not want to randomly edit, hence took the time to write this whole thing. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 12:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I will not change my mind. If the MTSC is Orthodox then the Anglican Church is Catholic; that is: being influenced by your spiritual heritage, believing in such and such Ecumenical councils, having an episcopal hierarchy, etc. does not qualify a church to be either Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or Catholic. Special cases like that of the MTSC fall into the very imprecise and catch-all concept of "protestantism". Veverve (talk) 12:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Veverve But dear friend, the eastern church does not codify anything that highlights what constiutes to Eastern, or Orthodox. I have provided the citations. It is only the western churches which has concrete rules. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)-

User:Veverve Orthodoxy in itself is a spectrum of different Churches. I doubt if I see any aspect of protestantism within the Mar Thoma Theology? Randomscholar1996 (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Veverve Let us try to reach a consensus in an academic way. I still think your claims arent deep enough to call MTSC a protestant Church. I have cited both primary and secondary sources from different Church traditions. Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, Reformed etc are not concrete words in Christianity. These differ according to different view points, faith practices,councils taken into consideration,ecumenism etc. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * you are not to change parts of an article for which there is already an explicit consensus and then ask for this consensus to reform if people disagree with your changes, especially if said consensus is less than a month old. Please revert your edit and wait for other contributors to weight in. I will also ping . Veverve (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Veverve As far as I understand from the rules of wikipedia, anyone who adds value to an article is able to do so. I doubt if consensus is required for the same. I am ready to hear everyone's thoughts. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a bit of a stretch to cite Kallistos Ware in support of the idea that this church, which like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the like, has cast aside millennia of tradition to "go back" to a supposed previous "purity", is an example of orthodoxy. Bealtainemí (talk) 15:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemi Hi friend, I doubt if you have mistaken yourself about the nature of the Mar Thoma Church. I feel the Mar Thoma Church has all the characteristics of an Oriental and Orthodox Church at the same time as borrowed aspects such as missionary activies, gospelisation, social upliftment etc from the west, which in the east was much reduced after the mid ages. The Persian Church was somewhat a similar Church which had such zeal, but the Islamic conquests tore the Church apart.

The dialogue between the Mar Thoma Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church which happend in the 1970s (when both Jacobite and Orthodox Churches were one)is a must read I must say. It shows how the Churches are about 98% similar, but has a little bit of difference and understanding about intercession and prayers for the dead. Mar Thoma Church has tried not to include aspects which were not part of the earliest christian tradtion. Both the aspects that were removed are more or less seen after about 200 years into Anno Domini. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reformation churches are in dialogue with non-Reformation churches. They remain Reformation churches. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree with most of what is being said here but it is incorrect to characterize this church's orientation as "Anglican". Anglicans believe in the 39 Articles and use the Book of Common Prayer in regards to doctrine and worship. The word "Protestant" is better at describing the Mar Thoma Syrian Church. desmay (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added a citation for Protestant in the article. desmay (talk) 20:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí As I quoted Paulos Mar Gregorios of the Orthodox Church,every Church is reformed. It is continuos,just like the Catholic Church introduced much reforms in the liturgy and faith orders through the second vatican council, the Church in Malankara has been continuously reforming since the 1599, the Synod of Diamper. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 21:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

User:desmay The Mar Thoma Church follows the three councils of Nicaea,Constantinople and Ephesus and reject the Synod of Chalcedon (which is very important for all western churches or protestant Churches)through which the Church proclaims the Miaphysite Christology of Jesus Christ as proclaimed by St Cyril of Alexanderia "One Incarnate Logos" and see the Blessed Mother as the Theotokos ie She who bore God. The Mar Thoma Syrian Church follows all theologies that is based in the West Syriac liturgical orders. It does not see the Bible alone as the sole source for teachings, nor does consider any of the Sola's introduced by Luther, or later one's added. All these basically mean The MarThoma Church is not equal to any form of Protestantism. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "A Reformed Church" indicates something more specific than "a reformed Church". Desmay did right – very much so – in citing a reliable source about the classification of the Mar Thomas Syrian Church. Do the same. Your arguments (and mine) are no basis for making edits in Wikipedia. They are original research. Bealtainemí (talk) 06:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí I'm sorry, I cant agree with the consensus. None of my opinions are personally my opinions or orginal research. I have cited secondary and tertiary sources as to what they think about the Mar Thoma Church. We can keep the "Reformed" as the character of the Church, but I certainly believe Protestant needs to go. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Boringly lengthy dissertations might serve to obfuscate, manipulate and waste the time of other editors who would have to read through the gibberish, but would not make sense. It is clear from this article's sources that the idea of restoration of the church to its original purity based on the bible, which the founders of the Mar Thoma Church tried to realize, was proposed by the Anglican missionaries. Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans generally acknowledge the first seven ecumenical councils. Does that make them Eastern Orthodox, who also accept only the first seven councils? Does the preservation of Roman episcopacy and some liturgical elements make Anglicans and Scandinavian lutherans, Catholic? On the other end, we have evangelicals and Pentecostals who even condemn the Councils. Yet, for the purpose of categorization, they are all classified Protestant. As per sources, the faith and doctrines of the Mar Thoma church is solely based on the Bible (Sola scriptura) and the Nicene Creed. They also subscribe to the foundational protestant theological principles of sole mediation of Christ and the priesthood of all believers etc. Speaking of priesthood, the MTSC's official reply to World Council of Churches on the question of ordination of women reads,
 * "Women now are able to share responsibilities which were formerly exclusively male. This change in society must be seen as an act of God. This must be reflected in increased sharing by women in the priestly ministry of the church. There is no theological barrier to such a development in the Mar Thoma Church. However, the Mar Thoma Church presently has barriers due to custom, culture and tradition in allowing women to share in the ordained ministry of the church. It is earnestly hoped that these will break down as men develop greater consciousness of the change of times and women become willing and open to new challenges that God is opening before them. At the same time we also earnestly hope that ways will be found so that ordination of women does not create new barriers on the way to mutual recognition of ministry and sacraments."


