Talk:Marble Hill, South Australia/Archive 2

near the Kaurna "... Jultiwira (stringy bark forests) of the Mount Lofty Ranges ... traditional boundary..."
Mifren, would you be kind enough to give a suitable reference for the above text? I don't find the string "Marble" in http://kudnarto.tripod.com/, for instance, although I thought it might be what you are suggesting. After that we can discuss whether the text is useful in an article on one specific building. (I would find it interesting to know who used the site before the British arrived, but, please, only if you can find a suitable source specifying use of this site.) Further problems with your text are that it does not make anything about this site clear to me. Stringybark forests are mentioned already. And Jultiwira appears to be a redlink; I don't think it's an English word and if it's a Kaurna one it may belong in the article on that language, but not here. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * http://www.google.com/search?q=Jultiwira+%28stringy+bark+forests%29+of+the+Mount+Lofty+Ranges+...+traditional+boundary...%22&rls=com.microsoft:en-au:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7HPAB_en may help?Mifren (talk) 15:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Most hits appear to be sites derived directly from Wikipedia, and the rest don't make clear any connection to this site, so yes, it seems clear that this edit is without merit. I propose to revert it again, and I suggest that it stays reverted until its problems are addressed.

Mifren, can I remind you that we are trying to write an encyclopedia article about a building? I applaud your efforts in the direction of justice but this article is simply not the place for them. A brief, well-referenced mention to strictly relevant facts would be welcome, as I've suggested before. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Richard (& other wikiEditors) I have already provided you with the Sovereign facts above.
 * Additionally see: http://www.museumstuff.com/learn/topics/Kaurna::sub::Lands
 * I've already now reminded you Richard on your Talk page of my own Welsh Sovereignty through Deheubarth Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr Mawr by his wife, Gwladys ferch Rhiwallon. Deheubarth was then (as you possibly well know) conquered by King Henry I of England and the Normans. My maternal maternal (Grandmother Esme) Norwood-Brown Sovereign Anglo-Saxon ancestry Harold Godwinson or King Harold II (Old English: Harold Gōdwines sunu; c. 1022 – 14 October 1066) was the last Anglo-Saxon King of England before the Norman Conquest.[1] Harold reigned from 5 January 1066, until his murder at the Battle of Hastings on 14 October of that same year, fighting the Norman invaders led by William Duke of Normandy. As HM Queen Elizabeth holds Duke of Normandy title, I thus have to question the legitimacy of succession to the Anglo-Saxon Crown and thus your own historical interpretation and comprehension of wikiEditing. In effect supporting 1770 British then since 1801, United Kingdom cultural usurpation of Kaurna Sovereignty. How then can you possibly comment with such a clear conflict of interest?
 * Um....    (dumbfounded) ....       this is a piss-take, isn't it? It just has to be. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 08:05, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll limit my comment to reiteration. We are here to write an encyclopedia article about a building in South Australia. Native land claims to its site may well be worth brief mention, if a suitable reliable source can be found. I wish you every success in finding, or generating, such a source. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * OPEN LETTER RESPONSE WITHOUT PREJUDICE, FEAR OR FAVOUR
 * -- Forwarded message --
 * From: Matthew Fowler
 * Date: 2009/12/6
 * Subject: Kaurna-Ramindjeri Sovereignty
 * To: Prof Marcia Langton Population Health , Noel Pearson , Gary Foley, M & R McMurtrie, Aden Ridgeway, "ALRM: CE - Neil Gillespie" , Frank Lampard , Karno Walker, Georgina Williams, Joan Lamont, Paul Dixon, Heather Agius, Carol Agius, Garth Agius, Lynette Crocker , Tim Campbell , Shaun Berg , Diane Bell , Henry Reynolds , Aboriginal Engagement Commissioner Klynton Wanganeen , "Wanganeen, Klynton (DPC)" , Frank Wanganeen, Shane Wanganeen, g.robertson@doughtystreet.co.uk
 * Cc: AD SDNP NSW Julia Melland , AD NE DNP Qld Dr James Page , SA Democrats Party Office , Hon Sandra Kanck , "Government House (GH)" , Office of the Official Secretary to the Governor-General <governor-general@gg.gov.au>, "Rotary District 9500 Governor 2009-10 South Australia Alun W (& Vicky) Hughes", AD former Parliamentary Leader & Vic Senator <lynallison4@gmail.com>, Dr Lynn Arnold <larnold@anglicare-sa.org.au>, Dr Cameron Raynes <editor@peninsulapress.com.au>, Mark Aldridge, "Coleman, Neil S/Con Community Constable 8207 9411 Salisbury (SAPOL)" <Neil.Coleman@police.sa.gov.au>, Rosslyn Cox <reconciliationsa@yahoo.com.au>, Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Reconciliation Dr Duncan McFetridge <morphett@parliament.sa.gov.au>, morialta@parliament.sa.gov.au, Felicity Lewis/CoM <Mayor_-_City_of_Marion@marion.sa.gov.au>, AD NE ACT Pres Darren Churchill <darren.churchill@act.democrats.org.au>


