Talk:Maranatha Campus Ministries

Untitled
My apologies for marking my edits on 1/19 & 1/31 as "minor". I marked them as such because they were relatively small edits and only pertained to one section of the article. However these edits did change content and, as stated wikipedia editing standards, should not have been given the minor designation. I will be careful to comply with all wikipedia standards for my future edits. R. Ridge1961 (talk) 20:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)R. Ridge

I do not know Jon Moseley or Tik Tok, but I was the church historian for the Hawaiian Maranatha church from 82 to 84 and was a member from 80 to 84. This article is tame compared to what could be truthfully said about this organization. The discription that I see in the Maranatha article is leaving out much of what was real bad. Possibly because some might find it difficult to believe. I know of 2 engagements that were ordered terminated and one woman was told to divorce her unbelieving husband. I know names if someone wants to claim it didn't happen, I only refrain from posting them here because I haven't seen these people in years and I don't have their permission to post their name on the web.

What finally pushed me to the point of leaving was an incident where Pastor Larry Warren ordered 2 members who were privates in the military who had come off of a 24 hour shift and were scheduled to start another one soon to attend a "mandatory" brothers meeting. These guys had 12 hours off between 24 hour shifts and they had already spent a third of that time at a church service. they just wanted some sleep. Larry, an ex military man himself, knew how to whip the troups into shape. He got within 3 inches of their noses and yelled in their face, WHEN I SAY ALL THE BROTHERS, I MEAN ALL THE BROTHERS.

Accurate and fair? be careful what you ask for.

TJ

I believe that any article that is on Wikipedia should be perfected to give accurate, neutral, fair, balanced and especially USEFUL information... IF IT IS RETAINED ON WIKIPEDIA.

(Comment: The article was certainly USEFUL to me! See my other comment below. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

(Comment: I found the article when I was searching Google to see if the "Every Nation" church was, in fact, a cult. A local branch has been set up in my area and some people have been concerned about it. My opinion on the article is that is written in a REPORTing fashion. i.e. without any particular prejudice. It seems to me that any prejudice is found in the actions of those who created the original information when investigating the Maranatha movement. To judge whether or nor the reporting is fair or not, depends upon how accurately the author has related his/her research to us, the readers. I am in no way related to or connected to either the Maranatha group, or the "Every Nation"/"Morning Star" group. I am, however, a practising Christian with some decades of reading about cults and recognising where they may deviate from traditional Christian church doctrines. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

So I am trying to provide footnotes to better document this article.

However, the church has not existed for 16 years. So one may question whether the article should exist at all.

(Comment: Should we then abandon all study of any type of history? Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

But I am going to continue to try to perfect it as long as it is up here. I am searching for more citations and sources to better footnote the article.

JUST GIVE US A LITTLE TIME, PLEASE! We have day jobs. So please give people a week or two to squeeze in some volunteer efforts in between work, family, etc.

Jon Moseley

BY THE WAY: What should we do when there is very powerful supporting information in the form of a book, such as a book EXACTLY DICUSSING THE ISSUE AT HAND (like shepherding), but the only reference to that is the book for sale?

Is that okay?

The book may give powerful, direct, and comprehensive information about the issue.

Jon Moseley

Blueboy96, like others, keep adding FALSE information. Not merely information that cannot be verified, but information KNOWINGLY FALSE.

For example, no one can exercise "control" over someone in a voluntary group. It is impossible. People were free to leave the church, and many did. So no one can "control" someone's life who is free to leave any time they want.

Similarly, Blueboy96 wants to say that members were "required" to follow the Biblical mandate to tithe. That is knowingly false. Is he saying that people had guns put to their head? Clearly not. Members were taught what the Bible teaches. They could not be "required" to do anything, and they were not.

JonMoseley

It is well known within the wider Christian community that Maranatha was a cult. It was also well documented in the mainstream press.

