Talk:March Against Monsanto/Archive 3

Recent reverts

 * remove content based on commentary in Nature. Was written May 1; is not about the MaM nor in response to it.  Let's not recapticulate the whole GM controversy in this article but instead focus on the march

Jytdog, I'm afraid I don't understand your revert. Can you briefly explain why you left in Thargor Orlando's contribution which added content from a self-published 2003 position paper (a commentary by the Society of Toxicology), a 2011 opinion piece by Pamela Ronald, and a 2011 review by Ronald that cites evidence for a scientific consensus on safety from 2002, — while at the same time removing a May 2013 news piece from science journalist Natasha Gilbert in Nature that was not commentary?

In other words, why did you remove news content from 2013 that was not commentary while leaving in two old opinion pieces from 2003 and 2011, and one old review from 2011 that cited evidence from 2002? According to your inclusion criteria, that material should not be in the article. But, it still is. Why is that?

You said that this content was not about the march or in response to it, so why does the article still say "" when that content is old commentary that has nothing to do with this subject? Please clarify your seemingly hypocritical position here please. It seems like you are not being consistent.

Either you remove alll old, off-topic content (opinion or otherwise) or you leave it in. Which is it, Jytdog? Is there a reason that Thargor Orlando's pro-Monsanto contributions are immune from your inclusion criteria? Viriditas (talk) 02:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Viriditias. Strong words about "hypocrisy" on my talk page!  As has been stated many times on this page, there is a scientific consensus that currently marketed food from GMOs is as safe as/as risky as food from conventional organisms (it is not a broad statement - it is limited to currently marketed food, and it is relative).  As per WP:FRINGE, if a fringe statement is made, it must be corrected.  The protestors say that "GM food is dangerous" ( a broad, insupportable generalization, as absurd as "all food from GMOs is safe"), and that needs to be countered with the scientific consensus statement.  That's it.  1, then 2.   I am not invested in how the statement of the consensus is made; but the consensus existed before the march happened, so sources prior to the march are relevant and it reasonable that sources prior to the march would be used to support that statement.   Your insertion of argumentation against the consensus is off topic - adding a "3" after the 1, 2.  This article is about the march, it is not a battleground to fight the whole Controversies issue. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * You have not responded directly to the concerns raised about your double standards. Scientific consensus isn't established by cherry picking a self-published 2003 position paper by the Society of Toxicology or a 2011 opinion piece by Pamela Ronald, or a 2011 review by Ronald that cites evidence from 2002. That's not acceptable on Wikipedia, yet you claim that it doesn't matter because "fringe" concerns by protesters "must be corrected" by any means necessary.


 * There is nothing "fringe" in this article. Concerns about the safety of GM food are well established in the literature, and I've already covered them adequately on this page.  To date, 1) there is no significant scientific research on human health risks from GMOS 2) current safety testing fails to assess harm 3) there is a risk of toxic exposure, 4) there is a risk of allergic reaction 5) there is a risk posed to conventional and organic farmers from patent litigation 6) there is a risk to non-GMO crops (organic canola, for example, has been wiped out GMO canola) 7) there is a risk posed to biodiversity 8) there is a risk of increasing pesticide use 8) there is an economic risk to farming communities 9) there is a risk to democratic institutions, involving revolving doors between industry and government, lobbying, and corporate loopholes, and poor public policy making, and finally 10) there is a risk to consumer choice with the failure of labeling laws.  There is nothing "fringe" about these concerns, and they are all supported by reliable secondary sources.


 * I have not inserted any argumentation "against consensus". I cited a reliable secondary source written by a Nature news journalist from May 2013 that said ""Researchers, farmers, activists and GM seed companies all stridently promote their views, but the scientific data are often inconclusive or contradictory". It needs to be said that this Nature story is supported by other recent reliable sources showing that the literature is inconclusive or contradictory. Note, I did not have to rely on a self-published opinion piece as you did.  If you aren't going to accept the consensus that content must be about the event, both timely and relevant, then you aren't in a sound position to subjectively pick and choose what should stay.  You deliberately left outdated, pro-biotech opinion pieces, some of which were self-published, in this article because they pushed your chosen POV.  You then deliberately removed current, neutral news articles written by science journalists and scientists themselves that did not reflect your POV.  You also made false claims about the sources, claiming the news story was a commentary.