 * Sounds Protestant or Eastern/Oriental Orthodox? From a theological view point, the MTSC's stance on women's ordination is similar to that of mainline Protestant churches. Each and every reliable published source that has been examined so far, reaffirms MTSC's placement with the diverse family/branch of Protestantism. I also agree with other editors that the MTSC is principally a denomination in the Reformation tradition; its oriental attributes are subservient and peripheral. But as the term Reformed could be misconstrued as Calvinist, perhaps it best to explicitly classify this denomination as Protestant. It's oriental traits are already mentioned in the article. --Macinderum (talk) 13:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Macinderum Exactly what I felt as I read through what you had written previously literally misinterpretting every single quote. Lets get to the matter of discussion however.

1) The first point that you made was about the purity of the Scriptures. Yes, Mar Thoma has given importance to the scriptures which about 200 years back was lacking in the Church as a whole. But Mar Thoma Church does not base its teachings only around the Scriptures. The Memorandum submitted by Abraham Malpan (reformer) along with 12 other clergy to Colonel Presser states the following

Later in the Supreme Court of India, Juhanon Mar Thoma professes the same

2) The second point you made was to compare the Anglican and Lutheran Churches with the Mar Thoma Church. The problem with this comparison is that within the Anglican Churches and Lutheran Churches, different Churches adhere to different doctrines and dogma's,traditions etc. There are High an low church, Anglo Catholics and Congregationalists within the Same and yes they are protestants. On the other hand eventhough Mar Thoma Syrian Church is a single Church that follows the Oriental Orthodox theologies seen the light of the Syriac Fathers. Refer my comments above for the same.

3) You are correct on the matter of mediation of Jesus Christ for all believers at the same time the Mar Thoma Church does not say that intercession to saints is wrong. Juhanon Mar Thoma again in the Supreme Court of India states(kept as a legal document)

4) The priesthood of all believers, every single Church in the world accepts this doctrine, at the same timealong with all the other Ancient Apostolic Churches that Mar Thoma Church also see's that Jesus selected 12 men to be continuous succesors of the old testmant priesthood that will be passed on to the coming leaders of the Church. In the consecration of bishops of the Church, the liturgy affirms the following

5)It is quite irresponsible to select the Baptism, Eucharist, Ministry document, a suggestive reading of the WCC to base your point on. The BEM documennt was universally agreed upon as a document that would help to better the relationship between the Church. The dialogues between Coptic Orthodox-Lutheran, Anglican-Oriental Orthodox, Anglican-Eastern Orthodox etc have used the BEM document to move forward and agree upon the same. The statement offers that women could be part of priestly ministry, priestly ministry includes diaconate which the Armenian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox etc have already formally started. The Mar Thoma Church should follow in their footsteps and introduces a female order of diaconate as well. Secondly these are responses by the representatives of the Church in an ecumenical forum. They can be taken lightly as ecumenism kind of doesnt normally work out much.

The present Metropolitan His Grace Dr Joseph Mar Thoma has written the following in the official magazine of the Church.

I am not sure why their is a such an attack against this page even after referring to so much sources The Church is Oriental in theology, Orthodox in nature and Reformed/Reforming in Character. It doesnt fit under protestantism or protestant doctrines and dogma's. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As evident from the discussion above, the present classification of the Mar Thoma church as Oriental Protestant along with other additions pertaining to its original as well as continuing ties to Anglicans is based on a consensus achieved through a detailed discussion. The consensual changes are also supported by reliable and promptly verifiable sources. A number of them are peer reviewed scholarly books released by leading publishing houses that needs no introduction; thus exceeding Wikipedia standards for reliability. Mine or any other Wikipedian's statements, does not amount to anything. Authentic sources is all that counts and that alone adds weight to arguments and convinces well-meaning established editors. It is here that you come out deficient. Your citations and sources are far-fetched and untrustworthy. For example, you cited a quotation that you attributed to bishop Kallistos Ware. On condition that it is verifiable verbatim (I tried, but couldn't), did his statement even vaguely or remotely relate to the Mar Thoma church, or similar Reformed churches? One common objective of all Reformations was to go back to the earliest and purest Christian faith; right? On the face of it, it is fair to assume that bishop Ware made the statement, in relation to his own Eastern Orthodox Church. Then you quote Mar thoma writer Abel Joshua Abey. Who is that? What sort of writer? Blogger? Troller? Scholar? I couldn't find any published work attributable to this individual. Unverifiable, dubious quotations are of no value. Do you see now, why you couldn't convince even a single established editor, despite all the rambling?--Macinderum (talk) 12:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree to the points that has been mentioned by @Randomscholar1996. Words such as Reformed, Orthodox,Apostolic etc are not monumentalised or static within Christianity. From my research I have understood that the Mar Thoma Church has not included any form of Protestant theology or teachings in them. They follow a pure Oriental Orthodox thought process accepting the Miaphysite Christology of Jesus Christ, rememberance of the Saints and the departed.