(Comment: I highly doubt this. Having been a practising Christian for 54 years, I have seen many cultural changes in the operations of the Christian church over this time. i.e. changes that do not result in deviation from Biblical principles. e.g. use of modern music instead of the traditional hymns written in the 1800s; the Catholics going from Latin to English; the rise of the Pentecostal movement commencing in the early 1900s and so on. Although these changes, and numerous others, are not unbiblical, they have, nevertheless, always incurred the wrath and accusations of those who do not like the changes. From reading the article, it seems to me the complaints about Maranatha seem to fit into this category more than Marantha's activities being seriously unbiblical. Keep in mind that the author is nor complaining about Maranatha, but reporting complaints about it. As I see it, Maranatha appears to have been run by a group of relatively immature 'kids' who were not properly supervised by more mature Christians - they were bound to make a few mistakes that got them into trouble, both with individuals who were hurt, and the outside church en masse. Regarding the hurt individual members, it seems to me that we have no evidence from the article that they suffered serious, possibly lifetime, traumas as one might expect from a genuine cult admininistering ritual abuse or similar. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

I dispute Jon's assertion that no cultic practices cannot manipulate people. THere is a body of evidence that this not only CAN occur but DOES occur. Hundreds of articles...published in reputable journals of pyschology. Does Jon believe that the people in Jonestown were not manipulated and controlled?

(Comment: Or effectively influenced into belief? Although the tragic outcome may be the same, there is a significant difference compared to actual control. Believe me, looking from the inside of the Christian culture, I can tell you of countless instances where an individual, one who simply doesn't want to cooperate with the mainstream, or wants to 'do their own thing' regardless of how it adversely affects others, yells accusations of "controlling spirit" at their leaders. Which reminds me, in the whole of our society, from the nuclear family, to our schools, to our sports teams, to our businesses, to our military and so on, there exists authority structures. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an authority structure that is effective and, of course, contains some people who tell others what to do and, my oh my, expect them to do it! The reports behind the article suggest that the Maranatha group was excessively authoritative, but doesn't give any evidence sufficient for us, the readers, to judge for ourselves whether or not it was. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

One basic fallacy in Jon's thinking is that the control hypothesis is one sided. In cultic groups peer pressure, love bombing and the members own pyschological condition are used to convince the member to convince themselves. This not only occurs in religious groups...but in the highly publicized case of Patty Hearst and the well know study that coined the term the "Stockholm Syndrome". No one is required to follow the mandate to tithe- but the members are coerced and manipulated. From the ICC to The Children of God to The Way International to MCM coercion has occired.

Here are links http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

International Cultic Studies Associaton:http://www.csj.org/

Here is a link for those who want to read scholarly works on cultic manipulation that reads like a verbatim of MCM abuses: http://www.cultinfobooks.com/infoserv_icsa/icsa_about.htm

Here is link to Cultic Study Review a compilation of well respected Christian and Non Christian researchers:http://www.culticstudiesreview.org/csr_issues/csr_about.htm

Here is a link to Margaret Singer, PhD who led the scientific research effort to collate and categorize cultic practices that can lead to manipulation and control of the kind that Jon Mosely disputes http://www.rickross.com/groups/singer.html

Here is link to the "Apologetics Index" that has a compilation of other sources and readings that will contradict J Mosleys biased and unscientific assertions:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b09.html

Here is an excellent resource from a respected scholar and expert on Mind Control and Religious Cults http://www.freedomofmind.com/

And also a link to the New England Institute of Religious Research http://www.neirr.org/

A cursory reading of the Gigantic Body of scientific research will show that Jon Mosely's assertion that no one can be coerced is not only misguided it is blantly misleading.

FORMER MEMBER - Posted 12/29/2013. I was a member of Maranatha at Georgia Tech during 85 and 86. I left because there was an enormous amount of pressure put on me and my fiance, who was also a member, to dissolve our engagement. However, I would dispute that this was a cult. Indeed, it brought me closer to the knowledge of Christ and many positive things were a result. I did marry and divorce that fiance, I might add, so some might say that Maranatha was right. I have no opinion on that. Although they could sometimes have what some would perceive as extreme views (and sometimes I did too), I think their heart was in the right place because they were trying to confront sins that had become acceptable in the modern age. Just because some pastors on certain campuses may have been "authoritarian", you cannot discount an entire group based on the sins of a few. All in all, calling it a cult (which they did on our campus too) is too extreme. Because I was well known around campus, my reputation lent credibility to the group and the Student Council allowed us to put a chapter on campus in 85. I recognize both it's positive and negative attributes, but ultimately, God uses everything for His purpose and it ultimately aided in my Christian walk. (Name withheld out of respect for former Husband. Post a question here and your email and I'll respond.)

"NPOV dispute'
Unless clearcut examples of violation of neutrality can be provided within the next 7 days, I will be calling for the removal of the tag.Osakadan 16:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I would ask that removal of this tag be provided by 12/31/2006. The evidence is beyond dispute and the citations made are in the public record. 04:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)TIK TOK 1984

"NPOV dispute removal dispute'
Jcr4runner

Au contraire.