 * The bottom line is, we cannot depend on Monsanto lobbying groups or self-published opinion pieces by the Society of Toxicology from 2003. What we depend on are solid, current, reliable secondary sources written by neutral journalists and/or writers who present the topic in an accurate manner.  I believe that the current sources on this subject show that there is no scientific consensus on this matter, and the safety concerns expressed by protesters are sufficiently supported by relevant scientific data.  The only consensus on Monsanto's products appears to be coming from Monsanto and their lobbying group.  That is not acceptable.  I maintain that you are promoting a hypocritical, double standard of inclusion by keeping outdated, off-topic opinion pieces in this article that support Monsanto, while removing sources that don't. It should be very easy for you to represent the "scientific consensus" using the current sources in the article about the subject.  The reason you can't is telling. Viriditas (talk) 03:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, I heard you, that you think that either there should be no sources from before the march, or it is OK to have sources from before the march. That is your "rule".  While I did not explicitly say "I don't accept your rule" I did address it by saying that the consensus statement existed before the March so using sources from before the march is OK to support it.  So I did indeed respond to you - not perhaps as screamingly obviously as you may have liked, but I did respond.   Other responses to what you write above. I have said about 11 billion times now, as I did above, that the scientific consensus concerns only the relative safety of currently marketed GM foods.  Since it does not appear to be clear to you, let me clarify that the relative safety/risk that is discussed in the consensus statement, is the relative safety/risk for human health from eating said food.   That has nothing to do -- zippo -- with your items 3 through 10 and it is exasperating that you bring them to me.  Let me be even more clear. I have not commented on any of items 3) - 10)  on this page nor objected to any content about them on this page, so your angry laundry list is misdirected with respect to me.   Item 1 is actually a pretty silly statement (you may have an interesting point but the statement is too compressed to make sense of),  and 2, I am sorry to say, is a FRINGE opinion, if you mean it as broadly as you say it.   Also, I did not add any content to this article stating the consensus.  NOT EVER.  So please do not say I did and do not blame me for the selection of sources - as I wrote above I do not care how the statement is exactly stated and sourced -- it just needs to accurate and well sourced.   Finally, somewhere above here, I responded to your quote from Nature  - I noted that the extended quote in the article, from which you cherry-picked the sentence you quote here, does not say anything about the relative safety of currently marketed foods being the subject of scientific uncertainty.  It does discuss some of your items 3-10.  Have a good night. Jytdog (talk) 04:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Everything I've cited above is found reputable, reliable secondary sources. There is not a single thing listed above that can be considered "fringe" by any stretch of the definition, and I challenge you to put up or shut up with your claim. You are playing fast and loose with the facts, and by so doing, you are violating NPOV.  When you remove off-topic material from research professor Charles Benbrook, scientific opinion from François Houllier, and news reports from Natasha Gilbert—but keep off-topic material by research professor Pamela Davis Pamela Ronald, you are the one cherry picking the facts to fit your POV.  You also speciously claim that because you are only slectively removing material but leaving the addition of off-topic material to Thargor Orlando and not removing it, that somehow leaves you above the fray.  Nothing could be farther from the truth. To summarize, I've refuted your central argument, I've shown that you maintain a double standard, and I've repeatedly challenged you to show how anything I've cited is "fringe" in any way.  The most you can attempt is to claim that the statement "current safety testing fails to assess harm" is fringe, which at best is your unsupported opinion, and at worst is false.  Plant pathologist and former EPA regulator and adviser to the FDA, Doug Gurian-Sherman says "it's a myth to suggest that there's a scientific consensus supporting genetic engineering and agriculture" and his opinion is shared by many scientists. According to Gurian-Sherman's experience as a regulator, GMOs are not rigorously tested, there's no approval process, it's entirely voluntary, Monsanto controls the testing, and there have never been long term human testing to determine if harm has ever occurred.  There is nothing "fringe" about these factual claims. Viriditas (talk) 04:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Pamela Ronald.Jytdog (talk) 04:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice. :) We had an edit conflict there.  To reply a bit more at length.  I appreciate very much that you have not made this personal, but we don't seem to actually be exchanging ideas and you don't seem to be listening to me.  When I say "I don't care", I mean that I don't care.  I am a volunteer editor, like you, and it is absurd to try to foist responsibility on me for something I don't care about.  So I don't see a lot of point to continuing this discussion.   Again, have a good night.   Jytdog (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I note further, mr. angry viriditas, that you did not respond to what I said.   This article is about MaM -  Tami Canal and her 200,000 - 2,000,000 colleagues.  But you seem to be trying to trying to turn this article in to a duplicate of the genetically modified food controversies article.  That article is extremely long and detailed.   Why do you want to do make a duplicate? (real question!)   Let this article be about the March. I just reverted your effort to go to step 3 (argue with the consensus, as referenced in my original response to you in this thread) yet again.   All we need is step 1 (statements about what the protestors were protesting) and only rarely, step 2 (statement of the consensus view only if something within 1 is fringe).   Which was handled well enough, several edits back, before this latest spurt of nonsense.  Jytdog (talk) 04:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not angry. I believe I responded to your claims and I've shown that you maintain a hypocritical, double standard. You claim that some off-topic, out of date sources are OK while others are not—as long as they support your POV.  But that's not how the policies and guidelines work. I'm not trying to "turn" this article into anything.  What I'm trying to do is write the best article I can from the sources about the topic.  You've done just the opposite, and your reverts have shown that to be true.  You have two sets of standards for inclusion—automatic inclusion of any content that supports GMOs, whether it is an self-published opinion piece from ten years ago, or review article that cites ten year old data— it doesn't matter.  If it's off-topic it's OK because it promotes Monsanto, and you're fine with that.  But, I have shown in this thread that you're not OK with material written by science journalists or by other scientists who agree with the protesters or who show that the consensus is weakened to nonexistent due to "inconclusive or contradictory" scientific data. Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Please don't accuse me of bad faith editing. You are writing, following a line of reasoning based on some assumptions, and in that line, you happily find that you have "refuted" me or "shown" X. I have said that I don't share your assumptions, so your reasoning doesn't speak to what I am doing (and especially not to my intentions).   Why you think that it is rhetorically useful to keep claiming you have logically defeated me, is baffling to me.  Do you generally find that is an effective way to arrive at consensus?  (I am really curious about that!)   Martin Luther famously said "reason is a whore."  Reason starts with assumptions and heads off in a direction, both provided a priori by the reasoner - and reason can usually get you where you want to go.   So if you want to work with me, let's talk about assumptions and directions.    About direction, I made it clear that what I am trying to avoid is this turning the article into a debate over GMOs and thus going off-topic, which, in my view, is what your adding a counter-counter was doing (the step 3).  About assumptions,  I also made it clear that if there is a fringe statement in Step 1, a Step 2 - a counter-statement, clarifying the consensus -  is required.  I responded to your assumption that "source-date parity" is of paramount importance, when I wrote  that Step 2 predates the March, so sources predating the march are of course OK to support it.  You have responded to my assumption about complying with FRINGE policy by claiming that nothing is Fringe.  I appreciate that you did that - and I think this is where we really differ and where a real conversation could be fruitful.   You have not responded to my concern about direction, that by adding a Step 3, you are recapitulating the GM debate instead of writing about the March, other than to simply deny that you are trying to turn the article into anything.   Please explain to me how adding a Step 3 is not going off topic with respect to the MaM.   And again, I have added none of the content that you are objecting to.Jytdog (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a simple matter, but for some reason, you always make things difficult. To clarify (as is my wont) are you saying that the statement  is a fringe statement?  That is what you are saying, is it not? I would like a yes or no answer, please. Viriditas (talk) 02:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Just noticed this question. Sorry but it needs a long answer, because the question is badly framed.  In studying the toxicity of a substance, substances are tested in vitro and in animal models, in experiments that are carefully designed such that their results can be extrapolated to humans.  Once a substance is on the market, it is ~possible~ to do epidemiological studies in large populations, but these studies lack controls and the most that can come out of them are correlations, from which it is very dangerous to draw causative conclusions.  (famous example:  a survey of a large number of college students' health and behaviors finds that a strikingly high number of people who slept with their clothes on, also woke up with headaches.  Should we conclude that sleeping with one's clothes on, causes headaches?   No.  The real underlying link is probably late night drinking)  It is of course true that with some substances, like asbestos, case reports emerged that exposure to asbestos seemed to be correlated with mesothelioma, and subsequently big epidemiological surveys were done to test that specific hypothesis, and very very clear correlations emerged between asbestos and mesothelioma, and these correlations were clear enough, and hidden variables were analyzed, such that very high likelihood of causation was accepted and asbestos was banned.   Additionally, nobody has done a drug-like clinical trial of eating GM food, again because this is scientifically untractable.  First, the issue of the intervention itself -- the study drug is a very well characterized, single chemical;  we know exactly what we are giving, and we know that nobody in the control arm is getting it.  We have a very good "intervention" "no intervention" control.  Secondly, is the issue of hypothesis - what you are looking for.  In a Phase III trial of a drug, you give the drug to sick people, and give placebo to sick people, and you pre-define what you are looking for:  a) efficacy of the drug in treating the disease;  b) toxicity, based on (i) known risks from previous trials and (ii) a standard battery of other things (e.g. you always look at liver function and CV effects).   With GM food, with regard to the intervention,  a) "food" is a very poorly defined thing, and (b) it is very difficult if not impossible to control differences in the experimental arm vs the interventional arm.   We are left with an essentially epidemiological trial.  With GM food, with regard to hypothesis,  there is no well-defined hypothesized toxicity that you would look for.  So, both in terms of intervention and hypothesis there are big problems -- this is what I mean by untractable.     Going back now, again toxicology is based on in vitro work and animal studies.  The scientific consensus is that based on the tox studies that have been done,  which showed that the GM food that is currently marketed was substantially equivalent to its conventional counterparts.    Finally, no health problem with currently marketed GM food has emerged (think asbestos).   All that said, yes some in vitro and animal model studies have been published that claimed to show negative effects, that the authors and activists have claimed signal that currently marketed GM food is toxic to humans (if they were being more rigorous, and some are, they would say "currently marketed GM food has a high likelihood of being toxic to humans).   Yes these studies exist.  However, regulators worldwide and mainstream scientists have shown problems with these studies and most importantly, with the conclusions drawn them.    Scientific consensus, btw, does not mean "unanimity."  There are some scientists who, in good faith, reject human-caused global warming.  There are some scientists who have axes to grind and who not-in-good-faith, reject human-caused global warming.   Both kinds are outside the consensus.  Likewise, scientists and others who claim that currently marketed GM food is more toxic than conventional counterparts are way outside the scientific consensus;  those who claim there is a strong chance it is more toxic than conventional counterparts are outside the consensus but are at least speaking scientifically - both however lack any solid hypothesis as to why and in what way (where is the asbestos-like evidence?), and both are outside the consensus that currently marketed GM food is as risky as/as safe as food from conventional counterparts.  There you go. Jytdog (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, if someone has been exposed to asbestos, it is easy to track. If I buy food that isn't labeled as being of GMO origin, how can I track what I've eaten?  It's pretty convenient to deny consumers the right to know what they are eating and then claim it's safe because they can't track it. Viriditas (talk) 09:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I was responding to the question about "there is no significant scientific research on human health risks from GMOs" which I found difficult to respond to. If what you mean is clinical-trial-like testing, I tried to show that this is not feasible and is probably unethical. If what you mean is epidemiological studies in humans, I tried to show that doing them retrospectively or prospectively is also not very feasible and that there have been no reports of asbestos-like toxicity to spur them. If what you mean is standard tox studies in vitro and in vivo that are extrapolated to humans, I tried to show that these have been done. Jytdog (talk) 11:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


 * btw, I thought this version was pretty good at striking a reasonable compromise. That got blown up by a string of pretty aggressive edits that I think has kind of mangled things.Jytdog (talk) 04:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe you have had numerous opportunities to correct the problem, and I've raised it over and over and over again in this thread. Your response has been "I didn't make the edit, and I'm not going to remove the material, BUT I'll remove any material that questions Monsanto's claims." Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See above, especially my comment that it is absurd to hold a volunteer editor responsible for content he or she did not add and has explicitly said that he or she doesn't care about the details of.Jytdog (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That argument doesn't work when the content has been brought to your attention numerous times. I pointed out the hypocrisy I perceived and instead of helping to solve the problem, you dragged your feet and hemmed and hawed. For someone who doesn't "care" about this content, you seem to be intimately involved in every dotted I and crossed T, so you'll excuse me for not "buying" your explanation. Viriditas (talk) 03:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Undid revision 560456035 by Viriditas (talk) rv good faith edit -- an editorial printed before MaM is hardly a response

A13ean, if that is the case, could you explain why you left in the self-published 2003 "editorial" from the Society of Toxicology, the 2011 opinion piece from Pamela Ronald, and her 2011 review which cites evidence for a "consensus" from 2002? Is it my imagination, or are you and Jytdog enforcing a double standard, where old, pro-Monsanto editorials/opinion pieces are acceptable for inclusion, while old, neutral editorials and news stories are not? You can't have both. You either remove them all or you leave them all in the article. Which is it? The article still says "This scientific consensus has been asserted numerous times" and cites old, off-topic opinion pieces from 2003 and reviews from 2011. Why?