 * Dear Prof Marcia Langton Population Health <marciall@unimelb.edu.au>, "Noel Pearson" <info@cyi.org.au>, "Gary Foley", "Mark & R McMurtrie", "Aden Ridgeway", "ALRM: CE - Neil Gillespie" <NeilG@alrm.org.au>, "Frank Lampard" <Frank.Lampard@aposs.net.au>, "Aboriginal Engagement Commissioner Klynton Wanganeen" <commissioner.ae@dpc.sa.gov.au>,


 * To all to whom these Presents shall come Greeting.
 * Given you are leading lights for Sovereign Original People of this island continent since http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/resources/transcripts/cth3i_doc_1900.pdf . As you too may well be aware Sovereign Ramindjeri Spokesman "Karno Walker", is holding a Land Claim Public Meeting Dec16 from 6pm from South of the Torrens River to Kangaroo ::Island & 13km out to sea which naturally overlaps Registered Sovereign Kaurna and Ngarrindjeri Land Claims.


 * I am writing, respecting, recognising, resourcing and responding as a Queen's Scout by Royal Warrant 1983,


 * "VIII. And We do hereby require and command all Our Officers and Ministers, Civil and
 * Military, and all other the inhabitants of Our said Commonwealth to be obedient, aiding, and
 * assisting unto Our said Governor General, or, in the event of his death, incapacity, or absence,
 * to such person or persons as may, from time to time, under the provisions of these Our Letters
 * Patent, administer the Government of Our said Commonwealth.
 * IX. And We do hereby reserve to Ourselves Our heirs and successors, full power and
 * authority from time to time to revoke, alter, or amend these Our Letters Patent as to Us or
 * them shall seem meet."


 * As an Immediate Past 2007 Australian Parliament Kingston Candidate, I with others helped (via our three Crown Rights to be consulted, encourage and to warn), Kaurna assert enduring Sovereignty to our SA Governor, His Excellency Rear Admiral Kevin Scarce at Government House March 29
 * http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=69398&id=618637254&l=ef707e71bd
 * which included a $47.5M 130 year backrent 90 days due bill for former summer Vice Regal Residence Marble Hill. Returning Jun29, ::http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=71928&id=618637254&l=e220991089
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Marble_Hill,_South_Australia#Marble_Hill_130_Years_Back_Rent_Due


 * Thus there remains on-going Sovereignty questions:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Marble_Hill,_South_Australia#Kaurna_.26_Peramangk


 * I'd appreciate constructive considered responses as to these International Law and Constitutional matters.
 * Especially as our South Australian thus Australian Government has not rejected Sovereignty only our "SA Attorney-General's Department says native title over the site was extinguished in the 1800s."


 * http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/01/2614089.htm "
 * SA Govt rejects Marble Hill claim


 * Posted Wed Jul 1, 2009 5:30pm AEST


 * * Map: Adelaide 5000


 * The South Australian Government says it has no case to answer in an Aboriginal land claim over an historic site in the Mount Lofty Ranges.


 * The Kaurna people wrote to the Governor claiming sovereignty over the Marble Hill ruins and that they were owed nearly $50 million in rent.