I would recommend that the POV dispute tag be KEPT until the article is substantially edited. TIK TOK is entitled to his opinion, but it should be known that it is an opinion and the article should be extensively revised by a third party to ensure journalistic neutrality. This type of thing -- attacking a church -- might occur on blogs and discussion groups, but not on Wikipedia. It diminishes Wikipedia's value as a source of factual information.

The reasons being:

1. The article is primarily an attack on Every Nation and seeks to prove its aberrant nature by providing "Links to Maranatha Ministries." The POV is a glorified conspiracy theory implying that the "link" is secretive even though the founders of Maranatha (Bob Weiner) and Every Nation (Rice Broocks) have written autobiographies in which they chronicle their relationship with each other. These would be TAKE DOMINION and CHANGE THE CAMPUS CHANGE THE WORLD. The "link" is really a moot point. It's like advancing a theory about "The Secret Zionist Conspiracy within the State of Israel." There is no conspiracy or secret.

2. The various founders and leaders of both groups have produced extensive books, autobiographies, magazines, newspapers, videos, DVDs etc. None of these are cited in the article. The main citations are articles written against the churches claiming they are aberrant in some way. I would recommend more information from TAKE DOMINION and CHANGE THE CAMPUS CHANGE THE WORLD as well as articles written by current members themselves. Most of the journalistic criticism cited comes not eyewitness accounts, but from a biased and tertiary POV.

3. The article exists to chronicle the controversy rather than the history, activities, personalites and teachings of the church. The latter are quite interesting and newsworthy. These addditional facts ought to make up most of the article. I think the controversy should be included, but it should not be the main feature as is. This biased POV should be heavily cut and edited.

4. The writer of the article has stated his belief that it is a well-known fact that Maranatha was a "cult" -- but he does not define what a "cult" is and does not mention the fact that both EVERY NATION and MARANATHA have published extensive literature and church confessions that fall within the confines of Christian orthodoxy. These churches have upheld the standards of the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, etc. Experts in Christian orthodoxy who have written books and extensive articles on this topic, such as me, would interpret such a group as a "Christian church" and definitely not a "Christian cult." A Christian cult is a group that violates several tenets of Christian orthodoxy agreed upon by all churches (such as the ecumenical creeds, etc.) Whether or not other doctrinal and practical problems exist is relevant, but these do not necessarily define a religious group as being a "cult."

I write as a former member of Maranatha (1987-1989) who readily admits some disagreements with both Maranatha and Every Nation's doctrines and practices. However, in NO WAY can this article be considered neutral.

(Comment: As I have mentioned above, the article seems to me to be only reporting information that is, itself, biased. i.e. the reports from investigations into Maranatha. Perhaps we need to know more about Maranatha itself and how it operated other that from investigations. This might include naterial from ex-members and/or leaders, as well as those opposing it. Of course, the author could be sifting the available information in an apparently neutral manner. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

Jcr4runner 04:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)JCR4RUNNER

(Final Comment: The information from the investigations is typical of any 'outsider' looking in to a Christian culture - they are simply not going to understand it. Therefore, their conclusions need to be carefully weighed up in context before accepting them as being true. Dare I say, they are not 'Gospel' ;-)

e.g. tithing and no dating are not intrinsically evil, although when enforced, they effectively become unenforcable. Rebellious human nature will soon see to that! Tithing may put money into the pockets of the leaders, though some would just call this a wage or salary - otherwise, starve in a field! For most churches, part of the tithing is used for community support, charitable acts, missions and so on. And no dating? Dating obviously leads to sex, and sex to single-parent children. If you don't already know the facts, then do the research and discover the numerous and significant negative effects of children who grow up in single-parent households. Perhaps no dating until ready to marry might actually just be an astonishingly beneficial blessing to society when looking at the big picture. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

Noogle, you are being a little naive about the dating situation at MCM. In fact it was referred to as "The Dating Revelation". This was about control, and not about dating. Marriages were often arranged by elders. Some succeeded some failed miserably. In every way, this was cultish.