Wikipedia is meant for providing correct information, and I doubt if the current article reflects the same. I too add my consensus to remove protestant from the article. Alan Maruthikattil (talk) 07:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not meant to report votes by people who log in. It is meant to report the judgments of reliable sources. Bealtainemí (talk) 11:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am afraid that this talk page and the whole topic of Indian Oriental Churches is infiltrated by sock puppets and single-purpose accounts. If anyone suspects sock puppetry then please report it to WP:SPI with your evidence. In the meantime, we will largely disregard the efforts to create an illusion of support for a position that goes against both consensus and the reliable sources that have been presented here. Elizium23 (talk) 13:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not very familiar with WP:SPI and the provision of evidence, but I guess it's very obvious., forgive me if this is not the right move, but I believe we have a situation that calls for your intervention as an administrator. Could you kindly ensure that everyone here plays by the rules and the prevailing consensus based on a comprehensive discussion of published sources, is not overturned by sock/meat puppetry using single purpose accounts? Looks like they want to create an illusion of a fake consensus based on very unreliable or nonexistent (pseudo-)sources and disrupt the article based on that.--Macinderum (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Bealtainemí So for you dozens of Primary, Secondary and Tertairy sources that I have quoted and cited are not enough? Be a sport friend, I have very clearly brought clarification about the Church. Mar Thoma Church is Oriental and Orthodox, not protestant. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , all your sources are doing is muddying the waters. You claim that these words have no concrete meaning in Christianity, but the communions and theologies behind them have meaning, so your case falls flat. You are arguing against consensus here, and single-purpose accounts do not help your case. Elizium23 (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , WP:SYN

I agree to the fact that Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church. Quoting from the words of H.G Late Lamented Alexander Mar Thoma Metropolitan to the newly consecrated bishops of the Church.

Oriental Orthodoxy does not only mean being a part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. What is this Oriental Orthodoxy? Oriental Orthodox Churches are the family of Eastern Churches who follow the Miaphysite Christology believing and affirming the dogmas and doctrines established by the First 3 Councils of Nicea, Constantinople and Ephesus. Believing that Mother Mary is the 'Theotokos'(God Bearer), 100% Divine and 100% Human Nature of our Lord Jesus Christ are the main characterstics of the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Now when we look into the 'Oriental Orthodox Communion', these Churches are not at all alike when it comes to Divine Liturgy, administration of the Holy Sacraments, No.of Books in the Biblical Canon etc. But still these Churches are common only because they are united by their Oriental Orthodox Theology.

Now when we come to a small Church in Kerala, namely the Malabar Independent Syrian Church, its a West Syriac Rite Oriental Orthodox Church. But it is not there in the Oriental Orthodox Communion. Same is with the Mar Thoma Church,a West Syriac Rite Church which upholds the Oriental Orthodox Theology, be it about the nature of our Messiah, be it the Mariology, or be it about the Divine Sacraments. Mar Thoma Church upholds each and everyone of them without missing anything.

When it comes to Intercession to Mother Mary and Saints and Praying for the departed Souls, its not at all a necessary characterstics of an Oriental Orthodox Church. Since Orthodoxy gives more preference in Praising the Triune God.

Oriental Orthodox Communion is just a later developement the Mid 20th Century. The Current Churches of the Oriental Orthodox Communion were Oriental Orthodox in nature even before the Communion existed. Isnt it??Same way Mar Thoma Church is not a part of Oriental Communion. It does not mean that it is not an Oriental Orthodox Church. Its wrongly said that Mar Thoma Church is a Protestant denomination. Or a Protestant Eastern Denomination. There is nothing like 'Protestant Eastern Church' existing till now. Protestant Denominations believe in the Holy Bible alone. But its not in case of Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church who believes in the Holy Bible, doctrines established by the First 3 Councils, teachings and writings of the Holy Church fathers of the 1st 2 Centuries of Christendom.

Now, those who say that Mar Thoma Church follows Anglican faith. Well you can compare the Anglican Theology and Mariology with that of Mar Thoma Church. They are completely different, since Mar Thoma Church follows the Oriental Theology whereas the Anglican Theology is Western.

Another thing, this Church has never admitted itself as a Protestant denomination, but rather an Oriental Orthodox Church with Malankara Syrian Traditions.

Mebin Benny (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@MebinBenny Your last point is has brought in the right historical factors of Oriental Orthodoxy. A fact that I had not thought off.

I can wait a couple more days as an administrator of wikipedia had asked me, if there is no proper statements made, I will be doing my end of the bargain by editing right facts in to the article. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Elizium23 These are not defined words. Eg The E.O calls themselves the Orthodox Church, so does the RC call themselves the same. Because Orthodoxy is taken from Orthos and Doxa which translates to true faith according to a constructed standard. So is the word catholic. The Catholics use it, so does every other Orthodox Church...becuase Katholicoi in its root form means Universal. Theologies, communion are all later developments, after the mid 19th century. If we are talking only the 19th century here, then there is a lot of aspects to change all articles.

I dont know about single purposed accounts. My account focus on three areas, World History, Christianity and Finance. I dont have much knowledge in other fields so I stay out of it. Even if there are single purposed accounts, I dont think it is right to call them so. As long as people irresepctive of what they edit, if they are providing better facts and adding value, they are equals just like other editors. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , muddied waters. The Eastern Orthodox Church is a well-defined communion of Churches, so when you put those three words together, there is nothing ambiguous about what "Orthodox" means, and they frequently refer to themselves in shorthand, but always meaning the EOC communion. Likewise for Reformed: you can find all kinds of churches which have reformed their liturgy or disciplines but when "Reformed" is capitalized and refers to theology, it has a very specific and Protestant meaning. Elizium23 (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The Theology of Marthoma Church is not Protestant at all. Please have a study on what is protestant theology and oriental theology. The only common thing in between the oriental orthodox churches in communion is miaphysitism. Traditions and rituals differs from place to place. Look at the example of Malabar Independent Syrian church, which is not in otiental orthodox communion. Can you classify it as protestant? Abin jv (talk) 13:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Elizium23 You are now making assumptions of your own. I have cited the direct words of the reformer in the Malankara Church. Practices that are against the scriptures, Orthodoxy and "Syrian Canon" were removed. So the theology of the Mar Thoma Church is very well defined as well, we are reformed in character, where the missionary aspects, societical constructs etc are reexamined and re defined. The faith and theology remains Oriental Orthodox according to the Syrian Faith. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:50, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Mar Thoma Church uses the west syriac liturgical text.