 * But the SA Attorney-General's Department says native title over the site was extinguished in the 1800s.


 * The Kaurna are still negotiating a claim over the Adelaide region, which includes an area to the north of the ruins."


 * Kind regards, sincerely
 * Matthew Fowler BSc (UWoll 1988)
 * http://www.facebook.com/matthewrobertfowler?ref=name
 * NAIDOC Non Indigenous Person of the Year 1996 Central Australia Co-Recipient
 * Encompass Technology - 0411 572 344
 * Figtree Networks www.figtree-networx.com.au
 * Figtree Networks www.figtree-networx.com.au


 * Our continuing Mission since 12 July 1996: community synergy through personal, professional & community development ...
 * REMEMBER that there is no "I" in TEAM = Together Everybody Achieves More &
 * Work SMART = Specific+Measureable+Achieveable+Realistic+Timely
 * If you are not part of the solution, are you part of the problem!???


 * P Please consider the environment before printing this email


 * I, by a 1983 Royal Warrant Queen's Scout, acknowledge Yerta, this Land around "Adelaide", as the Traditional Lands of 9x identified Apical Ancestral Sovereign Original People of this island continent sometime known as La Australia del Espiritu Santo (the southern land of the Holy Spirit), Terra Australis incognita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis_Incognita and that I respect, recognise, support and seek to help resource their descendants' Spiritual, Physical, Economic, Mental and Social-Emotional relationship with their Country's Sovereignty in perpetuity. I also recognise the Sovereign Custodians before our 1986 "Queen of Australia" & 1836 "Adelaide Region" and that their inherent Cultural and Spiritual beliefs continue to sustain descendants living today. WITHOUT PREJUDICE - ALL RIGHTS RESERVED"Mifren (talk) 21:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've collaped the above note as it does not constructively add to the discussion. - Peripitus (Talk) 22:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It is interesting to see Sovereignty being "collapsed" and reduced from an "::OPEN LETTER RESPONSE WITHOUT PREJUDICE, FEAR OR FAVOUR" to a note

"::Especially as our South Australian thus Australian Government has not rejected Sovereignty only our "SA Attorney-General's Department says native title over the site was extinguished in the 1800s."


 * http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/01/2614089.htm "
 * SA Govt rejects Marble Hill claim


 * Posted Wed Jul 1, 2009 5:30pm AEST


 * * Map: Adelaide 5000


 * The South Australian Government says it has no case to answer in an Aboriginal land claim over an historic site in the Mount Lofty Ranges.


 * The Kaurna people wrote to the Governor claiming sovereignty over the Marble Hill ruins and that they were owed nearly $50 million in rent.


 * But the SA Attorney-General's Department says native title over the site was extinguished in the 1800s.


 * The Kaurna are still negotiating a claim over the Adelaide region, which includes an area to the north of the ruins."" Is it not in the post 1770, 1788, 1836, 1900, 1901, 1986 "Australian" national interest and State thus conflict of interest to do so?121.209.32.93 (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Equally intriguing is "http://www.basicfraud.com/main-0/index.php" ... "This has enormous ramifications when considering International Treaties entered into by the these Governments, any Australian political appointments, the banking laws, the whole Court System, just to name a few, have NO legitimacy and are totally null and void." ... "then you really need to study this website now and learn the truth, as you may have a justified case for 'Human Rights Abuse' and you might even be in a position for a substantial compensation claim against them for 'economic deprivation'" ... "However, if you are an Australian, New Zealander or Canadian citizen who is not being persecuted by your government at present, but who is concerned for your future and that of your Country, this website may then open your eyes to the political and judicial abuse of power and the associated corruption, manipulation and deceptive behaviour" ...Mifren (talk)


 * Further details Richard etal may thanks to Peripitus' suggestion be found at: Warrabarna+Kaurna!:+reclaiming+an+Australian+language by Dr Robert AmeryMifren (talk) 00:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I find it intriguing Richard that on one hand there is no contest for the context of wikipedia "English" nomenclature over Kaurna but when it actually comes to Norman B Tindale's anthropological works, there is an amazing silence and or total revisionist history as though Kaurna never existed pre-1836 King William IV South Australia Letters Patent & then Governor Capt John Hindmarsh Commander in chief Proclamation. I was just watching "Women of the Sun" mini-series like John Pilger's "A Secret Country" and wonder where in that spectrum wikiEditors fit? Especially as a medical man your Primum non nocere Oath I thought was to do no harm whereas it seems to me at least that there is a real risk of perpetrating or perpetuating the harm we whitefellas especially as post 1770 Anglo-Europeans or CaucasiansMifren (talk) 06:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