Let me summarize the consensus here:


 * 1) Sources, including editorials/opinion pieces, printed before the event occurred, should not be included.
 * 2) Sources that are not about the event nor in response to it should not be included.
 * 3) We should include sources (and their relevant content in said sources) only about the topic.

If this is correct, then I will plan on removing the off-topic, out of date content, starting with "This scientific consensus has been asserted numerous times..." since it refers to opinion sources and evidence from 2002, 2003, and 2011—before the event occurred. Viriditas (talk) 03:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The probable use of the leeway in that would make the problem worse. The problem is the trojan horse/ coatrack effect.  I.e. to start placing the arguments and talking points of one side of the GMO debate into this article on (essentially) the basis of "this is what the protestors said" and excluding the other side by saying "this article is about the protestors and the protestors didn't say that".  North8000 (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Editing part of a page does not imply that the editor agrees with everything in the resulting diff. If you're that concerned about something that ended up in the response section, the best thing to do it remove it yourself, and not accuse two other editors of hipocracy for failing to also remove it when they removed other problematic material.   I already made clear what I thought was a reasonable start at a balanced page.  I think the mainstream view should be mentioned briefly somewhere, as per this excellent quote at WP:FRINGE (emphasis mine):


 * We need to point out what the majority viewpoint is, which is represented in the statements issued by organizations like the WHO and AAAS, and also in quality academic review articles, such as those listed above. As I have suggested previously, the proper place for this is not in the response section.  What popped up on my news feed, was your addition of a letter to the editor, which shares some themes with MaM, but was published well before the event, and is thus not a response.  I reverted it as a no-brainer.  a13ean (talk) 19:20, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * this "fringe" statement is being misapplied, there is no undue weight issue here and this is not an article about a mainstream idea, it's about a bunch of people marching. Additionally, we need a secondary source that states this consensus matter in specific relation to the views expressed by particular members of the MAM group, it is synthesis otherwise - a matter already solved in the statement offered by the Hawaii Crop Improvement Association. It is also a mischaracterisation to present them as a group whose sole concern is the food safety matter when it isn't, there are a range of issues, most of which have zero to do with dismissing scientific consensus and reflect more so issues pertaining to public consensus and the role of the BT industry lobby in dictating policy. Semitransgenic  talk. 20:05, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Semi i just gotta say that you are making some really beautiful edits and statements lately. There is some good, tough, common sense in what you write above. Thank you.Jytdog (talk) 20:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I have to disagree with your first point based on my reading of the guidelines; the article is in part about a minority viewpoint, and we need to make clear what its relationship is with the majority viewpoint.  Again, all I have ever asked for on this front is a single line, somewhere in the article, that makes this clear in a brief, neutrally phrased way (and that we don't use quotes which make statements of facts, but I no longer have any complaints on this front now that the Dave Murphy source is summarized). Perhaps you and I could agree on the wording of a RfC to settle this, unless you think that a consensus will be made clear here.   It's entirely true that discussion here has focused on their claims re safety, but I think that's just because no one disagrees with the way their other issues are presented in the article (although if we use the quote from the Maui protestor, should make clear that Taylor is not actually the head of the FDA).  If you have concerns that these are not sufficiently reflected in the article, please feel free to make some changes.  a13ean (talk) 00:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A13ean, I've recently cited several current articles from both the journal Nature and Discover magazine that question the safety, efficacy and sustainability of GMOs. The only majority "consensus" that you and others appear to be citing appears to be based on old data from 2002 (it's now 2013) and from industry front groups.  This article should represent the issue fairly, with the most current research and data.  Interestingly, the majority of the claims made by the protesters are claims that can be verified in reliable secondary sources written by academics and journalists, including experts in their relevant fields.  To date, when asked to show me where the "fringe" is here, nobody has been able to give an answer. Could it be that you and others are misinformed on this topic? Viriditas (talk) 02:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction: you've failed to accept the answers, and accused us of being paid shills. Thargor Orlando (talk) 03:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you're familiar with the standing and extensively sourced line at Genetically modified food controversies: "There is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops pose no greater risk than conventional food." Nothing has changed about this, but if you wish to persist, we can take it to WP:RS/N and have the larger community evaluate those sources verses GS's essay or whatever other sources you have found. This article presents a minority view of the safety of GMO foods; per the fringe guidelines we also need to make clear what the majority view is.  a13ean (talk) 04:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Semitransgenic, the Hawaii Crop Improvement Association is a lobbying front group funded and run by Monsanto employees. It is not a neutral, independent organization nor is it able to accurately state the "consensus". It is explicitly, in their own words, an advocacy group that works to promote Monsanto's line of products.  That is not exactly a reliable source.  If we are going to cite an industry front group, should we also be citing the OCA and the UCS? Viriditas (talk) 02:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of this, that's why I added (it was missing) "a Hawaiian agricultural biotechnology trade association," and added a link to their website, readers can make up their own minds on the nature of the source. Semitransgenic  talk. 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

More deletions

 * removed ", the site of the largest experimental crop trials in the United States and the largest producer of genetically engineered seed corn in the world" which is not in the source. really true of Hawaii?? seems unlikely

Jytdog, I am once again speechless at your continuing deletion campaign based on your baseless ruminatinos. First of all, why would this information need to be in the source? Second of all, on what basis are you questioning its veracity? You say it seems unlikely, but you don't explain why you personally believe it is unlikely. In the future, please use the talk page to ruminate about your concerns, not the edit summaries. Now, given the fact that Monsanto Hawaii is the site of the largest experimental crop trials in the United States and the largest producer of genetically engineered seed corn in the world, do you think that might be relevant to this topic, and go towards explaining why Monsanto Hawaii released a longer statement than Monsanto HQ itself? And if you didn't know that, have you ever thought of doing the slightest bit of research to confirm it? Viriditas (talk) 04:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I temporarily removed it since it confused people, but I will be adding it back with clarification. Viriditas (talk) 04:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hawaii has the largest number of experimental biotech crop trials in the country
 * Hawaii is the world’s leading producer of genetically engineered (GE) seed corn
 * I've left it out for now. Viriditas (talk) 08:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Those are great sources; I was ignorant on this point. Thanks.Jytdog (talk) 12:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of new quote from Monsanto CEO
Viriditas added the following today: "In the runup to the protests, Monsanto's CEO Hugh Grant told Bloomberg News that critics of GMOs are social media elitists who fail to recognize the global food needs of a growing, hungry population.(ref)Murray, Ryan (8 June 2013). "Backlash growing against GMOs". Daily Inter Lake. McClatchy-Tribune Regional News. Retrieved 18 June 2013; Milner, Conan (21 May 2013). "Protests Against Monsanto in 55 Countries". The Epoch Times. Retrieved 18 June 2013; For the original Bloomberg interview, see: Kaskey, Jack (15 May 2013). "Monsanto Sees 'Elitism' in Social Media-Fanned Opposition". Bloomberg. Retrieved 18 June 2013.(ref/) "

Not sure what is up with the reference overkill - the original bloomberg article http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-15/monsanto-sees-elitism-in-social-media-fanned-opposition.html is all that is needed. If you read that article, it is dated May 16 and does not mention MaM. So the preface, "in the runup to the protests" is OR/SYN. The article discusses the recent petitions to the USDA over new products that Dow and Monsanto are trying to bring to market. That is the context. And the whole quote is as follows: "Those who can pay more for organic food want to block others from choosing more affordable options, Grant said. “There is this strange kind of reverse elitism: If I’m going to do this, then everything else shouldn’t exist,” Grant said at Monsanto’s St. Louis headquarters yesterday. “There is space in the supermarket shelf for all of us.”"  This is entirely different from the way the quote is presented in the deleted text. So, it is not about MaM, and it is distorted. Doesn't belong on both counts. Jytdog (talk) 02:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no "reference overkill" here, nor is there any OR/SYN, nor is the content unacceptable. There are three sources in use, two about the march and a third which is used to reference the original interview.  The first citation, The Daily Inter Lake (8 June) a news story distributed by the McClatchy-Tribune Regional News, is about a March Against Monsanto that took place in Kalispell, Montana.  It notes that "Hugh Grant, Monsanto’s chairman, president and chief executive officer, made comments to Bloomberg News in May that those opposed to GMOs are not using data to support their claims, just emotional pleas and a 'strange kind of reverse elitism."


 * Those comments were also covered by a pre-march news story about the March Against Monsanto in The Epoch Times (21 May), which read: "In an email, Monsanto spokesman Tom Helscher said the company had no statement regarding the upcoming protest. However, Monsanto CEO Hugh Grant recently characterized GMO critics as social media elitists who overlook the pressing food problems of the less fortunate. 'There is this strange kind of reverse elitism: If I’m going to do this, then everything else shouldn’t exist,' Grant told Bloomberg in a May 14 interview. 'There is space in the supermarket shelf for all of us.'"