Below mentioned texts are taken from the Preface written by Prof. Dr. Sebastian Brock of Oriental Institute, Oxford for a book published by SEERI, Kerala. " As is well known, the Mar Thoma Church has the distinction of being a Reformed Church which at the same time belongs to the ancient liturgical tradition of the Syriac Orthodox Church".

This church is also part of Oriental Orthodox Community as evident from the book titled 'My Mar Thoma' published by their Church Animation Department. Malabarnasrani (talk) 14:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

One more point I would like to add. The West Syriac Liturgy has always went through many reformations from the beginning of its existence. None of the West Syriac Rite Churches are using the Original West Syriac Liturgy as written by St. James the lesser. Hence, its completely wrong to even say that Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church is alone using a 'Reformed' West Syriac Liturgy.

The word 'Reformed' should hence be omitted while writing about the West Syriac Lturgy. Mebin Benny (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It has already been pointed out that "Reformed" is not the same as "reformed". Bealtainemí (talk) 16:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Bealtainemí Please quote sources in Christian perspective. As far as I have read Reformed/reformed means the same thing. The second vatican council is the greatest example, it was a huge Reformation within the Catholic Church, which brings to my next point.

The Catholic Church is the primary example of what a Communion is, faith, traditions, theology etc need not be same. It is a spectrum. The chaldean catholic church, Syro Malabar Church for example, they follow nestorianism to a good extent, which is considered heresy for other rites. I dont know why you are so adamant about the Mar Thoma Church in specific. Let us work for the betterment of the Apostolic Church and to spread knowledge to others Randomscholar1996 (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you seriously think the Catholic Church is a Reformed Church? Cite a reliable source.  Bealtainemí (talk) 18:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí You are still monopolising the world. Go through the Canons of the Second Vatican councils, the traditional, doctrinal and dogmatic changes are phenomenal. Resesrching on the Second Vatican council was an eye opener for me, it will be for you as well. I am not here to fight or debate, but the Christian diasporic knowledge in its totality is way bigger than we can imagine.

Allow me to quote Mark Brumley, Catholic Theologian and Professor at the Ave Maria University, he is also the president of the Ignatius Press.

All Churches are Reformed, yes there are particular group of "Reformed Churches" that follows the Doctrines laid down "Urich Zwingli". The Mar Thoma Church nor any other sister Apostolic Churches come under the group, but every Church irrespective of Catholic or Orthodox is Reformed in a general way. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

A deeper study on the Mar Thoma Church will help us to understand that just like the Catholic Reformation, Malankara Reformation also aimed at spirtual, social and missionary attributes of the Church rather than doctrinal ones. Mar Thoma Church to this day follows Oriental Orthodoxy at the same time giving a reforming nature to the mission, induvidual and social aspects. God Bless. Hope I have made my point Randomscholar1996 (talk) 20:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Those are your arguments, which are not admissible in Wikipedia: WP:NOR. A reliable published source (The Essential Handbook of Denominations and Ministries. Baker Publishing Group; 14 March 2017. ISBN 978-1-4934-0640-1. p. 488) says the church in question "adheres to theologically Reformed doctrines" ("Reformed" with capital R) . Throw away your arguments and cite a reliable published source, any one, that says the church in question does NOT adhere to Reformed doctrines. Until you do, Wikipedia must by its own rules say (whether we like it or not) that the church in question adheres to theologically Reformed doctrines. Of course, you can find other places to say what you like, but Wikipedia is not for that. You need to study the information given under the heading "Policies and Guidelines" that was placed on your Talk page. If you refuse to accept those guidelines, Wikipedia is no place for you.  Bealtainemí (talk) 20:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , so you are saying that a member of the MTSC hierarchy claims that his church is Orthodox with a capital "O". All sorts of self-identifications are made by these kinds of bodies, but they do not take into account the real definitions of terms conferred by scholars and used by the likes of Wikipedia.
 * It does not take an expert to see the articles of faith reform in this very article and conclude that this ecclesial community is Protestant and not Orthodox. If it were Orthodox, then I would see some indication of intercommunion with Oriental Orthodox Churches - we do not. We would see the retention of seven sacraments - we do not. We would see the intercession and veneration of saints - we do not. And on and on and on.
 * Yes, this is my WP:OR but it is evidence that the reliable sources are correct. The standard for Wikipedia is to use reliable, independent sources, and Zachariah's essay is not independent. Elizium23 (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is my WP:OR but it is evidence that the reliable sources are correct. The standard for Wikipedia is to use reliable, independent sources, and Zachariah's essay is not independent. Elizium23 (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is my WP:OR but it is evidence that the reliable sources are correct. The standard for Wikipedia is to use reliable, independent sources, and Zachariah's essay is not independent. Elizium23 (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí I have read the rules dear friend. We also have rules for contradicting sources.

May I add one more source as well, I will add the link as well. Rev Fr Zachariah John writes the following

. A published Reliable source, please read. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 21:22, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

John, Zacharia (1994) The liturgy of the Mar Thoma Syrian church of Malabar in the light of its history. [] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomscholar1996 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Elizium23 There are a lot of factual mistakes in your post. You might be a very experienced editor friend but I doubt if you are qualified for the edit of a Church in Kerala.

1) Mar Thoma Church is in complete communion with the Malabar Independent Church, a fully Oriental Orthodox Church. We are in the final stages of full communion dialogue with the Syriac Orthodox Church, informally the members of the Churches are allowed to partake in communion and are priests are allowed to co celebrate.We are in Dialogue with the Malankara Catholic Church as well.

