Talk:Marble Hill, South Australia

::Dear Richard Nine marne budni - Kaurna greeting:

 * Thank you too for the acknowledgement above, "Thank you for supplying us with SA Govt rejects Marble Hill claim. This is from ABC News (Australia) ..."


 * I make it quite [clear] here and now that if you seriously, considerately read the MH Article Discussion Page above & implemented Talk page guidelines, you too would have seen that in fact YH had noted this link shortly after it was originally publically published online ... that credit is his, not mine ...


 * I feel somewhat patronised by your apparent passive threatening comment, the additional official Norman B Tindale anthropological Kaurna Place Names published information had also been added some time ago so it is hardly a case of vandalism, in fact if anyone is actually a vandal, it is we whitefellas on Kaurna since 1836 ... see http://kudnarto.tripod.com/ch1.htm#2 "The Vandals are perhaps best known for their sack of Rome in 455. Although they were not notably more destructive than others, the high regard which later European cultures held for ancient Rome led to the association of the name of the tribe with vandalism: senseless destruction, particularly in diminution of aesthetic appeal or destruction of objects that were completed with great effort."

["The Vandals were an East Germanic tribe that entered the late Roman Empire during the 5th century. The Goth Theodoric the Great, king of the Ostrogoths and regent of the Visigoths, was allied by marriage with the Vandals as well as with the Burgundians and the Franks under . "]


 * Yet neither YH, any other wikiEditor including yourself, has ever seriously and in good faith, I now say, let alone demonstrating real academic or encyclopedic historical and geographic professionalism, actually acknowledged, accepted, absorbed, addressed nor redressed their relative merits and conciliatory considerations for inclusion in a timely sense. I am grateful you now have some inkling however clearly with that "reluctant" Administrator threat, I have to question your good faith too. I suggest shifting your paradigm, could, would help me and we whit[e]fellas support Kaurna & other [pre-eminent] Sovereign Original People more as per King William IV South Australia Letters Patent and Governor Captain John Hindmarsh "Proclamation" 1836 ...


 * I'd (& I guess wikipedia) also appreciate a referenced Anglo-Saxon translation into International English, British English or Australian English on here because sadly since 1066 my Anglo-Saxon-Welsh linguistic education has been neglected and as I'm slowly learning some Irish, I'd also value Anglo-Saxon & Welsh.
 * I'd appreciate a considered response in reply ... Nukkan Mifren (talk) 06:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

You are of course quite right, Yeti Hunter did give us the reliable source first and I missed it.

I've never been closer to South Australia than Port Moresby, but if I ever find myself in your part of the world I will certainly bear the Kaurna in mind. Richard Keatinge (talk) 07:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you Richard. I'll accept that acknowledgement as some sort of apology. I note though you have not actually really respected & me nor resourced Kaurna & other [pre-eminent enduring] Sovereign Original People of this island continent [sometime known as La Australia del Espiritu Santo (the southern land of the Holy Spirit), Terra Australis incognita Terra Australis Incognita] by answering some of my questions above. Irrespective I suppose you too may be interested in seeing Sovereign Yirrkala bark petitions that are relatively closer to Port Morseby see also http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/item.asp?sdID=100

Mifren (talk) 22:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeti Hunter Kaurna Land Title Claim Undo
Please discuss here in good faith before undoing YH, especially as it was you who first referenced that ABC Online News article which I have simply quoted.Mifren (talk) 01:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies, you did indeed only quote the article. I must have been thinking of the previous edit which did introduce new material. It is preferable not to quote news sources word for word, but to summarise them in new prose, which I think Richard's edit does adequately. My issue is whether the text should be included at all, reliable source or not, as discussed above.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that its inclusion is arguable, but on balance I'm definitely on the side of (suitably brief) inclusion. Summarization is indeed better than quoting, but I'm not stuck on my own wording. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I am pleased to see the personal admission & now 3rd slow wiki word war apology by YH finally of not being stuck because that seems to be more than half of YH's wikiEditing problem ... I now formally feedback and request an independent inquiry to reconcile, settle, remedy and cure into YH's collective behaviours towards my in good faith contributions to date which have been or otherwise I have felt as virtual harrassment outside of good faith.

FYI: "''The term 'Kaurna' was used by scholars for the Aboriginal people from the Adelaide area from the early 1900s. These people seemed to have been pushed out of Adelaide by the city's development. In 1836 there were 300 Kaurna people, the remnants of a much larger population reduced by smallpox and other diseases. In 1839 there was a group of Lutheran Missionaries teaching Kaurna literacy.

Now the descendants of these people are found on nearby mission settlements at Point Pearce on the Yorke Peninsula and Point McLeay near the Murray Mouth.

The Kaurna seem to have moved between the coast in summer months, for coastal berries and various sea life, including turtles, and the foothills in the colder weather which had better shelter and firewood. The inland areas also contained more mammals to hunt, and creeks and swamps contained fish and other water life.

The local people undertook periodic burning, which drove out game for hunting, and also encouraged certain kinds of edible plants such as yam daisies, thistles and cresses, as well as increasing the kind of plants eaten by hunted animals. They had well established travelling tracks, which were taken over by Europeans, and now are reflected in some road routes.