As to tithing, it exists in some parts of christianity. But in MCM it wasn't about community support or charitable acts. You would be luck to find one example. MCM was elitist and either ignored or chased away anyone needy. That we were referred to as God's elite army should tell you the thinking. In every aspect, it was a socialogical cult.Osakadan 09:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Noogle is being naive. He (and indeed Maranatha) were basically stating that one should be careful about marriage and to make sure that prayer was involved in being equally yoked. That may seem strange in today's "accepting" culture, but it's no different than what most churches teach and it is very biblical. Because the church was trying to do the right thing, but may have used the wrong methods, it has obviously went through a process of cleansing, which is why it was ultimately disbanded. But, the controversey was mostly over the fact that IN MOST CASES, Maranatha was trying to stay true to God's word and a few used that as a way to bash Christianity. The church was split over the authoritarian methods, but even those guilty of it, later saw where they made a mistake and repented. The organization was ultimately good and brought many people to Christ. I think people are getting too hung up on semantics and not looking at all the good it provided. It brought "popular" kids and "wall flowers" together in unity. It's not like it was a Jim Jones or David Koresh group for goodness sakes. (Name withheld in respect for former husband. Post here and I can respond.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.96.165.26 (talk) 23:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Third-Party
I have done some major cleanup to this article, as well as added some new source citations and added fact tags to statements which need sources but do not currently have them. I have also added sub-sections to make it easier to read, an organizational info box, and made other changes which affect the readability and neutrality of the article.

I should note that I have never been involved in Every Nation, Maranatha, or any of its subsidiary ministries, so my edits come as an third-party observer simply wanting to make this article better, and more NPOV. It does seem like there has been a lot of edit warring since this article was created, which may have contributed to the chaotic state it was in when I arrived.

One thing this article could really use is more sources, as there are so many statements which don't seem to be collaborated with a Reliable source. Also, a lot of the arguments on this talk page seem to be based around anecdotal evidence and personal experiences, which are not citable in an encyclopedic article such as this. Newspaper articles and other sources would be much more useful.

Well, those are my thoughts. Cheers. Xanthius 20:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I also edited a small section. A rugby player that is unaffiliated with MCM was listed as being affiliated. Reverend Revered —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reverend Reverend (talk • contribs) 03:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sick and Twisted Individual
The Main Author of this article on Maranatha Campus Ministries is a sick and twisted individual. You sound like a little baby. Crying, crying. You omitted a great deal from the article when you write your "history", and did not have the guts to save any of the truths that were added, even though they were footnoted and credible.

You failed to mention any of the International Student Ministry that Marantha engaged in. All you did was attack. Maranatha was an international student ministry. Are you going to mention that at all? Probably not. Bob was trying to get us to reach out to Internationals. They were lonely and just wanted a friend. Talk to them. They loved Maranatha!

Maranatha didn't allow dating. Boo hoo! Grow up. What's so great about today's mega-churches with their dating, multiple marriages, and the what not? Nothing.

Maranatha didn't mandate tithing, and you know it. Where are credible sources pertaining to this?

I know, I know. Your saying to yourself. "It's guys like you who ruin the Wikipedia experience." Why? Because you can't rant and rave against Bob Weiner for a page and a half? Poor Bob, he was just trying to help a lost generation.

I tried to clean up your biased article around a year ago, but you took out all of my edits. I see you still have not submitted anything to Wikipedia that Maranatha's main ministry was to reach out to International Students. Until you do, you are hypocrite. Poor Bob and Rose. They had guts. They got us to look at everything in our lives, and face it head on. Abortion, homosexuality, sleeping around, hatin gour parents, drinking booze, drugs. What thanks do they get? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.138.111 (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

One of the three links referring to Faith Christian Church of Tucson, Arizona is broken, and the other two links DO NOT support what is refuted. A better source than a "letter to the editor" encouraging Satanic evangelists would be helpful. Wikipedia encourages a neutral pov.

I will amend them unless I see changes made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthropologyman (talk • contribs) 03:05, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Overall Proposed Improvements
Someone may want to link to the Facebook group named "Maranatha Ministries International, former members"(see MaranathaMinistriesReunion@groups.facebook.com). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthropologyman (talk • contribs) 03:28, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Objective/No Unfounded Allegations
As Wikipedia has standards against bias and FOR a Neutral Point of View (NPOV), the community should monitor this page. Many of the accusations posted appear to have no objective corroborating evidence. I am in no way associated with Maranatha and never have been, just helping the community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclingmanofthesouthwest (talk • contribs) 15:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Please note the changing section under "Breakup." "Accusations of abuse" appear to be little more than name-calling and do not approach a responsible level of "evidence" as used in professional environs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclingmanofthesouthwest (talk • contribs) 13:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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