 * The third source is the original Bloomberg source, "Monsanto Sees ‘Elitism’ in Social Media-Fanned Opposition" (15 May), that both The Daily Inter Lake and The Epoch Times refer to here. The "social media-fanned opposition" is clearly the March Against Monsanto campaign, which had been in the works for months.  Your claim that this is not the actual context is clearly wrong.  It is not "the recent petitions to the USDA over new products" that is the context.  In any case, even if you dispute that is the context, The Daily Inter Lake and The Epoch Times both cite it in articles about the march, and it is acceptable to use it here to show that Monsanto was commenting about the social media campaign just weeks before the march occurred.  Need I remind you, the active social media campaign against Monsanto at that time was called "March Against Monsanto".


 * To conclude, your argument for excluding this material is unsupported and it is discussed in two different articles about the protest, and in the original context of the social media campaign, "March Against Monsanto". Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree this is appropriate content for this article. It should be replaced.  petrarchan47  t  c   05:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that the Bloomberg piece would be fine for one of the other GMO articles but this one is about this protest movement rather than protest in general. I can see where some would say that the Monsanto remarks are related to social media and that this movement has relied on social media, but even still if we don't keep a strict limit on what we allow in this article it will turn into a GMO debate--which we don't want here. Gandydancer (talk) 10:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * All GA and FA articles on similar topics like these cover extensive background information beyond the event itself; Stonewall riots is a good example, there are many more. I'm not sure where you latched on to the erroneous notion that this article can't include such information, or the equally bizarre idea that the "GMO debate" is somehow separate and distinct from this topic, but both ideas are flat wrong and unsupported by our guidelines, our policies, and our GA/FA articles.  There is ample space to expand upon the position of Monsanto itself on this topic, and the "GMO deabte" as you call it, is embedded in the demands of the protesters and is thematically linked to the protest movement itself.  All of these things will be covered as the article expands and improves. Viriditas (talk) 03:49, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * are you actually comparing the MaM "movement" to the gay rights movement? Jytdog (talk) 01:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Stating "in the runup to the protests" in WIkipedia's voice is indeed OR/SYN because it leads the reader to think that he said this about the MaM protests which he did not. Stating that news reports about the protests cited this in discussing the protests is not SYN.   Taking the “strange kind of reverse elitism” bit out of context does make it just "strange" - including the whole quote allows the reader to see what Grant was talking about.  Compromising - I have re-instated, using the whole quote and its context, and attributing the connecting of the quote to the marches, to the news sources that did that. Jytdog (talk) 10:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you are mistaken. Stating "in the runup to the protests" is in no way, shape, or form classified as "OR/SYN", so I suggest you familiarize yourself with those topics.  Describing and/or paraphrasing the relevant chronology is supported by the sources, and there is not interpretation at work.  As for what Monsanto's CEO said, it does not lead the reader to think anything other than what Monsanto's CEO said—a comment about the social media opponents.  Who were these social media opponents at the time?  Well, if one does actual research (something you have failed to do so far, instead opting for the delete, delete, delete, delete model of "improvement") one finds that the only social media opposition at the time was the "March Against Monsanto", which was widely advertised for weeks and months before the event, and the two secondary sources demonstrates this is true.  Therefore, there is nothing "out of context" as you assert, and the context is intact. Viriditas (talk) 03:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've cut down on the size of the quotes from the Monsanto CEO, removed the newspaper-style attribution, and also taken out the photo. Otherwise we're just falling into the trap of using this article as a coattrack for pro- and anti-modified-seed viewpoints. His full opinion is still there, but in summary fashion. There is no point whatever is having the photo, and it is excessive and over-weights the quote. Coretheapple (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Though I have not looked at the edit. I agree with your intention and reasoning. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I have no problem leaving the picture out; i didn't add it and don't care. i would be fine with completely excluding the quote, but if we are going to use it, a) it must be made clear that he wasn't talking about the protests; and b) we have to include his modifier, "a strange kind of reverse elitism" which is less rude and stark than "reverse elitism" (also, one doesn't split genitives!) Jytdog (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe the inclusion of the photo is entirely inline with our guidelines, policies, and best practices involving articles of similar scope, and I will be arguing for retaining the photo.  Aside from "I don't like it", I don't see any valid arguments for exclusion.  The notion that this article is "falling in the trap" of being a coatrack for pro and anti viewpoints is absurd, as this section is about the response from Monsanto, nobody else.  Furthermore, I expect to expand and improve upon the scope of Mosnanto's position towards the protest and the protesters, and I would invite anyone to give me a good reason why I should not.  Again, the GMO "debate", "controversy", or whatever you want to call it, is part of this topic, is found within the sources in use, and will be adquately represented.  Anything less than that is a violation of NPOV. Viriditas (talk) 04:01, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * If you can find reliable sources that provide Monsanto's actual reaction to the actual March, knock your self out! I cannot imagine that the company said much outside what was in the AP article and what the Hawaii rep said. Will be interesting to see what you find.  btw with the new section title it is all the more important to make it clear that Grant's comments were not a response to the March. fine to say that other sources connected it, but it is not part of "monsanto's response" to the March.Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. The problem with this article has been excessive material on the underlying issue, mainly of the pro-Monsanto variety. I think that Monsanto's response needs to be mentioned but should not be overemphasized. Coretheapple (talk) 19:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Removed non-WP:RS source
I've removed a reference to the non-WP:RS source Stephen Lendman. Frizzmaz (talk) 13:11, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I got that, but the reason I asked you to comment here was so that you could explain why the author is not a RS. I haven't had time to look into this, so I would appreciate you sharing your expertise. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Stephen Lendman is a minor blogger. One quote in one newspaper mentioning his posting on a non-notable, non-RS site festooned with an impressive sounding name (Centre for Research on Globalisation) is not enough to establish him as WP:RS. If what he's saying is true, then it should be possible to find it in actual WP:RS sources. Frizzmaz (talk) 16:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He's not connected to the Centre for Research on Globalisation, but Michel Chossudovsky is, and the organization is more commonly known as "Global Reserach" based on their site name. Although I've never heard of any of these people before, it appears to be a reliable source classified as an alternative "independent research and media organization based in Montreal" that has won awards and is listed in major alternative news indexes.  The material you removed attributed to this source—"Demonstrators urged supporters to buy only organic products and to boycott Monsanto-owned companies" is not controversial nor questionable. Based on the above, I understand why you removed it, but I'm not convinced it's unreliable or inappropriate. Viriditas (talk) 09:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And, again, if the material is not controversial, then there should be no problem supporting it using WP:RS sources. A quick Google search shows that Stephen Lendman continues to publish on Centre for Research on Globalisation, an organization that would clearly fail WP:RS. The article I removed also specifically linked Lendman to CRG. If CRG is WP:RS it should be easy for you to establish with citations. However, CRG has had its Wiki entry deleted, recreated, and deleted again. See e.g. [] for the WP view on CRG. Frizzmaz (talk) 12:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that link, it is very helpful. Unfortunately, all it shows is a poorly attended AfD from 2011 which really doesn't help determine reliability; it only determines whether editors have done enough research on the subject to meet [{WP:BEFORE]].  But, I agree with you, if it is a notable organization, it should be easy to establish, so the ball is in my court.  Thanks again. Viriditas (talk) 23:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