2) Mar Thoma Church has all 7 sacraments, atleast go to the website marthoma.in and get some basic knowledge.

You reply is evident that you lack knowledge about the MTC.

3) Veneration of Saints and rememberance of saints are a part of the Church, eventhough we avoid intercession (we do not say it is wrong) as it is not seen in the first 200 years of Christian history.

4)The source provided is a 200 page published book under the University of Durham. It is not an essay !

What you have provided is just a page from some random book, I have provided a whole book. As per WP:GEVAL, we omit lower quality sourves, your reference contradicts even to the legal documents kept in the Supreme Court of India Daniel vs Juhanon Marthoma, which is a published and the highest form of reliable source. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 04:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You say you have "read the rules". Apply them. You disagree with the reliable published sources that say the Marthoma Church is Protestant. Cite some reliable source that says it is "not Protestant". It is not enough to say it is Orthodox: "Orthodox" has many meanings. You yourself say that it "is not monotonous or monopolised within Christinaity"; and the first source you cite, Kallistos Ware, uses "Orthodox" in a sense that excludes the Oriental Orthodox Churches and, even more, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church. There is such a thing as Eastern Protestant Christianity/Oriental Protestant Christianity. ("Eastern" and "Oriental" are also ambiguous words.) A church can be Protestant and also Eastern/Oriental?Orthodox in some of the various meanings of these words. "The Church of the Cross of the Lord is located in Kremenets and is part of the Ukrainian Lutheran Church, which uses the Byzantine Rite."  Just cite some source that says the Mar Thoma Syrian Church "is not Protestant".  Since you know the guidelines, follow them.  Bealtainemí (talk) 06:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Bealtainemí The source provided by you does not say that the Mar Thoma Church is protestant, but rather it shows that it has retained certain good characteristics of mission and social mission that is primarily seen among protestants. I have already cited more than enough sources that the Mar Thoma Church is not protestant, that includes legal statements in the supreme court of India. I doubt if I have to provide the whole statments here.

The Syro Malabar Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church has immersed its doctrines in Nestorianism, which is considered heresy among other catholic churches, arent they still part of the Catholic Church? The Ukraine "Lutheran" Church follows the principles laid down by Martin Luther.

The Mar Thoma "Syrian" Church follows the "Syrian Canon Law", "Teachings of the first 3 Councils", "Miaphysite Christology", "Oriental Orthodox Theology"...there is a huge difference. One cannot compare Mar Thoma Church with other Protestant Churches Randomscholar1996 (talk) 07:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good. Perhaps we can make some progress, talking about a concrete source already cited in the article. I suppose you agree that a church's doctrine is more essential than its forms of worship. Even if you don't, I suppose you will agree that doctrine is an essential note of a church, that the Ukraine Lutheran Church, which, as you say, "follows the principles laid down by Martin Luther", can rightly be called Lutheran. "As the Church now sees it, just as the Anglican Church is a Western Reformed Church, the MTC is an Eastern Reformed Church." Can we both accept that? Can we both accept that the MTC is a Reformed Church in the sense in which the Anglican Church is a Reformed Church, not just in as every Church (and every individual Christian) should be constantly reforming itself? Bealtainemí (talk) 09:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí I would really love to make progress in this matter. I have not denied that the Church isnt reformed. The church is reformed in its view of societal and mission oriented aspects. Teachings,theology,ecclesiology,traditions, liturgy has remained the same as the other Oriental Orthodox Churches. Instead of comibining Eastern Reformed together, lets use the words Eastern and Reformed.

When we use the word Reformed, it should not point to Protestant or Catholic Reformation, but a Reformation that is unique to the Oriental Orthodox Indian Churches.

Randomscholar1996 (talk) 09:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do we agree on applying the word to the MTC in the sense in which the cited source applies it to both MTC and Anglicans? That's the only sense for which the source can be cited.  Bealtainemí (talk) 09:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí Please let me know your thoughts on the following.

1) Anglicans in itself is divided into many. I think we should use the word in the context of High Church Anglicans.

2) I believe Anglicans follow the Sola's (correct me if I am wrong). If they follow the Sola's there is a change in Catholic Doctrine. In the case of Mar Thoma Church, such theological changes are not seen.

Please let me know your opinion. I can agree with the High Anglican part, not Anglicanism in general. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 09:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't, in Wikipedia, add our own interpretations (WP:SYN). Just report what the source says.
 * Of course, other sources may also be added, reporting what they say, without synthesis. What we can't add is our own view, our own interpretations.  Bealtainemí (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí What about the sources that I have added, without any synthesis? Direct quotes from published sources.

Wikipedia does suggest that if contradictory sources appear we need to avoid the less quality sources as per WP:GEVAL

I would really like to have the consensus to remove protestant from the article. Or we will have to move on to third opinion and dispute resolution if we cant come to consensus Randomscholar1996 (talk) 10:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you have cited sources that say many things about MTC, but do any of them say MTC is not Protestant/Reformed/Evangelical? If any of them do say it is not, do cite them slso. As for what else they say (e.g., that MTC uses a form of the West-Syrian liturgy), that can be said separately and, if it is controversial, it would seem best, for the sake of clarity, to discuss it under a new heading after concluding this question.  Bealtainemí (talk) 11:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí I have cited sources that has highligted the true nature of the Church. The Church is Oriental Orthodox and Reformed. Reformed doesnt mean theological reforms,but rather reforming the Character of the Church to adjust itself to the new challenges in social and mission areas. Please refer Rev Fr Zachariah John's thesis as provided about to understand the reformation in Malankara.

Why again with the evangelical and protestant? Are we going on some kind of loop? Already disproved that this church does not follow evangelical or protestant doctrines! When someone writes about the Orthodox Church, why should he/she mention specifically that this is not protestant?