Their religious traditions and language set these people apart from most of their neighbours. In these fields they were more like northern groups. The Adelaide settlement attracted Aboriginal people from further afield, and also drove out the original groups, leaving a vacuum that other Aboriginal groups moved into, muddying the oral traditions of the area.

The Tandanya Aboriginal Cultural Institute in Adelaide was established in 1989.''" ARCHIVE - SOUTH HENLEY BEACH

Also, http://www.nntt.gov.au/Publications-And-Research/Tribunal-Research/Documents/Kaurna.pdf "Research Method The AIATSIS research material used for the Kaurna Report was supplemented by relevant references found in Tindale’s (1974) Aboriginal Tribes of Australia under the heading ‘Kaurna’, and the following general references: • Curr, E.M. 1886-7, The Australian Race; • Howitt, A.W. 1904-1996, The Native Tribes of South-East • Ehrlich L. 1922, Origins of Australian Beliefs; • Davidson, D.S. 1938, A Preliminary Register of Australian Tribes and Hordes; • Tindale, N. 1940, Distribution of Australian aboriginal tribes • Capell, A. 1963, Linguistic Survey of Australia; • O’Grady, G.N., Wurm, S.A. & Hale, K.L. 1966, Aboriginal Languages of Australia; • Tindale, N. 1974, Aboriginal Tribes of Australia; • Horton, D. ed. 1994, Encyclopaedia of Aboriginal Australia. Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies; • Sutton, P. 1995, Country: Aboriginal Boundaries and Land Ownership in Australia; and • Davis, S. 1993, Australia’s Extant and Imputed Traditional Aboriginal Territories. The search was made only from the ‘print collection’ of the AIATSIS online catalogue, Mura, since sound tapes, film sources and material on microfilm are difficult to process within the time and resource constraints. The AIATSIS catalogue displayed 231 titles using Kaurna in the ‘word or phrase’ and ‘language group’ fields. A search was also made of HERA, an Environment Australia web catalogue1 of heritage survey research reports and other relevant material. The aim of the search was to identify additional relevant materials that may not be held by AIATSIS. This catalogue displayed 41 possible sources for 5 major cities or towns in the location. Materials with access restrictions were omitted from the list of items requested, as were foreign language materials, obvious duplications, microforms and material that appeared to deal with technical aspects of language or education curricula. In addition a search was made of the Tribunal’s library holdings for material relevant to the region. These items have also been listed in the bibliography. Bibliography Amery, R. 2000, Warrabarna Kaurna! Reclaiming an Australian Language, Swets & Zeitlinger, Lisse, The Netherlands. Amery, R. & Simpson, J. 1994, ‘Kaurna’, in N. Thieberger & W. McGregor eds, Macquarie Aboriginal Words: a dictionary of words from Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander languages, Macquarie Library Pty Ltd, New South Wales, pp. 144-172. Amery, R. 1998, ‘Sally and Harry: Insights into early Kaurna contact history’, in J. Simpson & L. Hercus eds, History in Portraits: Biographies of nineteenth century South Australian Aboriginal people, Aboriginal History Monograph 6, Southwood Press, Sydney, pp. 49-87. Basedow, H. 1925, The Australian Aboriginal (1929), F.W. Preece & Sons, Adelaide. Bell, D. 1998, Ngarrinjerri Wurruwarrin: a world that is, was, and will be, Spinifex Press, North Melbourne. Berndt, R.M. 1940, ‘Some Aspects of Jaralde Culture, South Australia’ in Oceania, vol. 11, no. 2, pp. 164-185. Berndt, R.M. 1940, ‘A Curlew and Owl Legend From The Narunga Tribe South Australia’, Oceania, vol. 10, no. 4, pp. 456-462. 1 http://www.environment.gov.au/webpac-bin/wgbroker?new+-access+top"


 * NOTE: I've collapsed much of the above post as it is not relevant to the discussion, which is about the revert, or extent of the revert, to the proposed addition of a section on an aboriginal land claim over the site.
 * By the way Mifren, if you really do want to "formally request an independent inquiry" into my supposed harassment of yourself, you can do so at Wikiquette Alerts, WP:WQA.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Native land claims
 * The Kaurna people wrote and delivered to the Governor asserting pre-eminent dominium sovereignty over the Marble Hill ruins and that they were owed in real estate law nearly $50 million over 130 years back rent. In 2009 the South Australian government rejected the claim under Native Title.


 * The Kaurna People
 * The Kaurna people roamed most of the area of the Fleurieu Peninsula for thousands of years. Their area stretched from the tip of Cape Jervis north as far as Port Wakefield along the eastern shore of St Vincent's Gulf and east to an area somewhere between Mt Lofty and Mt Barker.


 * The name Kaurna is pronounced either "Garner" or "Gowna" depending on which end of their land you might come from. In 1842, it was reported in The Register that there were only 650 true Kaurna people left in the Colony. The last surviving female full blood Kaurna woman, Ivaritji, died in 1931, but provided Indigenous Anthropologists with a good deal of what we know of the early Kaurna people today. There are still many people living on the Fleurieu who claim Kaurna ancestral heritage.