US bias?
The article makes contradictory (and weakly-sourced) claims that this is an International "grass roots" movement, and that it is a movement with a single Californian founder started in 2013. Looking at the literature, it seems outside the US "marches against Monsanto" were taking place well before 2013 (see the Haiti link just added). Is this article taking a blinkered/parochial view? Alexbrn talk 06:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are completely different marches you refer to and I'm working on a version that will refer to those precious marches. I don't see anything contradictory or weakly sourced about this being an international grass roots movement founded by a single person. Can you describe the problem as you see it? Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The Monsanto article has a section on protests etc. This march is referenced in it;  this article to the best of my knowledge refers to The March Against Monsanto - the event (and possibly movement, we will see!) that occurred in May.  There of course have been other protests.   Are you all proposing some larger article that is "Protests against GMOs" or something that would subsume this one? Jytdog (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody is proposing that, and the AfD determined this subject is notable as a standalone topic. The OP appears to be confused about this protest. Viriditas (talk) 22:59, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * My understanding of the article upon my coming here was that the article was not just about the actual May march, but the broader movement. Thargor Orlando (talk) 01:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see where that confusion comes from, however, this article is only about the "March Against Monsanto" movement established in Feb. 2013. I am working on adding additional background information to clarify this, but only if the sources cover it.  To summarize, there is no consensus to merge this article into any other article at this time, and it is still being expanded and improved. Viriditas (talk) 01:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, taking the above into account my problem then is that "the" March Against Monsanto was an event not a movement, and that is how the sources seem to refer to it. Even the "official page" seems to support this: "After the incredible success of the grass-roots 'March Against Monsanto' last Saturday ... ". Now, the organizers seem keen to stretch the event into a movement ("This just the beginning"), but Wikipedia shouldn't necessarily be buying into that but should be reflecting the sources. As to "grass roots" this is laregely a PR term and I'm not sure its use is justified. Alexbrn talk 04:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Without looking at the sources, it's considered both a movement (established by Canal and spread around the world via social media) and an event. As for "grass roots", that refers to what is commonly defined as "ordinary people regarded as the main body of an organization's membership", which is what we have here.  Please keep in mind, this is vastly different than the Tea Party movement, which uses the term "grass roots" for PR, as they are not run by ordinary people, but by corporate front groups, commonly referred to as "banksters and billionaires" in the press.  To summarize, 1) it's considered both a movement and an event, but further clarification on this point is needed per your comments, and 2) it's defined as a real grass roots movement, unlike other movements which use the term for PR as you correctly observed. Viriditas (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "both a movement and an event" ? ... that's kind of confusing, and also not what the article says. What is the source for this dual definition? And what is the source for "grass roots" (such a loaded term it is probably better not used as part of initial definition). Right now, this article's opening reads like an uncritical reflection of MaM organizers' own PR and aspirations. Alexbrn talk 04:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do you find it confusing? The sources are pretty clear that the MAM movement led to the event around the world, and that this movement is planning other, upcoming events. I've already explained why the grass roots term is appropriate here and is not a PR term. Viriditas (talk) 06:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you do a news search, the overwhelming majority of sources call MaM an "event", a "rally", a "protest", etc. If the organizers are trying, off the back of the success of this, to stretch it into a "movement" then WP should not be following them, but sticking with what the sources say (or neutrally reporting the organizers' ambitions). The first mention of "movement" from a source (currently citation number 2) actually refers to the "Anti-Monsanto Project" movement, not MaM as a movement. And, do we have an RS for "grass roots" ... ?
 * The sources substantiate that this was an international grass roots movement that culminated in the one day event. We can get into specific sources and wording, but at this point, I want to better understand your point.  Are you arguing that this was not an international grass roots movement? If so, what was it? Viriditas (talk) 07:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, taking the first descriptions from the excerpts on a first page of a GN search: So (and I think this sample is representative) most sources seem to consider the notable thing the protests (i.e. the event), and call MaM some thing that happened on a certain day. One wouldn't know that from reading the opening sentence here. Also "grass roots" doesn't appear to mentioned in sources: this is a PR term chosen by the MaM organizers and unless there's a RS for it it needs to go (it seems to me the real "grass roots" protests were happening outside the USA starting years ago; this in contrast appears to be a top-down effort with an identifiable founder). Alexbrn talk 07:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A protest (Osceola Sun)
 * "March Against Monsanto world wide, in May" (Redwood Times)
 * An event (Maui Weekly)
 * A rally (Vancouver Observer)
 * "Having succeeded with the March Against Monsanto in May ... The March Against Monsanto was very successful" (Blog for Iowa)
 * A movement (Ring of Fire Radio)
 * As someone who has performed extensive research on this topic, I don't think the sources you present are a representative sample. First of all, we don't write articles based on the  "first page of a GN search", so please don't do that again.  I do think that most reliable sources refer to this topic as an international grassroots movement that engaged in a protest.  In any case, before I show the sources that support this wording, I would like an answer to my question: if the March Against Monsanto was not a grass roots movement, then what was it?  A few definitions for your benefit:


 * grass roots: The most basic level of an activity or organization: "a campaign conducted at the grass roots"; Ordinary people regarded as the main body of an organization's membership.


 * international protest movement or social movement: transnational networks of actors that define their causes as global and organize protest campaigns that involve more than one state


 * Is there anything about these definitions that do not apply to this topic? If not, why not?  If your objection is simply based on the sources, then I will easily present the sources that support this wording.  If your objection lies outside the sources, then please clarify.  At this point, your objection isn't very clear. I think most rational people would agree that this subject falls under the category of an international grass roots protest movement without any objection. Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On the GN search, I didn't advocate basing the article on it - but from my own research across library services and Google, what I listed is a representative sample: here was some evidence. There appears to be no coveage of MaM as an ongoing movement - it seems this is a non-notable aspect of this subject area and so it is POV to have it so promiment in the article. The thing that is notable here is the series of protests around the world.
 * On "grass roots" the point is not what we think is a good term, it is what reliable sources state. Since you've already acknowledged "grass roots" is wording that has a PR aspect to it, this is something we should be strict about for reasons of neutrality. Alexbrn talk 08:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, what you listed is not a representative sample, nor could it be, as we don't use Google searches to write articles. Your assertions that 1) the protest is not grass roots, and 2) that it is not a "movement" are both in error.  We have many reliable sources indicating explicitly that this is an international grass roots movement.  And, I did not acknowledge that the term "grass roots" as used here has a PR aspect to it, I acknolwedged that non-grass roots movements have used the term erroneously.  You still have not answered my question so I will expand upon it: if this isn't an international grass roots  movement, then what is it?  And, if you dispute the sources, which sources cast doubt on the idea that it is an international grass roots movement?  Again, most rational people will agree (and the sources will reflect) that the protests 1) took place globally, and that 2) ordinary people, not corporate interests, are regarded as the main members of the movement, and that 3) this movement consists of "transnational networks of actors that define their causes as global and organize protest campaigns that involve more than one state" (country).  If you dispute any of this at all, please explain your dispute. Viriditas (talk) 08:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I never advocated using Google searches "to write articles" - that is a complete straw man. I have no interest in what MaM is, I am interested in what reliable sources say it is. By and large they seem to say it something like "an event which took place around the world on 25 May 2013 in protest at Monsanto's business activities"; that, I think, is a rather more neutral and better-sourced description than what's in the article currently, which seems to have a certain POV.
 * I just gave you four sources that support the current wording; there are many more. Again, if this isn't an international grass roots movement, then what is it?  This wording is neutral and reliably sourced. You challenged this wording by doing a Google search. That's just not how it works.  If you really want to challenge this, forget about the sources for just a moment and challenge it conceptually.  You began to do this when you questioned the use of the term "grass roots", but I believe the definition I gave you supports the wording.  At this point you appear to be saying that the term shouldn't be used because it isn't neutral, but in this case, is that true? Viriditas (talk) 09:10, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, so there is no RS support for the term "grass roots".
 * Of your four sources, the first describes MaM as "an event that was held in other locations around the country and internationally", the second describes it both as "protests" and as a "movement", the third states "The March against Monsanto was notable in several key respect" (i.e. places it in the past as an event), and the fourth gives a breakdown, over several hours of the march. This rather strengthens the case that my Google News results were representative. Third-parties sources are, on the whole, describing MaM as an event which happened, not as a movement which is ongoing. The article here needs to reflect that. Alexbrn talk 09:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, there are more than enough sources supporting the term "grass roots", and I provided you with some, starting with a sample of local, domestic, and international coverage. The first source is an example of a local protest covered by a local paper, the The Bangor Daily News. The local journalist describes the protest as a "grassroots activist event".  The second source is a link to the domestic wire story by the AP which describes the "'March Against Monsanto' movement" and illustrates its grass roots origins. The third and fourth sources are examples of international coverage by RT, which call the movement a "grass roots anti-GMO protest", a "global protest organized by the 'March Against Monsanto' movement", and "an international movement". Viriditas (talk) 09:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! So, a better opening sentence might be "The March Against Monsanto is a grassroots event which took place around the world on 25 May 2013 in protest at Monsanto's business activities." ? Alexbrn talk 09:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a global grassroots movement (as sourced by the AP and RT). What exactly is the problem you have with the current wording? Please be brief in your reply. Viriditas (talk) 10:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No sources says "grassroots movement" -- this is your WP:SYNTHESIS isn't it? A few says it is/was a movement, and some says the events were grassroot; but nearly all sources refer to MaM as an event or a protest (which took place on a certain day), and not as a "movement". We need to go with the weight of the sourcing here. My proposed wording does that, I think. Alexbrn talk 10:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not synthesis at all. The protest movement is grassroots and global, as such it is a global grassroots movement.  Both RT sources call it a "grass roots anti-GMO protest" and a movement, and so does AP.  How could this possibly be synthesis in any way?  I'm going to ask you the same question again which you refused to answer: if this isn't a grassroots movement, then what is it?  Is there a source that challenges the claim that this is a movement? Once again, grass roots refers to "the most basic level of an activity or organization, "ordinary people regarded as the main body of an organization's membership."  The sources make that clear.  And the movement, in this case is a "transnational networks of actors that define their causes as global and organize protest campaigns that involve more than one state (country)".  Exactly what are you challenging here? The sources describe it as grassroots and a movement.  There is nothing being synthesized here.  You seem to be arguing that it is either grassroots or a movement, but I've already explained this is not true.  There is nothing contradictory here, nothing synthesized, and everything is appropriately defined.  Again, if it is not a global grassroots movement, then what is it?  It doesn't even matter, because the sources in this article already call it a grassroots movement. Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry: "sources describe it as grassroots and a movement" <-- could you help me and and lists the sources which do this for me? ... The first RT piece is an op-ed, so really shouldn't be used as news, and needs to be attributed; in any case it does not call MaM both a movement and grassroots. The second RT piece doesn't mention "grassroots". To repeat, I am interested in having a verifiable opening, not debating this in the abstract. If you can't give a source then we need to correct the WP:SYNTHESIS. My proposed wording is easily verifiable BTW. Alexbrn talk 10:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's already sourced in the article many times, with The Wellingtonian. It also doesn't require a source in the lead section and it is completely non-controversial.  Why are you having difficulty understanding that it is a grassroots movement?  In any case, I've already refuted your statement that "no source says grassroots movement", so I suggest you drop the stick. Unless you can explain why it isn't a global grassroots movement, then I think we are at the end of this discussion.  The sources are clear.  There are numerous sources supporting this in the current article, and dozens more that aren't in it. For example, New River Valley reporter Ken Heineck of WSLS-TV called it an "international grassroots movement". Viriditas (talk) 10:42, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK thanks! My general "difficulty" is when I read about MaM in a variety of news sources it seems to be about an event, but when I come to WP it seems to be about a movement. Maybe I'm reading the wrong sources! Alexbrn talk 11:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My take on this is that MaM was an event, organized online, the organizers of which have expressed some aspiration to turn into movement. I think "movement", in common understanding, is something that is sustained over time, i.e the Civil Rights Movement.  Or like the Arab Spring.    One can talk already about an anti-GMO movement that is loosely organized and has indeed been sustained over time, in which MaM is an event.  MaM may prove to be a movement (or an organizer within the larger anti-GMO movement), but it seems to me too early to label it as such.... Jytdog (talk) 11:42, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to the usable definitions of global protest/social movements, this is classified appropriately as a movement. Viriditas (talk) 11:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