Randomscholar1996 (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You have "highlighted the true nature of the Church" by the adjectives "Oriental Orthodox and Reformed", which all apply to the same entity. This section is about the adjective "Reformed". You (and I) have our own ideas about what this adjective means in relation to the MTC. Our ideas do not count in Wikipedia. What counts is what the cited sources say. One source says the MTC is a Reformed Church "just as the Anglican Church is". Unless we cite a source that itself (not on the basis of an original research interpretation put forward by us) disagrees with that cited source, Wikipedia must accept that source. Wikipedia does not have to say on the basis of that source that the MTC is Protestant or Evangelical (although it might have to on the basis of other sources) but it has to report that statement that the MTC is a "Reformed Church" in the sense in which that source calls it a "Reformed Church". Bealtainemí (talk) 13:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)!

User:Bealtainemí As I said I dont mind adding Reformed in the article. None of the sources that was previously cited by a few above mentions that it is protestant. So I share my thought in removing the words such as protestant for the article. Lets keep it as Oriental Orthodox and Reformed(unique)."Reformed Churches" that you are trying to mention I believe is completely different. The World Council of Church website highlits it as [] as those with French and Swiss roots of Reformation.

Just remove the Protestant stuff. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 14:01, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do we agree that the cited source says the MTC is a "Reformed Church" as the Anglican Church is a "Reformed Church"? We can't by synthesis interpret that cited source as saying the MTC is a "Reformed Church" in the narrow sense used by the WCC. Nor can we use synthesis to declare that that cited source says the MTC is a "Reformed Church" in any sense other than that in which it calls the Anglican Church a "Reformed Church".
 * On the basis of another cited source we can say that the MTC agrees with "the reformed doctrines of Western Churches" without, however, declaring whether by "reformed" that source means "issuing from the Protestant Reformation" or (as you interpret it) as a restatement such as the post-Vatican II declarations of the Catholic Church.
 * Other sources may be cited, but can we agree at least on what those two say? Bealtainemí (talk) 15:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Belatainemí Yes we can agree that the MTC is reformed as  long as we do not issue it to either Protestant or Catholic.

Randomscholar1996 (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. What should we do with the statement by another cited source ([The Essential Handbook of Denominations and Ministries''. Baker Publishing Group; 14 March 2017. [[ISBN (identifier)|ISBN]] 978-1-4934-0640-1. p. 488), which says that the MTC "adheres to theologically Reformed doctrines while retaining much of the Oriental Orthodox tradition, incoorporating elements of both Eastern Rite churches and Protestantism"? Bealtainemí (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí We go according to wikipedia rules. Since all of the sources that I have cited as well as most of those cited by you and others contadict this particular source, as per WP:GEVAL and WP:DUE, we omit this minority source. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 18:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good. Let us examine one of those that, you say, contradict the sourced statement that the MTC incorporates elements of Protestantism. You choose. Bealtainemí (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí I believe the rule says to omit the less valued statments.Since not all the sources that I have is available "Online" I would go with Zachariah John's "The Liturgy of the Mar Thoma Church in the light of its history." Randomscholar1996 (talk) 18:56, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If the MTC incorporates elements of Protestantism, it surely does so principally in its doctrinal declarations, not necessarily in its liturgy. The article cites a book that does not say it's in the liturgy that the MTC incorporates elements of Protestantism. I am surprised that a book on the history of its liturgy (which long predates the formation of the MTC) is said to speak of incorporation or non-incorporation of Protestant elements in the whole life of the MTC. Please quote the relevant passage. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Bealtainemí It does not incorporate protestatism. There is a very common quote used in Eastern Churches. "The theology of all Eastern Churches is found in its liturgy". Interestingly Rev Fr Zachariah John has quoted it as well.

.

Chapter 1-7 are evaluations of the liturgy with the counter Syriac Orthodox Lirtugy and later the Malankara Syrian Liturgy that was in existence. After evaluating he comes to the following conclusion.

I hope this can become the final conclusion for this conversation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomscholar1996 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Zacharia's essay is but a thesis that he submitted as a candidate for obtaining an MA degree and is certainly not a peer reviewed scholarly work. His statements express his own individual evaluation of his church denomination (MTSC) and personal interpretation of the sources he consulted. Such an opinion piece is no way equal to independent peer reviewed scholarly works released by notable publishers. I'm not sure whether Wikipedia has a policy on this, but theses by definition embody the results of original research and must be used only as an optional extra to buttress what has already been established by reliable sources. But if original research contradicts reliable and verifiable published work (as in this case), it shouldn't be taken into account at all.--Macinderum (talk) 02:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Macinderum Wikipedia considers all scholarly work as valid. Please avoid your own interpretation on how wikipedia works.

Original research means those of which we define stuff with no reasonable source. As long as there is a strong scholarly issue it is considered reliable.

According to WP:GEVAL we remove the minority contadictory source, which in this case is the one page article of the Denomination handbook. It cannot be compared to a 200 page scholarly work. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 03:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , PLEASE INDENT YOUR REPLIES SO THEY ARE READABLE!!! THANK YOU. Elizium23 (talk) 04:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not consider as reliable works which have not been reliably published, and a master's thesis falls under this category. As Macinderum informed you already, it is not peer-reviewed and so, to us, it is as worthless as a second-grader's crayon rainbow taped to Mom's fridge. Elizium23 (talk) 04:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * User:Elizium23 Please refer to the wikipedia page which shows that the resources is not counted. I do not care about your personal thoughts of the same. From what I have read as long as it is public and published it is reliable. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 04:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Its not the people from outside who can decide if a Church is Oriental Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox or a Protestant or a Catholic. Its the Church Authorities, the faith and Practises of the Church, the sacred traditions of the Church which decides the nature of the Church. And I believe that no more proof is needed to prove that Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church, as it is confirmed by the History, faith, Theology and Sacred Traditions of the Church, the writings of the Theologians of the Mar Thoma Church, and the declarations of the Sister Orthodox Churches.