 * The Peramangk People
 * In the Mt Lofty Ranges, around Mt Barker and down as far as Wellington and Myponga, lived the Peramangk people." Mifren (talk) 01:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * NOTE: I've refactored the above three headings added by Mifren into the "Yeti Hunter Undo" section. Please stay on topic - is the section worthy of inclusion or isn't it? Adding different proposed wordings and irrelevent information is not helpful. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A week later; are there any objections to me removing the section again? IMHO, it lacks sufficient notability for inclusion into this article, which after all is about a geographic place. Neither Adelaide nor Fleurieu Peninsula nor South Australia make any reference to aboriginal land claims, though there are numerous extant claims over those areas that have uncontestable notability. The claims are dealt with in the appropriate place - on List of native title claims in South Australia or on the article of the tribe making the claim (although I note that Kaurna doesn't even mention the 2000 Registered Claim). And as far as reliable sources go, this is about as thin as you can get. It's an 86 word, four sentence article that didn't make it into any print media, where two of those sentences are about the fact that the claim had no basis and one is about a different claim altogether. The case for inclusion in this article is extremely shaky, though it probably could be included in the Kaurna article, or the native title article, though you could also argue that that would demean the importance of real native title claims. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:06, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose the idea of deleting the section entirely. I agree with your point about the case being shaky. However, from the other side of the world, it seems that the Kaurna have made Marble Hill a bit of a centrepiece for their claims, and within the history of Marble Hill the claim seems reasonable to include. Very briefly! Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it can be argued that it is a centrepiece. The main Kaurna land claim over the Fleurieu peninsula makes not mention of Marble Hill, nor do the proponents of the Marble Hill claim make mention of it. Mifren himself has repeatedly stressed that the two are entirely different. It seem to me that we are rewarding tendentiousness with an unwarranted concession. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree the claim for inclusion is marginal, but from the other side of the globe it does seem slightly interesting. I agree it feels like a concession to tendentious editing, but I didn't mean it as such. Perhaps I could offer very weak oppose to the idea of removing it. :-) Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case...
 * I've removed the information from this article and put it where it belongs - in an article where the self published sources can be used, as the authors of them are directly related to the subject of the article, and their veracity or otherwise can be left for readers to decide.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems a very reasonable solution to me. I have taken the liberty of adding the appropriate link in the See Also section. I think we now have a good encyclopedic solution and I hope it remains stable. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Native land claims
Kaurna wrote to the Governor claiming sovereignty over the Marble Hill ruins and that they were owed nearly $50 million in rent. In 2009 the South Australian Government Attorney General's Department rejected the claim.

Unlawful land grab
12 Dec 2009 "South Australia was built on a land grab that breached British laws protecting the rights of Aboriginal people, a new book claims.

Edited by lawyer Shaun Berg, Coming to Terms examines documents which show the settlers were required to obtain land from the indigenous people only with their consent.

A plan was even set up to allow for the purchase of transfer of the land but was ignored, the book claims."

"Put simply, at the beginning of 1836, Aboriginal people owned all of the land," Mr Berg said.

"By the end of the same year they owned none of it."" Mifren (talk) 14:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I have removed it... Mifren, again I'd like to remind you that this is an encyclopaedic article about a building. There may be other places to go into the history of land grabs. This definitely isn't one of them.


 * Mifren, you have requested comments. You have got comments that say what others have said to you repeatedly. "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

''If as you say Richard that this "Marble Hill, South Australia" Article is only about the "building", why is there then so much about the Governors or so much else? Where then is the Wikipedia Article for Marble Hill area like there now is for Cherryville or the rest of the Marble Hill property? Remembering that there was a land subdivision started by our former Ministers Hon John Hill MP Kaurna & finished by Hon Gail Gago MLC leading to the recent sale of 22Ha by our current South Australian Government Aboriginal Affairs and Reconciliation & Department of Environment and Conservation Minister Hon Jay Weatherill MP Cheltenham (NOTE: the "con" in both Reconciliation and Conservation) for a mere $819 000 shortly after selling more Kaurna-Ramindjeri Yerta at Oaklands Estate Reserve to Marion City Council for a mere $2.00. The "building" as you say is mostly a bushfired ruin back to the Kaurna Yerta sandstone rocks from whence it was built. Sadly I continue to fail to fully comprehend your assumptive logic lacking in shared established international standard qualified geographic and historic premises. Especially now late yesterday afternoon that Lawyer Editor Shaun Berg has now book launched by former Australian High Court Justice Hon Michael Kirby "Coming to Terms" on King William IV South Australia Letters Patent 19 Feb 1836.'' Mifren (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Unlawful land grab PART2 ...
...respecting, recognising, resourcing Ramindjeri or does Norman B Tindale's so called "['KAURNA]" actually or ever exist-ed other than legal fictions created by people wanting money!? See http://www.nntt.gov.au/Applications-And-Determinations/Registration-Test/Documents/2011/March%202011/SC10_3-1%2024032011.pdf --Mifren (talk) 17:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

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