here are some definitions: I think all of those include the notion that activities are sustained over time. Which is why it seems too early to say whether MaM itself is or is not a movement within the larger anti-GMO movement, which has been around a long time. I am not saying that MaM is not a movement; I'm just saying there is insufficient information to call it that now. How about if we say something like "March Against Monsanto was a worldwide protest held on May 25, 2013 against Monsanto corporation's business practices, organized via social media. It was part of the larger anti-GMO movement and its organizers aspired to hold further events and actions under the March Against Monsanto banner." or something like that? We can update that over time if/when future events or actions take place. Jytdog (talk) 12:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * miriam webster:  b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end 
 * oxford: 2 [often with modifier] a group of people working together to advance their shared political, social, or artistic ideas: the labor movement
 * wikitionary: A trend in various fields or social categories, a group of people with a common ideology who try together to achieve certain general goals
 * Yes, that sounds good. Alexbrn talk 12:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I completely disagree. Those aren't the definitions used by sociologists and others who study protest movements.  Consulting your dictionary is not helpful here. Your assertion that it is too early to call it a movement flies in the face of the sources and the specialized definitions used by people who study these movements.  For only one example of this treatment in the literature, see this definition.  I'm afraid that unless we have a source that argues against it being a movement, we have to accept that that the sources and the specialized definitions used to classify protest movement support it.  To summarize, the sources call it a movement, people who study protest movements classify it as a movement, and we call it a movement. What editors think is irrelevant. Viriditas (talk) 12:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To be clear, a minority of sources call it a "movement"; most call it an event/rally/protest. Alexbrn talk 14:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Viriditas, could you please clarify - what are the sources in which "people who study protest movements (actually) classify it as a movement"? with "it" being the MaM in particular (and there must be more than one since you say "people")? It cannot be the google book since it was written in 2006.  That book section points at the anti-globalization movement, which in 2006 was validly called a movement as there had already been sustained action over time; fits the dictionary definition very well.  Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC) (fix typo Jytdog (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC))