Mebin Benny (talk) 08:03, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Mebin Benny's view. Bealtainemí (talk) 11:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * , as you present Zachariah John's view, his essay denies that any purification/reformation occurred in the creation of the MTC. In particular, that intercession of saints is excluded (although other sources say it is excluded and although, in the opinion of the Church (of England) Mission Spciety. this is one of "those doctrines which we threw off at the Reformation", whose presence in the Indian church made reform imperative.(source, p. 22)
 * More essential: Zachariah John in no way contradicts the statement by a reliable cited published verifiable source that the MTC incorporates elements of Protestantism. Can you find any reliable source that does?
 * You know, don't you, that the Western Protestant Reformation churches generally accept the three ecumenical councils (indeed more), whose acceptance you seem to consider proof of absence of Protestant elements in the MTC? Bealtainemí (talk) 11:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Allow me to mention two aspects regarding the same.
 * 1) For your first claim that Zachariah John denies Reformation is wrong. Pages 30-77 of his thesis covers a detailed report of the unique reformation in Malankara and what all changes were made. His final statement that the Church is Oriental Orthodox in its nature is more than enough to demean the statement that the Church is protestant.
 * The intercession of saints is I doubt a criteria to be Oriental Orthodox. As far as the Ecumenical Councils goes, only the 7th Ecumenical Council in AD 787 is the first time it becomes part of the canon of a Council.


 * 2) Secondly as I have previously mentioned the only think that bind Oriental Churches is the "Miaphysite Christology", that protestant churches deny. They follow the fourth council for the Formula that incorporates the divinity and humanity of Christ...that the Oriental Churches deny.


 * 3) Thirdly each and every Protestant Churches bases its teaching on the five solas. fora quick read. For deeper reads "Protestant Reformation by Robert Freeman", "The Five Sola's of reformation by Douglas Van Dorn" etc gives us the picture that for a Church to be "Protestant" it should have codified the 5 Sola's into its canons.


 * Hence Mar Thoma Church can never be a subset of the Protestant Community no matter how much one tries to do so. Mar Thoma Church is Oriental Orthodox and Reformed in its social responsobility and in its mission to building the Kingdom of God. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 12:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We can't cite you as a reliable source on Wikipedia.
 * At least one reliable source says there are elements of Protestantism in the MTC. It doesn't say the MTC is simply a Protestant church. Perhaps no reliable source says that. What it says is that there are some elements of Protestantism in the MTC. Do even you deny that? The sources you quote deny only that the MTC is simply Protestant, not that it has within it some elements of Protestantism. Surely everyone recognizes that it also has in it elements of Oriental Orthodoxy, elements inherited from before its reformation, purification, or whatever else you want to call the process by which it accepted some elements of Protestantism without becoming simply Protestant. You have found no source that denies the existence of elements of Protestantism in the MTC. Do you actually deny it yourself? Bealtainemí (talk) 14:12, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I think I will have to deny that. If you could elaborate what are the elements related to protestantism that the mtc has adopted it would be better. Until we get a clarity on that I believe we cant put the Church under any Protestant category.Randomscholar1996 (talk) 16:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I dont think so that there is a need for further debate. Its proven here that Mar Thoma Church is purely Oriental Orthodox by nature. Enough proofs had been given. The party which claims that Mar Thoma Church is a Protestant denomination has failed to support their argument. Mebin Benny (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , it makes no difference to Wikipedia whether you or I affirm or deny what a reliable source states and no reliable source counters.
 * As far as I can see, Wikipedia does not put the MTC under any Protestant category. It does put this article (not the church) in the category "B-Class Anglicanism articles" (see the foot of this page). Bealtainemí (talk) 18:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hence it is important to remove edits that aims the church into protestantism. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 18:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand that you think it important to remove edits you don't like. What reliable sources state, not what you or I like or dislike, is what counts in Wikipdia. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:05, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * See friend I can refer to another dozen of books to prove my points. I understand that one or two sources does contradict, but shouldnt we as editors see to it that an article should be presented in the best way. And that is the very reason why I agreed to keep reformed in the article, eventhough there is inclarity in the meaning. Since you too focus on edits that are very much related to Malankara, I believe you can understand my point. If as the sources you have provided claim, if Mar Thoma Church has elements of protestatism, we need to define what are those elements. Unless and until we define it we cannot call it Eastern Protestant Church,Oriental Protestant etc. I would like to change those into Eastern reformed and Oriental reformed. I can cite proper sources for the same as well. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * By all means go ahead and cite any reliable source that indicates what kind of elements of Protestantism are found in the MTC. Are there any such sources?
 * (By the way, I see you have removed reliably sourced information from the MTC article, giving no reason other than that you don't believe it. Several reliable sources state that Abraham Malpan and Kaithayil Gheevarghese Malpan worked with the CofE missionaries at the Kottayam seminary and were thus open to CMS influence. Unless you find similar sources that deny it, you ought to undo your erasure, before someone else does.) Bealtainemí (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Mar Thoma Church does not have elements of Protestantism. Since you are the one raising it, you should mention what those elements are.