LOCAL KAURNA YERTA PLACE NAMES

 * KOBANDIL:A
 * KOR:A PERNGGA KAR:AUWIR:APARI
 * KOR:AJANGDONGGA MEDAINDI KAINKAWIR:A
 * KAR:AWIR:ANGGA WIRUNGGA TANDANJAPARI
 * KAR:AWIR:A KOR:AJERTANGGA MARI YATALA
 * KOR:APER:E TANDANJARI
 * KOR:AWIRA TANDANJA KULKAMAIWAR
 * KORAJERTA WAL:INGA
 * TARRDARUYA


 * POOTBOOBERRIE
 * KERTAWITA   NGULTA MAJUNAMARTE
 * MIMINI MULALA
 * BULUMEIL ITINAWAR JURE


 * WATIPARINGA

It will be interesting to see how quickly your revert will be ... Mifren (talk) 07:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Richard removing "meaningless" wikilinks
While I concur that there is no meaning for Richard insofar everything is empty and meaningless as http://www.landmarkeducation.com teaches, the meaning for me at least demonstrated the lack of real linguistic translation into standard International English or Australian English for other wikiEditorial awareness raising.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mifren (talk • contribs) 13:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

A reliable source at last?
Mifren has supplied us with SA Govt rejects Marble Hill claim. This is from ABC News (Australia) which I hope is a reasonably reliable source. It does give a very brief account which supports the fact that the Kaurna, not just Matthew Fowler, have made a claim over this specific site, and that it has for the moment been rejected. I have edited the article accordingly.

Mifren, I am less happy to say that I agree with Yeti Hunter; your last edit is at least very close to vandalism. I accept that you are very sincere, but sincere addition of irrelevant material is still unconstructive. I would be reluctant to have you blocked but if you persistently insert irrelevancies into mainspace I will ask an administrator to take appropriate action. Again I repeat: this article is not the place for standing on your soapbox. How would you feel if I were to start replacing the article on England with reams of stuff in Latin, Welsh, Anglo-Saxon and Greek pointing out the illegitimacy of Anglo-Saxon claims to the land, which rightfully belongs to the Roman Empire and their local successors the Welsh princes? Even the Saxons admitted the violent nature of their takeover:

"Ne wearth wael mare

on thys ig-lande aefre gieta

folces gefielled beforan thissum

sweordes ecgum, thaes-the us secgath bec,

eald uthwitan, siththan eastan hider

Engle and Seaxe upp becomon,

ofer brad brimu Britene sohton,

wlance wig-smithas, Wealas ofercomon,

eorlas ar-hwaete eard begeaton."

- This just to make a point: we are here to write an encyclopedic article, and this is a necessarily-limited task. I welcome your knowledge and your good intentions, I wish you and the Kaurna well, but please press your detailed arguments about sovereignty elsewhere. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not entirely convinced that this outlandish claim is notable enough to appear in this article regardless of the reliable source, although I'm not about to get tendentious about it. All the sources provided for it are entirely unreliable, except the one about the fact that the claim was rejected (thus reinforcing the unreliability of the other sources). I still object to its inclusion on the grounds of WP:REDFLAG (exceptional claims require exceptional sources) and WP:COATRACK - this article is about a building and a suburb. The reference belongs in an article on aboriginal land claims, if anywhere. I mean, there isn't even a reference to the large, Fleurieu Peninsula encompassing Kaurna land claim in the Adelaide article, and that claim at least has a credible legal basis (not to mention dozens of reliable sources). But - I'm only a part time wikipedian and I'll happily defer to consensus. I don't think we have one here yet, even on the pro-inclusion side given Mifren's attempts to expand the section. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 23:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)