 * Alexbrn, a majority of sources refer to MAM as a movement, not a minority. And, once again, a movement and an event or rally or protest are not mutually exclusive.  I'm getting the sense that you are moving the goalposts with every reply.  First you said it was weakly sourced and contradictory, and I showed that it wasn't.  Then you said no good sources used this exact wording, and I showed that they did. Now you are saying it's only a minority of sources and you are falling back to the old "contradictory" line again with the argument for mutual exclusivity, which isn't true.  So, I need to ask you Alexbrn, at what point will you stop moving the goalposts?  Because every time I ask you for a criteria for inclusion to meet, you come back with "no true Scotsman would call this a movement".  The original issues have been dealt with.  It's not biased, the article isn't taking a parochial view, and it's well established that this is an international grass roots movement.  I've asked you to provide a counterexample, and I have not received any replies. In other words, if this is not an international grass roots movement, then what is it?  You've intimated that it's a protest or event or rally, not a movement.  But again, they aren't contradictory.  A movement is composed of protests, and I made this clear with a definition from the anti-globalization movement which applies to this movement as well.  I'm not sure why Jytdog is misreading that source. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Viriditas &mdash; I'm just trying to work towards improving the article. You've made some good points and answered some of my queries (thank you for your patience) - but I'm really not interested in these meta-discussions you keep trying to enter into. My difficulty is that the sources don't seem quite in line with your insistence that MaM is first &amp; foremost a "movement", as Jytdog is also suggested. I was going to disengage from this discussion, but Jytdog's expression of similar doubts to my own has made me think again there is an issue to be explored here. Alexbrn talk 11:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You continue to claim that the sources don't establish that it is a "movement" when in fact they do. Even the AP source says it is a movement.  When asked why it isn't a movement, you're unable to answer.  Jytdog's doubts are based on his personal beliefs about what constitutes a movement and what doesn't, which is fine if he can back it up, but so far he has not been able to here.  On the other hand, this movement meets the working definition in use. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Viriditas.... right, so there are no people who study protest movements who actually classify MAM as a movement. You are applying that definition.  The other thing I wanted to say, was that you kind of make my point, when you say that  "A movement is composed of protests" - that is "protests" - multiple ones - a series of events that unfold over time.   A single protest doth not a movement make, as it were.  We may be seeing the start of one... we just don't know yet.   I don't intend to try to delete "movement" from the article, but I wouldn't revert a deletion either.  This is kind of like the number of protestors issue - there was no serious reporting on the MaM (the event);  several reports just used the numbers the protestors gave, and several reports used MaM's description of itself as a movement.  Jytdog (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The MAM movement began in February, and led to organized groups around the world using social media to coordinate a series of global protests in May. This is a movement.  Alexbrn did make an interesting point at the beginning of the discussion, where he implied that this movement is part of a larger movement that has been going on for many years.  This includes the "Millions Against Monsanto" movement and the "Occupy Monsanto" movement among others.  So even if you deny, for the sake of the argument, that MAM is a "movement" in and of itself, you will have to admit that it is part of a larger anti-GMO movement. Therefore, I believe I have met your criteria for longevity. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it was me who said that MaM was an event in the larger anti-GMO movement. :) Jytdog (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No argument here. Viriditas (talk) 03:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Far too promotional.
I have read the article for the first time an it looks like promotional material for the MAM movement, failing to distinguish exaggerated claims made by the organisers from generally accepted facts. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide glaring examples that we can address, otherwise, there is nothing actionable about your opinion and that leaves us with nothing to address. Viriditas (talk) 08:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To start with have in the lead, 'On May 25, 2013, an estimated 200,000 to 2 million supporters participated in marches and rallies; organizers claimed that marches took place in 436 cities around the world'. The 2 million and 436 city figures are estimates by the organisers. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, we've previously discussed this. First of all, most, if not all protest estimates originate with organisers.  Sometimes, depending on the protest movement, you'll have competing numbers released by government sources. Second of all, the numbers were widely reported by RS.  I'm not seeing anything "promotional" here at all.  The largest coverage came from the Associated Press which said "Two million people marched in protest against seed giant Monsanto Co. in hundreds of rallies across the U.S. and in over 50 other countries on Saturday."  What exactly is wrong with the lead?  Nothing I can see. Viriditas (talk) 08:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You say, 'most, if not all protest estimates originate with organisers' that is no doubt correct but it does not mean that we must state the, invariably exaggerated, claims of organisers as fact in WP. We need independent reliable sources.  In the body of the article we could possible say something like, 'The organisers claimed ...' but to put such figure without is source, in the lead is misleading. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It already says that, using the lowest numbers available (CTV) with the highest according to organizers (AP). Feel free to find the wording you prefer. Viriditas (talk) 09:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As written, the presentation of those numbers looked odd to me too. Would it help to attribute the low-end and high-end numbers more clearly? Something like: "On May 25, 2013, an estimated 200,000 (according to CTVcite) to 2 million (according to the organizerscite) supporters participated in marches and rallies". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No contentual concerns on my end, but from a purely stylistic POV I'm biased against using parentheticals in the lead as I find them distracting. Viriditas (talk) 08:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Giving the organisers' 'estimate' without qualification in the lead is misleading, even with the lower figure. It is undoubtedly an intentionally exaggerated figure to promote the march.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you done the math? How do you know it is intentionally exaggerated? And how is it "promotional"? Viriditas (talk) 09:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Quote wars
There are far too many quotes in the article, making it into a kind of debating forum rather than an encyclopedia article. In any case the article should be about the march not about GM food. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article is about a march about GM food. Viriditas (talk) 09:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly! We have the articles Genetically_modified_crops and Genetically modified food controversieswhich are the correct place for discussion of the subject of GM food.  This article is being used as forum for anti-GM and pro-GM views.  That is not the purpose of WP.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's best if the article sticks to it's topic.  Having it become a coatrack for anti and pro GMO talking points is not a good thing, even if such does not clearly violate policy. North8000 (talk) 15:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Martin and North 8000--this article should stick to the protest and not become a GMO debate article. Gandydancer (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can anyone point me to quotes that detract away from the topic of this article and turn it into a "debating forum"? This subject, the March Against Monsanto, is about an international protest movement that has specific objections, requirements, and demands about GMOs and those things are entirely relevant to this article, just as the discussion about GLBT rights are germane to our article on Stonewall riots, and just like a discussion of the rights of minorities are appropriate for the Civil rights movement article.  The discussion about GMOs, how they are used by society, their impact on farmers, consumer rights and labeling laws, the influence of GMO companies on governments, and other issues, are all part of this subject and the sources are quite clear on this point. Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest WP:Summary style for guidance about how much verbiage to devote here to the background issues. It's good to give readers enough context to understand the subject of this page, in part by providing internal links, but it's unhelpful to duplicate stuff that already can be found on other pages, which is where the coatrack concerns arise. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you provide examples of current concerns so I can address them? Please remember this article was written by many different editors.  I'm not sure what part of the article you have a concern with here. Viriditas (talk) 23:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Edit conflict, responding only to posts prior to the last 2: Here the "debating forum" would be via efforts to game in talking points for one's view on GMO's and game out talking points for the opposite view. The detriments would be a POV'd article, an article that didn't focus on it's topic, and lots of grief and wasted time on the maneuvers. Right now I think that the article is borderline-OK on the fist two points,on the edge of a slippery slope of being not so. And the third detriment certainly has already occurred. So an effort to minimize that is useful. North8000 (talk) 00:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide specific examples from the current article that I can address. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your question doesn't make sense in view of my previous post. What are you asking me to find that I said was a problem? North8000 (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever is "borderline-OK on the first two points" etc. Please point me in the direction of anything that needs to be addressed. Viriditas (talk) 00:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What I meant by "borderline OK" is that there is a greater than optimum amount of talking points for both sides of the GMO debate, but it is somewhat balanced (tipped a bit towards the anti-GMO talking points)  So non-ideal but OK. North8000 (talk) 00:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Viriditas, I think replacing quotes with more encyclopedic statements will improve the article. No one seems to have objected to the two that I have changed so I will continue. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's strange, since I repeatedly asked you to raise it on the talk page first and you did not. Viriditas (talk) 09:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have continued, but not finished, replacing direct quotes. I hope others will agree that it makes the page look more like an encyclopedia article and less like a shouting match.  I think the comments could be toned down even more but I intend to replace all the quotes first.  I have also clarified the participant figures in the body of the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's odd, as I have repeatedly asked you to discuss it, first. Viriditas (talk) 09:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not odd at all, it is how WP works. Do you not agree that my wording is more encyclopedic?  All the actual pro and con arguments are still there, using very similar wording to the quotes but it reads more like an encyclopedia and less like a tabloid or street argument.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's completely odd because I was repeatedly asking in this thread "what is wrong with the quotes" and failed to receive any reply to my queries. Now you tell me that you have changed the quotes because you objected to them.  Now at least I have recieved an answer, albeit in a [{WP:BOLD]] form. Viriditas (talk) 10:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I said right from the start that quotations make the article look unencyclopedic. The quotations are more prominent than the running text and make the article look more like a debate on the pros and cons of GE food than an article about the march.  If you look at my changes you will see that I have not removed any of the arguments made by either side but just restated them in indirect speech. Do you have any objection to this and, if so, what?  What do others think? Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And I think it's odd that we have editors arguing about what is or isn't odd. Anyway, in the hopes that I can be responsive to Viriditas' very reasonable request that editors be specific about particular text changes, I've looked carefully at the quote-->summary edits that Martin Hogbin has made in the last day or so, and I agree with Martin that they are an improvement. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope that I don't need to later eat my own words (too many irons in the fire right now!), but a quick look at Martin's edits seems to be an improvement to me as well. Gandydancer (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Gandydancer, it is good to see that we agree about something. My concern is always that WP does not become a wp:soapbox or wp:coatrack for disenchanted individuals or pressure groups. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you provide evidence that there is soapboxing or coatracking in this article? As far as I can tell, you are whitewashing quotes from Monsanto's CEO and downplaying concerns expressed by the movement organizer. Viriditas (talk) 03:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Quotes removed
I have now replaced all the quotes with indirect speech apart from the 'Media reception' section which is more contentious (and tagged). I have stuck closely to the original words but I think both sides could still do with a little toning down. What is the general opinion on this? Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your paraphrasing of Canal's words in the social media section is inaccurate and omitted the significant concerns about Monsanto's monopoly over the food supply which the protesters highlight as one of their primary issues. Your paraphrase of Hugh Grant's quote removed the attribution to Bloomberg and didn't even accurately paraphrase the quote where he accussed those who protested against GMO's as "elitists", even after it was discussed by multiple secondary sources. And, you called CTV an "independent source" instead of  attributing the source by name. So, lots of problems with your edits. Viriditas (talk) 03:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone back and looked a second time at those edits, to examine Viriditas's concerns one-by-one.