2) Mar Thoma VI worked with the CMS, does that mean he was anglican influenced? Randomscholar1996 (talk) 04:53, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't raise it. Kurian and Day stated more than three years ago that the MTC incorporates elements of Protestantism. In 2013, Hudson and Mitchell stated that "the Mar Thoma Church's theology is more Protestant". If you disagree with them, take it up with them, not with me.  Bealtainemí (talk) 05:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Well by God's good grace I have found an published source that the Mar Thoma Church is not protestant. Most of the sources only highlighted the Oriental and reformed nature of the Church, none which like you wanted denied protestantism. So I had to do my part of the work and I have found it. Juhanon Mar Thoma Metropolitan in his book "Basic Faith" and Revd Dr K.V Mathew in his book "Faith and Practices of the Mar Thoma Church" writes the following




 * Rev Dr K.V Mathew widens this perspective and writes the following:




 * Hope I have answered the core confusion. I hope that I can edit and add value to the article from tomorrow. If you still have problems with this. Lets create a subsection within the article and highlight the difference of opinion from the other source as well, Wikipedia allows that option as well. God Bless.
 * Sorry. You'll have to try again. K.V. Mathew only says that the MTC is not a Protestant church. Nobody says it is. But reliable sources say that it has accepted some elements of Protestantism. Hasn't it? In its purification/reform it accepted or introduced new ideas, didn't it?  Where did they come from?  Bealtainemí (talk) 20:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

we have gone over this brother. To accept Protestatism, it has to be a Protestant Church. Time and Time again I have proved that it is not protestant. The Mar Thoma is reformed in a way to see a wider mission beyond that normal churches would see. If you cant agree to this, the talk is over. We will be editing from tomorrow, my talk was sincere, I hope yours was as well. But somehow your non acceptance gives me some other idea. If you still have problem we put the article in the dispute resolution notice board and go the hard way. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 21:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I greatly regret your "all out of step but our Johnny" attitude, extending it to questioning my good faith (immediately after I had defended yours in a conversation I had with another Wikipedian), as well as rejecting out of hand on your own authority what reliable sources say about MTC acceptance of some elements (not all) of Protestantism. I have to let you go on what you call the hard way, which you will find harder than you now imagine. Before you do, I recommend you to read Intercession of saints, "a doctrine held by the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic Churches", one that "most modern Protestant churches strongly reject", and one specifically mentioned as a doctrine that the CMS set out to purify/reform the West Syrians from by their enlightening. There seems to be nothing further I can do to help you. Bealtainemí (talk) 06:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I apologise for my words, if it hurt you. I am clear about the intercession of saints. This was raised against Juhanon Mar Thoma in the Supreme Court of India (Reference:Daniel Case). His answers are very intersting. "The Mar Thoma Church does not believe that the intercession of saintsnis wrong or against the Bible, but we do not follow it as we see the communication with the departed as a mystery".

Randomscholar1996 (talk) 15:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't worry. I am not offended; but it seems useless to discuss with you what the sources explicitly say. Bealtainemí (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am an ex wiki editor who quit editing almost 10 years ago. I forgot my old credentials and had to create a new one. I am a member of the Indian Orthodox Church and what brings me here is a facebook comment made by Mr. X.

He alleged on facebook that wiki pages of Marthoma Church are vandalized by Cyber group of the Indian Orthodox Church. Trusting his allegation, other members of his church too were expressing their anger at the Orthodox Church on facebook.

As Mr.X ( Random Scholar) is a person who is involved in heavy hate speech and bullying against the Orthodox Church on facebook, I had to check if the reason for his disgust towards Orthodox Church is genuine and as alleged is due to members of the Orthodox Church vandalizing the wiki pages of Marthoma Church. I went through the edit history of Mathoma Church and was unable to find any ' cyber group' deliberately trying to vandalize their page.

Mr. X, your allegations hold no truth. I am referring to you as Mr.X, cause I value your privacy and have to stick to the privacy rules of Wikipedia.

This detailed background of me and the reason why I joined wiki again is for others to know my background in case I engage in a debate here.

Zoticus777 (talk) 10:36, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Well I doubt that is wrong.

You might be mistakenly calling us as a Single person. Mebin Benny (talk) 11:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello user Zoticus. I think it is very irrational of you to bring me into this whole mess. I do not even use facebook. Whatever is between you and is your business not mine. If it is sockpuppetting the ip address of the user mebin benny and mine will be the same. Administrators are free to check. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 11:56, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I I myself dont use Facebook. What on Earth are you really talking about?? My name is Mebin itself. I dont know which 'Mr. X' you are really talking about. Moreover, I dont even know who you actually are. Mebin Benny (talk) 12:35, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Randomscholar1996 Why on Earth are you including my name here. I dont even know what rubbish this is talking about. Mebin Benny (talk) 12:45, 5 September 2020 (UTC) Mebin Benny (talk) 12:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Friend, You cant simply make up your own stories. As I said that I dont use Facebook, then how can you paste those links(Where I have attacked your Church in Facebook) here which do not exist?

I feel that you are making unwanted issues here for the interests of your Church.

We are here to discuss about the Oriental Orthodox Nature of the Mar Thoma Church, not for solving your personal grudge against anyone. Thank you. Mebin Benny (talk) 13:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

You are mentioning about some people from the Mar Thoma Church who are attacking the Indian Orthodox Church in Facebook. Well, in this whole talk I did not mention anything about Indian Orthodox Church. Moreover, here the discussion is completely focused on the Mar Thom Church. If you want to say something about the Indian Orthodox Church, you can go to that talk page. Its my humble request to you sire that we shall carry on our discussions on those topics which are valid here in this talk page. Its better to not creat an unwanted Chaos by bringing your personal Facebook conflict here in this Wikipedia talk page. God bless. Mebin Benny (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I did not bring any discussion about the Orthodox Church.

I just jotted the reason what compelled me to come to this page

Hope you know to read English. Zoticus777 (talk) 15:28, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Respected user, let your reasons be your own business sire. Its better if you dont bring your reasons here in this talk page and disturb the smoothness of the discussion which was going on here. Please dont get offended by what I am saying. Well, whether I know to read English or not is reflected through the medium with which I am communicating here. Mebin Benny (talk) 16:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)