 * About Canal in the social media section: I think that Viriditas is correct about the issue of monopoly over the food supply. That can still be addressed through paraphrase, but it should be added back.
 * About Grant: It doesn't strike me as a big deal that Bloomberg isn't mentioned, since the source is still cited. I'm kind of neutral about how important or not it is to discuss the accusations of elitism, and I don't see it as something where there is a right and a wrong way to present it.
 * About CTV: Overall, I think Martin's edit was an improvement, because it differentiated clearly between estimates by the organizers, and estimates by sources that were not associated with the organizers. It's important that we make that distinction, given how much the numbers differ. There's a case to be made for saying, instead, "One independent source, CTV, estimated...", as it's more precise.
 * --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Tryptofish, thanks for your analysis. I was just about to attend to your first point when I saw that Viriditas had added a whole new swathe of emotive NPOV quotes. There is a consensus that quotes are not desirable here, especially ones that seem only to be promoting a POV. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Media reception.
This page has been tagged and I agree that it seems to present a bizarre conspiracy theory that all the world's media somehow conspired to not mention the march. What should we do now? Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The idea that the corporate media protect the interests of the corporate class is hardly a "bizarre conspiracy theory"—it's an common model used by those who study the media. In this case, the topic of media coverage is obviously relevant to an event seeking to bring attention to an issue. groupuscule (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * oy va voy.  This is one of the most damaging ideas to our democracy.   Fox News de-legitimizes main stream media (MSM) from the right wing; sloppy generalization of Chomsky de-legitimizes it from the left.  We are left with nothing in the center, no legitimate fourth estate;  everybody firmly locked into their bubbles and no longer even seeing the same world.  Lovely.  Sloppy generalization of Manufacturing Consent is bizarre conspiracy theory.  There are other ways to explain the lack of coverage of MaM in MSM that have nothing to do with "protecting corporate interests." Jytdog (talk) 13:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, like it was rather boring, badly supported, and unnewsworthy, for example. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hobgin, are you aware that there is an entire sub-discipline of media studies involving scholars who perform and publish content analyses of media coverage, and that none of them have reached your personal, pet conclusions? Because of "the consolidation of media companies and their acquisition by multinational corporations" there are "additional commercial pressures on the media.  Producers and editors now have to satisfy not only their historical audiences and sponsors, but stockholders as well...As globalization takes hold, an increasing number of environmental issues take on international implications, and the transnational corporations have deep interests in how they are treated...The corporate influence not only circumscribes the kinds of issues that may be taken up by the media, but it urges that they be framed in a less critical way."  Think tanks and foundations promote the corporate interests of companies like Monsanto by flooding the media with their agenda bullet points.  "Many of their own research reports became the subjects of newspaper "news pieces" and they "gain access to the public through radio and TV talk shows, for which they make their representatives freely available." There are hundreds of books and papers on this subject. Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I can understand the idea that right wing US media might choose to ignore the subject, in fact had they done so but other media sources covered the march, that would have been a good argument for a conspiracy but the article has statements like, 'A global protest involving millions of people must be newsworthy...Monsanto produces genetically modified foods that are in our food supply — foods we eat every day — and yet somehow protests against this aren't covered?". If the facts are that only some US media ignored the march then that is what we should say.  If, on the other hand, the claim is that the world media, including European public service media such as the BBC ignored the march because of pressure from Monsanto, then we are looking at something akin to the moon landing conspiracy theory. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a classic fringe position (how extreme is a matter of debate) and so should not be unduly prominent - if indeed it is notable, or strongly-sourced, enough to be mentioned at all. I think not, and have deleted the paragraph in question. With this solution, can we remove the tag now? Alexbrn talk 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the last two paragraphs should go too. They are both vague and unsubstantiated opinions expressed by local US media sources about an allegedly global campaign. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me suggest keeping just one sentence from those two paragraphs, about Thom Hartmann, and deleting all the rest. Just the opening sentence of that paragraph, not the quote that follows it. Make that sentence the last sentence of what would then be the single paragraph of that section (now the first paragraph). That way, we at least give one sentence to the opinion that coverage was minimal, but without giving that opinion undue weight, and I agree with the comments above that it's a fringe opinion. Hartmann is notable enough that we have a page on him, so a one-sentence summary seems appropriate to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I cannot accpt even that. He says, 'but two million protesters aren't enough to risk upsetting the corporate masters'. That give grosly undue weight to one persons speculation as to why there was not more news coverage, as opposed to the much more likely reason that it was just not that interesting. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence I was talking about keeping is: "Radio host Thom Hartmann, in an opinion piece called "So Much For The Liberal Media", claimed that the media had largely ignored the protests." It doesn't include what you quoted there. Maybe you thought I meant a different sentence? The fact that his reasoning doesn't convince you doesn't matter, and it isn't UNDUE. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, this article is about a protest movement, not a GMO debate. Many people are as or even more concerned about Monsanto's business practices than they are about the possible untoward affects from GMOs.  This movement is a protest of Monsanto and there's nothing fringe about that.  Some editors here may believe that Hartmann's opinion is not correct but as editors it's not our place to censor the opinion of notable figures any more than we should censor the Monsanto spokesperson's opinion. Gandydancer (talk) 20:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * agreed, gandy, there is nothing fringe about protesting Monsanto. Some reasons may be fringe (e.g. GMOS cause cancer) but in general protesting big ag is not fringe. Jytdog (talk) 20:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was advocating for including Hartmann's opinion, just not at undue length. The issue being discussed isn't whether criticism of the company is fringe, but rather, whether claims that the news media, collectively, are working to suppress coverage of the movement are fringe. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A claim without any substantial evidence that, 'the news media, collectively, are working to suppress coverage of the movement', is not fringe but completely beyond the fringe. You seem to be suggesting that we mention the view of a person who believes in a conspiracy theory on a par with the moon landing conspiracy theories. It is not even remotely credible. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you see what I said to you a few lines above? All I'm talking about is that he "claimed that the media had largely ignored the protests". Nothing about conspiracy theories, only that there exists a line of thought that there wasn't a lot of coverage. I'm agreeing with you that the conspiracy theories are fringe. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed to death already. Nobody is saying the media is working together to suppress coverage.  But, Monsanto has been involved in suppressing media coverage in the past (see Steve Wilson, Jane Akre, Bovine_somatotropin, WTVT, Monsanto) with the help of corporate media outlets. Viriditas (talk) 02:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm new to this page, and I'm sympathetic to how it feels when a topic has already been discussed. What I was reacting to, and I think this is reasonable, was what was currently on the page, not anything elsewhere. And what was on the page was rather a lot of text by not-very-noteworthy sources that were saying, as quoted on the page, that there was some kind of problem with the major news media ignoring the protest. If we are going to say on this page that Monsanto suppressed news coverage of this particular protest, we need reliable sourcing that this actually took place, not speculation by commentators that it might have taken place, per WP:BLPGROUP. If there is information on other pages about actual suppression of this sort, but not specifically in relation to the March, then the correct way to indicate that is by a "see also" hatnote at the top of the section, per WP:Summary style, and I'd be fine with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry but this is absurd. Is the article saying that media coverage was suppressed or is it not? Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Monsanto was not a party to that litigation and was not found to have done anything wrong. WTVT was not found to have done anything wrong, news-wise.   Yes Monsanto did send a threatening letter to Fox.  But WTVT said that "it did not bend to Monsanto's letter and wanted to air a hard-hitting story with a number of statements critical of Monsanto."  But they did not want outright lies in the story. The judge found that "Each time the station asked Wilson and Akre to provide supporting documentation for statements in the story or to make changes in the content of the story, the reporters accused the station of attempting to distort the story to favor the manufacturer of BGH."  So this is a poor example. Jytdog (talk) 12:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My suggestion earlier was to have a sentence similar to this: "The march was covered by X, Y, Z, A, B. Some media critics, however, criticized the media for not covering the march."  This is an inartful way of putting it, but this way the criticism and the truth both get coverage here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed over and over and over again, notably at Talk:March_Against_Monsanto/Archive_2 and Talk:March_Against_Monsanto/Archive_1. Every point you've made has been addressed.  There is nothing whatsoever "fringe" about these views, nor can cite anything from WP:FRINGE that applies to this content. Viriditas (talk) 02:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The argument is less that it's a fringe viewpoint and more that it's not true. It's why the tag is undue, not fringe. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Martin, this has been discussed in many different threads already. There is no "bizarre conspiracy theory" here at all.  Can you name the major media outlets that covered the protests in the United States on May 25?  There were only two, the Associated Press and the Los Angeles Times. Viriditas (talk) 03:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Which shows that the march was essentially not newsworthy. Or are you trying to tell me that there was some conspiracy to prevent all the US media from mentioning the subject?  Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that there were only two justifies a short sentence on the page saying that those were the only two. It doesn't justify material speculating on why there were only two. If there were sourcing demonstrating why there were only two (for example, other news sources saying why they chose not to cover it), then that would be appropriate to cite, but speculation does not belong here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would rephrase your first sentence to say, 'The fact that there were only two justifies a short sentence on the page saying that those were the two'. The last only has been omitted because it implies that there ought to have been more.  I have no at all objection to saying simply that the march was covered by two media sources. That would not require its own section.  It is absurd to have speculation by two minor media sources over an alleged conspiracy involving all the major media. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that it's not true. We can list off plenty of major media sources that covered the march, either by the commonly understood (ran a story) or by the definition some use here (did their own reporting).  It's why there's opposition to the amount of space we're giving to the claim that it wasn't covered. Thargor Orlando (talk)
 * I'm trying to understand: were there just two in the US, but multiple others in countries other than the US? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There were many in the US, and even more if you count international sources. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There were massive protests in the United States and Europe. And they were not covered by large corporate media outlets.  Your claim that there were "many" in the US is based on what, exactly?  The only large media outlets that covered the international protests in the U.S. were the AP and the Los Angeles Times.  CNN covered it three days later.  RT was the only outlet that covered it in Europe.  In other words, virtually no media coverage, just a singular AP story that was distributed via wire.  In any case, what policy or guideline are you using to argue for the removal of this material? This topic has been discussed already many times.  Thargor has now evolved his argument by dropping the fringe claim and arguing that we can't include it because, according to him, "it's not true".  Except, Thargor has been asked, over and over again, to provide a reliable source that disagrees with the opinions in question.  He can't provide these sources, and he can't challenge its weight, so that leaves no challenge at all. Viriditas (talk) 10:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I won't beat a dead horse on this, you are incorrect as I have shown in previous discussions on the matter. I do not care to remove the data, I have proposed an alternative that lists highlights of the coverage as well as notes the minority, untrue viewpoint that some believe it was ignored. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thargor, what would be your proposal? Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please correct me if I misunderstand, but Thargor is talking about US sources that Viriditas distinguishes from major news sources, so there might be lots of "sources" in the US, but only two US sources if one leaves out all the minor ones. Correct? If I'm right about that, then the thing to do is to say that there were two major US sources, name them, and leave out any theories about why there were not more, unless we have reliable sourcing (and we apparently don't have it) in which the other sources explain why they didn't cover it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)